Wild Shape


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

I have looked through the book but I keep missing the specific rules on wild shape. Like in depth detail, the beast shape1 spell description as well as the wildshape in the druid section are not speicific enough.

What stats do I keep the same when I shift, what stats change? what carries over from humanoid form to beastform? Can someone point me to a specific page or book?


TheOrangeOne wrote:

I have looked through the book but I keep missing the specific rules on wild shape. Like in depth detail, the beast shape1 spell description as well as the wildshape in the druid section are not speicific enough.

What stats do I keep the same when I shift, what stats change? what carries over from humanoid form to beastform? Can someone point me to a specific page or book?

Look under the Polymorph section in the Magic chapter. It starts on page 211 under the School of Transmutation. That gives details of how all polymorth effects generally work, and then, Beast Shape has its own more specific particulars (like what abilities are gained), and Wildshape has its own even more specific particulars on top of that (like duration).

Liberty's Edge

TheOrangeOne wrote:

I have looked through the book but I keep missing the specific rules on wild shape. Like in depth detail, the beast shape1 spell description as well as the wildshape in the druid section are not speicific enough. The only time this changes and you need to refer to the polymorph size table is when your natural form is not medium or small(aka non-standard PC race). Everything you need is in the spell description if you are using core races.

What stats do I keep the same when I shift, what stats change? what carries over from humanoid form to beastform? Can someone point me to a specific page or book?

Beast Shape PRD link

You keep all your stats and modify them as per the size of the creature you are turning into as per the spell description. Your Int, Wis and Cha always remain the same. Beast Shape modifies only Str and Dex. The size is already accounted for in the modifiers listed. Elemental body has some shapes that modify the Con stat as well.

For instance, beast shape 1 has the following:

Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

********

You then gain the abilities listed (and only those listed)on the spell description:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.

Note that you gain either the alternate movement mode speed listed or that listed in the bestiary, whichever is slower

Your land speed is always that of the creature

*********
You must also note that while you may look like a giant bear, you are still a humanoid and can be affected by spells that target that type (Hold Person, Charm Person, etc) and are not effected by things that effect animals


TheOrangeOne wrote:

I have looked through the book but I keep missing the specific rules on wild shape. Like in depth detail, the beast shape1 spell description as well as the wildshape in the druid section are not speicific enough.

What stats do I keep the same when I shift, what stats change? what carries over from humanoid form to beastform? Can someone point me to a specific page or book?

It's really freaking complicated. I had to make a farging spreadsheet for it.

You keep *all* your stats, and modify them as noted, but then the modifications also cascade into the metastats and you have to figure all that out.

So when you turn into a Huge creature, you'll get a size bonus to natural armor, and a size penalty to dexterity, and both of those will affect your AC. You'll get a size penalty to hit, but you'll get a size bonus to strength, which increases your bonus to hit, and those combine to form your new 'to hit' stat. Your new CMB comes from your old BAB, plus your new STR mod, plus your new size mod to CMB. Your new CMD comes from your new CMB, plus ten, plus your new modified dex mod.

It's overbearingly complicated to try and figure out in a gaming session. You need to do it before hand. The nice thing is that it's the same for all similar shapes. Your strength, dex, con, AC, CMB, and CMD are all going to be the same whether you're a Stegosaurus or a Giant Squid. (go figure)

I think it's a cleaner way than 3.5 to keep it from being overpowered, but the arithmetic involved when you change forms is annoying unless you plan on doing it ahead of time for a few favorable forms.

I'm playing an 11th level druid right now, and I did these in advance:

Stegosaurus
Triceratops
Elephant
Dire Ape
Dire Tiger
Deinonychus
Giant Squid
Elasmosaurus
Giant Octopus
Bat
Pteranodon
Eagle
all the Elemental forms

Most of the rest of them are crap. Let me know if you can find an animal (not vermin) that has "web," Beast Shape says you get it but there's no "animals" that have it. lol.

Also, druids are freaking gross if you learn how to play them properly.

Liberty's Edge

+1 on the planning ahead noted above.

