Adamantine daggers do what?


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Wait... you're assuming an adamantine tool vaporizes the material it cuts? You still have to remove that material. Hauling rubble away from the tunnel you're digging through.

If we're talking an Adamantium Dagger that's 3,000 gold, not something a level 1 character can afford. If you're saying an Adamantine Pick Tool would be affordable that may be but it's not a Rod of Disintegrate.

EDIT: that aside I'll confess I don't understand the challenges of running a dungeon all that well. Like I said I run Open World campaigns, my players involve themselves in plots in the world at large rather than crawling dungeons.


Sorry for not getting back on track,...

But I have no clue where this "moving through 10' pof stone er round" came from...

The original comment was something along the lines of "an adamantine dagger cuts through stone like a normal knife through butter."

So, let's say - once again - that this where the case. Pretend your dungeon was made out of solid butter. However unlike normal butter, you can't claw or punch through it... The only tool you have that functions as you would expect is this one dagger. You need to carve out passage through the butter dungeon... Carve out areas large enough to pass through... You need to remove the carved out sections of butter (each one - likely the size of a grapefruit, based on typical blade length.. Yet weigh 5-10 lbs). You will need bag of holding or at the very least a wheel barrow, to assist you in clearing out this butter 'rubble'...

After scooping out roughly 1500 of these butter stones, you will have been able to create a
Tunnel that is approximately 3' wide by 3' tall, and 10' long..., hopefully you know where you are headed... You may accidentally be tunneling in the thicker area between two chambers....

So.... If the party spends Days and days doing this... And somehow manages to NOT attract the attention of ANYONE or ANYTHING living in the butter dungeon... While also avoiding any natural pitfalls/traps that the GM may not have originally planned on creating in the dungeon, but upon seeing that the party was choosing to go an unconventional path - thought might make sense to add it... Then sure... Somehow, the 3000 gp dagger allowed them to bypass the GM's dungeon...


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Wait... you're assuming an adamantine tool vaporizes the material it cuts? You still have to remove that material. Hauling rubble away from the tunnel you're digging through.

Yeah that's what the other 3-4 people in my party who are not wielding the dagger + our mule are for. They can easily keep up, unless we're talking REALLY long tunnels. If so it just takes a little longer. I can hire laborers for 1sp/day if I need to.

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If we're talking an Adamantium Dagger that's 3,000 gold, not something a level 1 character can afford.

Wealth by level, if being followed, would be 4,000gp total for the party prior to reaching level 2. We can definitely buy an adamantine dagger in a standard game at that point. (or if you truly don't think tool type being appropriate matters, an improvised weapon adamantine arrow for 60g...)

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Like I said I run Open World campaigns, my players involve themselves in plots in the world at large rather than crawling dungeons.

Sure, I can also use an adamantine dagger to make a whole city wall collapse with like, one afternoon's work, letting an army in.

Or I can tell the rival kingdom to invest in 50 adamantine daggers (they can keep them afterward), and give me some stout men and we can go dig a quarter mile channel to reroute a river into the enemy town in a day or two. Don't even have to remove all the rubble, the river will later.

I can destroy half a fleet before anybody notices with a scroll of Aboleth's Lung and touch of the sea and an adamantine dagger underwater.

Etc.


Replace this with adamantine warhammers and you have the same "issues" with the added "problem" that the hammer is "supposed to" break stuff.

Also no city guard worth his salt would leave someone bashing at the wall for hours undisturbed.


RJGrady wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:


Attacking with adamantine is not anything like attacking with diamond.

Well, ignoring the fact that adamantine literally means "like diamond," sure, that's true. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant

ugh. Did you even read the first part of my post:

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Could people stop mentioning diamonds? Despite the origin of the words, admantine does not function like diamonds. Adamantine is super hard, NOT brittle, AND it is super sharp/penetrating/...weighted?

Attacking with adamantine is not anything like attacking with diamond.

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Wealth by level, if being followed, would be 4,000gp total for the party prior to reaching level 2. We can definitely buy an adamantine dagger in a standard game at that point. (or if you truly don't think tool type being appropriate matters, an improvised weapon adamantine arrow for 60g...)

Except that WBL shows the wealth of an individuals gear. Your breaking the games and WBL expectations if you pool together wealth like that.

