I'm curious how other DMs handle their spellcasting players who use spells with costly material components.
The way I see it, there are three possible systems:
1. Allow your players to cash in the money when they cast the spell and assume they would have bought that component anyway.
2. Allow your players to set aside a certain amount of their liquid cash as sort of a spellcasting-fund. If they want to cast a costly spell, they must have enough money in this fund. Maybe only allow them to add to the fund while in town?
3. Be super harsh and argue that for realism's sake, you wouldn't be able to cast something like Resurrection if you do not happen to own a diamond worth 10.000gp. And how, in the middle of the forest, will you procure this diamond? This approach was my initial reaction to the question, but I realise this makes the whole spellcasting-schtick a whole lot more tedious and difficult.
What would you say, allow them complete agency over which components they would have or be draconic about it?
3 is standard - the PCs are expected to purchase their giant diamonds in advance on the off-chance they might need them. A generous GM might allow 1 or 2.
By the time you can cast Resurrection you can probably teleport to the giant diamond shop.
Generally #3, with some leniency the first time.
Thank you for your input!
What would you think about dynamic components for lower level spells, such as the Onyx for Animate Dead? Would you ask your necromancers to keep Onyxes of all sizes ready?
In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(
I use 3. Spellcasters are already over-powered as it is. They're going to need to find their material objects, which also requires using the settlement rules and spending actual time finding them.
As far as Animate Dead - yes, if he wants to cast a 3 HD bloody skeleton he better have the exactly correct onyx.
As an aside, anything under 1 gp value I assume is in the material component bag. Oh, and you better have two or three or four of them because a smart opponent is likely to sunder it.
For lower cost components (e.g., the silver dust for consecrate), I use option 3 and the players typically plan in advance. This creates some drama as well, as, with limited supply, players have to decide when and where to use their costly component spells. (E.g., Do they consecrate their camp shrine to Sarenrae or do they save the silver dust in case they need to un-desecrate an altar to Lamashtu?)
For really costly components (like the 10K diamond), I like to use finding the component as a pretext for a side quest. It doesn't come up often enough to get tedious, and it makes casting high level, expensive spells feel less like something anyone could do if they could afford to shop at premium boutiques. That's just a play-style thing, of course. I also tend to make NPC casting services for the high level stuff less pump-and-pay.
The downside to this approach, with something like resurrection, is that it takes the dead PC out of play for a session or two. I allow a temporary tag-in in the form of a hireling or ally for those sessions, just so the player isn't left out at the table.
Another useful illustration of this approach is plane shift, which requires a focus key attuned to the desired plane. Instead of hand-waving those, I like to make finding them a task in itself - as long, of course, as it doesn't get too involved or derail the main plot too much.
NOTE: This "make-them-work-for-it" approach works better when combined with not using XP directly (so the side quest doesn't jump the PCs ahead of where they need to be in the main quest), but leveling as needed. It can also help if you have a larger than expected party to keep everyone in line, XP-wise.
In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(
Well, in Pathfinder your spellcasters should always have a spell component pouch. They're incredibly cheap. That handles all the non-cost components.
Well, in Pathfinder your spellcasters should always have a spell component pouch. They're incredibly cheap. That handles all the non-cost components.
You at least can sunder or steal a spell component pouch, but when you are casting without it... :p
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I eliminate most costly material components in favor of a modified version of the 'XP cost' system from older D&D variants.
Basically, the various costly spells (and magic item creation) have an XP cost assigned to them and you keep a running total of these costs. Total XP spent on such effects can never exceed total XP earned. If you don't have enough XP the spell simply fails.
This prevents players from being able to craft infinite magic items or cast infinite wish spells just as effectively as gold piece costs, without the drawback of the original system where they actually 'lost XP' and could wind up going down a level (producing considerable book-keeping headaches).
That said, I do keep a few of the costly components (and focus items) and have rare components that can change the standard effects of spells (e.g. a rare incense that causes a fireball to deal half holy damage). Those are fun for 'flavor' and variation, but I find the 'XP cap' method is a better way of limiting over-use without creating in character log-jams when the specific component for a needed effect just isn't available.
