Improved precise shot early alone is worth way more than what the fighter gets. Go ranger.If you're primarily after Improved Precise Shot, Zen Archer is a much better choice.
Ranger has to choose between Point Blank Master and Improved Precise Shot as the 6th level bonus feat. Unless you are in a long range game, the smart choice is Point Blank Master because there is no other way for the ranger to get this feat. Not provoking in melee lets you get more full attacks (because you don't have to keep moving away) and you can use the Point Blank Shot bonus damage (if you have it).
(Zen Archer already has Point Blank Master by level 6, so Improved Precise Shot is the obvious choice.)
To underline this, the primary tactical concern for archers is "what do I do when an enemy closes to within melee range". You can just run away, but this denies archers their primary advantage over non-ranged martials- the ability to make full attacks on most rounds. Five foot steps are okay initially, but eventually you're going to be fighting things with reach or Step Up, and this is going to be a concern because "run up there and poke the guy who can kill us from far away" is a really obvious strategy that will be employed by most enemy combatants that are even a little intelligent; and since you're a martial and not the wizard, no other player is going to babysit you to keep you out of melee combat. Plus the wizard can partially counter "geek the mage" strategies by dressing inconspicuously, but it's much harder to hide "that one is carrying an enormous magical bow" (longbows for medium sized creatures are ~6 feet long) so the archer might end up as the primary target until the identity of the mage becomes obvious.
So archers kind of have to figure out how to get around this problem. The obvious and tremendously effective solution is point blank master (with PBM and Snap Shot/Reflexive Shot the arrows are practically melee weapons, since you threaten but don't provoke) but there are others. So the OP just ought to keep this in mind, since archery is sufficiently powerful in PF that you're going to draw heat from intelligent enemies.
(One of the things that makes the ZAM a top-notch archer is that the ZAM is quite possibly the archer that is least vulnerable to the "big dumb melee guy charges you" strategy, what with PBM and tremendous mobility.)
The ranger has a wolf with trip. Charge the archer could be a fatal mistake.
The ranger has a wolf with trip. Charge the archer could be a fatal mistake.
Unless you make the wrong choice for Hunter's Bond, or you want to use your animal buddy for something else, or you're charged by something that's too big, has too many legs, or has a high acrobatics score.
That's a solution, but "planning for how to deal with people who want to get in your face" is a big issue for Archers, which is why PBM is almost certainly a better choice for your level 6 bonus feat than IPS, since it solves the problem straight away (so your animal buddy can freelance or be someone else's bodyguard/flanking pal.)
Its pretty rare that 5 foot step and shoot won't solve most of your problem. Its certainly far rarer than someone's keister being in the way. Boon companion is available and guarantees you a meatshi...loyal solution to melee combat.
Switch-hitting is an option for dealing with people that get in your face and rangers make fantastic switch-hitters. Plus the spells, skills, AC...what's not to like? Go ranger.
One of the things that makes the ZAM a top-notch archer is that the ZAM is quite possibly the archer that is least vulnerable to the "big dumb melee guy charges you" strategy, what with PBM and tremendous mobility.
And Improved Unarmed Strike, so you threaten in melee from level 1. And it's always great fun to watch people think they can run past the archer since he clearly doesn't have a melee weapon out...
Funny you should mention this. I am currently mulling over a combo regarding the Divine Marksman archetype.
(Gnoll Killer trait, Shapeshifting Hunter feat, Feral Hunter 4, Divine Marksman 4: when not fighting a favored enemy, +4 to attack and damage with all ranged weapon attacks.)
I'm pretty sure Shapeshifting hunter only works with Druid and not with hunter even if you might qualify for it.
Also to all those claiming that weapon trainng means fighter deals more damage than Divne Marksman due to weapon training. The hald favored enemy bonus is superior to weapon training in that regard.
To the OP.. as you can tell there are many flavors of archers and you have to decide what you are looking in the game and where your skill lies. A fighter is a very simple and reliable source but as people mentioned out of combat you kind of fall behind. If the gm allows traits you might be able to pick up a skill or two you "need" and if you go human you could pick up Focused study to increase some skills (skill focus at 1,8 and some other level at the cost of the human bonus feat...since you are going fighter you have at least one to spare.)
