I'll second a bog standard druid using wildshape and animal companion. Doesn't even have to be that complex.
And furthermore, with the right spell outlay, you become back up healer, diviner, nuker, magic item maker...
==Aelryinth
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But but but my computer is lying on my desk right now! ;-)
But but but my computer is lying on my desk right now! ;-)
Now that sir is very funny!
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Interesting thread and plenty of good ideas!
I might also suggest taking a look at the Battle Scion class in the New Paths Compendium
It fills the 'tank' and arcane caster roles extremely well, and can pretty easily be built to be a decent scout as well :)
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Given Hmm's input I would agree that arcane bloodline bloodrager is your best option. Other classes are much better at balancing the tank-scout-caster roles, but you don't need a character that is equally strong in all three areas. You need a character that is really good at melee, can scout, and has a few combat-oriented spells (the latter being your preference). That's the bloodrager. The arcane bloodline has the best action economy and also adds the dimension door spell.
And the bloodrager can also get a school familiar in exchange for their 1st level bloodline power, which could contribute a bit of extra stealth or some extra knowledge skills (with the sage archetype) if needed.
The last need of the party is spells which works for the blood rager as he cant cast outside of the rage and most of his spells are offensive based (but the bloodrager has the important ones that the op likes).
A bloodrager can cast spells both inside and outside of rage. It's true that most of their spells are combat-oriented, but if they want to throw up a Shield before busting in the door, they can do that.
Again I bow to you all for the amazing feedback you have provided thus far.
Hmm, thanks for chipping in - good to see you here :D
I had about two pages of comments written, and suddenly, when I was copy/pasting Gaming Ranger to thank him for a post that made me laugh HARD, I accidentally clicked his name... When I hit 'back' I was returned to a post with two lines....
In a nutshell, before I throw my laptop out the window... I LOVE Bloodragers, but their skillset, and the need to invest in STR, CON and maybe CHA, takes away from key stats like DEX and INT (not to say WIS for Perception) makes me hesitate. But what makes me cry the most, is casting ONE spell per day at level SIX. That hurts a LOT. I also was going to hint at dipping maybe Investigator, or an Archetype of Bard or Ranger or Rogue, to get the correct skillset.
It would seem that Magus synergies best with the needed roguish stats, even more so if I go Dex Magus (something I have been avoiding for some reason - I guess I feel the damage sucks for a frontliner, and I don't want to always depend on spells to hurt the bad guys). And they pack more spells (WAY more) than Bloodragers... Skills at Int 18... Mean about 6 per level - not bad, but not great since Perception, Stealth, and at least Disable Device are already spoken for...
I had also written extensively thanking Darksol for the detailed feedback, and disagreeing with him by saying Shield makes a HUGE difference in my opinion at early levels (mainly on someone wielding a 2-hander), and that Mirror Image makes a difference exactly against opponents that can hit me a lot :D
I had written to Skylancer4 saying that I was trying to build that character in Herolab, and hitting a snag in the fact that focusing on Charisma took away from Dex, and thus from stuff like stealth and acrobatics.
I had written saying that you guys almost convinced me into being a druid :D
I had written saying that I also LOVE Inquisitors and Rangers, but I am really wanting defensive and utility in Arcane spells, since I find divine casting more constraining in that aspect (maybe I don't know Divine well enough), and that I find some of the arcane spells really make a difference for a frontliner.
I had written much more... But now I can't remember everything sadly.. So now I need a smoke...
Oh yeah, and Battle Scion... Wow! Just wow! Thanks Marc - I definitely need to look at it.
I remembered something else - curiously enough, it is possible that the 'Undefined' in our group roster may take the role of scout, which will mean I will be with the 'tank' part. But even if that is the case, I would like to continue this exercise, if you guys will accompany me ;)
I agree with your take on the Dex Magus damage suffers when you are out of spells. However I do love their action economy at their stat needs line up with your goals. I'll put some more thought into it and see what I can come up with.
