The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 5 of the Hell's Vengeance Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
Nedowyn certainly has a low cut silky Mithral Breastplate. :-)
Nedowyn certainly has a low cut silky Mithral Breastplate. :-)
The thigh highs make lots of sense, though.
No one doubts the guy has fashion sense, and he can certainly pull off the silky Mithral Breastplate. :-)
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Just wondering if anyone changed "The Fist of Iomedae" from being another monk? I'm not sure what to change her to, but there are so many monks in APs...
Ok, no answers to that one then! How about this...
Does anyone have any good stories or ideas from Barleybridge? I'd like to drop in some interesting situations and wondered if this had gone particularly well for anyone?
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We posed as census recorders/draft board members sent by Thrune to Barleybridge to deal with the glorious reclamation, brought them in one at a time to "inspect them for how suitable they were draft material wise" and dealt with them one by one.
How did you run Citadel Dinyar? We've got 2 2'x'2 battle mats and one 3'x'4 and even double sided I don't think that will be enough space. just looks like suuch a headache
I tend to draw out the maps on graph paper and my players stick the different bits down using blu-tac. Then if there's a room they have an encounter in they draw it out on a battle mat.
Regarding Parnoneryx's use of vital strike, don't forget that PCs can make a FORT save for half damage against the corrupting touch attack. PCs with a decent (+15-ish) save for this level will fail it more than half the time even still, but it does blunt this somewhat.
Regarding what qualifies as a "corridor" in St. Ilnea's, only the corridor leading from B1 to B2 contains the fog/webs from Guards and Wards. With respect to that spell, the rest of the complex is otherwise normal with the exception of the suggestion effect on the fake fountain and the various arcane locks.
The more troublesome thing, at least for the party I ran through it, were the Forbiddance effects in each major area. The inability for them to dimension door or summon critters altered combats dramatically, and Ambrihama proved a serious challenge that found them teetering at the edge of disaster.
So. Regarding Parnoneryx and Vital Strike... how?
Corrupting Touch (Su): All ghosts gain this incorporeal touch attack. By passing part of its incorporeal body through a foe's body as a standard action, the ghost inflicts a number of d6s equal to its CR in damage. This damage is not negative energy—it manifests in the form of physical wounds and aches from supernatural aging. Creatures immune to magical aging are immune to this damage, but otherwise the damage bypasses all forms of damage reduction. A Fortitude save halves the damage inflicted.
Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.
So Corrupting Touch is a special standard action and should not be able to be used with Vital Strike. It shouldn't even be able to be used as part of a full attack as is listed in the statblock. It seems like a pretty big rules error - especially when you can let something throw out 34d6 attacks with a DC 28 Fort save for half.
Edit: I'm not arguing that NPCs can't break the rules mind... or that the huge attack isn't inappropriate for a nasty boss. But I am stating that if you break the rules, you should be clear about it in the statblock for prospective GMs.
I will argue against your point, since Vital Strike says that it can be used as part of an Attack action, which is exactly the action you use with Corrupting Touch, despite them both being described as "special."
As quoted, Corrupting Touch describes it as a standard action, not using the wording of it being a generic natural attack. This wording is also the sort of thing that excludes a lot of actions from working with Vital Strike.
One could make the argument that it is an incorporeal touch attack that follows normal natural attack rules, but then there shouldn't be need for the text on "as a standard action", implying that it is a special action type.
I will agree that it isn't the most well telegraphed fight either. It comes out of nowhere with an enemy type that tends to be much stronger without preparation. While it certainly creates a rough fight and a strong climax boss encounter, it does seem like bad design mechanically.
...also, I am pretty sure we ruled the bite attack was corporeal, as an aside. I think that was clear from the statblock, but now I am less sure.
I'm going to be a little bit of a pedant here, so please forgive me. Ultimately, Pathfinder rules will never be perfectly clear and what the GM decides on is how their particular game goes. That being said, I do feel that this is an interesting case for the editorial side.
But let's try to address some of these questions!
"Corrupting Touch is a touch attack." By RAW, I'm not so sure this is clear. They describe it as "gaining an incorporeal touch attack", but then go on to have further language on it specifically being a Standard Action. For direct comparison, the language on Shadow and Wraith is quite different and does not include this exclusionary language.
A shadow’s touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
Creatures hit by a wraith’s touch attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points. The save DC is Charisma-based.
This would imply that the exclusionary language on Corrupting Touch is special. I see your case regarding "it is a touch attack", but requiring a "standard action" which is not stated as an attack action might exclude it from Vital Strike. Note other Ghost abilities use the same language as Wraith/Shadow as well. You can see this question also pop up with regards to "can a Ghost take an AoO with Corrupting Touch."
