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Instead, talk to the player out of game. Ask him to respect your rulings at the table and discuss it afterward. Ask him to tone down his characters willingly.
If he can't handle that... it might be time to decide whether your group can go on without him. :/
Either you and this player should resolve this out of game, or you remove him from the group.
This is it. Don't hesitate to punt those who refuse to cooperate.
He's wrong on the wild shape. Show him the rule book.
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Definitely agree with LazarX. We have all felt like that at some point. It would help to know what level you are at.
Just a suggestion short of banning the guy from the group. Ask him to stick to core rulebooks spells unless he discusses them with you first. Also if there is a particular spell or spells that is making it very hard to design encounters then consider asking him to limit his use of it to once a day or emergencies only.
Also how many encounters are you typically getting through before the party rests? Lower numbers give wizards substantial advantages.
Regarding killing the character, that will rarely solve anything and it probably won't even make you feel better. As the DM you have the ultimate power at the table but ultimately you have to use it to make sure everyone has a good time (yourself included) it's like a compact. The forums are full of advice of how to bring down nuclear ruin using a particular combination spells or abilities to squash this guy like an insect. You can do that, you're the DM. But then an hour later when the squabbling and recriminations are over everyone leaves feeling like they wasted an evening - other than those sad souls who just want to watch the world burn.
Good advice from Kalindlara. Try and deal with it out of game maybe with a few adjustments to the structure of the adventure.
Lol, I don't think that is a solution by itself! I merely say that as a new DM the breath of spells in a dozen + books can be really overwhelming. As a new DM sticking to core can let you get a grip of some of the tricky ones without being swamped.
There is lots of advice for simulacrum and planar binding spells on the forums. are those causing you problems?
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I've always felt that it's your table, your rules. The books all of them are entirely up to you to decide what's valid and what's not valid. Examples; weapon finesse to use your dex bonus for light weapons is nonsense so I changed it. Again it's your table friend, your no one's PlayStation, your taking time out of your day to host and run a game. The lest your players can do is shut up and be happy.
End of rant.
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Lol, I don't think that is a solution by itself! I merely say that as a new DM the breath of spells in a dozen + books can be really overwhelming. As a new DM sticking to core can let you get a grip of some of the tricky ones without being swamped.
There is lots of advice for simulacrum and planar binding spells on the forums. are those causing you problems?
I actually have had planar binding used in my game; it's been very interesting. Not an issue here, but my players weren't trying to break it at all.
My read on the player in question was: if you restrict him to CRB, he'll immediately seek out the most broken spells and try to abuse them, out of revenge for having his toys taken away. I figured I'd head off that turn of events early. ^_^
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Handle it out of game if you can.
On the other hand, if munchkin players in a non-munchkin game are a problem, take enjoyment in planning ways to kill them off- just let the player(s) know ahead of time that if they are going to slow the table pace to a crawl and quadruple your prep time you go "old school" and be a killer DM where TPKs are the norm. Deus ex machina those non-munchkins.
I had a similar situation, it was often easier for me because the PC used the same tactics over and over again, so I preprinted the rules. Whenever he started to argue, I just said no, and handed him the copy. The player quit a week later and I ran a fourth character (this was after my no munchkin conversation)
You can also establish a table rule that the spell casters have to have the relevant spell descriptions printed if arguing over their effects
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I agree that you will need to talk to the player about this. Judging from what you've already said, you already know that it doesn't matter what type of character he plays, it is still going to be as unbalancing and disruptive.
Start with the topic of table etiquette. If he has a complaint on a ruling, he has a short about of time to show you it is wrong. This is not to be a back-and-forth discussion, and should only happen if it will have a large effect on the outcome.
Outside of the game is the time to have more in-depth rules discussions. There you can take the time to look up the rules, verify the information, and actually discuss different interpretations. Even then, once you make a decision he should consider that topic closed.
Decide if you want to make a point of being a new GM. If you think he would have mercy on you, then make the pitch and ask him to help make the job easier rather than harder. If his antics are getting in the way of your fun as a GM, bring that up. If the GM isn't happy with the game, it is likely others will not be happy either. Everyone at the table deserves to have fun.