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Urban Ranger, or Dark Tapestry/Battle/Lore Oracle. Possibly vivisectionist (with trapfinder trait). Also maybe investigator. I've heard of some rather tanky stuff they can pull off using extracts(but that was in emerald spire since their mutagen lasts as long as the level does). Sorry. Can't really look at a bomb/gun properly.
Personally not too fond of bloodrager myself but it's probably preference. Also do not like looking at ACG, because it spells Advanced Cheese Guide to me.
<-- is old school.
If he needs to go more Scout/Tank, Stygian Slayer works well with either a Dex or Strength build. Although it doesn't get most of the spells listed, it does get Invisibility as a SLA and an ability to activate certain wands. It has the BAB and hit dice to do front line along with the skill points and class skill list to do scout. If a Slayer takes the Trapfinding rogue talent, it can handle those Disable Device checks -- unfortunately that wouldn't come in until 2nd level.
Perhaps a multi-class of Slayer and something else would give you everything you want.
Since it gets the ranger combat styles, you can even do a switch hitter by taking Ranger Combat Style with later talents.
Unless you are going to get 18's across the board, you WILL have to make choices. It's part of the game. If the biggest issue is skills, that is what magic items are for. Skill Enhancement magic items are pretty much dirty cheap. Boots/Cloak of Elvenkind just got you +5 to acrobatics and stealth for 5k gold and saved you 8 ability points into DEX. Never mind what you will be able to do with spells eventually.
I'm kinda wasted today, but wanted to share some observations after trying a couple of builds in Herolab (I went with STR builds for all of them, but I can pack a 16 Dex still):
- I still love Bloodrager's action economy, but they need a dip (trapper ranger?) to get a decent 'roguish' skill set, and the amount of spells they can cast per day is just awful;
- Bards are the skill kings, and their spell list is terribly versatile. However they miss out on a LOT of combat spells. A good UMD can make up for a couple of these if it doesn't get out of hand with 300 of them :D They LACK action economy in casting... Inspire Courage is great;
- Magus have the best spell list and action economy in casting - their roguish skill set sucks in every possible way though(again Trapper Ranger dip?), whether infiltration or face wise;
- I am tending towards STR investigator with a... Lore Warden dip for added feats. They have an amazing roguish skill set and toolbox, and a good Extract selection. HOWEVER they lack action economy since I really can't fit Urgathoa in any way... I dislike the fact that there is no way to avoid AoO when drinking an extract (5' step back if using a reach weapon?). And I really dislike not having Mirror Image, but since I would probably go Empiricist, I should be able to rock a wand for it.
Any thoughts on this?
P.S. Skylancer, I will be giving another go at your idea though ;)
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- Bards are the skill kings, and their spell list is terribly versatile. However they miss out on a LOT of combat spells. A good UMD can make up for a couple of these if it doesn't get out of hand with 300 of them :D They LACK action economy in casting... Inspire Courage is great;
This sounds true in theory. However in game play it's not the case. Before level 7 it is hard to get every thing you want done. However after bardic performance becomes a move action. This removes the main problem. At level 13 when it becomes a swift action it opens up a new set of options. I have played 3 bards to 10+ levels. The main problem bards suffer from is every one thinks they are only a support class. A well made bard can cover every role in the party. They might not be the very best in that role. They however can do it all with out much work.
I love Investigator's it quickly becoming one of my favorite classes (I'm playing one in Curse of the Crimson Throne AP). There is good action economy with Effortless Aid Investigator Talent (better for halflings) With your stats you can rock it. I don't think you need to dip and if you did what feats are thinking would provide enough pay off to justify it.
I love Investigator's it quickly becoming one of my favorite classes (I'm playing one in Curse of the Crimson Throne AP). There is good action economy with Effortless Aid Investigator Talent (better for halflings) With your stats you can rock it. I don't think you need to dip and if you did what feats are thinking would provide enough pay off to justify it.