I generally use a modified 3. As the players get up in level I stop worrying about the costs for lower level spells. When a 17th level caster casts stoneskin, the 250gp isn't worth tracking.
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Unless there's a particular reason to focus on it, I've got better things to do at the table.
In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(
This is unfortunately pretty common in my experience. One of the best arguments against prepared spellcasting is that it either gives the players carte blanche to make up their prepared spell list on the fly, or it requires the DM to do a lot of tedious bookkeeping, and inevitably forces him into meta-gaming spirals of despair in which it becomes impossible to play enemies authentically because he knows the wizard's spells in advance.
Honestly, I think the game would be better if Wizards, Clerics and Druids ceased to exist, and Sorcerers and Oracles were the only full casting classes (with Paragon Surge banned, of course).
Honestly, I think the game would be better if Wizards, Clerics and Druids ceased to exist, and Sorcerers and Oracles were the only full casting classes (with Paragon Surge banned, of course).
The D&D Next solution is good enough to me: Select a number of spells per day equal to your level plus your Cast Modifier to memorize, and use these spells spending your slots. So you don't need to prepare 3 Fireballs, prepare just once and spend 3 or 3rd level slots to cast ir multiple times.
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Unless there's a particular reason to focus on it, I've got better things to do at the table.
so much this. I'm a solid 1. Shopping is not high adventure for me. If they have the gold cross it off and cast.
I do insist on prepared casters having a clear spell list though.
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What would you think about dynamic components for lower level spells, such as the Onyx for Animate Dead? Would you ask your necromancers to keep Onyxes of all sizes ready?
I don't think my group has ever used Animate Dead. I probably would be OK with having the correct value of Onyx. I'm the only person in my group who actually enjoys shopping for consumables and I think that level of bookkeeping would be more annoyance than it's worth.
Definitely don't just let people deduct gold, though.
Option 3. Players who gravitate toward primary casters learn to plan ahead. They scrutinize spells, prioritize them, figure out which ones can go into scrolls and wands, and generally map out how best to deploy their arsenal. Acquiring expensive material components plays into that mindset and is a minor inconvenience at worst.
If a player balks at this notion, figure out why. Are they bad at bookkeeping? Perhaps another player can help them out. Does every shopping trip take up half the game session? It's okay to say "you find a shop and buy what you need", especially in the later levels when PCs are expected to have tremendous wealth.
I'm a firm 1. In a game where isolation is an important factor I might run it differently, but in typical games it's not the fun part. So I don't focus on it.
I officially run 3, but since I don't micro-manage/audit my spellcasters to check that they've pre-bought all their component I wouldn't be surprised if some of them ran it as 1 or 2 and just never mentioned it. If the cleric's player says he has a 10k diamond, I'll believe him unless given a good reason not to.
Depends. Non-cost material components are assumed to be on hand, so long you have a spell component pouch on hand. Occasionally I as the player to spend another gold piece to restock. More costly, but not prohibitively expensive components I generally allow for the gold piece cost substitute. They aren't rare, and your character presumably stocked up in town. As this category includes things like restoration, it's generally helpful for the whole party. Now, super expensive or rare components, yes you're going to actually have to spend time and effort tracking down.
Yes, being lenient may help casters "get away" with things, but going too far in the other direction tends to suck some of the fun out of the game, and that is by far a worse sin in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more balance between casters and non-casters in theory, but in practice my main concern is that everyone is having fun.
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In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(This is unfortunately pretty common in my experience. One of the best arguments against prepared spellcasting is that it either gives the players carte blanche to make up their prepared spell list on the fly, or it requires the DM to do a lot of tedious bookkeeping, and inevitably forces him into meta-gaming spirals of despair in which it becomes impossible to play enemies authentically because he knows the wizard's spells in advance.
So you're saying you play with people who need to cheat to "win" Pathfinder?
