On the subject of no rez spells
I like The Alexandrian death houserules. You don't immediately go unconscious until you're below your negative max hitpoint value. Healing spells work no matter how many negative hitpoints you have. You're not permadead until you've been past your death threshold for 24 hours. Rez spells don't exist, because there's no need for them to.
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I've always thought of Tier 5 as "good at their specialization, but unable to contribute anywhere else." For me, this puts Tier 5 as a poor choice, because I want my players to be able to specialize AND contribute in other circumstances. Fighter is the classic Tier 5 - very good at combat and damage, but unable to do anything when combat stops. (Below that is Tier 6, unable to even do well in their own specialization and unable to contribute elsewhere, like the core rogue or core monk).
Based on these definitions, I would rather see Tiers 2-4 than Tiers 3-5.
T2 still includes 9th level casting, and that's something I'd like to avoid. I mean ideally it'd be T3/4 games, but sometimes you want to play something a little less optimized, like a gunslinger or brawler, and I like a game where those can jive. They're still weaker, but really once you're not using magic, you generally have a T4 ceiling without TOB style stuff in the first place.
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There is another option to the death issue: Ultimate mercy.
A pally with 20 char can get it as soon as 6th level, taking the extra lay on hands feat, or at 10 without more investment that the feat tax plus ultimate mercy.
There is another option to the death issue: Ultimate mercy.
A pally with 20 char can get it as soon as 6th level, taking the extra lay on hands feat, or at 10 without more investment that the feat tax plus ultimate mercy.
Or lower the prerequisites and costs, since you are dealing with the solution to one of the key problems that comes up when you remove a lot of the common classes.
So say...16 CHA and 10 use or your maximum uses per day. That could work out.
Admittedly, if your paladin dies, you are out of luck, but A.) same if you lost your cleric, and B.) your paladin went down? What are you doing wrong?
Surprise round ambush by dire tiger while relieving self in the wilderness.
Well there is your problem- adventurers do not go to the bathroom.
Surprise round ambush by dire tiger while relieving self in the wilderness.Well there is your problem- adventurers do not go to the bathroom.Clearly there's a martial/caster discrepancy in bathroom safety. I mean, a wizard wouldn't just get murdered by a dire tiger, would they?
I just hope Paizo doesn't nerf barbarian bathroom breaks.
Maybe? Depends on what immediate action stuff he has, along with initiative.
I mean, tigers have grappling, which can be a problem.
Heck, the safest characters would probably be rogues and other dex characters. And a monk, obviously.
Doubt they could do much to barbarians. I mean, most people can't do much to barbarians, but I mean in the armor/bathroom department. I view armor as mostly a problem for heavy sets- what problem could a breast plate cause?
T2 still includes 9th level casting, and that's something I'd like to avoid. I mean ideally it'd be T3/4 games, but sometimes you want to play something a little less optimized, like a gunslinger or brawler, and I like a game where those can jive. They're still weaker, but really once you're not using magic, you generally have a T4 ceiling without TOB style stuff in the first place.I've always thought of Tier 5 as "good at their specialization, but unable to contribute anywhere else." For me, this puts Tier 5 as a poor choice, because I want my players to be able to specialize AND contribute in other circumstances. Fighter is the classic Tier 5 - very good at combat and damage, but unable to do anything when combat stops. (Below that is Tier 6, unable to even do well in their own specialization and unable to contribute elsewhere, like the core rogue or core monk).
Based on these definitions, I would rather see Tiers 2-4 than Tiers 3-5.
Fair enough. At most, we're talking s out a fine line of separation here.
Its not the classes that can cast 9th level spells that are the problem.
The problem is 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.
My solution would be to leave the classes in but to remove those spells.
To compensate for this to the point that people would still want to play one of those classes I wold do these things.
When a character woukd have gained access to 7th level spells all of their save DC'S gp up by 1. By an additional 1 when they would have gained 8th and another with 9th.
Additionally those spell slots are not lost. 7th level spell slots can be used for level 1 and 2 spells. And spells prepared in those slots are affected by any metamagic feat that would only raise the spell level by 1.