I have a 9th lvl PFS druid completely focused on melee combat and I have 8 forms planned on a sheet. Huge combat, Large Combat, Medium Combat, Scouting, Flying, Trampling, Grappler, Utility

Liberty's Edge

Oye, Thanks all for your input. Druids wildshape is insane. I don't really like the idea of looking like an animal and not being the animal. I guess for balance issues it makes sense, oh well. Thanks again for all the helpful information.


Shar Tahl wrote:

+1 on the planning ahead noted above.

I have a 9th lvl PFS druid completely focused on melee combat and I have 8 forms planned on a sheet. Huge combat, Large Combat, Medium Combat, Scouting, Flying, Trampling, Grappler, Utility

Something to note once you start digging through the available forms -

Giant Octopus has a land speed, and they're bivalves, so they can breathe air or water. They can also manipulate objects fairly well (like open doors / etc) with their tentacles. It's not as good a pure grappler as the Giant Squid (huge vs large) but it's a quality form. I use it a lot. 20 foot reach with 8 attacks is pretty nice. Almost makes me want to take combat reflexes.


Yeah. Planning ahead is good. Honestly, I think it makes sense that as a druid you have a couple 'favorite forms,' and go through the bother of keeping track of them.

FYI, if you are a small druid there's an additional adjustment because you have to count 'going to medium' before you do the wild shape adjustment.

Lose 2 dex, gain 2 strength.

So a halfling going to a medium creature gets +4 str, -2 dex, and +2 nat armor.


Oh yeah, and I just wanted to say, it is probably the most complicated mechanic in all of pathfinder. But not entirely without reason... it does so much.

Basically there's a stat adjustment for your new size. You get to have some abilities from the creature if its abilities are on the list for whatever level your wild shape is. You do get all the natural attacks.

You don't actually change type because you really aren't becoming that creature... you're mimicking one. As your wild shape/beast shape gets stronger you can get mimic closely... but spiritually and mentally you retain what you were- for good and ill.

It would suck if you turned into a dog and then forgot everything about druidic magic because your brain got flooded with "STICK BALL SQUIRREL!"

Liberty's Edge

Sekret_One wrote:


FYI, if you are a small druid there's an additional adjustment because you have to count 'going to medium' before you do the wild shape adjustment.

Lose 2 dex, gain 2 strength.

So a halfling going to a medium creature gets +4 str, -2 dex, and +2 nat armor.

Not correct.

PRD Writes:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

You only apply what the spell lists unless the above bold statement applies. The polymorph spells treat medium and small the same RAW.


Shar Tahl wrote:
Sekret_One wrote:


FYI, if you are a small druid there's an additional adjustment because you have to count 'going to medium' before you do the wild shape adjustment.

Lose 2 dex, gain 2 strength.

So a halfling going to a medium creature gets +4 str, -2 dex, and +2 nat armor.

Not correct.

PRD Writes:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

You only apply what the spell lists unless the above bold statement applies. The polymorph spells treat medium and small the same RAW.

Hmm. Indeed. Nevermind then-

Rephrase what I first said as "don't be a small druid. You will be shafted."


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
beej67 wrote:
TheOrangeOne wrote:

I have looked through the book but I keep missing the specific rules on wild shape. Like in depth detail, the beast shape1 spell description as well as the wildshape in the druid section are not speicific enough.

What stats do I keep the same when I shift, what stats change? what carries over from humanoid form to beastform? Can someone point me to a specific page or book?

It's really freaking complicated. I had to make a farging spreadsheet for it.

Compared to v3.0/v3.5 D&D it's a cake walk. 2+2=4 kind of easy.


After playing a druid in 3.5, I can tell you this is A LOT easier.
I cursed the day we leveled, coz i had to re-calculate everything :P

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rickmeister wrote:

After playing a druid in 3.5, I can tell you this is A LOT easier.

I cursed the day we leveled, coz i had to re-calculate everything :P

I still play a 14th level Druid/Master of Many Forms in 3.5.