That's too bad. I suggest find better players.
In all the games I've ever played in, even when I was a child, I never saw anyone do what you described here. I have seen people cheat; I didn't play with them long (they just don't get the idea of RPGs if they feel they need to "win" so bad that they cheat to make sure they "win" - if I couldn't teach them by discussion or show them by example then I found other players).
I once played with a GM who was so bad that every player cheated just to survive. I even cheated after a while. The GM even said he expected it so he made the game harder. I stuck around for a while because I was desperate for a game and the story and the action were really fun, but the competition and the plain old not-getting-the-point of it all drove me away.
In any case, carry on. But don't blame the class feature for what really bad players do to circumvent it.
To the OP, definitely make them pay in advance. Spellcasters rule the galaxy and the only thing that partially slows them down is the fact that they have to plan ahead a little, they cannot just rule the galaxy every time a spontaneous whim arises.
Every GP they invest in their pocket full of gemstones (etc.) is a GP they didn't invest in their Craft Magical Win Buttons feat, so that's a plus too. For example, a wizard with 100,000gp could carry JUST 10,000gp in his handy haversack and spend 90,000 GP to craft an uber item. If something goes wrong and he needs an expensive component, he just reaches into his haversack and says "Ah, I have that diamond right here!" as the player crosses the cash off of his sheet. No limitations AND he has an uber item. The alternative is that he carries one of every expensive component he needs, maybe totaling up to 60,000gp, so he literally has these valuable things in his handy haversack. When something goes wrong, he reaches into his haversack and says "Ah, I have that diamond right here!" as the player crosses the actual diamond off of his sheet. The good news is that he does NOT also have that uber item - whatever he crafted for his remaining 40,000gp is probably not nearly as awesome.
To the OP, definitely make them pay in advance. Spellcasters rule the galaxy and the only thing that partially slows them down is the fact that they have to plan ahead a little, they cannot just rule the galaxy every time a spontaneous whim arises.
Every GP they invest in their pocket full of gemstones (etc.) is a GP they didn't invest in their Craft Magical Win Buttons feat, so that's a plus too. For example, a wizard with 100,000gp could carry JUST 10,000gp in his handy haversack and spend 90,000 GP to craft an uber item. If something goes wrong and he needs an expensive component, he just reaches into his haversack and says "Ah, I have that diamond right here!" as the player crosses the cash off of his sheet. No limitations AND he has an uber item. The alternative is that he carries one of every expensive component he needs, maybe totaling up to 60,000gp, so he literally has these valuable things in his handy haversack. When something goes wrong, he reaches into his haversack and says "Ah, I have that diamond right here!" as the player crosses the actual diamond off of his sheet. The good news is that he does NOT also have that uber item - whatever he crafted for his remaining 40,000gp is probably not nearly as awesome.
Before 9th level spells crop up, how much in the way of expensive components does a caster need? 60kgp is an absurd amount unless the caster expects to be repeatedly wishing or they want to be able to permanency a bunch of things on the fly. Most casters just need enough for a couple of Limited Wish, 1 or 2 castings of Resurrection/Raise Dead/Reincarnation+Restoration and maybe some cheaper stuff for utility things, and that's enough for an entire group of people. Spells to raise the dead take up such a high amount of funds that for most casters having components for everything else becomes a trivial expense(and the cost of raising the dead isn't reduced by letting the casters just use GP directly). It's not really that much worse for the casters in terms of power level for them to need specific components generally, so tossing out all that annoyance and bookkeeping is certainly understandable.
I also write most spell components off as a waste of table time.
My table gets by on duct tape, homebrew and gentleman's agreements not to break the game, so scrapping spell components is a no brainer.
3 is RAW and probably a balancing factor, but f+&$ it, too much bookkeeping to do it that way.
Option 1 is what I go for. Easiest to run, and I can trust my players not to try and abuse it.
Besides, it means they're buying less permanent gear on the off chance they need that 25 gp in cash they have laying around for a Wish.
The reason that 'costly material components' is an actual term is because they are set apart from normal items.
