Archetype Tier List: A Guide to Picking Archetypes


Advice

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I'd go with
3.5: Power +0, Versatility -1
PF: Power -1, Versatility -1
The usefulness of this ACF changes drastically between 3.5 and PF. In 3.5 losing domains entirely stings, mostly because it costs you a spell slot each level, but it's fairly easy to get new ones outside of Cleric (I'm ignoring DMM Persist Divine Power making full BAB pointless because that's elder cheese).

In PF you're already proficient with your deity's favored weapon, a good number of domains are useful on their own, it's much harder get another domain, and it takes you out of Cleric making the full BAB useless.

Silver Crusade Contributor

ErichAD wrote:
From what I can tell from reviews written for it, the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book is a 3.5 Golarion setting book.

This is correct. It was essentially the original Inner Sea World Guide, though probably only about 2/3rds the size. Many of the ISWG feats and other game material, such as the harrower, are updates of material from that book.


i just figured both were worth mentioning.

the feat helps people tailor the prohibited schools to their own playing type. some people hate certain schools for a variety of reasons, and this lets them dump that school for another.

-

i assume not, but would you ever look at the Wayfinder material? it is 3rd party, but is on Paizo's website, so more like 2nd party.


Huh, I don't see the Woodland Skirmisher Ranger Archetype in that document.


Sorry for the derail, but wouldn’t 2nd party just be your own home brew?


Kaouse wrote:
Huh, I don't see the Woodland Skirmisher Ranger Archetype in that document.

It's down by the official name, Nirmathi Irregular. Both the SRD and official names should be written down for every archetype, so use the search function of your browser if you're having trouble finding a specific archetype.

Quote:

Nirmathi Irregular / Woodland Skirmisher

Power -1, Versatility -1
A really poor trade on a whole. The only selling point for this archetype is the access to druid spells but I don’t see any super amazing things on the druid list that aren’t on the ranger list. It does stack with Fortune Finder if you want more flexibility with your Favored Enemy.


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here's the rest of those 3.5 Chronicles Campaign Setting (including the cleric from above)...

Chronicles Campaign pg 5 wrote:


Classes
After races, the rest of this chapter takes a look at the 11
common 20-level standard classes and how they f it into
Golarion. Each description details the most common places
where members of the class come from or can be found,
and who among the teeming masses most often takes up
that particular profession. Every one also provides a variant
class feature unique to Golarion.
Spoiler:
Barbarian wrote:

Cold Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, a barbarian gains cold

resistance 2. This resistance increases by 2 for every 3
additional levels the barbarian attains, for a total of cold
resistance 12 at 18th level.

Class Abilities: Barbarians in the cold climates of the Lands of
the Linnorm Kings, the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and the
Worldwound sometimes have the above ability, which replaces the
trap sense ability.

Bard wrote:

Specialized Training (Ex): At 1st level, a bard must choose

a single category of the Perform skill. Whenever the bard
performs bardic music using the chosen category of the
Perform skill, he is treated as being 2 levels higher when
determining the effect and save DC. In addition, a bard with
specialized training can make use of his bardic music one
additional time per day, assuming that the additional usage
uses his chosen category of the Perform skill.

Class Abilities: Bards trained at one of the great schools of
the Inner Sea tend to favor one performance type above all
others, focusing their training. Such bards have the above
ability, which replaces bardic knowledge.

Cleric wrote:

Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with

her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack
bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die
becomes a d10.

Class Abilities: Some clerics think of themselves more
as holy warriors than proselytizers or shepherds. For these
clerics, the ability to fight trumps all
other concerns. Taking the above ability
requires a cleric to give up both of
her domains, including her domain powers.

Druid wrote:

Mountain Stride (Ex): A druid with this ability can move

through rocky terrain at her normal speed and without
taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Magically
manipulated terrain, such as spike stones, affects her normally.

Class Abilities: Due to the constant spread of civilization
during the Age of Enthronement, many druids took to the
mountains for solace. These druids adapted to the rocky
terrain and have gained the above ability. This ability replaces
woodland stride.