Try your absolute best to avoid making any of the discussion confrontational.
To the opening post, it is your show so you make the rules, it doesn't matter what it says in the book. Feel free to ban anything you don't like, as long as the ban applies to everyone it is fair.
Also, you are not obliged to explain yourself. Any time he questions something and you don't want to explain just say: 'good question! You don't know why that is'.
The way we handle rules lawyers out our table is a player can state their case and then the GM makes the call on the spot which applies until the end of the session and then the GM consults the rules after the game and makes a ruling for the rest of the campaign. Players can discuss/argue with the GM outside of the game but within the game the GM is the final authority on everything.
Funnily enough good old rope trick was the bane of my life for years until I just banned it for being a real pain the ass that spoils every campfire ambush encounter ever planned. I had an paladin player who took the unsanctified knowledge feat and mirror image. Every encounter this invulnerable guy had 5+ duplicates given him an 80% or better miss chance and if they were removed he cast it again. I took him aside and explained it was making encounter design really difficult. He then saved it for emergencies - BBEG and when they see st risk of death. I had the same situation with a witch with Retributive hex
You shouldn't have to ban stuff if players are reasonable using it but if they won't play ball, then set the terms under which you're willing to DM.
An alternative is to modify (on agreement with the player) the ability that is causing you pain - particularly if he has built a class around it. The same retributive hex witch used a lot of sleep spells. I agreed that against things with more HD than her (most BBEG) it would only exhaust them not put them to sleep - still a significant debuffing but not encounter ending. To compensate I said it would work on outsiders which in our house rules aren't affected by sleep.
As Kalindlra says, reading between the lines this player may not be so amenable. But at least give him a chance. Where I come from players are hard to find.
Just make some extra encounters per session, appropriate for the regular players, and let the OP min/maxer roll over some of the earlier encounters. Or just let his first attack kill everything and end that encounter and continue with the campaign. Eventually he will get bored and leave or he will get bored and learn how to play well with others.
If necessary, use CR-1 or CR-2 encounters. Maybe even have a feisty kobold challenge him to single combat. Then have that feisty kobold's cousin seek vengeance and challenge him to single combat for vengeance. Then have dead cousin kobold's pet ladybug attack him.
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A regular DM in our group once confided that one solution to min-maxing he had always wanted to try was to run the encounter and after the first round of actions say "ok there's no point rolling every turn, you defeat the xxx and clear the room" hand them the rulebooks and say pick whatever items you want from the book. On the next encounter run the first round again then say "ok you handle that creature easily - there's no point rolling every round" pass them the book and say pick what you like again. Keep doing this until the Players get the hint that if they're not going to make it fun for you, you won't sit and thrash out every boring auto fail attack and auto pass save. After a suitable amount of time ask them to revisit the characters.
Luckily I've never been put in the situation when I would need to try it. Lol
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You should have laid down the law before you all started playing. Complaining about it now and desiring to act in a vindictive and petty manner won't solve anything.
Stop the game, tell your players what you are okay and not okay with. If that player can't deal with your rules then ask him to leave the game. Remaining in a situation where you are both engaged in a tug of war is ruining the fun of your other players.
Oh and killing his character besides being vindictive and petty? Won't solve anything, it will probably make the situation worse and make you look like a dictator.
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The guy is asking for help. He is a new DM. You can't preempt a problem and deal up front if you don't know what the problem is going to be.
On a side note, asking a player to leave isn't always an option - it might just result in the campaign ending and another DM takin over which doesn't help our OP with the fundamental problem or help him gain more DM Xp.
It is worth exploring other options first before the sending the campaign Nova.
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Don't care if you are a newbie or a veteran. It doesn't excuse wanting to take petty revenge because a player did something you weren't okay with but didn't outright ban. You don't want min-maxing? Should have said so before the game started. You can resolve the situation now but it has to be out of the game. You resolve it in game and you are just asking for trouble.
