Adamantine daggers do what?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Imbicatus wrote:


No, they aren't the cost of making an weapon adamantine is a flat +3000 gold added to the cost of a weapon of that type. You don't even need to pay extra for masterwork, as it is included in the price.

I guess I created a consistency between alchemical silver and other materials where one didn't exist. Any insight on why they work in dissimilar ways?


Matthew Downie wrote:
The adamantine wire saw can even cut through adamantine - it's effective against hardness up to and including 20, instead of below 20 like an adamantine weapon.

...but for some reason it can still only be used 5 times before you need to replace it(it says the replacement cost yet specifies no extra uses).... it seems kind of brittle for adamantine. And it also takes 5-10 minutes per inch of metal apparently... doesn't the dagger do that far faster?

Grand Lodge

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M1k31 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
The adamantine wire saw can even cut through adamantine - it's effective against hardness up to and including 20, instead of below 20 like an adamantine weapon.
...but for some reason it can still only be used 5 times before you need to replace it(it says the replacement cost yet specifies no extra uses).... it seems kind of brittle for adamantine.

Genuine imitation adamantine?


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Figures... its probably just adamantine tipped. Those cheap sons of b*tches.
XD


Just cast mend on the wire. I agree though, either the wire is out of line with adamantine items, we're interpreting adamantine incorrectly, or adamantine tools have different rules than adamantine weapons.


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Thewms wrote:
M1k31 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
The adamantine wire saw can even cut through adamantine - it's effective against hardness up to and including 20, instead of below 20 like an adamantine weapon.
...but for some reason it can still only be used 5 times before you need to replace it(it says the replacement cost yet specifies no extra uses).... it seems kind of brittle for adamantine.
Genuine imitation adamantine?

Everyone knows "Genuine Imitation" is the sincerest form of extortion.....


ErichAD wrote:
Either the wire is out of line with adamantine items, we're interpreting adamantine incorrectly, or adamantine tools have different rules than adamantine weapons.

I wouldn't go looking for logical consistency. The gauntlets that come with adamantine armor - are they usable as adamantine weapons? If so, what do I have left if I sell them? If not, what are they made of? Do the knees of my adamantine platemail penetrate DR if I knee a golem in the groin? Why can't you re-use adamantine sling bullets? Do they just sink into the floor and become irretrievable?


The wire is logical to have limited uses.

Usually such thin wire saws are made from an elastic wire covered with very small particles of an extra hard material, so as to create thousand of diminutive ridges.

As you use the wire, the covering hard substance slowly dislodges from the soft metalic wire, and in the end of it's life you have a stripped clean, useless wire.

The item in question, I believe, is an exact copy of a real life diamond saw, which actually uses diamond dust over steel wire.

If it was made of a solid body of adamantine it would be too rigid to be of real use.

Edit:
That's kinda the reason for the cost as well.
Basically, you buy steel wire covered in adamantine dust.


shroudb wrote:

The wire is logical to have limited uses.

Usually such thin wire saws are made from an elastic wire covered with very small particles of an extra hard material, so as to create thousand of diminutive ridges.

As you use the wire, the covering hard substance slowly dislodges from the soft metalic wire, and in the end of it's life you have a stripped clean, useless wire.

The item in question, I believe, is an exact copy of a real life diamond saw, which actually uses diamond dust over steel wire.

If it was made of a solid body of adamantine it would be too rigid to be of real use.

Now I wonder...How is "mending" supposed to fix that? Does the adamantine "grow back"? or does it just heal your battered wire that now can't cut a thing?


M1k31 wrote:
shroudb wrote:

The wire is logical to have limited uses.

Usually such thin wire saws are made from an elastic wire covered with very small particles of an extra hard material, so as to create thousand of diminutive ridges.

As you use the wire, the covering hard substance slowly dislodges from the soft metalic wire, and in the end of it's life you have a stripped clean, useless wire.

The item in question, I believe, is an exact copy of a real life diamond saw, which actually uses diamond dust over steel wire.

If it was made of a solid body of adamantine it would be too rigid to be of real use.

Now I wonder...How is "mending" supposed to fix that? Does the adamantine "grow back"? or does it just heal your battered wire that now can't cut a thing?

I would rule that it doesn't.

You start with steel wire covered in adamantine dust.
When out of uses, the item isn't " broken", it's just out of dust.


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This actually seems consistent with other spells...

Think about how you can't cast raise dead, resurrection or even True Ressurection on someone who died due to old age.

So, 'Mending' and 'Make Whole' can bring items back to full intact state if they were broken (through magic or mundane means) before their natural life ended... however, if they are simply worn out... then no - they cannot be brought back.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

How does one make adamantine dust?