I would also note this is clearly outside the RAW expectations of Vital Strike anyway. It multiplies weapon damage. A natural attack counts as a weapon (though that is not entirely clear half the time), so we can assume it counts. But it almost certainly was not designed for the case where something has a d6 per CR scaling damage. A greataxe improves by 6.5 damage on a hit. This improves by 59 damage on a hit.
"The bite is incorporeal." Now that I re-read it, it does not explicitly say that the Ghostly Fangs ability is corporeal. However, the high accuracy (matching the corporeal weapon) coupled with dealing Force damage (which specifically is called out as being equally effective on physical and incorporeal things alike) implies to me that it should not be a touch attack. One could further note that I can't think of an example of a touch attack that does not include touch in the attack block, though I might be just failing to recollect.
I'm probably just failing my Perception check, but does Citadel Dinyar have a front door? I know the PC's are expected to get in through the secret entrance in the dungeons, but I looked at the map and can't see where normal visitors and Hellknights get in.
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I'm probably just failing my Perception check, but does Citadel Dinyar have a front door? I know the PC's are expected to get in through the secret entrance in the dungeons, but I looked at the map and can't see where normal visitors and Hellknights get in.
Yes although it took me a while to find it as well (must be a high DC). It is located off A17 on the right hand side of the map. The actual door is somewhat obscured by the walk way that runs over it (I think it is a double iron portcullis style deal) but there should be a door there that connects to the drawbridge tower and then to a path down the mountain I would assume. This castle has a very weird layout since almost everything is outside and very little interior hallways, in fact if I recall correctly (A24 and A25) the kitchen does not even have a door. My party used disintegrate A LOT to "sneak" around so I decided that there was a skeleton of a dead cook that had clawed at a bricked over doorway there, ala cask of amontillado style.
I'm probably just failing my Perception check, but does Citadel Dinyar have a front door? I know the PC's are expected to get in through the secret entrance in the dungeons, but I looked at the map and can't see where normal visitors and Hellknights get in.Yes although it took me a while to find it as well (must be a high DC). It is located off A17 on the right hand side of the map. The actual door is somewhat obscured by the walk way that runs over it (I think it is a double iron portcullis style deal) but there should be a door there that connects to the drawbridge tower and then to a path down the mountain I would assume. This castle has a very weird layout since almost everything is outside and very little interior hallways, in fact if I recall correctly (A24 and A25) the kitchen does not even have a door. My party used disintegrate A LOT to "sneak" around so I decided that there was a skeleton of a dead cook that had clawed at a bricked over doorway there, ala cask of amontillado style.
Aha! Thanks for pointing that out, I appreciate it. It was actually pretty common for irl medieval castles to not have a HUGE keep compared to the size of the bailey, but yeah Citadel Dinyar is pretty fantastic (in both the good and fantasy way, of course).
So, we've reached the Barleybridge point. My players went through it but now they are … unhappy. Not the players but the PCs. It has been building up since they reached Egorian. The nationalist village boy come Hellknight is having certain issues some of which I did not know how to address. The party is evil but not cruel. Its a mix of "I will do anything for my country" and "I will do anything for myself". So... issues...
- Competency. Is everyone in Cheliax this incompetent? From the first day we stepped into Egorian -and waited 3 hours at the line- this does not seem like the well organized country our characters believe in. (They are all residents of Longacre so they had build a certain admiration for the Glorious Cheliax in their heads)
- Nobles. We have not met a single noble that doesn't look like an incompetent, rude, idiotic waste of space. Sethic and Levisvia were squabbling over crap. Bramilla was an idiot. The elf was worse. Who rules this country? How is it ruled if these guys are in charge?
- Levisvia. If the Queen needs a sacrifice is she unable to inspire a single person to give their life for our glorious nation? Our PCs would if asked. Dragging unwilling people to be sacrificed seems like the worst way to do it.
- Barleybridge. Why couldn't the Queen ask 100 people to die for their country or even promise them hefty compensations for their family? (Note here that they never found out about the Caiden Cailean worshippers in the village). Are we murdering our own now? Isn't murder illegal? Isn't Cheliax a lawful country? Why are the authorities illegally murdering people?
- Queen. We don't like the Queen (Here I probably played her wrong / understood wrong.) She doesn't seem like she cares about her subjects. She expresses no feelings over the sacrifices, especially Barleybridge. She shows no remorse. She looks like a petulant kid not a capable individual. Maybe we should attack the Queen -for the glory of Cheliax- even if we die trying. (I have NO IDEA what to do if that's their endgame)
-Cheliax in general. What are the armies of Cheliax doing? Why does it seem that we're the ones handling everything? Why did we have to go to Barleybridge and murder peasants? Why couldn't Dotari or someone else do this crap job? Why does it seem that everyone is sitting on their ---? (Again here I believe I failed)
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^ I think you make some great points and I'm going to try to pre-patch these plotholes as my group is moving through book4. You've probably already taken steps to tighten all this up
The adventure paths are wonderful and give us an excellent framework from which to build a campaign. That said, they require a lot of tinkering and tweaking depending on player levels of scrutiny & plot analysis.