Fighter wrote:

Class Skills: A fighter trained at a famous war college or

fighting school gains the following class skills (in addition
to the normal fighter class skills): Diplomacy (Cha), Gather
Information (Cha), Knowledge (architecture and engineering)
(Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nobility
and royalty) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Abilities: Numerous martial academies around the
Inner Sea region teach weapon skill, tactics, diplomacy, and
other tools useful for war. Fighters who attend these schools
may choose the above option, which replaces the bonus feat
gained upon taking the first level of fighter.

Monk wrote:

Bonus Feats: 1st level—Improved Grapple or Point

Blank Shot.
2nd level—Stunning Fist or Deflect Arrows.
6th level—Improved Trip or Rapid Fire.

Class Abilities: The monks on the Isle of Jalmeray are of
mostly Vudrani descent and hold to different traditions than
the monks of the west. These monks have the above choices
when selecting bonus feats.

Paladin wrote:

Light of Purity (Su): Starting at 6th level, a paladin with this

ability can emit a radiance of blinding light once per week.
This light acts like a daylight spell, save that it only lasts for 1
round per level of the paladin. In addition, any undead within
30 feet of the paladin emitting this light takes 1d6 points
of damage per round for every two levels the paladin has
attained. A Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin’s level +
the paladin’s Cha modifier) halves this damage. A paladin may
use the light of purity one additional time per week for every
three additional levels he has attained, to a maximum of five
times at 18th level.

Class Abilities: Paladins trained in the Holy Citadel of Light
focus specifically on the destruction of undead and are often
charged with cleansing the land around Gallowspire of its
necrotic taint. These paladins gain the above special ability,
which replaces the remove disease ability gained at 6th level
and all increases in that ability.

Ranger wrote:

Enhanced Companion (Ex): Upon gaining an animal companion

at 4th level, the ranger must choose a single type of animal. The
ranger cannot call a different animal companion. The ranger’s
effective druid level is equal to the ranger’s level –2 (instead of
the normal 1/2) for that type of animal. This animal must be on
the basic list of companions that can be chosen at 4th level and
cannot be changed.

Class Abilities: Rangers who join a military unit sometimes
focus their training on a single animal, to the
exclusion of all others, forming a tight bond.
This ability replaces the wild empathy ability.

Rogue wrote:

Poison Master (Ex): At 3rd level, the rogue can use poison

without any chance of poisoning himself. For every three
levels of rogue beyond 3rd, the DC for any poison coated on
the rogue’s weapons increases by +1 if the target is poisoned
as part of a sneak attack.

Class Abilities: Rogues trained in shadow-shrouded Nidal are
renowned for their use of poison and other vile toxins to weaken
and kill their foes. This ability replaces the trap sense ability.

Sorcerer wrote:

Hidden Reserve (Su): Starting at 1st level, a sorcerer with this

ability can call upon a hidden reserve of magical energy to cast
additional spells. This reserve can be used to cast any spell
the sorcerer could normally cast, but the sorcerer is fatigued
after the spell is completed. If this spell if of the highest
level that the sorcerer could normally cast, the sorcerer is
exhausted instead. This ability cannot be used while fatigued
or exhausted. It can be used a number of times per day equal
to the sorcerer’s Charisma bonus.

Class Abilities: Some sorcerers raised on the Isle
of Hermea do not call familiars like others from the mainland. They
instead focus their development on harnessing their inner reserve of
magic, for use in times of need. This ability replaces the summon
familiar ability.

Wizard wrote:

Arcane Duelist (Su): Wizards with this ability are specially

trained to push their spells when needed to gain the upper
hand. When pushing a spell, the wizard can choose one of
the three following effects: increase a spell’s DC by +1, add
+2 to the level check to overcome spell resistance, or add
a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls made with the spell. A
wizard can use this ability a number of times per day equal
to his Intelligence bonus. Using this ability is a swift action.