As easily as someone made diamond dust in real world in 1900 and before

Since you can shape adamantine (crafting, etc) that means that there are byprofuts, slivers, dust, etc.

Instead of throwing the dust away, you actually use it.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
How does one make adamantine dust?

It's a byproduct of sawing adamantine with an adamantine wire dust saw. Duh.

Quote:
Since you can shape adamantine (crafting, etc)

That doesn't really answer the question, it just shunts the question to "How do you craft adamantine?"

I would suggest that it's all forged at some insane temperature, and not machined at all. Although that would not really allow for any dust to be produced.


Didn't you know? Adamantine ore is already shaped as armors, weapons and tools.

The serious mechanical answer is that if you can deal 42 Fire damage or more at once you can melt it.


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Fine.

Buying an Adamantine ice cream scoop - for tunnelling with.


Quote:
The serious mechanical answer is that if you can deal 42 Fire damage or more at once you can melt it.

Ah so everything is CAST?

Shadow Lodge

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Crimeo wrote:
Ah so everything is CAST?

Welcome to Pathfinder!

Shadow Lodge

Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

You realize that paper that's actually as thick as a stone wall would be SUBSTANTIALLY tougher than a single sheet, right?


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Kthulhu wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?
You realize that paper that's actually as thick as a stone wall would be SUBSTANTIALLY tougher than a single sheet, right?

Except it would have 0 hardness and only so much HP. There are rules for this.


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Everyone realizes that they need to make mechanics for a game, and thus we end far from reality? (A paper wall 10ft thick wouldn't have hardness 0 irl, etc)

As for diamond dust it's really simple:

Similar to how stone is weaker than tempered steel, yet a stone rotating sharpening stone STILL eats the metal away and sharpens it irl

Adamantine blades need to be sharpened after tempering. Probably by a porous steel sharpening stone. Thus DUST.

In game doing 21+ damage, "damages" the dull blade till enough is shaved off to make it sharp.

Heh, with enough "str" (rotating power) you could make a solid adamantine object into a pile of dust with just paper, in fact, mechanics 100% disregard the composition of the "attacking" material.


Quote:
Similar to how stone is weaker than tempered steel

Steel is stronger than stone in ways that matter for fighting, like modulus of elasticity, ability to take and hold an edge, tensile strength, etc.

However, most stone is still significantly harder than steel (note that pathfinder simply gets this incorrect, unless all stone in pathfinder is gypsum or something?). Hardness matters specifically for abrasion and not much else. Thus, humans have leveraged this to their advantage by rigging a contraption that almost exclusively causes abrasion without hitting any other weaknesses of the stone, allowing the exploitation of this one way in which stone is useful for metalworking.

This would not work if the grinding stone were not harder than what you're grinding. A wooden sharpening wheel wouldn't work to sharpen a blade (it might push the edge back into shape like a leather strop does for a shaving razor, but not grind it or make any dust), and likewise a steel wheel wouldn't make dust on an adamantine sword.

A wheel must be harder than the sword for sharpening/honing/dust.

One thing that might work though is since you can melt adamantine, somehow spraying the molten adamantine through a nozzle of some sort into a fine mist into a water trough.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Adamantine dagger vs. Stone walls is just an expensive piton... real useful for climbers if they have two as they could then climb perfectly smooth walls wolverine style... you occasionally see wolverine slash through thin metal doors and walls but you don't see him being used as an excavator or tunnel boring machine...


You also [rarely] see wolverine do a little tunneling such as pulverizing a tunnel through a cave-in.

He generally doesn't do it because it takes way too long for very little result. Why spend half an hour hacking at a thick earthen wall when it takes only a few minutes to find a door and hack through that instead.

Part of this is likely because Wolverine doesn't adventure in a dungeon environment. [And on the occasion he does hopefully the team has Shadowcat to deal with that.]

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Addendum to last: punching adamantine daggers through stone still requires great strength (or to be an unchained rogue 3 with finesse training: dagger)

Try pushing a nail through wood with your thumb or try embedding a large steel knife in a log... cutting a tree with an axe is a heart attack risk factor if I've ever seen one...


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
You realize that paper that's actually as thick as a stone wall would be SUBSTANTIALLY tougher than a single sheet, right?
Except it would have 0 hardness and only so much HP. There are rules for this.

A sheet of paper has hardness 0 and 1 hit point. A 100-page spellbook has hardness 5, hp 10. It does not have hardness 0 and 100 hit points.

Combined materials may have different properties from their component parts.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

A five foot thick paper sheet is big giant slab of redwood lumber... or worse ;)


kyrt-ryder wrote:

You also [rarely] see wolverine do a little tunneling such as pulverizing a tunnel through a cave-in.

He generally doesn't do it because it takes way too long for very little result. Why spend half an hour hacking at a thick earthen wall when it takes only a few minutes to find a door and hack through that instead.