If going Str Investigator, one (or maybe even two) level dip in Fighter (Lore Warden makes the skill cost much less hurtful) would go a long way towards the Dodge>Mobility>Spring Attack + Combat Reflexes combo, would it not?
Magus, and dip Investigator. You're INT-based, and thus will have a sufficient number of skills. Investigator will get you all the proficiencies you need and inspiration besides.
I still recommend Inquisitor.
That is a combination I hadn't thought about, for the simple reason that it will tax my BAB hard, which is probably not good for a frontliner?
Why do you still recommend Inquisitor? :D
- Bards are the skill kings, and their spell list is terribly versatile. However they miss out on a LOT of combat spells. A good UMD can make up for a couple of these if it doesn't get out of hand with 300 of them :D They LACK action economy in casting... Inspire Courage is great;This sounds true in theory. However in game play it's not the case. Before level 7 it is hard to get every thing you want done. However after bardic performance becomes a move action. This removes the main problem. At level 13 when it becomes a swift action it opens up a new set of options. I have played 3 bards to 10+ levels. The main problem bards suffer from is every one thinks they are only a support class. A well made bard can cover every role in the party. They might not be the very best in that role. They however can do it all with out much work.
That is partially my issue with Bards (even though I do like the class a LOT) - using your own words 'Before level 7 it is hard to get every thing you want done' :P
But what I was hinting at was the fact that they lack action economy in 'casting' specifically, even though Inspire Courage improves its time to activate.
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Interesting thread and plenty of good ideas!
I might also suggest taking a look at the Battle Scion class in the New Paths Compendium
It fills the 'tank' and arcane caster roles extremely well, and can pretty easily be built to be a decent scout as well :)
Again I bow to you all for the amazing feedback you have provided thus far.
[SNIP]
Oh yeah, and Battle Scion... Wow! Just wow! Thanks Marc - I definitely need to look at it.
Awesome! It's proven to be a very popular (and well reviewed) class. Hope yo have fun with it if you decide to play a battle scion!
Ok, I've been mulling this over for some time and I will have some additional ideas/questions up in a few.
However, and since I will most likely not playing the 'tank' part anymore, would it make sense to invest in Int, dipping maybe two/three levels in Empiricist Investigator to start, then going full out Magus for better combat spell choices?
@DoubleBubble: Actually by now I am only trying to accomplish two objectives - scout and melee dpr.
Would you suggest single class Bloodrager, or dipping somewhere along the way? :D
What I've found (and please keep in mind I am a fan of Bloodrager) is that I need to spread stats around too much (STR + CON + CHA at least), to actually pull off a decent Int, and thus decent Scout/Info gathering skills. And still you need to sink some traits into it. Would you agree?
Just to add to my previous post, and until I have a chance to post a full progression, my idea is to start Empiricist Investigator (Stats are S:18, D:18, C:14, I:14, W:13, C:9 - bumps going into Int to start with. Remember we get 2 stat points/level in this game :O) - immediately I have the full works of Scout/Skill gathering, which improves significantly at level 2 from Int to multiple important skills (from Empiricist).
I'm debating where the cross off point should be from Investigator to Magus (3 for Mutagen?), but what makes me want to go Magus is honestly the Spell list - it has everything I want in a martial/caster character, contrary to the Investigator (Mirror Image is an example :P).
I dislike the 2+Int Skill Points from the Magus, but with such Int synergy, I think I can still be pretty decent at the main ones, and a few others (Headband of Intellect may help :D).
Last but not least, I am wanting to go STR for a simple reason - I find the 1 level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler amazing on a Dex based Investigator (and even Magus?), but I dislike being tied up to a single weapon. I like versatility, and Str based I can simply pick up the best weapon that happens to come my way (regardless of it being a Rapier, Scimitar, Dagger, etc.).
Makes any sense?
