The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 3 of the Hell's Vengeance Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
I expect some level of uproar over Torpin: A paladin lying without immediately losing all class abilities.
I haven't thoroughly read it yet, but having an enemy with Regeneration (good weapons and spells) against a party that is likely unable to provide these is kinda mean.
A heresy devil actually has fast healing, not regeneration; so at least it stays down once they do enough damage. If the party loots the cavalry picket and the hippogriff knights, as well as thoroughly (and cautiously) exploring the keep, they should find some items that can help get through the DR, too.
So, where does the party find Handout #5? Was it supposed to be with Korva Ferrini in Q14?
No offense, and please don't take this to be harsh, but the Map of the Whisperwood on page twenty six is awful.
- the bland computer generated woods and roads.
- the gigantic encounter letters, as well as other disproportionate words drown and clutter everything up.
- the incredibly thick black regional borders only exacerbate the lettering issues.
I hope this isn't a sign of how you'll be doing maps from here on out.
I noticed something fun about Fort Arego.
There are no actual Paladins there. So outside the Archons, everyone there is potentially manipulated into believing you're the reinforcements sent, thus providing meat sponges for infiltrating the basement. After getting through all the evil, they'll be easy to mop up at the gate. :-)
Honestly, the reviews don't give this adventure the credit it deserves. Bravo!
Edit: the Archons could be a problem with this actually.
Senior Developer
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So about Fex
** spoiler omitted **
So just really asking how does or has he gotten around not having to do that? Is it just because he's a noble?
It's exactly because he's a noble. He was born into that position, so he automatically has political authority as a representative of House Thrune. The PCs don't have the advantage of noble bloodlines, so they have to "work their way up" through the Thrune organization the old-fashioned way. And as they get higher in House Thrune, they become more of a threat to Fex, since their loyalty is no longer to him personally, but to House Thrune over him.
** spoiler omitted **I expect some level of uproar over Torpin: A paladin lying without immediately losing all class abilities.
I haven't thoroughly read it yet, but having an enemy with Regeneration (good weapons and spells) against a party that is likely unable to provide these is kinda mean.A heresy devil actually has fast healing, not regeneration; so at least it stays down once they do enough damage. If the party loots the cavalry picket and the hippogriff knights, as well as thoroughly (and cautiously) exploring the keep, they should find some items that can help get through the DR, too.
Huh... I didn't read Fex's stat-block thoroughly.
Anyway, the oils of bless weapon and the +1 holy crossbow bolt work just fine against the regeneration.
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A) First a short question: Is Visperthul the devils true name?
B) I'll admit I've only just got the book yesterday and haven't had time to fully read everything. However, during my initial perusal I came away with a pretty serious critique-
The module at its core is about Fex’s betrayal and yet the actual betrayal is done so poorly it begs the question of why even present it as a possible surprise?
There are so many clues, and specifically the way in which the final confrontation plays out at Fort Arego seems set up to make the PC’s assume Fex is against them.
Specifically, why are all the devils and guards in the fort being inherently hostile to the PC’s? Isn’t that a massive tell? The PC’s are forced to wade through a sea of Devil guards just to arrive at the Inferno Gate, a location Fex said he did not know, and see not only their benefactor but a massive Heresy devil waiting patiently for them. How did Fex get there? Why is this devil now friendly? Why were they not attacked? Etc etc.
Even without all the very strong clues littered throughout the module, just the staging of the final encounter should be enough to give the PC’s pause.
Two of the clues that lead toward Fex's betrayal are very heavy handed:
-Starting with the INT 15 thief guildmaster who happens to possess detect magic but didn't notice the massive aura on the pendent he's wearing nor did he consider looking into its value? And wait, not only that but he actually possesses all the information about the object in a language he can read. He still seems happy with treating it solely as a "pretty trinket" and parting with the 98k magic pendant for only 2k. Its also a little surprising that Fex kept notes of such a nature just laying about for any thief to snatch up or that a thief would grab such notes without having a specific interest in them.
-OR the more egregious clue. In which two errant devils attack clearly superior opponents BEFORE completing their intended mission of delivering apparently TWO copies of the same letter for their master. This is despite their ability to greater teleport and fulfill said task almost instantly...