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Be polite, but firm. He "didn't see" a rule? Well, now you are making him aware of it. His ignorance is not your problem unless you let it become your problem.
I'd probably also say something to the effect of "I understand that there can be questions about rules. I will give you the opportunity to make your case, but, in the interests of keeping the game going, I ask that you respect my final ruling. If you want, we can discuss it more in depth after the game."
I'd also probably talk to him privately after a game and ask him what he wants from roleplaying. The fact of the matter is that either he needs to change his style or leave the group, since he's making things not fun for you (most important, since you're GMing it and putting a lot more time in than other players) and not making things fun for other players (they sound like a laid back bunch, but, everyone needs to be in the spotlight sometime).
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You should have laid down the law before you all started playing. Complaining about it now and desiring to act in a vindictive and petty manner won't solve anything.
Stop the game, tell your players what you are okay and not okay with. If that player can't deal with your rules then ask him to leave the game. Remaining in a situation where you are both engaged in a tug of war is ruining the fun of your other players.
Oh and killing his character besides being vindictive and petty? Won't solve anything, it will probably make the situation worse and make you look like a dictator.
Don't care if you are a newbie or a veteran. It doesn't excuse wanting to take petty revenge because a player did something you weren't okay with but didn't outright ban. You don't want min-maxing? Should have said so before the game started. You can resolve the situation now but it has to be out of the game. You resolve it in game and you are just asking for trouble.
I'm sorry, but this sort of aggressive tone is a good way to drive a new GM off of these forums, and possibly away from Pathfinder altogether.
As was said earlier, a new GM wouldn't know what to forewarn against or prevent. We all agree that an in-game solution isn't the answer, but harassing a novice gamer is not the right path.
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You should have laid down the law before you all started playing. Complaining about it now and desiring to act in a vindictive and petty manner won't solve anything.
Stop the game, tell your players what you are okay and not okay with. If that player can't deal with your rules then ask him to leave the game. Remaining in a situation where you are both engaged in a tug of war is ruining the fun of your other players.
Oh and killing his character besides being vindictive and petty? Won't solve anything, it will probably make the situation worse and make you look like a dictator.
Don't care if you are a newbie or a veteran. It doesn't excuse wanting to take petty revenge because a player did something you weren't okay with but didn't outright ban. You don't want min-maxing? Should have said so before the game started. You can resolve the situation now but it has to be out of the game. You resolve it in game and you are just asking for trouble.I'm sorry, but this sort of aggressive tone is a good way to drive a new GM off of these forums, and possibly away from Pathfinder altogether.
As was said earlier, a new GM wouldn't know what to forewarn against or prevent. We all agree that an in-game solution isn't the answer, but harassing a novice gamer is not the right path.
Was my tone aggressive? Yes but that is because I dislike petty behavior or desires, but harassment? Sorry but no, I came here gave my advice and let him know that if he goes through with his kill his player's character over and over plan than he is being petty, and will appear nothing more than a tyrant drunk on power. You should never abuse your power as a GM that is a fast way to end up with an empty gaming table. If speaking the truth is harassment then I've been doing a lot of that my whole life.
Could you post his build? some of the things you said don't sound right. We could audit in case he is doing something dodgy. If he refuses access to it, say he can't play.
My advice; create an anti-party to 1v1 each player, you can talor each to challenge each party member individually and have them attack nonlethaly and capture them.
This encounter is a test. Some players get indignant if their HP drop below a certan point. The problem isn't the rules, or that their character is in danger; the problem is they arn't winning. If they thrown a fit, explain to them it's only non-leathal damage. If they continue tell them to grow up or go home.
If the player starts questioning the rules as you interprate it tell them to show you the rule and that the game will continue with your ruling untill then, and retcon the game to suit. This is a stratagy; as long as he is nose deep in the book he will be quiet.
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Also, I want to agree with the statement that wanting to kill the character isn't bad; acting on it is bad. If you honestly feel that way, you should cancel the next game, do something else for a week (or however long) and calm down.