My group crawls up every NPC's bum with a microscope and imagines far more devious plotlines than paizo or I could come up with, so I sometimes let their rampant paranoia expand on things a bit.
- In my experience, Book 5 of APs is where balance really starts to fall apart and you need to start just using most encounters as like... the plot, but make the stats your own. Parties are all different so just tailor things to match your parties strength better while keeping the themes the same. I'd keep the Geryon Cultists as divine unarmed builds for example, just make them more effective. Warpriest has a good archetype iirc
- it's been a minute since I've read over the fountain, but at a glance your idea seems valid. I'd double check to see if any templates that the defenders have allow them to do shenanigans like that though. But keeping it so that "Only followers of the Inheritor" can use those types of magic seems perfectly logical for a holy site.
- the Crows are weak yeah, but the way I interpreted that whole sequence was that its supposed to be a bit of a power trip for the PCs. If you want to make them strong enough to pose even a minor threat that's your prerogative, just keep in mine that I think the point is that they arent supposed to he a major threat.
- From what I've read the Ghost Dragon is absolute bullshit difficult and is indeed TPK central. However, I'm 95% sure its supposed to be done in the Library. IE, burn the place down and perform it while the ashes are still hot. At least that's how it was done in most stories I've heard. Which is a factor in how TPK central it is, lots of parties dont rest beforehand.
My table's PCs have decided to hold on to a few books from Archive of Redacted Histories. What kinds of juicy secrets would they find in the books that were supposed to be burned or edited?
Party is just finishing up the ritual from the last book so will be in the citadel soon i was just wondering if anyone managed to do anything interesting with the Exscinder, aside from being a jerk to my one player who happens to have a spellbook or just messing w/ their memories for no paticular reason he seems pretty meh, most of his abilities are not useful in combat and his fire sword is basically useless against my team (one is immune and the rest are all resistant in some way or another), actually i'm get really annoyed with this APs obsession with fire damage
For the record this my party (Lvl 12)
1. CE Half-Orc Alchemist (Explosive missile plus paint arrows)
2. LE Tiefling Living Grimoire Inquisitor (beats people w/ his bible)
3. NE Dhampir Primitive Barbarian/Evangelist (grapples people than eats them)
4. ?E Ratfolk Gravewalker Witch (replacement for the last necromancer who left :P)
5. LE Merfolk Chirugeon Kineticist (Positive/Negative Blasts, somebody needs to heal and she rarely has to deal with any resistances, MASSIVE Con)
That fort is quite sandboxy...
What would happen if the PCs take the whole dragon body with them?
My party did just that, cut the head off and took that back to the capital, then returned the day after and cleared the remaining enemy from the citidel, and then proceeded to make whole/create undead on the dragon corpse. they are now heading to the Fountain on the back of the dragon.
the citidel fight was quite fun, took ages to get through and they did miss a couple things. i kept attempting to bottle neck the party into places but as you can imagine at 13th level, wasn't hard for them to deal with everything i threw at them. great fun.
So, we've reached the Barleybridge point. My players went through it but now they are … unhappy. Not the players but the PCs. It has been building up since they reached Egorian. The nationalist village boy come Hellknight is having certain issues some of which I did not know how to address. The party is evil but not cruel. Its a mix of "I will do anything for my country" and "I will do anything for myself". So... issues...
1 Competency. Is everyone in Cheliax this incompetent? From the first day we stepped into Egorian -and waited 3 hours at the line- this does not seem like the well organized country our characters believe in. (They are all residents of Longacre so they had build a certain admiration for the Glorious Cheliax in their heads)
2 Nobles. We have not met a single noble that doesn't look like an incompetent, rude, idiotic waste of space. Sethic and Levisvia were squabbling over crap. Bramilla was an idiot. The elf was worse. Who rules this country? How is it ruled if these guys are in charge?
3 Levisvia. If the Queen needs a sacrifice is she unable to inspire a single person to give their life for our glorious nation? Our PCs would if asked. Dragging unwilling people to be sacrificed seems like the worst way to do it.
4 Barleybridge. Why couldn't the Queen ask 100 people to die for their country or even promise them hefty compensations for their family? (Note here that they never found out about the Caiden Cailean worshippers in the village). Are we murdering our own now? Isn't murder illegal? Isn't Cheliax a lawful country? Why are the authorities illegally murdering people?
5 Queen. We don't like the Queen (Here I probably played her wrong / understood wrong.) She doesn't seem like she cares about her subjects. She expresses no feelings over the sacrifices, especially Barleybridge. She shows no remorse. She looks like a petulant kid not a capable individual. Maybe we should attack the Queen -for the glory of Cheliax- even if we die trying. (I have NO IDEA what to do if that's their end game.)