With what would be 8th level spells those slots are used for 3rd and 4th level spells and spells in those slots and now the ones in the '7th' level slots can be affected by metamagic feats that would raise the level by 2. Then 9th slots become 5th and 6th. And all slots can be affected by metamagic up to 3 levels higher.
This keeps those 9th level spell classes in the game and gives players a reason to play them without keeping the world shattering spells in the game.
This leads to possible quests or rituals of massive power that could produce 7th 8th and 9th level effects.
Its not the classes that can cast 9th level spells that are the problem.
The problem is 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.
My solution would be to leave the classes in but to remove those spells.
To compensate for this to the point that people would still want to play one of those classes I wold do these things.
When a character woukd have gained access to 7th level spells all of their save DC'S gp up by 1. By an additional 1 when they would have gained 8th and another with 9th.
Additionally those spell slots are not lost. 7th level spell slots can be used for level 1 and 2 spells. And spells prepared in those slots are affected by any metamagic feat that would only raise the spell level by 1.
With what would be 8th level spells those slots are used for 3rd and 4th level spells and spells in those slots and now the ones in the '7th' level slots can be affected by metamagic feats that would raise the level by 2. Then 9th slots become 5th and 6th. And all slots can be affected by metamagic up to 3 levels higher.
This keeps those 9th level spell classes in the game and gives players a reason to play them without keeping the world shattering spells in the game.
This leads to possible quests or rituals of massive power that could produce 7th 8th and 9th level effects.
It's not just the spells that are the problem. My Goliath Druid can go toe-to-toe with bad guys right alongside the fighter dealing just as much damage with maybe a little less AC. And he still has his spells, his animal companion, and more skills than the fighter.
In my Carrion Crown game, our sorcerer would cast combat ending spells with 4th and lower level spells (create pit plus black tentacles is a wicked combination) while everyone else just stood there.
Meanwhile, the fighter dealt damage and then could walk away from the table at the end of combat and no one would even notice. The rogue constantly had to be brought back from unconsciousness in battle, and worse.
It's gotten to the point where when I make a caster character, I tend to focus on buffing specifically so I don't overshadow everyone else. Hell, my last buffing focused wizard still spent the majority of his time in combat casting Summon Monster, because those spells are just that good.
It's gotten to the point where when I make a caster character, I tend to focus on buffing specifically so I don't overshadow everyone else. Hell, my last buffing focused wizard still spent the majority of his time in combat casting Summon Monster, because those spells are just that good.
I do exactly the same in the 3.5 campaing that I'm current playing. My DM gave to my Druid the Greenbound feat coupled with a custom version os Animal Growth that applies to Plant Type. It's a bit sad to remember that I can summon creatures more powerful that the Barbarian.
There is no argument that there is a tier disparity. Yet much of the problems you listed do not exist in the games I play in.
We don't use the rules I suggested because I am not the DM. So, we have classes of all tier working with full casters and still having their moments to shine.
Lower tier classes like rogue and fighter can still be effective, it just takes a lot of effort and good character design.
Lower tier classes like rogue and fighter can still be effective, it just takes a lot of effort and good character design.
And requires a good dose of help from the main Spellcasters, that can with a flick of wrist solve almost/any problem.
Bring in Spheres of Power and you have your full casters back with lots of other options, all still at tier 2-4.
With Spheres of Power you don't have to get rid of the original full casters as well. Each casting class has an archetype that replaces it's casting with spheres, probably the best feature in the book since it basically allows you to rebalance casting without having to rewrite the system or dismissing classes.
Better yet, the Fighter has easy access to casting since it's two feats away from being a 1/2 spherecaster and still has the bonus feats to keep him a fighter. Its to the point where I don't think that most of the classes even are tier 6-5 with fixes such as Unchained and slight boosts of useability with cheap third party products like the Talented Monk/Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier and especially because when spherecasting obsoletes any advantage they have that is almost the only thing that they do rather than simply having access to any magic bullet for a multitude of situations. I can't even say that APs get harder, even if they keep their normal casting abilities because in my experience (This may not be totally true as I've only read or GMed 5 APs and fully played 2 so your milage may vary.) APs seem to be balanced around very mildly powered PCs and having a party of optimized and competent characters will outright wreck an adventure path if played straight. But if you're playing your own campaign its a simple matter to plan your encounters accordingly. Scratch that, its easier to plan because you don't have to plan pretending that the Schrodinger Wizard exists that will render challenges trivial because that's virtually the situation you're up against, plus the added goofiness of retreating to rest after going 50 feet into the dungeon.
