# Can a Arcanist use Dimensional Slide exploit whyl a monk has him in a grapple?

### Rules Questions

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Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action or withdraw action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see. This counts as 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving in this way, but any other movement she attempts as part of her move action provokes as normal.

So... it says "as part of a move action".

So when someone is grappled they may not move however, they can "still take move actions"?

I was under the impression that he had to move 5 ft in order for this to work but its an (su) so I assume when they say it does not provokes attack of opportunity on the moving between targets and not on the use of it. Also since he can't step I.E. move how can he step through the crack? Does the wording supersede the actual rules or does this not make any sense if you were to apply this in a logical manner.

You are being grappled by George St.pierre and you can't move but you can use your Dimensional slide as part of a move action to get out of his killing grapple for free because its a SU ability?

Yes, you could escape a grapple with this.

Since is a supernatural ability it is not stopped.

You are unable to move in a grapple but you can take move equivocal actions.

It never says you have to move feet, it counts as 5 feet of movement.

That's like saying since I can't move I'm going to use "part of my move action to mount my steed who is beside me and I am still being grappled by a monk". Regardless if it provokes attacks or not having control in a grapple

I guess you can because you can't move? The rules say you can dismount and mount your horse as part of a move action. So essentially what you are saying is that being grappled has no effect on you if you want to climb on your horse and ride off with a monk grappled to you.

The only way I see him from using this is to Pin him so that he can't move?

No, he needs to be able to move 5 feet, which he can't.

Casual Viking wrote:
No, he needs to be able to move 5 feet, which he can't.

Whjere does it say he needs to move 5 feet?

It says it takes up 5 feet of movement, but does not say you are moving.

Findlanderboy seems to be correct.

Finlanderboy wrote:

Yes, you could escape a grapple with this.

Since is a supernatural ability it is not stopped.

You are unable to move in a grapple but you can take move equivocal actions.

It never says you have to move feet, it counts as 5 feet of movement.

while true there are also feats that would let the monk prevent dimensional escapes :)

There are feats and other abilities that will prevent teleportation dimensional movement, but grappling isn't one of them in this case.

Dimensional slide I believe would let him out. Similar to the conjuration teleportation school ability:

Quote:
Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Shift has been widely accepted to get you out of grapples.

Though...I'm now actually recalling some reason why Dimensional Slide doesn't get you out that was given when the arcanist first came out.

Edit: Now I see it, the way it's written the arcanist needs to take a move action and move. Or at least that's the implication.

Prepare to revisit the argument about whether movement is actually required.

Dimensional slide requires you to step through. Dimension door/shift transports you instantly. Stepping through requires you to be able to move. It has a number of advantages over shift (such as not ending your turn unless you have Dimensional Agility) but escaping grapples is one advantage shift has.

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Expect table variation on this.

Shift is a different power. It allows you to change position as a swift action and limits what you can take along.

Dimensional Slide is "used as part of a move action or withdraw action" both of which are specific game terms. "Grappled creatures cannot move", notice this is different than saying they can not take a move action.

As written, drawing or sheathing a weapon would allow you to utilize the Dimensional Slide. Since you can do that in a grapple, it is not completely unreasonable to argue that by RAW you can use Dimensional Slide to escape a grapple. It is also not completely unreasonable to argue that the text is referring to Move as the Move Action and therefore can not use Dimensional Slide to escape the grapple.

As I said, expect table variation.

BretI wrote:

It is also not completely unreasonable to argue that the text is referring to Move as the Move Action and therefore can not use Dimensional Slide to escape the grapple.

As I said, expect table variation.

Exactly this.

By a strict reading of raw, performing some sort of action as a move action would allow you to get out of the grapple.

But I think the intention when you read the ability is using a move action to move, which cannot be done while grappled.

So RAW vs RAI...

Expect table variation.

I've ruled in the past that Dimensional Slide does not work to get out of a grapple, as from context I believe "as part of a move action" is intended to mean "as part of a move action to move". I'm basing this on the fact that Dimensional Slide otherwise only works with the Withdraw action, that it costs movement to use it, and the description of the ability itself.

With that said, I do think the rules text can be read in more than one way.

The problem is that you can't tell if the text is talking about the "move action" or the "action of using move". This is complicated because withdraw is a standalone term like move, and yet it is referred to as a "withdraw action" in the text. So, if withdraw is referred to as a "withdraw action", then maybe move is being referred to as a "move action".

At any rate, expect table variation. My feeling is that the intention is that a move action is a move action, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if a FAQ came out that clarified it was otherwise.

 Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Some assert it doesn't require a move action to move.

Other assert it does require a move action to move.

if both sides are genuine in their interpretations, then expect table variance.