6 Cheliax in general. What are the armies of Cheliax doing? Why does it seem that we're the ones handling everything? Why did we have to go to Barleybridge and murder peasants? Why couldn't Dotari or someone else do this crap job? Why does it seem that everyone is sitting on their ---? (Again here I believe I failed)
A bit of a late response but maybe I can add some context that can help any future GMs if anything might need more playing up:
1. 3 hours may seem like a lot today to wait in what is essentially the DMV of evil, but consider the time period, where everything is recorded by hand, and where the alternative is there are no records at all. The rest of this is sorta related to the individual points of the following answers, but the party is just the secret weapon of Thrune, not her only weapon, and those competent weapons *have* been deployed elsewhere, leaving most of the layabouts and gossips (that still have their relevance in court and in identifying dissedents) at home.
2. Sethic and Levisvia have a very targeted grudge but that is by far not what consumes their entire lives. Sethic runs a luxury restaurant with a vertical monopoly on how he does it. Levisvia owns a series of hotels, part of which is "stolen" from Sethic's monopoly, and both advise the Queen in the background. The fact that either party also has as much dirt on one another to fuel the party's actions against the rival is saying a lot about their competence, even before we get to the fact that they are both level 10+, something less than .1% of any population is. Both of these two nobles would likely be the strongest non-military nobleperson in Thrune's court, but most of those people are also out fighting the war. This leaves the eccentrics like Bramila and Kavalderic who are acting as if everything is as normal, which is very powerful from a propaganda standpoint, and likely why the Queen encourages Kavalderic especially, despite his near-heresies (also letting his mild voice stay allows her to act as if she isn't silencing dissidents).
3. The Queen *could* just get some random wannabee or even just a random homeless denatsate (like the Angel Knight from book 1 used to be) to be the sacrifice, but then she still has the member of the court who has lost all standing as a blot upon herself. Not only is she making an example for failure by forcing them to be the unwilling sacrifice, but again she is not making herself out to be a bad guy to her subjects by opening up the possibility for someone to assume coercion of someone "not in the game" so to speak. (Evil isn't blind, sure maybe halfings belong in service to those above them, and every citizen has a duty to their queen, but that duty doesn't include giving your life and even loyal subjects could become scared if this did happen; see Barleybridge below.)
4. The queen could ask for 100 volunteers, and maybe even find some who meet the "innocent" clause of creating the Tathluum, or she could just go searching from house to house, but you run into the same problem from above where the populace will get scared when they see this happening undeniably beside them. By going to this isolated town, it's very easy for it to be swept under the rug, and the queen even implies that wiping out the entire town is preferable to just collecting 100 out of whomever is living there. The fact that the teachings of a CG god are anathemic to her reign is just a bonus.
5. Evil is still Evil, on some level it could be utilitarian (creating this weapon requires 100 questionably loyal souls, but using it will save thousands more who are certainly loyal), it could be self centered will for power (she doesn't know the citizens of Barleybridge, so she knows she is strengthening her reign by killing them just like she is killing any paladin of the reclamation), it could just be a simple test of loyalty which is very much a lawful trait (of course any 100 innocents could be used, but will these people do the specific task I have set out because I told them to do it), etc., or any combination there of. The queen is loyal to herself, the kingdom of Cheliax is a tool to support her own extravagance and maintenance of power, and there are plenty of leaders past and present who ruled by the same mantra.
6. The armies of Cheliax are woefully outmatched, which is why they are losing without the aid of the PCs. In book 6, you can see the stats of the surrendered Dotari of Westcrown, what would have been the defensive force of that city. It's a bunch of fighters (most of whom are evil) against an army of mostly seasoned paladins fresh from the Crusades against the Wordlwound. Tyrant Anti-paladins are extremely rare, and the only equivalent troop against what is the bulk of the Reclamation's forces. The PC's are the secret weapon, they are getting the closest thing to a nuke a magical, medieval army can have, and not fighting in drawn out conflicts like a normal military engagement. However, despite this, the Reclamation hasn't really pushed that far into Cheliax, they've taken via surprise most of the eastern outlying villages before any responding army could be mobilized, but until the end, the only other major city they take is the Westcrown, which is a port town sharing water with the staging countries for the Reclamation.
Basically, evil is much more decisively plotting than might be immediately presented, but not more than can be presented.
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Is anyone to help explain how this area works? I'm mapping out area A16-A17 of Citadel Dinyar. The way the map and the room descriptions are very confusing.
Is A17 and gate to the East the main entrance to the Citadel?
How does the drawbridge work to access the tower that is A16?
A16 looks like it's in a some cave? Where is the path going from the door?