Sorry for the persistent rants about Spheres of Power but Up until this product I was tentatively fine with casting using mountains third party material to be able to produce the kind of casters me and my players...
I must check out spheres of power if it's this highly recommended.
Thanks!
We very nearly started our last campaign without full casters. But one dude really resisted and wanted to play a Cleric. Too bad. I think it would have been a very fun departure from Rocket Tag.
I must check out spheres of power if it's this highly recommended.
Thanks!
Check it, it's amazing.
Check it, it's amazing.I must check out spheres of power if it's this highly recommended.
Thanks!
Indeed. I heard about it a week ago and bought it because of malwing's review. Read the book over a few days and now I'm recommending it. It's easy to understand with intuitive rules (especially if you're already used to the BAB system).
Yes, Malwing has sold me as well! I hope he's getting commission!
Yes, Malwing has sold me as well! I hope he's getting commission!
A while back the 3PP community asked the fan base to review their products if we've purchased them. Malwing and I were two of many customers to do so, but Malwing topped all of us in his reviews (except Endzeitgiest, who is already the top reviewer). Not only in sheer number, but also in quality. Plus, he owns a lot more books than I do. :)
We did it as a favor to the publishers we like, and - for those products we didn't like - in hopes of helping them improve.
The game becomes less fun, less representative of works of the high fantasy genre, and a lot of players will stop playing.
Which ones?
It's a pretty lousy representative as it is.
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Yes, Malwing has sold me as well! I hope he's getting commission!A while back the 3PP community asked the fan base to review their products if we've purchased them. Malwing and I were two of many customers to do so, but Malwing topped all of us in his reviews (except Endzeitgiest, who is already the top reviewer). Not only in sheer number, but also in quality. Plus, he owns a lot more books than I do. :)
We did it as a favor to the publishers we like, and - for those products we didn't like - in hopes of helping them improve.
I have more but I'm actually way behind on that. I had to deal with preparation and aftermath of my wedding plus moving plans and hobbies fell behind. I'll get to 100 reviews soon though.
But yeah, Spheres of Power has been the end all be all for my caster problems. Still high fantasy but the linear progression makes it so that casters don't just get all the spells that trivializes everything with no prerequisite or repercussion, more types of casters are available, and everything is downright easier. That way skills become worthwhile and martials actually have room to do something. It also bypasses the argument of 'losing out' with your full casters because they're still powerful just not in a way that renders other aspects of characters useless. This is why I started a thread called '3pp Master Race' a while ago. Third party products can seriously fix everything and with the addition of Pathfinder Unchained you can just describe what you want your game to be like and I can recommend what turns the game into that. In fact once I'm done with some prep work I will stat a thread promising to find any concept from my collection and recommend it.
Like, I've almost never read or watched a Wizard who refused to pick up a sword and swing that sumb$!#+.
I mean did the apprentice in Dragonslayer pick up a bag of scrolls to fight the dragon? Nah. He magiced up a spear sharp enough to slice an anvil in half and went after ti for a good murder poking.
Elric was a Sorcerer with a strength score of like 4 by D&D standards.
He killed people with swords.
A lot.
He was rather sour about it too.
I think the women channelers from Wheel of Time mostly didn't bother I never read past the 4th book so I'm unsure on that. At the same time though they had dudes in armor soul bonded to them so they didn't have to. And Rand along with all the other male channelers had no qualms about just swording a dude to death.
Now you do have guys like the wizards from the Sword of Truth series (shudder) that aren't like that. But most of their magic seems to be pretty low tier.