Scarab Sages

Crimeo wrote:

If so it just takes a little longer. I can hire laborers for 1sp/day if I need to.

Yeah, good luck getting your laborers to stick around for more than a minute inside the dungeon. There is a reason they are laborers instead of adventurers.

Crimeo wrote:


Wealth by level, if being followed, would be 4,000gp total for the party prior to reaching level 2. We can definitely buy an adamantine dagger in a standard game at that point. (or if you truly don't think tool type being appropriate matters, an improvised weapon adamantine arrow for 60g...)

Wealth by level is individual, not party, and no more than 50% of that should be tied up in any one item. That party is not using wealth by level properly, and if the are, they are sharing less than 1000 gold for starting equipment, putting them at a severe disadvantage to splurge on this one item. Gods help them if they encounter a rust monster.

Crimeo wrote:


Sure, I can also use an adamantine dagger to make a whole city wall collapse with like, one afternoon's work, letting an army in.

If there are no guards on the walls ready to fill you with arrows when you start sabotaging their wall, that is a problem with security. Walls are less secure in a fantasy setting already, what with all of the magical ways to destroy or bypass a wall. It's cheaper and more effective to just invest in siege weapons anyway.

Crimeo wrote:


Or I can tell the rival kingdom to invest in 50 adamantine daggers (they can keep them afterward), and give me some stout men and we can go dig a quarter mile channel to reroute a river into the enemy town in a day or two. Don't even have to remove all the rubble, the river will later.

You could cut a passage through stone, but you still need to move the earth to divert a river. It wouldn't be the first time a river was diverted for war.

Crimeo wrote:


I can destroy half a fleet before anybody notices with a scroll of Aboleth's Lung and touch of the sea and an adamantine dagger underwater.

Etc.

And a druid can destroy a fleet with a single repel wood spell. Wooden ships are very vulnerable to being scuttled by water breathers. Adamantine just makes it quicker.


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Wealth by level is individual, not party, and no more than 50% of that should be tied up in any one item.

Yeah I know. We put it all in a bag between the 4 of us and one guy buys an adamantine dagger for the party.

The notation in the rules about no more than half one player's wealth on one item is only mentioned with regard to character building, I.e. you don't start play with ratios that break that rule. It does not limit spending during gameplay, which wouldn't make sense (what, will Thor smite us if we put gold in one pile?)

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If there are no guards on the walls ready to fill you with arrows when you start sabotaging their wall, that is a problem with security.

The other poster was saying that his/her campaigns focus on a kingdom and political scale. So I was meaning to imply a siege type situation. They can't come out and get me, also I'm underground in a tunnel.

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It's cheaper and more effective to just invest in siege weapons anyway.

Actually, three trebuchets (same cost as a dagger) do WAY less useful damage to a wall. Their actual damage hitpoints are only about comparable, since they take 7 rounds to load, aim, and fire and miss 1/8th of the time. Plus they can't precisely hit the same wall section over and over, much less focus their damage in a single tunnel shape, unlike the dagger, so this damage is mostly wasted. The dagger will achieve the objective in a small fraction of the time.

And they are exposed to counterfire.

Also they and their ammo weigh dozens of tons, and take squadrons of dudes to move and setup and versus fitting in a pocket...

AND the trebuchets will never get faster. The dagger will, as you gain more attacks per round with high BAB, and monks could flurry with one even at level 1...

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After scooping out roughly 1500 of these butter stones, you will have been able to create a

Tunnel that is approximately 3' wide by 3' tall, and 10' long...

Yeah for 5-10 feet the rest of the party can just scoop those away while I dig. Way more than enough for most shortcuts, doors, going through walls in the sides of buildings. For longer tunnels, the fighter can drag a literal ton of rocks on a sled on a rope. Tug back with another rope. You're only looking at like 5 minutes per foot even long distances. That's a mind bogglingly faster than realistic tunneling rate. Totally screws up all kinds of story lines and puzzles at party and kingdom scales.

By comparison, a stone shape spell only penetrates ~1.5 feet for the same sized tunnel. A 4th level spell slot is replaced by 7.5 minutes of mundane effort.