Additionally, said letter happens to contain the names of both parties, why? Along with a string of information that doesn't even need to be said. The letter as written lacks any necessary or useful information for Fex (with perhaps an exception for the siege). It’s clear purpose though is to give the PC's the heads up. No thought required.
Now barring massive failures on the PC's part, the module intends for the PC's to have knowledge of Fex's betrayal going into the final encounter. This is fine. My issue is that we don't need to dumb down our enemies to accomplish this type of forwarning/forshadowing. INT 15 guildmasters should be played as such. INT 22 devils shouldn't be writing two copies of a letter that doesn't matter and use the principal parties names within. Fex as someone who has been planning this for some time should have been a good bit less obvious in his betrayal. Or if he’s going to be that obvious he should of been better prepared (summoned Erinyes should already be there #action-economy-matters.)
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Or am I wrong/ missing something?
Ok. If I had to distill my above response into a shorter question it would relate to this idea of the Devils "supposed" to being out of control.
Why is that the assumption? Does Fex explain it somewhere that I glossed over? Does it make sense considering the lawful nature of Devils? Demons get out of control but Devils are more structured in how and why they do things. The PC's could believe a rival Hell faction is controlling the situation but there is definitely someone/thing in control.
Given that idea of control, its EXTREMELY suspicious then when the PC's finally step into The Pit only to see Fex and a giant Heresy Devil waiting patiently for them unharmed.
What is stopping the PC's from concluding the very plain truth? What is obscuring Fex's control of the situation and thus betrayal in this last scene?
Or better yet, if you were running Fex as DM- What would you say to the PC's initially to assuage their concerns or explain the situation?
I don't have the book.
What does the Thrune Trusted Agent feat do?
I'm looking for alternatives to murdering unicorns, that's a no go for us.
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I don't have the book.
What does the Thrune Trusted Agent feat do?
We just got there in our game:
Thrune Trusted Agent Feat-Tactical feat: As long as another Trusted Agent is within 30', you get a +1 profane bonus on reflex and will saves. 1/day you can use the aid another action(aiding another Trusted Agent), and give a +4 instead of +2.
I'm pretty sure I got that right. Others can correct me if I'm wrong on anything, or if I left something out.
My group finished last week the "Wrath of Thrune" and we are moving on to "The Inferno Gate". When I started to prepare book 3, I've found it kinda irritating that the PCs are supposed to travel first to Senara, without anything story-progressing happening along the way. It just seems dead air and random encounters.
I've been thinking about how to solve that problem and make the travelling more meaningful, so here is what I've come up with: The Order of the Pike sends a monthly report to the major towns around the Whisperwood, containing warnings about the most recent dangers and the bounties attached for eliminating these dangers. This way the PCs already have some information and leads they can follow along the way. Also if the PCs gather enough of the pieces for the ritual on their way to Senara, I could level them up when they arrive there. How does that sound? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Anyone have any idea how to pronounce Phlegmatic Talisman? I'm thinking it's Fleg-matic, as the combo "Ph" is usually an "F" sound. Any one else pronounce it like that?
Flem-atic
Gratz and zr122 - how did the Whisperwood part go with your groups in the end? Did you expand the journey out at all?
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Currently in this book. I'm very excited because our first two books flew by quickly as the party ran through everything. However, they've been exploring the Whisperwood the whole time so far so it should be good.
I am interested if anyone has potential advice though. I know the core plot of this section is Fex's betrayal. However, one of my players took the Nemesis story feat and I chose to have Fex be his designated nemesis (any later in the AP seems like that player wasted the feat slot). I'm not sure if I should leave their interaction straightforward as in Fex actually wants the PC to succeed so he has him as a sacrifice and will therefore be taking out his nemesis. Or should Fex be trying to undermine the party's success as a whole as justification for his traitorous end? I'm excited that this might be an interesting twist on the plot, I'm just worried it might throw off the dynamic of the book.
Currently in this book. I'm very excited because our first two books flew by quickly as the party ran through everything.