Ranger I agree has more complexity.. skills wise he is superior, depending on the game that can be VERY important...not to mention if there is a long pause between combat you might get bored...those will help. I'd be really wary of losing magic... the ability to use a cure light wound wand out of combat to get the healer up is invaluable :) I would look at the spell list and really decide if it is worth losing. Feats..yeah you will be pinched but if you check the guides you can manage and be on par with the fighter imo
The zen archer is really nice he is given everything to be a ultimate archer and has some skills to boot.
I would look at the slayer sounds like what you might be looking for
Alchemist is the toolbox and is pretty darn flexible.
The inquisitor...seriously the underdog...but I'm playing one and the shocked stares I'm getting is worth it. Not as many arrows in the air but they really hurt.
So good luck and have fun
I just want to say, everyone keeps talking about how great a Zen Archer monk is, and not that they are a bad class. They're heavily front loaded, and give a lot of feats and are great...for a dip class IMO. However, the Zen Archer doesn't get any serious static damage modifiers to his arrows and that is how you build substantial damage. Sure he can spend a ki point to change the damage to his unarmed strike damage, but that just isn't enough.
He also doesn't even get many more arrows to make up for it (1 more).
Zen Archers are great until about level 6, and then basically any other archer will start to outshine them in terms of damage (though a Zen Archer does have some tricks to overcome normally difficult situations for an archer).
It's solid, but it really isn't the end all be all to archers.
I'm currently mulling over Zen Archer 1-2, Feral Hunter 1-2, Dragoon 1 (Mounted Archery feat - Level 5), Cavalier (any archetype that does not remove expert trainer) 1-4 (Horse Master feat - Level 9), Spire Defender/Eldritch Archer 1-2, then not sure. (Mounted Archer build)
Ranger and Fighter are about play styles and what you want your character to do. The more specific you want, the more mutliclassing you'll likely have to do. No one class by itself can make a decent mounted archer for example.
I'm currently mulling over Zen Archer 1-2, Feral Hunter 1-2, Dragoon 1 (Mounted Archery feat - Level 5), Cavalier (any archetype that does not remove expert trainer) 1-4 (Horse Master feat - Level 9), Spire Defender/Eldritch Archer 1-2, then not sure. (Mounted Archer build)
Ranger and Fighter are about play styles and what you want your character to do. The more specific you want, the more mutliclassing you'll likely have to do. No one class by itself can make a decent mounted archer for example.
I'm going to beg to differ on a couple points.
1) If your going to dip Zen Archer, I personally recommend doing so with something that has wisdom synergy. Ranger or Inquisitor are both great (especially Sanctified Slayer). And then you do a 3 level dip into Zen Archer to use wisdom for AC and to hit with bows. You ignore dex, and focus on wisdom, then strength, then con.
1a) I will admit though that you seem to have something else in mind, I'm just not sure what exactly
2) If your purely going for a mounted archer build you really don't need to invest much to have it be incredibly effective. I'm not sure what your trying to work towards exactly, but Ranger or Inquisitor again both do this incredibly well. For Ranger you need Boon Companion to bring the animal companion up to level. For Inquisitor you need to pick the right Domain or Inquisition that grants an animal companion or mount (and possibly boon companion). For instance Chivalry Inquisition grants you a full progression mount (per cavalier mount), but Animal Domain (and it's subdomains) grant you an animal companion at -3. But that's really all you need. Getting the animal is the hardest part. You don't really need any feats or anything beyond that, unless you want your animal to participate in combat or something (which is silly IMO). The mount is the movement based part of your duo that allows the archer to full attack and decimate everything. You never spend a move action and can always full attack. You don't take any penalties to attacks unless your mount double moves. Depending on your GM you can even have your mount ready an action move away if someone moves to you and attacks.
You really don't need to do anything to be good at mounted archery, unless again, I'm missing what you're after.
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Play what you want and tell the others to sod off.
If going fighter, I would use the Lore Warden.
That said, play what you want. Both classes are just fine.
Both Lore Warden and Tactician archetypes of Fighter get 4 + IntMod skill points per level instead of 2 + IntMod skill points per level. Tactician Fighter gets you a somewhat delayed version of the Cavalier's Tactician ability . . . Which leads me to wonder: Would anything be wrong with going Cavalier (if you want a mounted archer with the Tactician ability) or Samurai (if you want a mounted archer without the Tactician ability and more focus on mounted archery). Both of these get Challenge, which is limited use(*) but works against any enemy (no dependence upon enemy's alignment or membership on your Favored Enemy lists, and no dependence upon spells. They also get a full progression Mount (or other Animal Companion, for Huntmaster Cavalier). If you want to multiclass but are willing to go for at least 4 levels of Cavalier with an archetype that doesn't trade out Expert Trainer (Samurai doesn't have this feature), you can keep your Mount at full progression(**) with the Horse Master feat.