Part of this is likely because Wolverine doesn't adventure in a dungeon environment. [And on the occasion he does hopefully the team has Shadowcat to deal with that.]

well, tbf he does also have that unique method of "trapfinding" in that he barely has to worry about setting them off...


Metal Sonic wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
If you can dig out of prison with a spoon, imagine how much more quickly you could do it with an adamantine dagger.
Thanks for validating my point.

I can corroborate digging out of prison with a spoon. My grandfather did this to escape a Communist prison camp in the 40s.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Addendum to last: punching adamantine daggers through stone still requires great strength (or to be an unchained rogue 3 with finesse training: dagger)

Try pushing a nail through wood with your thumb or try embedding a large steel knife in a log... cutting a tree with an axe is a heart attack risk factor if I've ever seen one...

Wood has hardness, which resists. Punching adamantine daggers through stone walls is more like trying to push a nail through flesh or embedding a steel knife in someones torso.


Matthew Downie wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
You realize that paper that's actually as thick as a stone wall would be SUBSTANTIALLY tougher than a single sheet, right?
Except it would have 0 hardness and only so much HP. There are rules for this.

A sheet of paper has hardness 0 and 1 hit point. A 100-page spellbook has hardness 5, hp 10. It does not have hardness 0 and 100 hit points.

Combined materials may have different properties from their component parts.

But the spellbook is an Hardcover

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Because of the layering, a five foot roll of paper would have WAY more hit points then a comparative volume of wood, as well. As well as picking up a hardness rating.

Start layering pretty much anything and you can pick up a lot of strength and durability in different directions. An old professor of mine noted how he was working for a company that figured out how to overlay polymers and metals in three different directions, vastly increasing the strength of the material. They were intending it for use on airplane wings. However, it lose so much flexibility with the strength gain that they ended up not being able to find a use for it, and it's sitting somewhere in the company archives, unused.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I would like to point out that using a wire saw to remove a door does NOT necessarily bypass traps on the door and lock, which will probably get triggered when you take the door apart.

It will get around the lock, however!

==Aelryinth

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Jeraa wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Addendum to last: punching adamantine daggers through stone still requires great strength (or to be an unchained rogue 3 with finesse training: dagger)

Try pushing a nail through wood with your thumb or try embedding a large steel knife in a log... cutting a tree with an axe is a heart attack risk factor if I've ever seen one...

Wood has hardness, which resists. Punching adamantine daggers through stone walls is more like trying to push a nail through flesh or embedding a steel knife in someones torso.

the problem with adamantine is that that it has this weird game mechanic of ignoring 20 points of hardness... this is an imperfect simplification that results in weird interpretations. It's still an object that occupies time and space so if you want to displace another object with it you still need mass and acceleration. It's not a lightsaber.


Suggestions for hardness:

First, add the "fragile" quality (see special materials) to stone objects, walls and the like. Already an existing mechanism, use it. Or I guess rather a slight variant of it. Basically critical hits bypass hardness (still do not multiply their damage though vs. objects), representing its brittleness and bits of rock just flaking off if you hit it right. Specifically stone (or other very brittle things), not everything.

Second, just do "Iron bypasses 1 point of hardness, Mithril bypasses 2 point of hardness, Adamantine bypasses 3 points of hardness" and call it a day. Adamantine still has a main purpose for DR bypass, but is not a stupid lightsaber. Unless you're cutting leather or similar.


The problem with "bypass" hardness is really that it's like a magical effect.
So if one wants to run it, we can't really compare it to anything irl for how it works.

In effects it IS a light saber.

For a more mundane effect, that 99%, of the time it will have a similar effect, one can say that:
"Adamantine weapons do +20 damage to objects (after all other calculations are made)"


Uh that would make adamantine WAY more lightsaber-y.

Right now, I swing an adamantine dagger, 1d4, roll a 2. It bypasses stone's hardness and does 2 hitpoints damage.

With +20 damage, I swing it, 22 damage, 8 gets absorbed by the hardness, I end up doing 14 damage and laser through way more quickly. I'm now daggering through 5ft/minute of rock...


Yeah quite ill thought on my Pat.
Lesson learned: ideas before the first coffee suck^^

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Ok, so let's go with the assumption that the core rules will remain the same and that we will not get an "unchained adamantine" in a later book... :)

With that assumption in mind, one could still apply the "ineffective weapon" clause from the core rules:

"Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer."

I'm gonna go ahead and rule that in my game, anyhow. Regardless of the base material of a dagger, it's still just a dagger. At best I'll allow a resourceful party the benefit of the doubt and use an adamantine dagger as a "sink anywhere" piton upon which they can safely tie a rope for climbing... they could also use it to extract the eye gems of a big statue, for example. Maybe they can also use it to engrave stone walls with markers or crude art.