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Was my tone aggressive? Yes but that is because I dislike petty behavior or desires, but harassment? Sorry but no, I came here gave my advice and let him know that if he goes through with his kill his player's character over and over plan than he is being petty, and will appear nothing more than a tyrant drunk on power. You should never abuse your power as a GM that is a fast way to end up with an empty gaming table. If speaking the truth is harassment then I've been doing a lot of that my whole life.You should have laid down the law before you all started playing. Complaining about it now and desiring to act in a vindictive and petty manner won't solve anything.
Stop the game, tell your players what you are okay and not okay with. If that player can't deal with your rules then ask him to leave the game. Remaining in a situation where you are both engaged in a tug of war is ruining the fun of your other players.
Oh and killing his character besides being vindictive and petty? Won't solve anything, it will probably make the situation worse and make you look like a dictator.
Don't care if you are a newbie or a veteran. It doesn't excuse wanting to take petty revenge because a player did something you weren't okay with but didn't outright ban. You don't want min-maxing? Should have said so before the game started. You can resolve the situation now but it has to be out of the game. You resolve it in game and you are just asking for trouble.I'm sorry, but this sort of aggressive tone is a good way to drive a new GM off of these forums, and possibly away from Pathfinder altogether.
As was said earlier, a new GM wouldn't know what to forewarn against or prevent. We all agree that an in-game solution isn't the answer, but harassing a novice gamer is not the right path.
I have to agree with Kalindlara here, that is not the right path. Yes we all get irritated by pettiness, but why take our own irritation out on the person asking for help?
That why I told him to simply threaten it and carry out the threat if the player gets out of line. Killing off a PC is not petty, and with what he is telling us, it sounds like it might be necessary. If you do not put a stop to misbehavior, you might have other players do it as well.
Sure talk to the player first; yes ask for public support (ideally talk to the player the day before you publically demand they stop); then kill 'em off if they don't stop
Op should use this direct quote:
"My job is to ensure everyone's fun, including my own, if you become obnoxious I'll kill your PC. Eventually the player stops coming to my campaigns and all I have to do is prep two sets of encounters, or withdraw a monster or two"
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If you feel that you have trouble with the rules yourself, I'd suggest picking up the Rules Reference Cards to make looking up rules during a session much easier. I feel your pain in dealing with someone that conflicts with your play style. I've been in games like that before and it really takes the fun out of everything.
You do need to suppress any and all desires to kill any character. The job of the GM is to create a neutral world bound by rules and laws. Let the characters' actions determine who wants to kill them in game - but never influence your own.
Lastly, if this person is going to be a continual problem, talk to them out of game about following your rulings better or ask them to step away from the game completely. It is your table and your right.
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Was my tone aggressive? Yes but that is because I dislike petty behavior or desires, but harassment? Sorry but no, I came here gave my advice and let him know that if he goes through with his kill his player's character over and over plan than he is being petty, and will appear nothing more than a tyrant drunk on power. You should never abuse your power as a GM that is a fast way to end up with an empty gaming table. If speaking the truth is harassment then I've been doing a lot of that my whole life.
Woe is you, huh?
But yeah, ignoring this guy's single-mindedness, everyone that says you shouldn't take it out on the character in-game is correct.
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Please ignore Wolfgang. He is not representative of how we like to compose ourselves on the boards.
To answer the OP: Bad powergamer, bad! Personally, I am a huge powergamer and I know how to make the most ridiculously overpowered characters. However, I can't remember ever playing one that wasn't just a test run. I always check the power level of my fellow PCs before building my character and I only make my character as powerful as theirs.
This is absolutely, 100% a problem you need to handle out of game. Talk to your player, tell him you recognize his ability to build strong characters, but it's not fun to watch a bunch of high school baseball players try to bat off of Randy Johnson.
I've been in exactly your position. It's not fun, and made me dread the next gaming session.
What I came to learn is: This could be a mismatch of play styles. You sound like you and most of your group are story-based, whereas he is about the mechanics and how they can be used to avoid or overcome obstacles. Neither is right or wrong, just different.