Class Abilities: Wizards who train at
the Arcanamirum spend much of their time studying
the practical applications of their spells, often
in the school’s dueling fields. As such, some of them
have learned the above special ability, which replaces
the Scribe Scroll feat gained at 1st level.


My thoughts

Spoiler:
Barbarian: ...whatever. P 0, V 0.
Bard: not compatible with PF.
Cleric: discussed above.
Druid: see Barbarian.
Fighter: +2 skill points/level and a few class skills for a feat is nice but not for everyone. Technically not compatible with PF though easy to use. P 0, V +1.
Monk: not compatible with some better monk archetypes, and the choices offered aren't good. P 0, V -1.
Paladin: not compatible with PF.
Ranger: not exactly compatible with PF. Not terribly useful either, though I guess there's probably a multiclassed ranger with boon companion who might find this useful. P 0, V 0.
Rogue: poison use for trap sense. The poisoner archetype comes closer to making poison useful but costs trapfinding as well. P -1, V +1.
Sorcerer: not compatible with PF, and if you assume that it applies to an arcane bloodline sorcerer then their bonded item option instead of the familiar is better anyway.
Wizard: a useful option, though losing scribe scroll costs versatility. P +1, V -1.


Has anyone rated the types of Accursed Companions? https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Companion%20Accursed%20C ompanion


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Xeth1313 wrote:
Has anyone rated the types of Accursed Companions? https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Companion%20Accursed%20C ompanion

They're not really archetypes (even though Archives puts them in that category) since they don't replace or alter any feature of companions. I could give you a quick rundown on them, though.

Accursed Manifestations:
Bestial Flashes
Power -1, Versatility 0

Getting sickened for +2 to your companion's attack/damage could be marginally useful if you're playing someone who depends more on their companion for damage. A hunter or druid maybe. But you'd only want to do it if you have a great will save as the confused condition is debilitating.

Bloodthirsty
Power 0, Versatility -1

The 'rage' is minor and barely worth the AC penalty, but being unable to speak isn't a big deal to classes without spells.

Festering Flesh
Power 0, Versatility +1

Disease effects aren't that common, so the -2 penalty won't come up often, if at all. Granting your companion more immunities is well worth it.

Palsy
Power +1, Versatility -1

Freedom of Movement on command is well worth being sickened, but you must be able to deal with the Nauseated condition on yourself. It's a straight upgrade for a Mad Dog barbarian with the Internal Fortitude power, and still very useful to a Paladin with the relevant mercy, but most classes want to avoid it. Check out Soothe Syrup and Stillgut if you've got no class-specific solutions.

Rabid Vomit
Power +1/-2, Versatility -1

AoE save or suck based on your companions Con mod? Hell yeah. Remember that you can force this attack every round with a DC 20 Handle Animal check. But saving against Stunned/Nauseated yourself is a tall order and only something I'd rely on if my will save was maxed out.

Scavenger
Power +1, Versatility 0

You take a -2 penalty to the most common of will saves when fighting undeads, and in return your companion basically has Favored Enemy (Undead) and a +2 bonus to all saves against them. Still worth it.

Unexpected Frenzy
Power +1, Versatility 0

Right. So this one is actually a lot more manageable than you'd think. While the GM decides on the triggers, you can always force it yourself as a move action. Even the "typically attacks the source of its trigger" stipulation is easily sidestepped since it's a DC 10 Handle Animal check to direct your companion to fight what you want it to fight. Crushing Despair isn't very neat, but this is the only manifestation that has no effect on a successful save.

Unsavory Friends
Power 0, Versatility 0

Swarms aren't common enough for this to be relevant very often.

***


the Barbarian archetype handbook does not have any information on the Pack Hunter, and with the updated Lore Warden in the Fighter handbook


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zook1shoe wrote:
the Barbarian archetype handbook does not have any information on the Pack Hunter, and with the updated Lore Warden in the Fighter handbook

OK, my suggestions:

Pack Hunter
Power 0, Versatility 0
Losing a rage power for a trait-level version of raging vitality is bad, but getting a bonus to AC vs AoOs has to be better than trap sense for a barbarian. You probably don't care about being able to select teamwork feats instead of rage powers but nothing's forcing you to take that option. Overall a wash.