(*)You can stretch this somewhat with the Chain Challenge feat.
(**)This feat requires 6 ranks of Ride, so if you bail on Cavalier right after 4th level, you will have a bit of a coverage gap unless you already took at least 2 levels of something else.
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I'm currently mulling over Zen Archer 1-2, Feral Hunter 1-2, Dragoon 1 (Mounted Archery feat - Level 5), Cavalier (any archetype that does not remove expert trainer) 1-4 (Horse Master feat - Level 9), Spire Defender/Eldritch Archer 1-2, then not sure. (Mounted Archer build)
Ranger and Fighter are about play styles and what you want your character to do. The more specific you want, the more mutliclassing you'll likely have to do. No one class by itself can make a decent mounted archer for example.
I'm going to beg to differ on a couple points.
1) If your going to dip Zen Archer, I personally recommend doing so with something that has wisdom synergy. Ranger or Inquisitor are both great (especially Sanctified Slayer). And then you do a 3 level dip into Zen Archer to use wisdom for AC and to hit with bows. You ignore dex, and focus on wisdom, then strength, then con.
1a) I will admit though that you seem to have something else in mind, I'm just not sure what exactly
2) If your purely going for a mounted archer build you really don't need to invest much to have it be incredibly effective. I'm not sure what your trying to work towards exactly, but Ranger or Inquisitor again both do this incredibly well. For Ranger you need Boon Companion to bring the animal companion up to level. For Inquisitor you need to pick the right Domain or Inquisition that grants an animal companion or mount (and possibly boon companion). For instance Chivalry Inquisition grants you a full progression mount (per cavalier mount), but Animal Domain (and it's subdomains) grant you an animal companion at -3. But that's really all you need. Getting the animal is the hardest part. You don't really need any feats or anything beyond that, unless you want your animal to participate in combat or something (which is silly IMO). The mount is the movement based part of your duo that allows the archer to full attack and decimate everything. You never spend a move action and can always full attack. You don't take...
Over the years, Claton has proven time and time again that s/he's a really smart cookie. Claxon's suggestions are almost always really good :D Thank you for suggesting Inquisitor and a relook at Ranger (my new character starts next Tuesday -- my GM is very cruel and loves to kill player characters; 20 point buy)
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So if we are exclusively looking at Fighter v. Ranger, rangers get a pet and that is neat. Boon Companion helps make that pet your level +1. Humans get a human only feat that gives your pet an additional +1. I cannot remember the name of it because I rarely play Humans.
Ranger specific items include Boots of friendly terrain, Hunter's band, Hunter's cloak, Efficient quiver, Enmity Fetish, Horn of the huntmaster, Comfort's cloak, and Wayfinder* Method 2, #10 = an additional favored enemy (costs 525 gold). There are a couple additional, terrible Ranger items like Horn of antagonism that I have intentionally left out.
Fighters = more feats, no pets. Some of their items include Sash of the war champion, Gloves of dueling, Band of the stalwart warrior, and Manual of war.
I got really tired, I'll try to pick this up tomorrow.
Boon Companion doesn't get your pet up to your level + 1 unless you dip in something that doesn't have an Animal Companion (the Boon Companion boost is capped at your total hit dice). Huntmaster (I assume that is the Human-only feat you are talking about), on the other hand, does seem like it goes 1 level over that limit (and by the way, Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, and Aasimars with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait can get this feat also, because they count as both Human and their other type or subtype for the purpose of feat prerequisites).
If you're looking at an Inquisitor, the Sacred Huntsmaster archetype nets you the animal companion at level 1 as if you were a Hunter of the same level. You do lose the Inquisitor's Judgements, but you gain the ability to use Animal Focus from lvl 4 and buff yourself and your faithful, furry mount or meatshield. (You also automatically apply your Inquisitor Teamwork feats to your animal companion)
I would personally recommend against this.
Losing judgments is a big deal.
And the Chivalry Inquisition gets you a full progression mount (as a Cavalier) that gets to share their judgment witht heir mount.
Sharing teamwork feats is nice, but for an archer there aren't really many that are useful for your companion to have. And the ones that there are can be picked up with the companions normal feats.
