Summon Monster 6 is a poor substitute for True Seeing. It doesn't last as long, and it doesn't, for example, enable you to target an invisible enemy with a spell.
Back on subject - to me, saying, "You have 1,000gp so I'll let you use that in place of the spell component," is extremely soft GMing, like saying, "You don't have to buy scrolls, you can just use whatever scroll you want at any time and then cross off some money."
Back on subject - to me, saying, "You have 1,000gp so I'll let you use that in place of the spell component," is extremely soft GMing, like saying, "You don't have to buy scrolls, you can just use whatever scroll you want at any time and then cross off some money."
I'll agree they're similar in shape, but they're not similar in scope. Especially for prepared casters when they're getting home regularly.
I can see the case when it's a large percentage of their wealth, or even cash on hand. But when you're 15th level, the 250 gp to cast stoneskin isn't a meaningful tie-up for their liquidity.
We switched to Option 1 a long time ago. It was a good decision for our group in terms of gameplay speed and enjoyment.
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or it requires the DM to do a lot of tedious bookkeeping
Why would the DM need to do the bookkeeping of memorized spells? Do your DMs also keep a running tally of the fighter's HP? Or the rounds of Rage left for the Barbarian?
This is the player's work to do. Decide which spells to memorize in the morning, and marking cast spells down. Keeping tabs on your character's resources.
"Casting" a spell you didnt memorize is cheating. Very simply stuff.
I'm curious how other DMs handle their spellcasting players who use spells with costly material components.
3. Because its RAW. Casters dont need a houserule to make them EVEN MORE flexible.
If it has no costs it is in the Spell Component Pouch.
If it has a cost expressed in GP you need to buy it when shopping.
Just the same as the Fighter can not suddenly transform a part of his 500 gold purse into a Masterworked Heavy Mace when he encounters a Skeleton to break the DR/bludgeoning.
We use #3 as we're sticklers for the RAW.
Check this out. According to the Ultimate Equipment Guide, there's no way to generate high priced precious gemstones within the rules for some of our most common spell components. For example, you can't make a skeleton or zombie of more than 2 HD with animate dead since onyx gemstones cap out at 65gp each.
Spells that rely on such things really should allow for multiple gems whose sum equals the given value.
Hm... Maybe if you pay a bank to inscribe a note of credit onto an onyx, it becomes worth whatever the bank will exchange it for?
Also, how does magic determine the value of the gemstone? A diamond (or onyx or whatever) has market value that can vary greatly by region/setting. If there are tons of diamond mines in the area, then the diamond from Absalom may not be worth 500gp any longer.
It is all just needlessly complicated. Allowing for player spending GP equivalent just makes things flow better. "Realistically", the player would have purchased what they needed beforehand.
Pick up a 10gp diamond. Give it to your friend. Have him sell it to you for 5,000gp. It's now worth 5,000gp. Raise away! :P
Material component costs are mundane, unless you don't want them to be. Want to give the group a reason to visit a nearby village? "You need spell components, and this village is known to have a small market catering to spellcasters and other magic-users."
Want your group to visit a cave? "There is a cave nearby where bats and bat guano can be found. You just realized you're running pretty low."
Want to make death a serious obstacle to the players? The local priest informs you "You all have a good reputation, but there is something my order wants; there is a statue with two enormous diamonds for eyes in a nearby dungeon. I'll agree to raise one of you from the dead in the future in exchange for both diamonds. The other one is for ...someone special."
The things player characters want and need are potential hooks for the GM to use. Use your imagination and be cool about it.
Summon Monster 6 is a poor substitute for True Seeing. It doesn't last as long, and it doesn't, for example, enable you to target an invisible enemy with a spell.
Back on subject - to me, saying, "You have 1,000gp so I'll let you use that in place of the spell component," is extremely soft GMing, like saying, "You don't have to buy scrolls, you can just use whatever scroll you want at any time and then cross off some money."
mr.Matthew Downie let's agree that we disagree :)
planar binding is the same spell lvl as True seeing and ofc its not same option as True seeing but i would say its pretty good replacement
especially with lil "cheez" like to use magic jar (debatable with outsiders) on creature you just summoned/binded .but i will Agree on this statments "Back on subject - to me, saying, "You have 1,000gp so I'll let you use that in place of the spell component," is extremely soft GMing, like saying, "You don't have to buy scrolls, you can just use whatever scroll you want at any time and then cross off some money."
for my Table option 3 work rly rly well
my players dont use a lot of costly spell and if they need it.