But don't come to me and ask to be the equivalent of a jackhammer/excavator/crusher/screener mobile stone processing plant... daggers are just not designed to do that. Adamantine spoons could maybe shorten your tunneling/escape attempts by 25% if I'm in a good mood (note: digging faster also means you have to hide the broken dirt/stone faster... watch Shawshank Redemption for details... ;) )


We've been around that lap already. We have two camps, one that agrees that the weapon should be designed to move stone in order to dig through it regardless of composition, and another camp that believes that the ability to bypass hardness makes any object automatically an appropriate excavating tool. I'm personally in the first camp, but think the second camp has its merits as well.

Mostly, I'm inclined to believe that rules for creating a tunnel wouldn't be based on the rules for killing things, but then why would we need HP for environment were that the case.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

If the second camp's argument can hold weight with a diminutive or fine creature wielding a diminutive or fine adamantine dagger, it would help. However it does not. By extension it would imply that one atom of adamantine (or smallest cristalline matrix of adamantine possible) could in theory be used to unravel unlimited amounts of steel or stone. If you want to ignore hardness of stone in my game bring a pick or hammer. Even then the pick or hammer will need replacement after a few decades (as opposed to their steel versions which need replacement after a few years). Every time you strike two objects together you lose atoms on both sides. Why is your kitchen knife getting dull after a few years of use on soft ripe tomatoes and wooden cutting boards?


Well, similarly, you could have a typical pick or hammer of fine size (appropriate weapons) and I think you could argue for there to be similar amounts of questionable with taking down a wall or whatnot.

Scaling the rules up or down doesn't work too well in general anyway.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Why is your kitchen knife getting dull after a few years of use on soft ripe tomatoes and wooden cutting boards?

Why can my barbarian destroy someone's breastplate with a single blow of his rapier, and without damaging the rapier in any way? The problem here is that both sides are trying to apply common sense to a rule set that can't possibly be complicated enough to simulate reality, and to a substance that behaves like nothing in nature.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Why is your kitchen knife getting dull after a few years of use on soft ripe tomatoes and wooden cutting boards?
Why can my barbarian destroy someone's breastplate with a single blow of his rapier, and without damaging the rapier in any way? The problem here is that both sides are trying to apply common sense to a rule set that can't possibly be complicated enough to simulate reality, and to a substance that behaves like nothing in nature.

Funnier still, how can you do non-lethal with that same rapier? :)


With damaging objects already being poorly modeled in the game mechanics, I don't think it's wise to combine it with Pathfinder's equally screwy mechanics for creatures smaller than small.

Still, having seen what a rat can do to concrete with it's teeth, I wouldn't give one adamantine dentures.


alexd1976 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Why is your kitchen knife getting dull after a few years of use on soft ripe tomatoes and wooden cutting boards?
Why can my barbarian destroy someone's breastplate with a single blow of his rapier, and without damaging the rapier in any way? The problem here is that both sides are trying to apply common sense to a rule set that can't possibly be complicated enough to simulate reality, and to a substance that behaves like nothing in nature.
Funnier still, how can you do non-lethal with that same rapier? :)

Pommel.


Puna'chong wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Why is your kitchen knife getting dull after a few years of use on soft ripe tomatoes and wooden cutting boards?
Why can my barbarian destroy someone's breastplate with a single blow of his rapier, and without damaging the rapier in any way? The problem here is that both sides are trying to apply common sense to a rule set that can't possibly be complicated enough to simulate reality, and to a substance that behaves like nothing in nature.
Funnier still, how can you do non-lethal with that same rapier? :)
Pommel.

But it's still piercing damage. ;)


You just have to stab them in the non-vital parts. Like the way a bullet in the shoulder can't kill a cowboy.


Matthew Downie wrote:
You just have to stab them in the non-vital parts. Like the way a bullet in the shoulder can't kill a cowboy.

Ha ha true dat.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I'm gonna go ahead and rule [ineffective weapons] in my game, anyhow. Regardless of the base material of a dagger, it's still just a dagger. At best I'll allow a resourceful party the benefit of the doubt and use an adamantine dagger as a "sink anywhere" piton upon which they can safely tie a rope for climbing... they could also use it to extract the eye gems of a big statue, for example. Maybe they can also use it to engrave stone walls with markers or crude art.

I agree, and will do the same.

If I may be a bit impertinent, it's likely that those suggesting tunneling with a dagger have never, for example, dug a hole or ditch (or grave), hewn stone with a pickaxe, or even trenched a sprinkler system, or any other digging/mining work, using hand tools. Even in soft clay and with tools designed for the job it's not easy or fast. Straightforward, yes, but definitely not fast.

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