People play the game for a variety of reasons. Some players want to be a superhero from level 1. Others want the journey and the gradual evolution into a superhero. Sadly, the two don't mix well, IME, especially if you're a GM of the latter in style and preference.
Don't make a villain of the "bad player." He's after a different experience than you are, and may not be a fit for your table.
Do the others in your group have an issue with him and his play style? If so, you all need to discuss this and make it clear that his behavior is taking the fun out of the game for you because you want to enjoy the game one way and he enjoys it another. If not, then perhaps you're the mismatched element and need to step down as GM, and/or find a different group who match your gaming style.
Good luck to you!
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I would suggest not trying to subtly manipulate your friend. He is not a dog, he is not a pet, he is not a child. He is a human being, even if he's being a bit of a dick right now. If your manipulate him you will lose his respect and trust. Extend him some respect and talk to him out of game, openly and honestly about the problem.
The main thing being that I had a druid use wild shape to shift into an elemental. The player kept insisting that the druid would get all of the stats of the huge elemental and not retain his own, and that went for armor. The main point about this is I missed several attack rolls by 1, when the stats I had down plus the elemental body/wild shape change would have allowed for a +6 to the druids str, both getting the hits, breaking free of binds, and dealing more damage to another player.
Wild Shape rules are confusing because they're spread across the rulebook (& bestiaries). Possibly worth reading.
If you have a player who argues with you about the rules, just say, "You're probably right, but I'm house-ruling it to work this way." Arguing back at the table is a waste of everyone's time.
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He was torturing people then trying to argue his way out of an evil alignment, and he spends unacceptable amounts of time on the phone. Plus he's a bad powergamer and rules lawyer.
To be honest, he just sounds like a dick.
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The two ways I see to fight back against a rules lawyer are 1. Know the rules better. 2. "Im the DM I say so" which sounds childish, but it might have to be the route I take.
3. I want to keep the game moving. We will go with how I understand the rules now, and have a discussion of the finer points outside the game.
It isn't "I say so", it is that you need to make a snap judgement during the game and can look more closely later. Make a note of the ruling he disagreed with, so you can talk to the person outside the game.
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The two ways I see to fight back against a rules lawyer are 1. Know the rules better. 2. "Im the DM I say so" which sounds childish, but it might have to be the route I take.3. I want to keep the game moving. We will go with how I understand the rules now, and have a discussion of the finer points outside the game.
It isn't "I say so", it is that you need to make a snap judgement during the game and can look more closely later. Make a note of the ruling he disagreed with, so you can talk to the person outside the game.
EXCELLENT ADVICE
Wow! These are all some great responses and more then I thought I would get!
Kicking the player out - The best I can do is "its my ball Im going home." I dont host the group, another player does. The other player has been friends with the M/M player for many years. He even stated that hes in the same boat some times and he was the DM who made the call to end the last campaign. I can take away the campaign but once its done then we start the hosts new campaign and lose 3 players from the group.
Mini fights - with 5 players, combat can take a while to get through the list. Half of the players wait until its there turn before even considering what they would do, which means finding the right spell for the situation.
I dont want to go through with takeing it out on the other player in game, its what I feel like doing, its a conflict. I know that I would have to throw enough things in there to kill other players as well, then the party goes into res mode (Id have to say yay or nay to finding gems), reroll, or quits. The sad thing is the two characters I would most likely kill while going after this one wont be with the group after this campaign, but one of them is my best friend.
Wolfgang Rolf is right - its creating a tug of war with the other players. The two ways I see to fight back against a rules lawyer are 1. Know the rules better. 2. "Im the DM I say so" which sounds childish, but it might have to be the route I take.
Apocalyptic Dream - As far as RP goes, he seems to have dropped off on what he wants. He started as a neutral good and through torture went slowly to chaotic evil. He was debating why he should at least be neutral even after I warned him in game and out of game hes going down that path. Once he hit evil it was about the time that he started spending more time on his phone then on the board.