I'm not sure what you mean by 3.5 being "A LOT" harder?
I actually kind of think this (PF) is harder, because not all abilities are granted (like no Powerful Charge ever) and get bonuses/penalties to your stats instead of just wholesale swapping them.


Ravingdork wrote:
Compared to v3.0/v3.5 D&D it's a cake walk. 2+2=4 kind of easy.

Yeah, but =ROUND((M4-10.1)/2,0)+M11+10, except slightly different, for 20 different classifications of forms, isn't.

Which is why I built a spreadsheet. I highly encourage others to do the same. Especially once you get into trying to deal with Wild Armor and shocking amulets of mighty fists and god knows what else.

Don't get me wrong. The PF mechanic is clearly a better mechanic. It just takes prep time, since we're not playing an MMO.


James Risner wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:

After playing a druid in 3.5, I can tell you this is A LOT easier.

I cursed the day we leveled, coz i had to re-calculate everything :P

I still play a 14th level Druid/Master of Many Forms in 3.5.

I'm not sure what you mean by 3.5 being "A LOT" harder?
I actually kind of think this (PF) is harder, because not all abilities are granted (like no Powerful Charge ever) and get bonuses/penalties to your stats instead of just wholesale swapping them.

Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities

-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.


Rickmeister wrote:


Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities
-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.

No its, open beastiary, find animal, use your mental stats


Shadow_of_death wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:


Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities
-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.

No its, open beastiary, find animal, use your mental stats

Think it was more complicated than that...

You are at 27 /40 hp

You wild shape to an animal with 11 hp.

Do you do funky fractions or do you fall unconscious? Little easier to do the fraction because with cellphones no one is more than one fondle away from a calculator.


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/beastShape.html#beast-shape-i

Oops, i was indeed wrong.

But now i AM curious about them HPs?

Liberty's Edge

Rickmeister wrote:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/beastShape.html#beast-shape-i

Oops, i was indeed wrong.

But now i AM curious about them HPs?

Your HP stay the same with Beast Shape. No modification is done to your Con. Changing into an earth elemental is the one that can get you. Your con boosts. so if you get knocked out into negatives which makes you go back to normal form, you hit the same situation barbarians get if they go down in rage. Your wounds stay the same, but your max HP drops, potentially leaving you in a dead condition.

Liberty's Edge

I always played barbarian hit points as a maximum hp cap, then reducing it once you leave rage there for your current hit points only go down if they were over your normal maximum.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rickmeister wrote:

Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities

-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.

That isn't correct.

The 3.5 version is like this:

  • swap in new Str/Dex/Con
  • changing speeds
  • adjusting Fort/Ref saves
  • lose abilities based on form (like gaze)
  • hp doesn't change unless a +con bonus item gets melded without a wilding clasp (losing the +con lowers your HP that amount)
  • select abilities you gain from Ex SA or Ex SQ if you cast Enhanced Wild Shape or MoMF

The PF version is like this:

  • add bonus/penalty to Str/Dex/Con
  • changing speeds
  • adjusting Fort/Ref saves
  • lose abilities based on form (like gaze)
  • hp changes if your con changed from form like water elemental
  • select abilities you gain from the list that the creatures have

There actually isn't anything more complex about 3.5 system than the PF system. In fact the effort is either identical or each system is harder for certain forms.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:

Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities

-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.

That isn't correct.

The 3.5 version is like this:

  • swap in new Str/Dex/Con
  • changing speeds
  • adjusting Fort/Ref saves
  • lose abilities based on form (like gaze)
  • hp doesn't change unless a +con bonus item gets melded without a wilding clasp (losing the +con lowers your HP that amount)
  • select abilities you gain from Ex SA or Ex SQ if you cast Enhanced Wild Shape or MoMF

Don't forget all those little things you'd get that weren't EX, SU, or SP abilities (such as vision modes, natural armor, reach, etc.).

It got complicated FAST!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:

Keeping your mental stats, taking the stats from the animal, watching out for saves (coz they would be altered), adjusting speed, changing HP, and some different abilities

-VS-
+1 here, +2 there, +4 there. Period.

That isn't correct.