They will just buy it when they will arrive in town (with exceptions for insane rare materials )
or party wizard just cast teleport 2x timesPS
I'm really sorry if my post sound little arrogant or hostile
my only excuse for that is:
i'm not native english speaker/writer
I find planar binding to be more commonly three spells, magic circle vs [alignment], dimensional anchor, and planar binding. If regularly used the circle is often made permanent. Even then it can take days to convince an extra planar being to aid you, and unless you have a habit of carefully murdering each of them without revealing yourself word gets around about who you are and what you're doing. You also just fail one in twenty times.
On top of that I've seen multiple groups come to strong even existential agreements over its use, binding powerful planar beings often brings various concerns.
Planar binding is an over powering spell, but brings plentiful opportunities for any canny gm.
Curious on gem stones, while expensive diamonds must be singular, I treat onyx like diamond or gold dust, you either have more or less of it, ie while I would write '3 diamonds worth 1500gp each, i would just note 1000gp worth of onyx not 1 50 gp onyx, 4 200gp onyx etc.
Expensive spell components are also a back door method of controlling certain spell use for example I usually anecdotally make rubies rare and difficult to find and procure.
For the people who hand wave material components, do you also hand wave potions, or a spare mace, rope, a silver dagger, vials of holy water? if you give the wizard free convertions it seems only fair for others to selectively drink potions as needed.
We use #3 as we're sticklers for the RAW.
Check this out. According to the Ultimate Equipment Guide, there's no way to generate high priced precious gemstones within the rules for some of our most common spell components. For example, you can't make a skeleton or zombie of more than 2 HD with animate dead since onyx gemstones cap out at 65gp each.
I think that's a bit too much RAW, if you follow it strictly. Remembering that rules are there to help flesh out the game, not to limit it, those are guidelines for the standard, but don't necessarily exclude uncommon occurrencies of greater value. It's a fantasy world, we're supposed to use fantasy. That includes maybe dropping in a castle-sized onyx gem worth more than anything else in the world, if we fancy. Of course you won't find it at your usual jewelry shop.
Just the same way as the entries in the Bestiary stat out the common monster of a specific kind; that doesn't exclude that at least 1/10 of the same race has something different (class levels or whatnot).
This is a great tool, because you can add gemstones to treasure.
I often like to include costly material components as part of loot, like if you slay a big dragon, there might be one or two 25K diamonds in his hoard for wish spells/tome crafting.
I use improv to generate random costly components in towns, often requiring Gather Information checks with DCs based off how powerful the spell the component is for is.
I also am a big fan of fabricate, which sadly to me is a trick I had to teach my players. E.g. they found some diamonds in town that were worth less than 1500 each, but wanted some worth 1500. I told them to just buy enough to where your value exceeded 1500, then fabricate them into one diamond for the spell. It totally works that way.
It's also not a bad way to spend craft ranks, to put together a gemstone like that.
I also really like esoteric components from Unchained, and often include those as treasure also.
I'm curious how other DMs handle their spellcasting players who use spells with costly material components.
The way I see it, there are three possible systems:
1. Allow your players to cash in the money when they cast the spell and assume they would have bought that component anyway.
2. Allow your players to set aside a certain amount of their liquid cash as sort of a spellcasting-fund. If they want to cast a costly spell, they must have enough money in this fund. Maybe only allow them to add to the fund while in town?
3. Be super harsh and argue that for realism's sake, you wouldn't be able to cast something like Resurrection if you do not happen to own a diamond worth 10.000gp. And how, in the middle of the forest, will you procure this diamond? This approach was my initial reaction to the question, but I realise this makes the whole spellcasting-schtick a whole lot more tedious and difficult.
What would you say, allow them complete agency over which components they would have or be draconic about it?
Baseline 3, 2 when it's about spells that are low level compared to the party level.
1 during downtime.
Option 3 only for those spells where a specific costly material component is listed (generally listed parenthetically in the components line). Gathering such components is part of adventuring and becomes the basis of quests.
For material components with a negligible cost we just assume that when you buy a spell component pouch it contains all low-cost components for all the spells you are currently able to cast, and you are assumed to be gathering components from the environment constantly and the cost of such is not tracked as part of group treasure. We also do not require that casters pull a specific material out of their pouch; merely having the pouch in hand is sufficient. For example, I have never said: "I see that spell requires a bit of animal hair, how are you separating that from the bits of human hair, spider web, and other fibers in your pouch?" Instead, when you cast a tiny bit of the appropriate material is consumed without the need for you to fish it out.