-I am checking with the other players now to see how they feel about the game in general
-I will do what I can to get a copy of every ones character sheet.
I am asking all of the...
When determining initiative at the start of combat, it helps to make a point to make sure everyone knows their spot in initiative and who they are supposed to act behind. I literally ask all of my players to keep up with their place in combat so we can keep things moving. Then I remind them of this when they seem to wait until their turn to make decisions.
The two ways I see to fight back against a rules lawyer are 1. Know the rules better. 2. "Im the DM I say so" which sounds childish, but it might have to be the route I take.3. I want to keep the game moving. We will go with how I understand the rules now, and have a discussion of the finer points outside the game.
It isn't "I say so", it is that you need to make a snap judgement during the game and can look more closely later. Make a note of the ruling he disagreed with, so you can talk to the person outside the game.
This is how I do things. About 80% of the time, I'll defer to the player in these situations but then we look it up after the session so we know for next time. I'd rather keep the game moving and I don't care if there's a slight advantage in a player's favor in order to do so.
Slap him down with a SOS/SOD.....
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Do not try to handle this in game! I cannot stress that enough.
Agreed.
Be an adult about it. Express your concern. I had a player like this, and we talked... he still builds super awesome characters, but doesn't use all their abilities all the time to dominate the group.
he's basically their safety net. :D
If a mature conversation about your concerns doesn't fix things, politely uninvite him from the group.
With newly created characters, I have my players describe their most potent ability, future progression plans, and how they fit with the group.
We all sit down AS A GROUP to make characters, and have total transparency when making those characters.
Good luck.
It sounds like you are on the wrong track to fixing this problem.
One thing I'll add though, is that you wanting to kill this character and feeling like you need to counter and shut him down, may be a symptom of a classic GM mistake, think that it is you vs. the players.
You are not playing against the players, you are trying to help the players have a really fun time. Part of that is providing a challenge, but it most certainly isn't beating them.
Sometimes just changing your perspective can make dealing with things easier. Perhaps focusing on how to make sure your problem player (and the other players too of course) have fun might make dealing with the annoyances and idiosyncrasies of these people easier.
I've played with these kind of players and they can be sooooo frustrating.... I genuinely think that if a friendly chat doesnt do it, then he needs to be taken down a peg or 2 in game...
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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In the short term:
Talk to the player one-on-one, outside the game. Explain the issues. Be respectful, be specific. Explain that the gap in PC power is making it difficult to design encounters. Explain that most rules disputes can wait until after the game to resolve. (You could even ask him to help you by keeping a written record of topics that come up and helping you research them later; now he feels helpful instead of villainized.)
In the long term:
Get better with the rules. You, as the GM, and anyone else in the group who GMs. Get better with the rules. GMs who chant "But Rule Zero!" whenever disagreements on rules come up are bad GMs. Good GMs learn the actual rules to the best of their ability (and if the best of their ability isn't good enough—which a good GM isn't afraid to recognize—then they find someone more skilled than themselves to help them out). Houserules and on-the-fly adjudications are good and necessary things, but they are not a substitute for being genuinely proficient with the ruleset you're using. GMs who truly know their stuff don't have to be concerned with their games getting derailed by long rules debates.
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So, you're new, and that's totally fine. It sounds like you've got a player that played in lots of games and THINKS he knows the rules, but actually doesn't. Have him run everything by you first before he does it, because he clearly can't be trusted to read the rules himself. When everything he does prompts a rules check, maybe he'll take the sign and start actually learning them.
In the short term:
Talk to the player one-on-one, outside the game. Explain the issues. Be respectful, be specific. Explain that the gap in PC power is making it difficult to design encounters. Explain that most rules disputes can wait until after the game to resolve. (You could even ask him to help you by keeping a written record of topics that come up and helping you research them later; now he feels helpful instead of villainized.)
This is excellent advice.
I still want to see his build; post it
While posting his build may help us to find any errors that might exist on it, it will also incite a number of people to try to give you advice on how to kill him, which would not help.