Lucky you for that. I run for a group of 4 players and we're almost ready for the final part of book 2 and they've had two almost TPKs so far. The party's wizard is the only one who survived both TPKs, since the player wasn't there for either session and I think it's kind of jerky to kill a character when the player isn't there. First TPK was at the end of book 1 and the 2nd one was at Heardship's Hearth in book 2. Hound Archons are the bane of this group.
I think the plot works well if Fex is 100% serious about the group succeeding, even though he's plotting their deaths. Makes it more believable for the characters and very fitting for Fex's character.
Gratz and zr122 - how did the Whisperwood part go with your groups in the end? Did you expand the journey out at all?
I actually shortened this book quite a bit. I'm not a fan of random encounters for the sake of it.
My group just got done with this book, but some things i took away from it.
1 it makes it easy for necromancers to make a large army from things for my group it was dire bears that they kept getting on the random encounter table.
2 you never know what the party will try at the orphanage, mine has a witch that used its prehensile hair hex to kidnap one of them, his name is joey and he has to go around following the party or die...
3 because of the big battle/siege near the end, if you want the party to have easy sacrifices to get a hold of the portal just let them find some knights that are stable at negative hp.
4 if you have necromancers a good place to purge the number of undead they have is at that siege.
just what i have seen from my groups play of the book.
Ghost town!
Has anyone ran the encounter(s) in the Black Dagger's hideout? I'm reviewing now, and actually a bit worried that they will bluff/diplomacy/generally weasel their way out of as much confrontation as they can before Tilo...which is a shame cause I'm looking forward to tossing Ghast Retch flasks at them!
It really just comes down to what you and your group enjoy, but frankly, there's always plenty of mandatory combat in APs. When my players try to talk through an encounter rather than fight it, not only is it more interesting and more enjoyable, it also means they're invested in the world you're putting before them, rather than just rolling attack dice at it.
You should just take out the diplomacy aspects altogether if you'd rather just run it as a combat gauntlet. It was pretty easy for my group to beat these encounters. I find fights with a lot of 'rogue' elements tend to be pretty easy for a informed group to handle.
I feel like the Blessing of Unicorns encounter is designed rather poorly. The main thing unicorns can do is charge, yet the entire map prohibits charging because of the water and undergrowth. Has anyone changed the terrain in this encounter to allow the unicorns to do their thing?
My group will most likely find the Unicorns next session. They've just dispatched the two Azatas. I've also wondered why the Unicorn encounter seems a bit too easy, other than actually cornering them before they teleport. It occurred to me driving home that perhaps this is supposed to be an easy Slaughter Them! mission, cause killing and hacking up beautiful sacred unicorns is already pretty dang nasty and evil. That, and my players are still struggling with the 'hard' angel fights (no aligned weapons, no way to fly (although they did find the wand of fly), suffering from low will saves, etc) so I think they might appreciate an easy (and evil) fight murder for a change.
I may add something to surprise them though. Maybe have a wandering druid drop in to help or some fairies, something like that. Or, yeah, if Unicorn Charges are dangerous enough, I might make sure to give them the room to exploit that.
Ran into a bit of conflicting information. In TIG, it says the the Lictor of the Order of the Pike is Lucan Orcelani, a LE ranger 7/Hellknight 4 and is the brother of the Hellknight you save in Book 2. In Path of the Hellknight, it says the Lictor is Lesheir “The Spear” Remsaine, a LG cavalier 5/Hellknight 8. I've handled this as 'Lucan is the Paralictor and the Lictor is away slaying monsters', but even that seems flimsy in my eyes.
How would other players handle it and why is there contradictory information in the first place?
I wouldn't even worry about it. I don't have the Path of the Hellknight. None of my players do, and even when I pitched the whole "Ya know, the fighter might want to look into joining the Hellknights" pitch from book 2, no interest. So....yeah, for my group, that small contradiction will never be known.
I would roll with whatever idea the PC's have to gain the pieces they need.
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So we just finished Inferno Gate. It played out a little odd for us.
1) Party met Visperthul at the portal and informed him of Fex's betrayal.
2) Visperthul offered them a deal: defeat/capture fex and he will be sacrificed in their place, Visperthul gets the phlegmantic talisman, and will close portal for the party and bother cheliax no more.