Lore Warden (Adventurer's Guide)
Dip Power 0, Versatility 0
Full Power -1, Versatility 0
The original Lore Warden was criticised for being an upgrade to the core fighter. This later version has been cut down to match the vanilla, no-archetype fighter prior to the addition of advanced armor training in the Armor Master's Handbook...which makes it worse than the vanilla fighter now.

If you've your own opinions on these Zook, maybe now's the time to share?


@zook1shoe
Thanks for bringing the missing reviews to our attention. Hopefully they're all finished now.

@avr
Personally that's the scores I would give the archetypes, so unless someone is really passionate and opposes, I'll be using those reviews.


Not sure if anyone will see this but the Duettist archetype say's it's not useful until level 8 but the familiars ability to start performances instead of you can be invaluable, not needing to waste a turn starting it yourself.


Doompatrol wrote:
Not sure if anyone will see this but the Duettist archetype say's it's not useful until level 8 but the familiars ability to start performances instead of you can be invaluable, not needing to waste a turn starting it yourself.

The issue is that the familiar doesn't have your feats or items. So at lv 4 you'd most likely prefer to perform yourself so that you can use Lingering Performance to save rounds.

And even if you can convince your GM that "just like its master" means that all your feats/items apply, starting at level 7 you can start performing as a move action. Which allows every bard to perform and cast a spell at the start of combat.


Wonderstell wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Not sure if anyone will see this but the Duettist archetype say's it's not useful until level 8 but the familiars ability to start performances instead of you can be invaluable, not needing to waste a turn starting it yourself.

The issue is that the familiar doesn't have your feats or items. So at lv 4 you'd most likely prefer to perform yourself so that you can use Lingering Performance to save rounds.

And even if you can convince your GM that "just like its master" means that all your feats/items apply, starting at level 7 you can start performing as a move action. Which allows every bard to perform and cast a spell at the start of combat.

The advantage of the move-action performance at level 7 is that it lets you cast and begin a performance in the first round of combat.

The Duettist can do this at level 4 by casting with their own standard action and then having the familiar perform for 1 round.

Then in round 2 (or 3 if you have 2 spells you want to cast) you can start performing yourself and make use of Lingering Performance.

It's slightly more expensive in rounds-spent, but your familiar only needs to keep it going for 1-2 rounds, so it's not likely to break the bank.


Wonderstell wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Not sure if anyone will see this but the Duettist archetype say's it's not useful until level 8 but the familiars ability to start performances instead of you can be invaluable, not needing to waste a turn starting it yourself.

The issue is that the familiar doesn't have your feats or items. So at lv 4 you'd most likely prefer to perform yourself so that you can use Lingering Performance to save rounds.

And even if you can convince your GM that "just like its master" means that all your feats/items apply, starting at level 7 you can start performing as a move action. Which allows every bard to perform and cast a spell at the start of combat.

Only if the fights easy. Any fight that matters you will not sacrifice your first action for a few performance rounds and the point was about the value of early game.

The option at levels 4-6 for a free action performance can be invaluable which is a lengthy amount of play time.


Witch Guide wrote:

Ley Line Guardian

Power -1, Versatility -2
...
And you also wave goodbye to your familiar and all the skill ranks that being an Intelligence full caster gave you.

I feel the rating here is overly harsh due to a mistaken interpretation.

The archetype gives you the sorcerer's spontaneous casting and spell slot progression, but it does not make you a charisma-based caster.


Sydney S. wrote:
Witch Guide wrote:

Ley Line Guardian

Power -1, Versatility -2
...
And you also wave goodbye to your familiar and all the skill ranks that being an Intelligence full caster gave you.

I feel the rating here is overly harsh due to a mistaken interpretation.

The archetype gives you the sorcerer's spontaneous casting and spell slot progression, but it does not make you a charisma-based caster.

You're right that it's still an int-based caster, but that said, how good would a sorcerer be without any bloodline features? Honestly that's what this is for the witch. Plus you lose your familiar.