The Coldfire Trilogy is close but there are no traditional learned wizards and even Tarrant's greatest magical works amounted to what was careful study, low level manipulation, and use of knowledge that was all but forgotten or forbidden due to how ridiculously easy it was to spawn monsters from your own nightmares.
Now, Wizard of Earthsea is damn close. I am rather fond of that book.
Am I missing something? It might be a legitimate concern going down this path if that's the case.
You mean Gandalf the Wielder of Glamdring? The Beater? Slayer of the Goblin King?
Have you read The Black Company series by Glenn Cook? The Taken are some pretty bad ass s!&~, and not to be trifled with. They cast on a 7th-9th spell level scale.
Great series. Highly recommend it!
I was toying with the idea a while ago of converting the wizard into either a 6th level caster or reducing the number of spells per day in some way. The most interesting classes to me are the 6th level casters that get lots of unique class abilities that tie them to their theme, and while I can certainly see how spell selection is meant to be like that, there's some big difference that I can't place my finger on.
Basically an attempt to make all schooled-wizards different from one another.
I think I'll do this in the next game I DM. I've always had a problem with martial/caster disparity and this sounds like a decent solution that doesn't involve using 3pp, but I may look into using spheres of power later on, especially if it is as good as everyone here is saying.
Oh for the record, I like mages in literature who hit their enemies with edged weapons too :)
Beyond the fact that most examples of "wizards" look closer to Magus that PF wizard, where do you see examples of things wiz CAN DO beyond Golarian/Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/ect (ie the D&D specific stories)? I mean, the PF wizard looks closer to divinity than a wizard. The iconic fantasy wizard? Can cast blast spells, kinda hold their own, and have some minor utility. Generally speaking the things you see are:
Blasts
Illusions
Minor charms
Transmutations
Ritualistic summons (ie planar ally, not SM)
Divinations
These uber specific things wizard can do you dont see. You dont see them getting wishes on demand. Stopping time is usually out of the question. Teleportation is usually handled by a object or requires intense concentration...
Honestly I feel like the Magus is still the best example of traditional fantasy wizard. The base or the Staff Magus
Though others, like Anomander Rake (who actually might be using both gestalt and mythic), seemed to enjoy murdering people with a sword when he didn't just polymorph into a dragon or play at being a high mage.
Teleportation is usually handled by a object or requires intense concentration...
Teleportation in Steven Brust's Dragaera books has always felt pretty close to D&D teleportation to me. Though the consequences of a bad teleport there are a lot more harsh, and Teleport Trap and Forbiddance seem a lot more accessible.
Though others, like Anomander Rake (who actually might be using both gestalt and mythic), seemed to enjoy murdering people with a sword when he didn't just polymorph into a dragon or play at being a high mage.** spoiler omitted **
Teleportation is usually handled by a object or requires intense concentration...Teleportation in Steven Brust's Dragaera books has always felt pretty close to D&D teleportation to me. Though the consequences of a bad teleport there are a lot more harsh, and Teleport Trap and Forbiddance seem a lot more accessible.
Oh yeah. In most fantasies, Teleportation is risky business as you can either :
Not completely teleport (like in Harry Potter)
Teleport Into things... which kills u
I will say if nothing else this thread has encouraged me to pick up sphere's of power.
I was toying with the idea a while ago of converting the wizard into either a 6th level caster or reducing the number of spells per day in some way. The most interesting classes to me are the 6th level casters that get lots of unique class abilities that tie them to their theme, and while I can certainly see how spell selection is meant to be like that, there's some big difference that I can't place my finger on.
Basically an attempt to make all schooled-wizards different from one another.
I don't think I could bring myself to design a 9th level caster fully.
They feel so, cold, and lifeless to write. You either make them boring with few non-spell features or risk going into Shaman territory.
I will say if nothing else this thread has encouraged me to pick up sphere's of power.
Yep. Have a hard copy on the way, and a PDF download because I have a friend who plays PF and he's only got the use of one arm so he needs digital resources.