I've personally given my companion the teamwork feat that lets you move without provoking and I think that's the only one I found useful. Most of the other good ones are for melee builds, not archery.
Judgement should be available for any meaningful encounter. The problem with judgement is that it uses your swift action, which you also need for bane. And bane will almost always take precedence over judgement.
Judgement should be available for any meaningful encounter.
Only at high level. It's once a day until you hit level 4.
Judgement should be available for any meaningful encounter.Only at high level. It's once a day until you hit level 4.
In my experience, most of your encounters are just filler. It's pretty obvious when you are in a big fight, and you usually only have 1 or 2 of those per adventuring day.
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In my experience, most of your encounters are just filler. It's pretty obvious when you are in a big fight, and you usually only have 1 or 2 of those per adventuring day.Judgement should be available for any meaningful encounter.Only at high level. It's once a day until you hit level 4.
My experience differs. There have been plenty of times when you need to pull out big guns multiple times per day, and you don't always recognize them. When you assume the group of approaching Dragur Captains are zombies, and they get several negative level greataxe crits, you're gonna have a bad time.
My experience is like Melkiador's.
Most encounters aren't very serious, I only really need Judgment once or twice per day. Bane make's up for it the rest of the time. It is a bit rough until 5th level when you don't have bane and judgment to rely on, but after that you're golden IMO.
Also I find it funny when I hear "only at high level. it's once per day till level 4". I don't think you're saying 4th level is high, but that's kind of what it sounds like.
At level 10, there is one more significant trump card the ranger has over the fighter.
There is a 3rd level spell "instant enemy".
With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.Swift action to cast, lasts minute per level. It is essentially the ranger's smite...except that the target need not be evil. No save, no spell resistance.
A ranger I played with bought 3 pearls of power just so he could have more uses of this spell. Anything he used this spell against...melted.
Only problem with instant enemy is you can't use it on monsters that are your favored enemy. So you do end up with 3 favored enemies at 10th. You can't use favored enemy on enemies that are already you favored enemy so you tend to get stuck with +2 on them. Still +2 is better the +0.
My game's been running for the last six months and the group only just got to fourth level...
I don't think there's any way to estimate the number of dangerous-looking encounters per day in a 'normal' campaign. Some parties find themselves fighting far more (or fewer) than the traditional four encounters a day. If the GM is running an AP without much modification, the optimisation level of the group will determine how many of the battles are dangerous. Some GMs make adventures featuring only encounters that are at least moderately threatening, because they think APL=CR battles are a waste of time.
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I just want to say, everyone keeps talking about how great a Zen Archer monk is, and not that they are a bad class. They're heavily front loaded, and give a lot of feats and are great...for a dip class IMO. However, the Zen Archer doesn't get any serious static damage modifiers to his arrows and that is how you build substantial damage. Sure he can spend a ki point to change the damage to his unarmed strike damage, but that just isn't enough.
Actually, the Zen Archer gets Weapon Specialization at level 6, only two levels after the fighter can get it. The Zen Archer's primary advantage over the fighter is getting feats early (Point Blank Master at level 3 and Improved Precise Shot at level 6 are the big ones). The non-damage advantages are great saves, better armor class (because Dex-based fighters don't do well in heavy armor), and high mobility.
And Zen Archers should always spend the ki point for the extra arrow: only use the "make your damage match the unarmed strike" if you are Large (e.g., through Enlarge Person) or have Lead Blades running (or both). But if you spend a round to cast either of those spells yourself, you'll take about 4 rounds to make up the damage you lost the round you cast it.
On the flip side:
In the long run, fighters will do more damage than Zen Archers (I did a level-by-level comparison with the Weapon Master fighter archetype up through level 12). The primary advantages the fighter has are:
- Weapon Training (so never take an archetype that trades that out!)
- Manyshot (so always take Manyshot as soon as possible and use it every round until you run out of arrows)
(While it it possible for a Zen Archer to use Rapid Shot and Manyshot without flurrying, that drops you down to 3/4 BAB, and you're usually just better off flurrying.)
Those two parts make the fighter's damage outpace the Zen Archer starting around level 5-6, and the Zen Archer never quite catches up. Once the fighter can afford Gloves of Dueling, he pulls way ahead of the Zen Archer, even without getting Improved Precise Shot until level 11.
So if straight DPR over the course of your career is all you care about, Weapon Master Fighter is the way to go.