3) Party is losing the fight w fex (many failed saves & a couple poor choices), wizard teleports to Egorian, all but the ranger are down.
4) Ranger jumps through portal to hell with phlegmantic talisman and offers entire party to swear service to Visperthul if he will send his servants to help them defeat fex. Visperthul agrees, heals ranger to full and sends him through portal back to Fort Arego with two bone devils. Fex is defeated.
5) Party's wizard, (a lawyer-interrogation specialist enchanter) negotiates with Thrune, telling them the portal is open, visperthul is in control, fex has betrayed the country & thrune and party is now the servant of 2 masters. Wizard offers plan to be double agents, pretending to fully serve visperthul while actually still serving thrune and rooting out his full operation in cheliax citing "surely fex is not the only thrune he turned traitor..." Thrune agrees.
6) Party is about to be publicly shamed as failures. Samurai stripped of her rank of "Commander" and made ronin (public rotten fruit throwing will occur). Cleric of Asmodeus will pretend to be fallen and now serve Moloch (amulet of non-detect with some false auras).
7) Now I'm writing a huge side bit about Moloch/Visperthul's operation in Cheliax. The party will donnie-brasco visperthul's people and eventually take out an important person in Egorian, after travelling a lot and working their way up the spy network's ranks.
Challenges:
Moloch v Asmodeus, aren't they allies? Why would Visperthul turn Fex against Thrune in the first place? It's evil but is it lawful? Grappling w this.
Moloch & Visperthul: Why does Moloch, the military commander of Hell, have such a fat conniving slob as Visperthul working for him? What does he gain by subverting Asmodeus other servants (thrune) in cheliax while the country is already struggling with a rebellion? What/why how? Halp!
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Hello fellow GMs,
My group and I are on the cusp of starting this part of the adventure. If all goes well, we'll wrap up book #2 May 4th and start book #3 on May 18th.
I have a question about the "Hexploration" portion of this adventure.
In Kingmaker, the hexes are 12miles across, and for forested terrain on horseback, exploring a hex takes 1 day.
In Hell's Vengeance, these hexes are 25 miles across, are, for all intents and purposes, 4 times the area, and thus by comparison take 4 days to explore.
The road-based travel across these 25-mile hexes is mathematically correct, with it taking, by my estimate 6 days on horse-back to get from Longacre to Senara (the book says it takes 5.5)
How have other GMs worked with the Hexploration phase of this adventure? How many days does it take for the party to find someting of interest/value? And did you run a random encounter on each of those days as indicated by the adventure itself?
I suspect my players will get very tired of constant combat while they search for the things they need to search for.
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You know what is best for your group. If you want to remove the Hexsploration aspect the module wouldn't be worse off for it.
I did a random encounter roll every 12 hours. I also gave out bonus XP for fully exploring a hex and some random bits of treasure or minor encounters based off of the random encounter chart.
Simplified Hexsploration for Path1e & D&D 5e
Thats what I use when I feel like systematizing it.
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Thanks @Kujaku.
I'm not sure how my group is going to handle this to be honest.
I want them to experience the dregs of having to explore the land (especially where then amed locations are), but on the same token, with our large group size (5-6 PCs + 1 NPCs played by a person), I worry about pacing.
What I'm thinking about doing is while they're on the roads, one encounter per day with a random roll to figure out in what hour it occurs.
While they're actively searching through hexes, make a full exploration of the hex take 4 in-game days, but only have them actually get one encounter with a random roll to figure out what day, and another random roll to figure out what hour.
This way, the characters get to be subjected to the realities of exporing 25-mile hexes (400-500 square miles), but not subject the party to ennui of 4 combats per hex.
I did see in a google search I just did, that there's maybe some new rules in Ultimate Wilderness. So I'm going to check that out real quick.
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Give the PC's the option to skip encounters. Just because the PC's see the enemy doesn't mean they have to encounter them, or even be able to. They could see remnants of a battle, or find the leftovers of a devil attack.
Make the encounters they do fight in interesting though. Try and add different terrain elements or weather effects. I also use 5e lair actions sometimes depending on what they encounter.