Also a lot of the uses don't even require removing rubble, so who cares? To disable a trap, I don't have to dig dozens of cubic feet of rock, I just have to take a couple of swings at some mechanisms. To sabotage buildings and ships and things, I don't have to sled out material. I just need to pass an engineering check and hack at some supports in the right places. To cut down any door, I just need to slice the hinges and kick it in. Etc.


Crimeo wrote:
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Wait... you're assuming an adamantine tool vaporizes the material it cuts? You still have to remove that material. Hauling rubble away from the tunnel you're digging through.
Yeah that's what the other 3-4 people in my party who are not wielding the dagger + our mule are for. They can easily keep up, unless we're talking REALLY long tunnels. If so it just takes a little longer. I can hire laborers for 1sp/day if I need to.

True enough, but that's a huge difference from 'instantly carve through walls.' It takes a long time to chip through a sizeable brick/stone wall with an adamantine anything until pretty high level when the martial should be able to just shatter the wall by headbutting it anyway.

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If we're talking an Adamantium Dagger that's 3,000 gold, not something a level 1 character can afford.
Wealth by level, if being followed, would be 4,000gp total for the party prior to reaching level 2. We can definitely buy an adamantine dagger in a standard game at that point. (or if you truly don't think tool type being appropriate matters, an improvised weapon adamantine arrow for 60g...)

Really? You'd sacrifice that much combat potency for a digging tool? By all means go for it dude, you won't see me care that's for certain. [Aside from perhaps warning you that you'd do better putting that money into power rather than plowing through fortifications.]

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Like I said I run Open World campaigns, my players involve themselves in plots in the world at large rather than crawling dungeons.
Sure, I can also use an adamantine dagger to make a whole city wall collapse with like, one afternoon's work, letting an army in.

Do you know how thick a city wall typically is? And that's just the minor city walls that are a single layer thick, the major city walls are two layers thick with a road-width gap between filled with large stones with sand filled into the gaps between them.

That being said, if a group of heroes really wants to force a way through a wall then they're going to do it. Acid- for example- also ignores hardness and eats directly through a stone wall's HP. Acid Splash is an at-will cantrip, delivering 1d3+1 [Acid Flask as a focus] acid damage every round until the wall is penetrated.

You know what works even better than that though? Sappers. Actual sappers using digging and mining tools to dig UNDER the wall. This doesn't require adventurers and their ridiculous pay-rates.

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Or I can tell the rival kingdom to invest in 50 adamantine daggers (they can keep them afterward), and give me some stout men and we can go dig a quarter mile channel to reroute a river into the enemy town in a day or two. Don't even have to remove all the rubble, the river will later.

Why the focus on daggers? Heavy Picks cost the exact same to be made of adamantine and deal around 2/3rds more [2d4+Str*1.5 vs 1d4+Str] and bypass the typical controlling GM's excuse of 'it's not an appropriate device.'

On the subject of rerouting a river though, do you know which direction rivers flow? Downhill.

Do you know which direction fortifications and towns are usually built? Uphill [for security reasons.]

That's not to say one couldn't conceivably alter a river's course from a higher altitude than the city, but it's not as simple as you make it out to be [and we might actually see the Knowledge:Geography skill do something for once.]

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I can destroy half a fleet before anybody notices with a scroll of Aboleth's Lung and touch of the sea and an adamantine dagger underwater.

Of course you can, who said otherwise? Not quite sure how the Adamantine Dagger plays into this but I suspect you'll enlighten me.


...so, did everyone just read the "Ineffective Weapons" part of that section and ignore the rest? Stone is 15 HP/inch of thickness. A 1 foot thick stone wall has 180 HP. Swinging your adamantine dagger for 1d4+Str, that's... well, a whole lot of time. Assuming a 20 Str, that's almost 2 and a half minutes, on average (and it will be close to average with 24 dice rolls). Assuming you're burrowing through solid rock, now we're talking about 5 feet of stone and 900 HP. So, 12 minutes to carve out 5 feet of rock. In an hour you can carve out a 25 foot long tunnel! Which while impressive by real world standards is not very game-breaking by pathfinder standards.