Berinor wrote:
Dimensional slide requires you to step through.

And what's stopping you from stepping through a crack between you and the arm of the guy grappling you? If anything, it's EASIER to move through the crack, because his squeezing pressure is now removed on one side and still exists on the other, so you'd get pushed through the crack just like soda through a straw by air pressure when a relative vacuum is created on the other end. Or just step normally, even if you ignore all that, since there's an opening now on one side of you (into the crack).

Anyway, as for move actions, they =/= moving distance. Drawing a weapon for example is a move action, and there are even some things that don't even necessarily involve using a single muscle, like directing the movement of a flaming sphere spell. If you can do any of those in a grapple, then you can dimensional slide as part of it.

Quote:
I'm basing this on the fact that Dimensional Slide otherwise [if any move action allowed] only works with the Withdraw action

Where is this fact coming from? Why can I not draw a sword, dimensional slide as part of it, then drink a potion or something as a standard, end of turn?

I'm not even playing devil's advocate here -- people in every game I've ever played in have used ALL types of move actions as valid for things that occur "as part of a move action" and nobody ever bats an eye.

"I sheathe my sword and as part of the move action (with BAB 1 or more), draw my axe" is a very commonly seen example.

The answer is "no". To use Dimensional Slide, you need to step 5ft, you can't do that while grappled (even though you're not disallowed a move action and Dimensional Slide is made as part of a move action, you still can't move while grappled).

Quote:
To use Dimennsional Slide, you need to step 5ft

This is not true, it does not say you need to step 5 ft to use dimensional slide. It says that using dimensional slide counts as using 5 feet of your movement.

Technically speaking: this is worded a consequence, not a prerequisite.

And intent/flavor/common sense speaking: this 5 feet would be from your travel through the astral plane or whatever is between the cracks that you're moving through, i.e. the movement is happening AFTER you're inside the crack story-wise. So it seems quite reasonable for it to be worded as a consequence and not as a prerequisite, actually.

So neither technically nor non-technically speaking should you need to be able to move 5 feet normally prior to being allowed to use this ability.

Okay, to use Dimensional Slide, you need to move. You can't move.

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Rub-Eta wrote:
Okay, to use Dimensional Slide, you need to move. You can't move.

THe feat doesn't say that either, it says you need to use a move action not to move.

"to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location" If this isn't moving, then what is it?

Though, well, the ability is very badly worded, it could be anything really.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mark Seifter has commented on the matter, for what that's worth:

Mark Seifter wrote:
andreww wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, this would be the Move Action known as the move action (the first action under the Move Action category on page 183). And if that doesn't confuse you yet, I have some race traits and racial traits too!
Following on from this, can an Arcanist use this ability as a means of escaping from a grapple?
It wouldn't work; you're grappled and thus can't move into the rift you opened up.

Rub-Eta wrote:
"to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location" If this isn't moving, then what is it?

It is the effect of the ability, and you need a move action to activate it,as the feat say, a move action.

Nicos wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
"to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location" If this isn't moving, then what is it?
It is the effect of the ability, and you need a move action to activate it,as the feat say, a move action.

The designer disagrees.

The part that says "...that she can step through..." is very convincing to me and as a GM, I would rule against being able to use this ability if grappled.

Ravingdork wrote:

Mark Seifter has commented on the matter, for what that's worth:

Mark Seifter wrote:
andreww wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, this would be the Move Action known as the move action (the first action under the Move Action category on page 183). And if that doesn't confuse you yet, I have some race traits and racial traits too!
Following on from this, can an Arcanist use this ability as a means of escaping from a grapple?
It wouldn't work; you're grappled and thus can't move into the rift you opened up.

The Move action/move action thing is quite ambiguous to use in a feat, but, well, it is an answer to the question.

Resoundingly no.

Rub-Eta wrote:
Okay, to use Dimensional Slide, you need to move. You can't move.

It doesn't say you need to move to use it. It says you need to do it as part of a move action. These are two different technical terms in pathfinder that are not the same thing.

For example, drawing a weapon in pathfinder is a "move action" but is NOT "moving"

So you could activate dimensional slide as long as you can do any move action that doesn't involve moving. You actually can draw a weapon or take an item out of a coin purse while grappled, so you can successfully choose that and then dimensional slide as part of it, as I see RAW.

Quote:
"to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location" If this isn't moving, then what is it?

I can see a GM potentially ruling that the actual dimensional slide IS movement, thus restricted by grapple. But I would personally find this to be not a rather poor ruling, since from a story perspective, it's clear from the description that the movement is happening in the astral plane etc., not in the arms of the grappler.

If somebody cut out a section of the grappler's arm, making an opening, then you would be able to walk out of grapple too, yes? Well the crack is inter-dimensionally accomplishing the exact same thing, then you're moving through that opening, the grapple no longer being relevant.