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Scout and melee DPR, you might actually want to go investigator. Investigators have lots of skills per level, make knowledge checks fabulously and apparently are pretty tanky(never played one, just heard stories) once they get to business with all that barkskin, shield, mutagens. They also come with trapfinding :)
Magus is more of a - if you want to control the battlefield sort. Magus don't get perception as class skill, don't get the full set of knowledge, I would say investigators beat magus for scout role.
I would say pick a class and stick with it.
You can have your investigator pick up Mutagens as a discovery. That will improve his melee capabilities by giving a nice Strength boost. Look at some of the Hyde alchemist guides for more ideas.
As an investigator you will totally dominate all the knowledge skills. As you mentioned above you can also cover the scout needs.
I think that going from Investigator to Magus would actually make the group weaker as you tried to spread your abilities out too much. If you really must multiclass, you would be better off picking up a full BAB class than Magus.
The whole debate has to do with how I envision the character - we do have a main frontliner at the moment, so this would be a secondary one for sure, perhaps mainly a scout that in a fight works as a protector to those casting or shooting arrows (if they need protection of course).
But I also envision him as a 'surgical striker', quickly moving across the battlefield (Dimension Door anyone? Or Mirror Image plus Acrobatics through the bad guys?) to strike at that caster/shooter that is making short work of the group from a distance.
I am sure an Investigator can make for a very decent melee (and I even know hot to build it), and I honestly love all the ways they have to boost their skills, and even combat itself, but I'm not sure they are the best bet to accomplish what I have thought for the character.
On the other hand, single class Magus is hard pressed to perform decently as a scout - the Int bonus from Investigator seems like a really strong point in helping the Magus be better on that field (as well as the class skills, trap finding, etc.).
So, Just a Mort, I agree that an Investigator makes for a better scout than a Magus, but I am not looking only for the better scout, but also balancing it with better spells to cast for combat/utility/buff (I believe this may be accomplished with very careful choices in spells/extracts - Example: taking the Shield Extract, and dipping only 2/3 levels in Investigator, I shouldn't need to take it as a Magus since from Alchemist I'll get 2-3 minutes duration, which should be enough? Stuff like that).
And Bret, I fully agree on your assessment of the Investigator - completely rule skills and good performance as a scout, and of course Mutagen for huge boost. What I am thinking is that I could get some of that boost to scout and skills (not being as exceptional as the pure Investigator), but boosting his combat abilities by piling on Magus levels.
A last few thing that bother me are the fact that there are no level 0 Alchemical extracts (this is a minor one), the fact that the mechanics for drinking in combat is such that I do not have a chance to do it without a kick to the face (except for a 5' step back of course, but I mean as opposed to Concentration), and the limited options to speed up drinking (as compared to Quicken Spell, even if in rod form. I do not want to follow Urgathoa, nor be a drunken barbarian, so all I have is Fast Drinker, but only if the potion is already in hand, or tail :D)
I hope you guys don't mind me going on like this - I actually enjoy it. Though I promise there is an objective in mind ;)
Mutagen lasts for 10 minutes / level. Drink it before battle.
Although you couldn't D-Door, you could either buy an item that allowed it by 11th level (Magus 10th level assuming only 1 level dip), use gaseous form (alchemist 3rd level, so 7th level), use freedom of movement (alchemist 4th level, so 10th level), or a host of other possibilities.
As for the thing about detect magic, you could always try to find a Discerning Wayfinder or a lantern of auras. In those cases where none of the spell casters can figure it out, mix up an elixir of Identify.
I am doing this now in a game playing a Animal Domain Inquisitor. Took Trap Finder trait and Slippery trait. With the oracle spells and abilities I am stealthy, tanky , have some great DPS with my pet who gives me flanking and am skill monkey lite (since some have to go into knowledges to start).
Works great especially with the spell Bestow Insight for doing traps.