The 3.5 version is like this:

  • swap in new Str/Dex/Con
  • changing speeds
  • adjusting Fort/Ref saves
  • lose abilities based on form (like gaze)
  • hp doesn't change unless a +con bonus item gets melded without a wilding clasp (losing the +con lowers your HP that amount)
  • select abilities you gain from Ex SA or Ex SQ if you cast Enhanced Wild Shape or MoMF

Don't forget all those little things you'd get that weren't EX, SU, or SP abilities (such as vision modes, natural armor, reach, etc.).

It got complicated FAST!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork wrote:
It got complicated FAST!

Your point is irrelevant, as you get those with both 3.5 and PF as it stands.

In any event, if I didn't make it clear.
I play a 15th level Master of Many Forms in a 3.5 game. I've been everything but a Dragon, Construct, Undead, and Outside.

I've even been an Incorporeal Monstrous Humanoid.

I'm well versed in the various things you get/don't get.

But it is all very simple in both systems.

So simple, as I have a version of Wild Shape written for HeroLab that automatically processes what you get/don't get when you change forms (a different version for both systems in HL.)

I just can't accept any concept that the 3.5 version is any more difficult in general than the PF wild shape. Is the PF one better? Probably. Is it more balanced? Likely. Is it simpler? No way.


Shar Tahl wrote:

You keep all your stats and modify them as per the size of the creature you are turning into as per the spell description. Your Int, Wis and Cha always remain the same. Beast Shape modifies only Str and Dex. The size is already accounted for in the modifiers listed. Elemental body has some shapes that modify the Con stat as well.

For instance, beast shape 1 has the following:

Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

********

At the risk of sounding somewhat daft, and at the same time calling out what I think might be a not entirely clear synergy, the modifiers that are granted to a monster that is advanced to a greater size category are not applied to Druid (or others) that increase size to a larger size category via spells.

The Modifiers that are listed in the spells are the sum total of the modifiers applied... with one exception. when you size category changes, so does the size modifier that applies to AC\Attacks\stealth\fly\CMB\CMD.


Somthing that has been the result of much discussion in my group is natural armor with wild shape. The spell states that you gain natural armour using it, but do you also gain the natural armour that comes with each creature?


beej67 wrote:


Something to note once you start digging through the available forms -

Giant Octopus has a land speed, and they're bivalves, so they can breathe air or water. They can also manipulate objects fairly well (like open doors / etc) with their tentacles. It's not as good a pure grappler as the Giant Squid (huge vs large) but it's a quality form. I use it a lot. 20 foot reach with 8 attacks is pretty nice. Almost makes me want to take combat reflexes.

Just curious. Are you saying that in the real world that octopi can breathe out of water? Because everything I've looked up says they can't. They CAN move out of water, but if left out of water long enough, they will die.

Or are you saying that octopi in Pathfinder can breathe out of water?

Or are you saying that giant octopi in Pathfinder can breathe out of water?

I have to admit, as a DM, unless I see some rule in the bestiary stating otherwise, if you try to wild shape into an octopus and roam around the landscape, you're going to find yourself "drowning" pretty quickly.


An octopus cannot breath out of water, it has the aquatic type. However... nothing about beast shape or the polymorph subschool mention losing natural abilities, and you do not gain the type. So technically, a druid wild-shaped as an octopus does not lose the ability to breath air.


Talynonyx wrote:
An octopus cannot breath out of water, it has the aquatic type. However... nothing about beast shape or the polymorph subschool mention losing natural abilities, and you do not gain the type. So technically, a druid wild-shaped as an octopus does not lose the ability to breath air.

Hmm... you are probably right about RAW, but I'm not sure I'd allow that in my campaigns....

Have to think about it.

I know I'm not going to allow eight attacks per round...


Talynonyx wrote:
An octopus cannot breath out of water, it has the aquatic type.

Octopus has a land speed in the writeup. So do nereids, sahuagin, sea hag, sea drake, grindylow, merfolk, etc. The sahuagin and merfolk writeups explicitly talk about them spending time out of the water.