I still play Zen Archers almost every time, though--I just find them a lot more fun. If you're dipping ZA, your best exit points are:
- level 3 (for wisdom to attack and PBM)
- level 6 (for Improved Precise Shot and weapon specialization)
- level 7 (because Monk's robe will bump your effective monk levels for unarmed strike damage and AC bonus to 12, which is the 2d6 break point)
Here's my take on judgements.
First, I haven't seen a ton of use from them but I believe the most used ones are the attack boost and the damage boost.
attack 1+1/5
damage 1+1/3
Compared to an animal companion that shares your teamwork feats and gets free buffs from animal focus.
And the swift action animal focuses usable lv times per day.
lv 4 Swift action str boost is +1 to attack and damage compared to swift +1 attack or +2 damage.
lv8 +2 to both or +2 to attack and +3 to damage.
So the bonuses are close or the same if 2handing, and you get a free pet. Little downside is it doesn't stack, so it can't be as good.
I just looked through the Advanced Players Guide. There is neither a feat or item that grants extra judgements.
I think a Judgemental feat would simply double the number of Judgements per day.
The inquisitors ring would be both a symbol of authority and grant up to 3 extra judgements per day. Cost to buy, 100,000GP per judgement per day. It is, after all, a class feature item.
Actually, the Zen Archer gets Weapon Specialization at level 6, only two levels after the fighter can get it. The Zen Archer's primary advantage over the fighter is getting feats early (Point Blank Master at level 3 and Improved Precise Shot at level 6 are the big ones). The non-damage advantages are great saves, better armor class (because Dex-based fighters don't do well in heavy armor), and high mobility.
And Zen Archers should always spend the ki point for the extra arrow: only use the "make your damage match the unarmed strike" if you are Large (e.g., through Enlarge Person) or have Lead Blades running (or both). But if you spend a round to cast either of those spells yourself, you'll take about 4 rounds to make up the damage you lost the round you cast it.
On the flip side:
In the long run, fighters will do more damage than Zen Archers (I did a level-by-level comparison with the Weapon Master fighter archetype up through level 12). The primary advantages the fighter has are:
- Weapon Training (so never take an archetype that trades that out!)
- Manyshot (so always take Manyshot as soon as possible and use it every round until you run out of arrows)(While it it possible for a Zen Archer to use Rapid Shot and Manyshot without flurrying, that drops you down to 3/4 BAB, and you're usually just better off flurrying.)
Those two parts make the fighter's damage outpace the Zen Archer starting around level 5-6, and the Zen Archer never quite catches up. Once the fighter can afford Gloves of Dueling, he pulls way ahead of the Zen...
I feel like your mostly agreeing with the general statement I made, I just didn't go into as much depth as you did. My overall statement was more that the general measure people take of archery classes is DPR, and the Zen Archer doesn't keep up with other classes. Fighter, Inquisitor, Ranger (against FE and basically everyone at level 10). The only substantial flaw I find with Zen Archer's is their lack of static damage bonus. I think they're great for dipping, and can be fun to play straight. But if your goal is DPR there are better classes to play (that will admit take longer to get good but will be better in the long run).
I feel like your mostly agreeing with the general statement I made, I just didn't go into as much depth as you did. My overall statement was more that the general measure people take of archery classes is DPR, and the Zen Archer doesn't keep up with other classes. Fighter, Inquisitor, Ranger (against FE and basically everyone at level 10). The only substantial flaw I find with Zen Archer's is their lack of static damage bonus. I think they're great for dipping, and can be fun to play straight. But if your goal is DPR there are better classes to play (that will admit take longer to get good but will be better in the long run).In the long run, fighters will do more damage than Zen Archers (I did a level-by-level comparison with the Weapon Master fighter archetype up through level 12). The primary advantages the fighter has are:
- Weapon Training (so never take an archetype that trades that out!)
- Manyshot (so always take Manyshot as soon as possible and use it every round until you run out of arrows)
I'm mostly confused by your reasoning about the static damage, I guess, and I disagree with Inquisitor and the Ranger.
Based on my calculations, the two things that make the fighter do more damage than the Zen Archer are Weapon Training (combined with Gloves of Dueling) and Manyshot. If you remove those two factors, Zen Archers hold up very well against fighters throughout their careers, especially since they get an additional iterative attack at level 8 that fighters never get.