Saying that you still cannot move in any way "because you're still in grapple and din't make your check" even if the grappler's arms have been all disintegrated or made into gaseous form or something, that would be about on par with ruling that you can't move "because you're in grapple" even when there's a big gaping hole to another dimension right next to you leading into a place the grappler cannot reach you...

Crimeo...Mark himself weighed in on the matter. Give it up.

I think Mark is wrong on this one. He didn't design the Arcanist, after all... IIRC, he wasn't even part of the Paizo staff when the ACG classes were written.

Meh... I usually ban Arcanists anyway...

If they want to stop it from working then word the text so it is undeniable. Say the character must 5 foot into the crack, bam. Definitive.

Since they did not say it that way. I am left with my understand it is a move action like drawing a weapon.

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Crimeo wrote:
used ALL types of move actions as valid for things that occur "as part of a move action" and nobody ever bats an eye.

I'd bat some eyes to you! If you were in a game with me!

Crimeo wrote:
It doesn't say you need to move to use it. It says you need to do it as part of a move action.

True, but it says you need to use it as part of a move action and since it says how many feet it expends, that limits it to move actions to move a distance. So you wouldn't be able to do a move action weapon draw and use it. But moving 10 feet and using 5 additional feet for this, would work.

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Finlanderboy wrote:
Since they did not say it that way. I am left with my understand it is a move action like drawing a weapon.

Ultimately you may be left with table variance, because there will be tables (like mine) where the GM won't allow you to do so. End of discussion.

Not because they hate the rule, but because they don't believe the rule works your way and need to follow the rules as they interpret them. Otherwise known as RAW.

CampinCarl9127 wrote:
This is probably why nobody official weighs in on rules questions anymore. Because when they actually do everybody ignores them if they aren't on the same side.

I think that is a mistake. I think the world would be better if they officially answered more questions here either in forum posts or in FAQ.

The main reason used to say this should be done is "so you don't have to scour forum posts for answers" but it doesn't work that way. We the forum users will collectively remember and answer via links to forum posts.

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To weigh in, every ability in the game that lets you do something as its own action all say "as a [type] action". This ability, instead, says "as part of a move action". This means the ability is limited to move actions that you could already make. In addition, it goes on to talk about this action taking up 5 feet of movement from that action. There is only one move action in the game that involves feet of movement. This seems pretty clear-cut to me.

James Risner wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Since they did not say it that way. I am left with my understand it is a move action like drawing a weapon.

Ultimately you may be left with table variance, because there will be tables (like mine) where the GM won't allow you to do so. End of discussion.

Not because they hate the rule, but because they don't believe the rule works your way and need to follow the rules as they interpret them. Otherwise known as RAW.

CampinCarl9127 wrote:
This is probably why nobody official weighs in on rules questions anymore. Because when they actually do everybody ignores them if they aren't on the same side.

I think that is a mistake. I think the world would be better if they officially answered more questions here either in forum posts or in FAQ.

The main reason used to say this should be done is "so you don't have to scour forum posts for answers" but it doesn't work that way. We the forum users will collectively remember and answer via links to forum posts.

As long as the DM can provide a logical reason why they understand it that way. Saying I do not like it it is my table variance is not.

I have had DMs not allow me to drag an ally out of combat because there were no rules for it, and refused to accept to use drag. That does not make it right.

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Finlanderboy wrote:
As long as the DM can provide a logical reason why they understand it that way. Saying I do not like it it is my table variance is not.

The GM might have a logical reason, but if someone is firm on their interpretation and unwilling to accept the GM might read it differently they might not feel the GM has a logical reason. It doesn't make the GM's reason any less logical. To him.

James Risner wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
As long as the DM can provide a logical reason why they understand it that way. Saying I do not like it it is my table variance is not.
The GM might have a logical reason, but if someone is firm on their interpretation and unwilling to accept the GM might read it differently they might not feel the GM has a logical reason. It doesn't make the GM's reason any less logical. To him.

Having and providing are two different circumstances.

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Finlanderboy wrote:
Having and providing are two different circumstances.

Missed my point.

Providing and it being accepted or rejected are two different circumstances.

It's pretty obvious from reading the ability that the intention is that you need to move. One can rules-lawyer almost anything in this game, but deep down I think they know.

Don't be that guy.

It's still an very good ability. Also keep in mind that arcanists can have this *and* the Shift ability with various arcana.

I think the text is vague and could be taken either way, but Mark sounded pretty sure, so I think the intent is pretty clear. So, play it however you want in your group, but if something official comes out, it will almost certainly agree with Mark. Try not to complain if you think you got "nerfed".

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