The implication is that anything with a land speed can breathe air. Also, real octopi can breath air.

edit:
Sorry, I just checked, and real octopi can't breathe out of the water. They're not bivalves like I thought, they're cephlopods, which breathe through gills. However, they can move across land by "holding their breath" or whatever. There's an "air breathing" spell in old DND3.5 Stormwrack which could mitigate that if GMs allow it.

Looks like "does this breathe air" is a case by case basis based on the writeup, with some aquatic entries being "yes" (merfolk/etc) and some being "no."


Taken directly from the bestiary glossary:

Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality. Aquatic creatures always treat Swim as a class skill.

Does this help to clarify this?


Like most already told you, use a spreadsheet.

i've made myself an nice excelsheet with all the different sizes on it. You only need to make; diminitive, tiny, small, medium, large and huge. Only the size of the creature will change the stats.

make one normal statblock, copy it down several times. Make a small statblock with the changes you need next to the corresponding sizes and just add those two together.

I even have a small statblock for bonusses like my belt of strenght. I just enter +2 or +4 and all blocks recalculate automaticly :D

I've done the same for my elemental shapes and animal companion. When i level i just adjust the level and everything (like BAB) gets changed for the both of us.

I also made a list of all the animals i can change to, with special ability's , swim/climb/fly, the amount of attacks and conrresponding page numbers in the Bestiary 1 and 2.

you can either print the pages or, like me, have it open on a tablet pc. (with the rest of the books in PDF)

Yeah...i love my druid :D


Only semi-related question, but I didn't want to clog the forum up with a new thread on it.

Anybody got any idea how casting Swarm Skin from Elemental Body via Wildcasting works?

swarm skin

elemental body

Fire elementals don't have a skeleton, and Swarm Skin isn't a polymorph spell, so it doesn't supercede the wild shape. Where are the bones you're supposed to return to?

Silver Crusade

Talynonyx wrote:
An octopus cannot breath out of water, it has the aquatic type. However... nothing about beast shape or the polymorph subschool mention losing natural abilities, and you do not gain the type. So technically, a druid wild-shaped as an octopus does not lose the ability to breath air.

Octopuses do have the aquatic subtype however, druids wild shaping into an octopus does not gain the aquatic subtype, just like wild shaping into an elemental doesn't bestow the elemental subtype. Therefore, not only can you breath air but you CANNOT breath underwater. Better mem water breathing.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Edenwaith wrote:
Octopuses do have the aquatic subtype however, druids wild shaping into an octopus does not gain the aquatic subtype, just like wild shaping into an elemental doesn't bestow the elemental subtype. Therefore, not only can you breath air but you CANNOT breath underwater. Better mem water breathing.

Actually the druid is fine:

Magic chapter, polymorph subsection wrote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

As an amusing consequence of this a druid can breathe water while wild shaped into a rat:

Dire Rat wrote:
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.

Silver Crusade

ryric wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
Octopuses do have the aquatic subtype however, druids wild shaping into an octopus does not gain the aquatic subtype, just like wild shaping into an elemental doesn't bestow the elemental subtype. Therefore, not only can you breath air but you CANNOT breath underwater. Better mem water breathing.

Actually the druid is fine:

Magic chapter, polymorph subsection wrote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

As an amusing consequence of this a druid can breathe water while wild shaped into a rat:

Dire Rat wrote:
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.

Right on, missed that. I'll drop that water breathing spell on my druid now:)


Glad this thread is here, as I have managed to confuse the heck out of myself with my druid. First one I've played since 3.5, first one ever with an animal companion (hated keeping track of them).

I need some help on clarifying attacks and defenses while wild shaped.

Lvl 4 Druid (+3 BAB), STR 17 (+3), total AB = +6 (Before wild shape)

If I shape into a deinonychus, a medium animal, I get +2 STR and +2 Natural Armor, so total AB after shaping is +7. I understand that.

Now, the dino has 5 attacks listed: 2 talons, a bite, and 2 foreclaws. The statblock for the dino indicates that the 2 foreclaws are secondary attacks. My question: on a full attack action, do I have five attacks at +7 or three attacks at +7 (bite, talons) and two attacks at +2 (foreclaws)? From what I've read, I believe I have all five attacks at my full AB.