As far as static damage bonuses go, the fighter gets Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization (normal and Greater). The Zen Archer does get Weapon Specialization. What other static damage bonuses does the fighter get that the Zen Archer can't? (Everyone can get Deadly Aim, so I'm ignoring that for this discussion.)
Inquisitors and rangers can't get Weapon Training or Weapon Specialization, and the judgement bonuses don't scale as well as these two, and the ranger has to be fighting his favored enemy all the time for that to count (that will be a game-dependent variable). The Inquisitor also suffers from a 3/4 BAB, so his Deadly Aim bonus and iterative attacks will also lag compared to the others. (Zen Archer counts as full BAB when flurrying, so the Deadly Aim bonus and iterative attacks scale exactly the same as the fighter and the ranger.)
I haven't done the level by level of ranger and inquisitor, but if the key factor is truly the fighter's static bonuses, then these two classes should do no better than a Zen Archer, and the inquisitor at least would probably do worse.
That said, back on the OP's question: each build has a different focus and flavor. Even when we're talking about just DPR, we're talking about a difference of less than 5 points per round on most levels, and it topped out around 10 points per round. To me, that much extra damage isn't worth playing a class you won't enjoy.
I feel like your mostly agreeing with the general statement I made, I just didn't go into as much depth as you did. My overall statement was more that the general measure people take of archery classes is DPR, and the Zen Archer doesn't keep up with other classes. Fighter, Inquisitor, Ranger (against FE and basically everyone at level 10). The only substantial flaw I find with Zen Archer's is their lack of static damage bonus. I think they're great for dipping, and can be fun to play straight. But if your goal is DPR there are better classes to play (that will admit take longer to get good but will be better in the long run).In the long run, fighters will do more damage than Zen Archers (I did a level-by-level comparison with the Weapon Master fighter archetype up through level 12). The primary advantages the fighter has are:
- Weapon Training (so never take an archetype that trades that out!)
- Manyshot (so always take Manyshot as soon as possible and use it every round until you run out of arrows)I'm mostly confused by your reasoning about the static damage, I guess, and I disagree with Inquisitor and the Ranger.
Inquisitors and rangers can't get Weapon Training or Weapon Specialization, and the judgement bonuses don't scale as well as these two, and the ranger has to be fighting his favored enemy all the time for that to count (that will be a game-dependent variable). The Inquisitor also suffers from a 3/4 BAB, so his Deadly Aim bonus and iterative attacks will also lag compared to the others. (Zen Archer counts as full BAB when flurrying, so the Deadly Aim bonus and iterative attacks scale exactly the same as the fighter and the ranger.)
Base inquisitors get bane for +2 attack and damage and +2d6 damage per arrow. And the judgement damage is the same as weapon spec. at lv6 and continues to scale. That's a lot of extra damage that the zen is missing out on.
Rangers lv 10+ get FE on everything with their spells, Or a new Archetype lets them get half FE on everything. So lv5 is +2 attack and damage to everything and an extra +2 against their FE and then it just continues to scale.
I also feel the champion Medium and the Warpriest are good contenders for Most damage archery.
EDIT: Medium get +1 damage every 4 levels and start with a +3 damage, plus they get a completely free extra attack at lv6. Halflings and up this damage even more.
WP can now get weapon training instead of channel energy, so they get that and sacred weapon enhancements and divine favor to up their attacks and damage.
@Gwen Smith
A fighters Weapon Training + Weapon Spec + Greater Weapon Spec is much larger than than the Zen Archer's Weapon Spec alone. Especially when considering Gloves of Dueling.
Zen Archer = +2 weapon spec
Fighter = +2 weapon spec + 2 greater weapon spec + 6 from weapon training (with gloves of dueling) = +10 to attack and damage
For Inquisitors, Bane (and eventually Greater Bane) + Judgement + Divine Favor (and later Divine Power) is a huge damage bonus and attack bonus.
Greater Bane is 4d6+2, judgment is +7, and divine power (with fate's favored) is +7. That's +30 damage (average). Admittedly, it takes a couple rounds to get everything activated. (Round 1, judgement and cast spell, round 2 bane and full attack). With the side effect of the Inquisitor being able to haste himself if there is a bard or other buffer around to do so.
Rangers, are actually worse off against things not their favored enemy compared to a Zen Archer. But against their favored enemy they can do a lot more. And once they get Instant Enemy at level 10 they can choose to pull it out at any time. That's a +10 to attack and damage.