Beyond the fact that most examples of "wizards" look closer to Magus that PF wizard, where do you see examples of things wiz CAN DO beyond Golarian/Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/ect (ie the D&D specific stories)? I mean, the PF wizard looks closer to divinity than a wizard. The iconic fantasy wizard? Can cast blast spells, kinda hold their own, and have some minor utility. Generally speaking the things you see are:
Blasts
Illusions
Minor charms
Transmutations
Ritualistic summons (ie planar ally, not SM)
DivinationsThese uber specific things wizard can do you dont see. You dont see them getting wishes on demand. Stopping time is usually out of the question. Teleportation is usually handled by a object or requires intense concentration...
Honestly I feel like the Magus is still the best example of traditional fantasy wizard. The base or the Staff Magus
Either that, or kineticists.
I say that since it encapsulates the wizards that are, perhaps, restricted to a tight set of domains/themes and simply find creative ways to apply that power to problems (earth can eventually do spells like stone shape or move earth, air can fly or use the wind to listen at a distance, water/ice could be used to freeze people to the ground or making walkways, fire can cause blinding light or burn away even spells themselves, etc.)
It also has the advantage of not playing with vancian magic and the spell slot system. IE- "Oh, I can shoot no more fireballs....but I can shoot a dozen or so scorching rays, and I have the power to cast 5 9th levels spells like wish all I want". No, kineticists do more "I have overused my powers, and now I am weakened".
I can appreciate spell slots and vancian magic, but typically if it is tied to a system that is more like paizo's alchemists- you have to prepare some potion or talisman, and that is why you are limited in the number of each spell you can use. But when you are just working with raw magic like wizards or sorcerers... it can get a bit... funny.
Beyond the fact that most examples of "wizards" look closer to Magus that PF wizard, where do you see examples of things wiz CAN DO beyond Golarian/Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance/ect (ie the D&D specific stories)? I mean, the PF wizard looks closer to divinity than a wizard. The iconic fantasy wizard? Can cast blast spells, kinda hold their own, and have some minor utility. Generally speaking the things you see are:
Blasts
Illusions
Minor charms
Transmutations
Ritualistic summons (ie planar ally, not SM)
DivinationsThese uber specific things wizard can do you dont see. You dont see them getting wishes on demand. Stopping time is usually out of the question. Teleportation is usually handled by a object or requires intense concentration...
Honestly I feel like the Magus is still the best example of traditional fantasy wizard. The base or the Staff Magus
Either that, or kineticists.
I say that since it encapsulates the wizards that are, perhaps, restricted to a tight set of domains/themes and simply find creative ways to apply that power to problems (earth can eventually do spells like stone shape or move earth, air can fly or use the wind to listen at a distance, water/ice could be used to freeze people to the ground or making walkways, fire can cause blinding light or burn away even spells themselves, etc.)
It also has the advantage of not playing with vancian magic and the spell slot system. IE- "Oh, I can shoot no more fireballs....but I can shoot a dozen or so scorching rays, and I have the power to cast 5 9th levels spells like wish all I want". No, kineticists do more "I have overused my powers, and now I am weakened".
I can appreciate spell slots and vancian magic, but typically if it is tied to a system that is more like paizo's alchemists- you have to prepare some potion or talisman, and that is why you are limited in the number of each spell you can use. But when you are just working with raw magic like wizards or sorcerers... it...
You're just adding more arguments to the pro-Spheres of Power propaganda machine.
I will say if nothing else this thread has encouraged me to pick up sphere's of power.Yep. Have a hard copy on the way, and a PDF download ...
I did the same. Look forward to reading it tonight.
You're just adding more arguments to the pro-Spheres of Power propaganda machine.
I am a pro kineticist lobbiest. thank you very much.
You're just adding more arguments to the pro-Spheres of Power propaganda machine.I am a pro kineticist lobbiest. thank you very much.
Mechanically kineticist is very similar to sphere casting.in fact it's quite easy to outright replicate kineticist. Both advance via talents, both have at will abilities with some sort of resource pool, both advance in abilities that are a consequence of powers they already have. Arguments in favor of kineticist work for sphere casting.
Just wanted to add myself to the "people convinced to buy Spheres of Power by Malwing" count. One of the best RPG purchases I've made! I have so many new character ideas based on it (and the expanded options), I hardly know what to do with myself.