They are big and expensive. They are for important and or high power spells. Yes, you are supposed to keep track of them.
I can see you letting some costs slip, like things that cost 100 gp when you are getting into like...level 15 or so. Because...come on- that is chump change, your milk money basically. So doing the pool thing there and just say 'we set that much away for that' seems fair. Cause you can by the stuff by the dozen whenever you go to town.
3 is RAW and probably a balancing factor, but f&$% it, too much bookkeeping to do it that way.
This is why I think so many people whine about things like, "Martials need nice things! Casters are so much better!"
Of course they are!
When casters don't have to plan out components, can always sleep uninterrupted, and are basically having 3/4 of the things that hinder them hand waved away of course they are more powerful!
If the spell says that you need 250 GP worth of diamond dust then by the Fates that Wizard better have bought either that much diamond dust and stored it for later use, or bought a diamond and ground that sucker up long before he needed to cast stoneskin.
Its the player's responsibility to keep up with it and be honest. If they ain't got it they can't cast it.
That planning and prep is part of the cost of phenomenal cosmic power.
No, not really. It's more one guy goes from hitting things with a sword to hitting things really well with a sword, while the other goes from commanding a rope to wiggle around to telling gravity to take the day off by level 13, which doesn't require anything expensive at all.
The reason that 'costly material components' is an actual term is because they are set apart from normal items.
They are big and expensive. They are for important and or high power spells. Yes, you are supposed to keep track of them.
I can see you letting some costs slip, like things that cost 100 gp when you are getting into like...level 15 or so. Because...come on- that is chump change, your milk money basically. So doing the pool thing there and just say 'we set that much away for that' seems fair. Cause you can by the stuff by the dozen whenever you go to town.
This.
So you're saying you play with people who need to cheat to "win" Pathfinder?In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(This is unfortunately pretty common in my experience. One of the best arguments against prepared spellcasting is that it either gives the players carte blanche to make up their prepared spell list on the fly, or it requires the DM to do a lot of tedious bookkeeping, and inevitably forces him into meta-gaming spirals of despair in which it becomes impossible to play enemies authentically because he knows the wizard's spells in advance.
I think it is actually mainly a problem of laziness and/or forgetfulness. I'm not saying I've seen pervasive "schrödinger"-style spell slot cheating, but I've definitely seen "oh, I memorized that today"..."so why isn't it written down?"-type incidents with prepared casters.
Prepared casting is highly problematic for a variety of reasons; this is just one of them. I also strongly dislike the "there's a spell for that" syndrome that has taken over since 3.5 where there are obscure utility spells to solve damn near any problem in the game. You don't run into problems with sorcerers having the key to every lock like you do with wizards. It also seems to be the case that many GMs do a poor job of enforcing the correct costs for spells known on wizard PCs, and even when they do those costs are too low in Pathfinder. I've seen plenty of "we'll just share our spells" shenanigans between wizards, which is a good way to throw the campaign out of balance because spells known are a very valuable commodity.
If wizards had to pay scroll prices to learn their spells and this was taken out of their WBL, it would be a good step towards putting the class back in balance.
So you're saying you play with people who need to cheat to "win" Pathfinder?In games that I played, never I saw a DM that required low cost materials, like if everyone have Eschew Materials. The DMs also never ask for the list of prepared spells of the non-spontaneous spellcasters, and that'a a major buff to them. :(This is unfortunately pretty common in my experience. One of the best arguments against prepared spellcasting is that it either gives the players carte blanche to make up their prepared spell list on the fly, or it requires the DM to do a lot of tedious bookkeeping, and inevitably forces him into meta-gaming spirals of despair in which it becomes impossible to play enemies authentically because he knows the wizard's spells in advance.I think it is actually mainly a problem of laziness and/or forgetfulness. I'm not saying I've seen pervasive "schrödinger"-style spell slot cheating, but I've definitely seen "oh, I memorized that today"..."so why isn't it written down?"-type incidents with prepared casters.