On to defenses: does the +2 natural armor from the wild shape stack with existing natural armor on the animal?

My druid has a 14 DEX, so +2 to AC. When wild shaped, I have assumed that I get the +2 for DEX, +3 natural armor from the dinosaur, and another +2 for the wild shape, for a total of 17 (10 + 2 DEX + 2 Wild Shape NA +3 NA from base creature stats). I assume Barkskin would stack with all the natural armor sources as well.


Attack question: Neither.
You have three at +7 (bite and talons) and one at +2 (foreclaws).
The foreclaws attack is a single attack because it states "foreclaws +0 (1d4+1)" rather than "2 foreclaws +0 (1d4+1)" in the Deinonychus statblock.

Defense question: No, you do not get the creature's natural armor. You get the natural armor from the polymorph effect (spell) relevant to the size of the creature you become.
So, when wild shaped you have +2 (Dex) and +2 (Natural Armor from Medium creature Wild Shape-Beast Shape) = AC 14.

Barkskin stacks because it is an Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor.

There are several ways to deal with the low AC (in addition to casting barkskin).
1) Have Mage Armor cast upon you (friendly spellcaster, potion, or wand).
2) Have Armor made for the specific wild shape form. Put it on after wild shaping.
3) Have armor with the Wild property. Note: the minimum price of this is going to be 16,000gp so it will be a number of levels until you can do this.

P.S. I made a wild shape excel sheet to help streamline running wild shapes. Here is the link in case you want to take a look.


Ah, missed the fact that the foreclaws were a single attack. Regardless, they are a secondary attack, though? I'm bummed about the loss of the creature's natural armor bonus. I thought it was too good to be true. Yay for Barkskin. And thanks for the spreadsheet.

Slightly related question (about third party material): If I took a level in Aegis and did not summon the armor until after I wild shaped, would the armor then conform to the new shape as if it were barding? If it does, it might be worth a level or 2 dip.


Yes, the foreclaws attack is a secondary attack.

Barding is not 'armor for non-humanoids such as animals'. Barding is 'armor for mounts'. So, unless you are a mount you do not need barding, you need armor. (This is actually an important distinction when it comes to flying.)

Regarding Aegis, it would be up to your GM but it seems to not be based on your current form so my guess would be "yes".

If you have any feedback regarding the spreadsheet let me know.


Edenwaith wrote:
ryric wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
Octopuses do have the aquatic subtype however, druids wild shaping into an octopus does not gain the aquatic subtype, just like wild shaping into an elemental doesn't bestow the elemental subtype. Therefore, not only can you breath air but you CANNOT breath underwater. Better mem water breathing.

Actually the druid is fine:

Magic chapter, polymorph subsection wrote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

As an amusing consequence of this a druid can breathe water while wild shaped into a rat:

Dire Rat wrote:
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Right on, missed that. I'll drop that water breathing spell on my druid now:)

While I get the interpretation of that.. I mean.. c'mon..

You can still breathe, sure. You can breathe while swimming, sure. However, swimming doesnt necessarily mean swimming underwater.

Like I said, I see where you're coming from, but turning into a rat (that cant breath underwater) wouldn't give you the ability to breath underwater.

Scarab Sages

Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
ryric wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
Octopuses do have the aquatic subtype however, druids wild shaping into an octopus does not gain the aquatic subtype, just like wild shaping into an elemental doesn't bestow the elemental subtype. Therefore, not only can you breath air but you CANNOT breath underwater. Better mem water breathing.

Actually the druid is fine:

Magic chapter, polymorph subsection wrote:
If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

As an amusing consequence of this a druid can breathe water while wild shaped into a rat:

Dire Rat wrote:
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Right on, missed that. I'll drop that water breathing spell on my druid now:)

While I get the interpretation of that.. I mean.. c'mon..

You can still breathe, sure. You can breathe while swimming, sure. However, swimming doesnt necessarily mean swimming underwater.