DoubleBubble, my main concern at the moment is scouting and melee combat. Your post seems more geared toward tanking? :D
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Swashigator or Inspired Blade Swashbuckler/Vivisectionist Alchemist for Dex focus
Str Focus: Beast-morph Alchemist/Drunken Brute Barbarian (Natural attack maniac)
Vivisectionist Alchemist/Drunken Brute Barbarian 2 (Weapon based Str Monster that tags on Sneak attack damage). Grab a good balance of Extra Rage Powers, Extra Discoveries and potion Glutton
Oath of Vengence Paladin 2/Bard- Grab a reach weapon and Control the Field while buffing allies and using bard skills out of combat.
You have lots of options....Many of the above can do all 3 roles well.
your feats and class combinations will dictate which Roles you focus more on. It is more in your hands now to decide between the options.
Master Fruian, good to see you here *bows*
But you have not commented on my crazy notion of mixing Investigator and Magus ;)
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The issue with Dipping Magus is the Loss of CL from both sides.
Lets say you took Empiricist Investigator 3/Magus 2.
At level 5 you can spell combat for a shocking grasp of 2d6 and buff Via Investigator Alchemy. But on either list you do not have access to 2nd-3rd level buffs yet and wont see them till level 6+.
Mirror image seems to be a Key spell on your defense lists and getting to that will require Level 7. That seems to be too much a loss for me.
Magus is one of my top 5 favorite classes. Many people can attest they are very powerful and should not be dipped. I agree with them for the Loss of Caster Level and slower progression really hurts performance.
So for me I would never do it. But if you feel brave enough then Roll one up and throw it at mock scenarios and see how well he will work out. But I feel you may be rather Disappointed in the combat abilities being behind.
As far as a Magus scout...you have invisibility.
As far as a tank you have: Armor, Mirror Image, Shield, and other things for buffing
For a Caster you have a very decent list...but Dipping will halt the Casting side of it. And the Magus is fueled by having a full CL. The bigger the better when it comes to spell combat.
My vote is Full Magus or Find a different way to go about it. But I have NEVER been disappointed in my Magus the multiple times I've played them. I've played the Shocking Grasp scimitar monster, Kensai Whip Debuffer, and Str build. Each one is very good and works. The class is very deceptive on paper. Typically till you play you do not see how strong the class fully is.
Psychic Detective investigator's spell list might fit you better than the
standard extracts.
Starting with barbarian 1 makes up for the missing mutagen a bit, and gives a few rounds of non-precision damage boost, could be worth being behind 1 on spells and studied combat. A 2nd level would be tougher to justify..
Albion....
You have a party full of casters: a witch, 2 oracles, a sorcerer and an inquisitor. Let us buff you, and have you be the best damn investigator you can be.
You don't need to do it all. Let us do some of the heavy lifting. We're a team, right?
Hmm
I will Hmm, I will :D
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One of my pet peeves about rogues, is trying to get a report out of them after their successful scout foray. Based on the assumption that the rogue didn't get eaten by a Grue while scouting.
Rogue: "I see 2 bushes and something with lots of worms on it in the next room."
Me: "Do you know anything about them?"
Rogue: "No"
Rather get this scenario:
Investigator: "I see 2 shambling moulds and a worm that walks in the next room"
Me: "Awesome! Lets bring out the flurry of snowballs!"
IMO: Inspired Blade 1 / Impiricist X is going to get you what you want. Put your 18s in Int and Dex. Pick up Fencing Grace at first level. For that matter pick up Fast Learner at first level as well.
That will give you a standing AC of 19 at first level and easily over 25 by 3rd (that can be boosted with Penache), as many skill points as a Rogue with higher results, all skills as class skills (with a couple talents... why don't Investigators get Survival?), a ton of tricks up your sleeve and most of the "spells" you want.
FYI - I am playing that build right now, in fact. It is very versatile and fills the niches you want better than anything I can imagine. In fact, I'm so confident that it ends up being better at all those roles simultaneously post 2nd level that I would challenge anyone to do it better. And it does it with so much style and, dare I say... penache. ;)