Prepared casting is highly problematic for a variety of reasons; this is just one of them. I also strongly dislike the "there's a spell for that" syndrome that has taken over since 3.5 where there are obscure utility spells to solve damn near any problem in the game. You don't run into problems with sorcerers having the key to every lock like you do with wizards. It also seems to be the case that many GMs do a poor job of enforcing the correct costs for spells known on wizard PCs, and even when they do those costs are too low in Pathfinder. I've seen plenty of "we'll just share our spells" shenanigans between wizards, which is a good way to throw the campaign out of balance because spells known are a very valuable commodity.
If wizards had to pay scroll prices to learn their spells and this was taken out of their WBL, it would be a good step towards putting the class back in balance.
You haven't seen a well optimized sorcerer. Between Ring of Spell Knowledge, Mnemonic Vestment and all the ways to add to spells known they can do something pretty similar to a prepared caster with a little optimization.
I know what those items are capable of achieving, and I also know their costs. The Mnemonic Vestment is great and cheap but the long list of scrolls needed is not, and at best this gives the Sorcerer one silver bullet per day without bleeding gold. The Ring and Pages of Spell Knowledge are actually pretty expensive for what they do; I'm not at all certain I'd call these items "well optimized", and yeah, I see plenty of sorcerers.
But yes, the mere existence of 1001 utility spells is also a problem. Of course, the easiest solution to all of these problems is simply to do away with the Magic Mart, and balance access to spells/items as a GM on a case-by-case basis.
Definitely 3, but can be a little forgiving at first for people new to game or group.
It is an important balancing factor. Take True seeing, at 250 a pop for the eye ointment it prevents the spell from being spammed and causes a significant amount of funds to be tied up in non liquid assets (no one besides the right merchant or spell caster is going to barter for ointment).
I'm used to players being constantly a few coins from poverty as they spend everything they can on magic items, hand waiving even 50gp components is a significant boon.
Besides the favor is great, finding a chest full of onyx is nearly a hook all in it's own.
Unless there's a particular reason to focus on it, I've got better things to do at the table.
As a caster, I might write (between sessions), "To do: buy 1000gp diamond dust" in my inventory. When I get to the shops, if that happens at the table rather than between sessions, I subtract 1000gp from my gold, and cross off "To do: buy" from the above text. Now I have 1000gp diamond dust. It has taken all of five seconds of table time.
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3. Be super harsh and argue that for realism's sake, you wouldn't be able to cast something like Resurrection if you do not happen to own a diamond worth 10.000gp. And how, in the middle of the forest, will you procure this diamond? This approach was my initial reaction to the question, but I realise this makes the whole spellcasting-schtick a whole lot more tedious and difficult.
It's not super harsh, it's the rules, and also the answer to "why isn't the murdered king resurrected the day after?". As long as the material component has insignificant cost, it's granted that characters can resupply regularly and effortlessly (unless they stay for a very long time in places where there is no access to any shop or whatnot that may allow them to resupply), but things with actual costs are a different matter.
The spells that require them do so because they tend to be more powerful than other spells of the same level, so characters need to spend extra effort and resources to get those components.Then, going into specific case, getting a 100 gp opal may be easy, but a 10000 gp diamond is on a totally different scale. Diamonds are already rare on their own; more so the big diamonds with such extreme value; and more yet in a multiverse where you can bring people back from death with them. Anyone who has them, would hardly sell them (which also means that those who have those diamonds probably acquired them in different ways than merely buying), and many would try to steal the diamonds from those who have them.
Getting your hands on such gems should be in itself the focus of an adventure. And when you finally get them, assuming you don't immediately burn them in a casting, you don't want to go around adventuring with them in your pockets. Along with the risk of losing them at any moment (random example: you get caught and imprisoned by someone, your possessions taken away), you'd attract all sorts of scryers, thieves, assassins and monsters.
But yeah, those who just like a hack & slash game can buy any thing they fancy from the most common of street vendors. Or even from thin air, just burning their coins.