Like I said, I see where you're coming from, but turning into a rat (that cant breath underwater) wouldn't give you the ability to breath underwater.

You are NOT turning into a rat. you are turning into a magical approximation of a rat. You are able to breathe water because it's magic. If they dissected you when you were in the shape of a rat do you really think it's going to be anatomically correct with perfect little rat lungs?

Polymorph spells change you into something else through magic. Sometimes that can have strange side effects.


My druid has now reached the level to permit Wild Shape, and it's so confusing and vague that I'm tempted to simply ignore the ability and stick with spellcasting while my animal companion does all the fighting.

Are you seriously telling me that a Str 10 druid who shifts into frackin' grizzly bear still has only Str 10 (or maybe 12 per the Beast Shape +2 bonus)? What if the animal form has a higher base Cha or Wis than I do? Are my skill checks modified by the changing stats?

What happens if you shift into a larger/smaller creature--do you get size penalties to things like AC and CMB? Do you gain reach in the larger form?

And what about the animal's own skills and feats? Bestiary critters have all sorts of Perception bonuses, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, etc., etc... where do these go? and likewise, do your humanoid-form feats carry over to your animal shape? what good is a Swim speed if you can't breathe water, even though you're in fish shape?

How on earth are secondary attacks supposed to work in the first place? I read that they're supposed to have a -5 to hit; does that stack with the multi-attack rule for high BAB (main attack at full, secondary at -5), or are they mutually exclusive?

Some examples would have been a HUGE help, Paizo--in particular a before-and-after stat block for the druid in both forms. I'm flat-out lost.


A grizzly bear is a large creature so you can't change into one without having access to Beast Shape II or wild shape equivalent. (You can't change into a smaller bear, either: Page 212: 'Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template'. Only the archetypal large bear form is allowed.)
If you did change into one, your strength would go up by 4, as the Beast Shape II rules specify. That's why druids who want to fight in wild shape don't dump strength.
You do get the size penalties / bonuses to AC & CMB. You gain reach if the creature has reach.
You do not get the animal's skills and feats - you keep your own.
Multi-attack BAB rules don't apply for natural attacks. If you changed into a bear, you'd get three attacks (bite, claw, claw) whatever your BAB.


OK, here's my starting assumption: When a druid Wildshapes into an animal, you put aside your character sheet, open up the Bestiary, and play the animal as listed. Any departures from that require explanation.

So, step-by-step, what differences and changes occur? Does anyone know of a good guide or resource for how to do this?


Calybos1 wrote:
OK, here's my starting assumption: When a druid Wildshapes into an animal, you put aside your character sheet, open up the Bestiary, and play the animal as listed. Any departures from that require explanation.

Your assumption is wrong. (It worked a lot like that in D&D 3.5. This meant that people could play as Druids with bad physical stats and still fight as well as any martial class.)

In Pathfinder you gain only the specific things listed and nothing else.

Liberty's Edge

Calybos1 wrote:

OK, here's my starting assumption: When a druid Wildshapes into an animal, you put aside your character sheet, open up the Bestiary, and play the animal as listed. Any departures from that require explanation.

So, step-by-step, what differences and changes occur? Does anyone know of a good guide or resource for how to do this?

As stated, your starting assumption is not correct.

It actually very clearly explains it - it's just that people sometimes want to assume there is more to it:)

Here is what your starting assumption should be:

Start with your character sheet as is

Then modify your stats, associated skills etc. as instructed to in the appropriate beastshape spell (taking into account anything in the wildshape ability that would supersede the spell, such as duration of the effect)

Add only those special abilities appropriate to the animal in question specifically listed in the appropriate beastshape spell


I don't think it's as clear as it could be. To fully understand Wild Shape you have to look at: The Wild Shape rules. The Beast Shape rules. The general polymorph rules. The rules for the effect of size on combat performance. The list of which attacks are 'secondary', at the back of the Bestiary. And all of the animals in all the Bestiaries to pick the best one for the current situation. And you have to recalculate all your stats for your new form and for the equipment which has melded with your body, some of which functions normally and some of which does nothing, plus any equipment you put on after changing shape.

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