And then your marquee ability, Conduit Surge, requires a fort save (your worst) and replaces 2 hexes.

Side thought -- If you didn't lose your 1st level hex then you could start out with the hexes Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption so that these fort saves would work in your favor. I suppose that if you started play at 5th level or so this could be an entertaining build. <shrug>

In general though, you'd have to want to be a spontaneous caster pretty badly for these tradeoffs to make sense.


Sydney S. wrote:

I feel the rating here is overly harsh due to a mistaken interpretation.

The archetype gives you the sorcerer's spontaneous casting and spell slot progression, but it does not make you a charisma-based caster.

Whops, that's on me. I must have confused it for the other Cha archetype when I updated the Witch reviews. Still tho, the much tighter number of spells available is the main cause of what drops versatility.

Hm. But I think this makes the archetype much worse from a RAW perspective.
"and receives the same number of spell slots per day as a sorcerer of her witch level"
So you use Intelligence for DCs and to determine what spell level you can cast, but use Charisma to determine bonus spells? That's an awful split. (Not intended I bet).

***

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Side thought -- If you didn't lose your 1st level hex then you could start out with the hexes Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption so that these fort saves would work in your favor. I suppose that if you started play at 5th level or so this could be an entertaining build. <shrug>

Had the same thought. But Conduit Surge is a swift action which leaves you without the action required for Gift of Consumption (immediate action is a swift when taken on your turn).


Wonderstell wrote:
Sydney S. wrote:

I feel the rating here is overly harsh due to a mistaken interpretation.

The archetype gives you the sorcerer's spontaneous casting and spell slot progression, but it does not make you a charisma-based caster.

Whops, that's on me. I must have confused it for the other Cha archetype when I updated the Witch reviews. Still tho, the much tighter number of spells available is the main cause of what drops versatility.

Hm. But I think this makes the archetype much worse from a RAW perspective.
"and receives the same number of spell slots per day as a sorcerer of her witch level"
So you use Intelligence for DCs and to determine what spell level you can cast, but use Charisma to determine bonus spells? That's an awful split. (Not intended I bet).

***

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Side thought -- If you didn't lose your 1st level hex then you could start out with the hexes Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption so that these fort saves would work in your favor. I suppose that if you started play at 5th level or so this could be an entertaining build. <shrug>

Had the same thought. But Conduit Surge is a swift action which leaves you without the action required for Gift of Consumption (immediate action is a swift when taken on your turn).

"A ley line guardian is a spontaneous spellcaster. She knows the same number of spells and receives the same number of spell slots per day as a sorcerer of her witch level." -- I suppose that could mean that the number of bonus spells would be determined by cha, but a witch's bonus spells are determined by int. I imagine most DMs would drive this from int, but it is ambiguous in the RAW. Nice catch.

And drat on the overlap between Conduit Surge as a swift action and Gift of (Greater) Consumption being an immediate action. Another nice catch.

I really don't understand the scenarios when a witch would risk being staggered for minutes to get +1.5 or +2.5 CL. It's certainly only worthwhile out of combat.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

{. . .}

You're right that it's still an int-based caster, but that said, how good would a sorcerer be without any bloodline features? Honestly that's what this is for the witch. Plus you lose your familiar.

Giving up a Familiar is normally bad, but giving up a Familiar that you don't dare put in danger because if it dies you effectively lose your spellbook is actually a decent trade. And as for Bloodline features -- those are your Hexes. Too bad you have to trade out 2 of them for the lackluster Conduit Surge.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

And then your marquee ability, Conduit Surge, requires a fort save (your worst) and replaces 2 hexes.

{. . .}

Yes, it isn't very good. You CAN improve it a bit if you have the Fortune Hex by using Fortune on yourself before using Conduit Surge, but that's going to be terrible on your action economy, unless you already needed Fortune on yourself for some other reason and then it's still going when you use Conduit Surge. Also, that's only good once per day (due to the once per day for each target limitation of Fortune like most other Hexes).

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