The only times negligible-cost components have ever mattered at our table are those few times when due to circumstance a caster doesn't have them. I had my entire party fall into rapids and get tumbled and nearly drowned for 10 rounds before going over a waterfall. When they hauled-out into the bank they were attacked. The wizard had lost most of his components and certainly didn't have any spider web or a pinch of flour on him. The other time, and it is equally rare, is when someone makes the effort to make a combat steal maneuver and grabs your component pouch. In that case, you can't cast spells with components you no longer have on your person. Not because you can't afford them, but simply because you don't have them. The rogue gets that much for his successful combat maneuver, and for guessing right on which of 10 pouches to snag.
So if wizards, sorcerors, clerics etc can just mark off 250 gp whenever they want to cast true seeing I assume the same group allows fighters to mark off 300 gp whenever they want to down a potion of fly or water breathing?
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So if wizards, sorcerors, clerics etc can just mark off 250 gp whenever they want to cast true seeing I assume the same group allows fighters to mark off 300 gp whenever they want to down a potion of fly or water breathing?
It's a bit of a different deal there (Wizards have to prepare the spell already that day, so they planned ahead at least SOMEWHAT), though generally if it's an emergency, or something the player meant to buy but forgot to mark off, yeah I'll allow it.
On occasion I'll mark off gold from their party fund for things like scrolls of high level healing spells that their Cleric NPC will have "bought in advance" when they really need them (a near TPK due to INSANE dice bias towards the NPC with a Keen Falcata for one).
More commonly, I don't track ammo or encumbrance either. It's a matter of reducing book keeping, not balance in this case.
So is option 2 more of a "I bought all these costly components, but I don't know what they exactly are and I just spend a flat amount on them. When I cast spells using them, I just subtract the gp value from this pool I created."?
If so, that's great if it works in your games, but it invalidates this Arcane Discovery's main attraction.
My biggest pet peeve when DMing is when players want me to hand-waive rules that ends up invalidating options from the book. Expanding what those options do is fine, but letting someone gain the benefits of a powerful feat without having to take the feat is not a means of reducing book keeping, it simply isn't fair to the players other than the spellcaster who is no longer faced with that tax because like it was brought up why is that more fair than having the BDF characters having X potion on hand if they just spend a flat amount on supplies as well?
There isn't a right or wrong answer here. It is just a matter of the group's preference, which is what the OP was asking.
Clearly, #3 is what is written in the rules. We don't play that way because we play once every two weeks (if we're lucky) and have tended to water down everything that takes away from gameplay.
If so, that's great if it works in your games, but it invalidates this Arcane Discovery's main attraction.
That feat is like a better Spell Focus for shared spells. The gem thing is just gravy.
So your argument is... that we shouldn't restrict spellcasters? Because you're not saying anything except "it's a restriction". Again, and?I answered #3, I do think it is an important restriction. The fellow with the dwarf face avatar was challenging the relevance of trade goods mattering as any sort of meaningful restriction.
Assuming I'm the dwarf face :-) I would clarify my position to say that if you're able to regularly visit town, the pre-purchase vs. gold tracking after the fact is only relevant if they have much more liquid cash.
I wouldn't let you cast wish from an arcane bond off of gold on hand if you have 26,000 gold, but if you have 5,000 noting that 250 gold is tied up in diamond dust isn't an important restriction. The spell slot is the more important allocated resource. At least in my games/experience.
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I'm not interested in playing a game of Spell Component Bookkeeping. My preferred method is #1.
My assumption, as a GM, is that a caster has access to all the mundane spell components or foci they need to cast any of their spells, so long as their inventory includes a spell component pouch. Through the Magic of Roleplaying (TMR), they're constantly restocking their supply of mundane components while they're adventuring, resting in town, or shopping.
For more expensive components (anything with a GP value), they mark off the appropriate amount of gold whenever they cast the spell. After all, a caster isn't going to prepare a spell that he doesn't have the necessary components to cast.
An exception is the rare situation where I want obtaining a spell component to be a quest in itself. There may be a few other exceptions, but they're either very rare or setting driven.
-Skeld
Thank you for your input!
What would you think about dynamic components for lower level spells, such as the Onyx for Animate Dead? Would you ask your necromancers to keep Onyxes of all sizes ready?
For something like this I would just have them say they buy ______ worth of onyx and just mark it off as it is used. You are actually supposed to track each onyx, but it's more bookkeeping than I think is neccesary.