Admittedly this all looking at level 20, but only because that's the easiest place to look at bonuses. At lower levels the discrepancy isn't as bad. The overall point is that once you reach mid levels the zen archer doesn't keep up with static damage modifiers, with the problem compounded by the fact that they don't get really anything in the way of attack bonus modifiers.
The ranger and fighter both get a +10 to attack and damage.
The inquisitor gets a +5 from judgment and a +7 from divine power and +2 from bane for a +14 to hit (which makes up for their lesser BAB though they are two attacks down compared to the monk).
Ranger's and Inquisitor have the added bonuses of easily getting a mount which preserve their ability to move and full attack, which is the best bonus any archer can really get since archer damage drops off hugely if they can't full attack.
Honestly, I'm playing an archer inquisitor right now and I hold back a lot of the time because if I don't it makes combat too easy. With requiring only 1 round of buff time to get myself fully up to speed I can pump out more damage and never have it drop off because I never need to spend a move action.
Id take ranger over fighter any day, because. Skill points. Also, fuzzy animal friend.
Counter point: The fighter gets a BATTLE CRAB.
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Crabs are not fuzzy. They're shelly and nasty. Besides you would send something with half your hp, maybe half your size(if you're a medium sized race) to battle? Shame on you.
If you use mauler archtype familiar, you need to use animals. They may have some kind of scaling str, but do not get scaling AC that animal companions have. I do not believe they should even be sent to the front lines, mauler or not.
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Crabs are not fuzzy. They're shelly and nasty. Besides you would send something with half your hp, maybe half your size(if you're a medium sized race) to battle? Shame on you.
If you use mauler archtype familiar, you need to use animals. They may have some kind of scaling str, but do not get scaling AC that animal companions have. I do not believe they should even be sent to the front lines, mauler or not.
Half a fighter's HP is much more than half a wizard's hp. Secondly, familiars have natural armor progression of +1 at first level increasing to +10 at 19th, growing every two levels.
A familiar on a fighter isn't squishy.
However the decision between ranger and fighter ends:
I'm using a Feather Sacred Slayer inquisitor and really have no complaints...granted I just hit level 6 and seeing others finally get a second hit sucks but by level 8 I'll have 3 attacks plus manyshot. I spend the first round marking a target and casting divine favor on myself and tiger with improved spell sharing I get +4 hit and damage and the tiger gets +3 hit and damage for 5 rounds. Next round i attack, by that point the companion is flanking with a ally..So I would be at +16 to hit and 1D8+9 damage...not counting bane or point blank..the tiger is at +11/+11/+11 1D6+5, 1D4+5 and 1D4+5 (took boon companion)...next level I'll have a swift action to study, tiger will become large and I'll break down for deadly aim (with heroism up it will negate the penalty to hit and give me +4 damage) I do have deadeye bowman to negate the soft cover of one person...not great but man does he hurt
OP = Original Poster
Claxon, you're totally right about monk being a wis based class. If someone is not planning on playing a wis based, non armor archer; taking levels in that class is much weaker than normal. If the OP wants to play a mounted archer (like my plan is for my game that starts later today), then either a) the OP needs to be a straight (or almost straight) class character like Inquisitor with the Chivalry Inquisition (thank you Claxon for showing me this one) or b) they need to take 4 levels of cavalier, get expert trainer and take the Horse Master feat (which works on all animal companions, not just horses). Having an animal companion at your level significantly improves versatility / options for an archer imho.
No problem Sarrah, glad to help.
Anyone building an Inquisitor Archer should think about the Green Marshall for the Eagle Domain and it's associated spells.
It's too bad the Green Faith Marshall is so bad on everything except the domain. Wild Lore, Nature's Ally, and wild step are all worse than the abilities the replace, and you lose stern gaze.
You think so? Admittedly the only ability it trades out I'm sad to see go is Stalwart.
Domain: A number of the animal and terrain Domains are pretty strong but on a whole this is a wash.
You replace Stern Gaze with spells. This is highly dependent on the domain but for the right domains it's a clear upgrade if you keep in mind how few spells inquisitors get and that this can add some powerful off limit spells.
OK wild lore is worse than monster lore but this isn't anything to get upset about.
I prefer Nature's Ally to Discern Lies to be honest, but I play PFS and there once per week is essentially once per scenario. I admit to being biased here as I don't like discern lies.
Wildstep is a downgrade I agree but it's still a useful ability that is dificult to mimic with spells at this level.