Crimeo wrote:
You're only looking at like 5 minutes per foot even long distances.

well... actually, it comes out to about 150 "scoops" per foot. Since each of those "scoops" is about 5 cubic inches... to cut around that (circumference), the knife would have to pass through 17 inches of stone - or overcome 255 HP of damage. using average knife damage of a 20 STR PC, it would take over 3 minutes PER SCOOP! That is over 7 hours just to create a 3'x3' hole through one foot of stone... or 3 days of straight digging to go through a 10' of tunnel (that leaves you in a prone position in a narrow space as you enter the next unknown space)...

but if you are crossing rooms to get to these doors, and not just trying to tunnel around the rooms too... you still have to traverse the rooms that the "traps" are in. You are not bypassing anything, except maybe some sort of puzzle here or there to find a key or unlock the door... you aren't by any means bypassing the entire dungeon. And like others have said, as you spend all that time at each door, scooping through it - whatever is waiting in the next room will prepared for you. Not only do you lose any surprise rounds you may have gotten, but you will likely get ambushed yourself.

Crimeo wrote:
To disable a trap, I don't have to dig dozens of cubic feet of rock, I just have to take a couple of swings at some mechanisms.

that is assuming the trap mechanisms are all exposed for everyone to see and fiddle with, without the risk of the first "cut" setting the trap off. I amean seriously - without a high enough "disable device" skill, how on earth would you know what to cut when looking at a trap? that is like me saying "all i need is a pair of scissors and i can disable any bomb i come across - all i gotta do is ut a few wires"

What you are describing is what rogues actually do when they roll their high "disable device checks"

Crimeo wrote:
To sabotage buildings and ships and things, I don't have to sled out material. I just need to pass an engineering check and hack at some supports in the right places.

So to sabatage a wooden ship - all you need to do is pass an ENGINEERING CHECK and then DO A BUNCH OF DAMAGE to the ship... guess what - you haven't bypassed ANYTHING - you just successfully overcame the challenge using skill checks and damage rolls. All the adamantine dagger did was allow you to bypass the equivalent of DR 5/adamantine... but with the light weapon and small damage dice of the dagger - you would be better off two handing a Great Axe or an Earthbreaker. It would get the job done faster... though if you had to swim to get to the ship using stealth - the adamantine dagger does help their with weight and flavor...

Crimeo wrote:
To cut down any door, I just need to slice the hinges and kick it in.

Have you never seen a door before? seriously... you put the hinges on the SECURE side of a door for that exact reason. Otherwise anyone with a screw driver could take off a door in seconds by pulling the hinge pins... and even if you needed to secure both sides of the door for some reason - concealed hinges exist


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Really? You'd sacrifice that much combat potency for a digging tool?

It's also a masterwork weapon that will remain relevant throughout the game (for DR if nothing else), and I would get a longsword or something. The junk I would've bought at level 1 would not have any guarantee of saving my life (some +1AC or whatever) and was just going to get sold at a loss at lvl 3 anyway. As long as I survive that long, I win the invesment, no downside. And the tool actively helps me to survive that long almost certainly better than +1AC etc. by potentially avoiding whole dangerous encounters.

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Sappers. Actual sappers using digging and mining tools to dig UNDER the wall. This doesn't require adventurers and their ridiculous pay-rates.

In terms of a siege/kingmaker type deal, that's what I was referring to anyway. NPC sappers with adamantine tools.

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Why the focus on daggers?

Just the title of the thread. I'd get a longsword or similar. Or perhaps an adamantine traveler's anytool if my GM allowed me (don't see why not. Is it physically impossible to forge anything but weapons out of?)

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Acid Splash is an at-will cantrip, delivering 1d3+1 [Acid Flask as a focus] acid damage every round until the wall is penetrated.

That is a really good idea, thanks! Add in create water and you don't have to carry away any rubble, even, just rinse it down the slope.

druid and a wizard can burn through a foot in 6 minutes... probably better yes, if you have the right casters.


Crimeo wrote:
It's also a masterwork weapon that will remain relevant throughout the game (for DR if nothing else), and I would get a longsword or something. The junk I would've bought at level 1 would not have any guarantee of saving my life (some +1AC or whatever) and was just going to get sold at a loss at lvl 3 anyway. As long as I survive that long, I win the invesment, no downside. And the tool actively helps me to survive that long almost certainly better than +1AC etc. by potentially avoiding whole dangerous encounters.

Except only 1 player gets that weapon and no one else has any other supplies....

edit:

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Acid- for example- also ignores hardness

That isn't true anymore. Acid does not have any special quality in PF that states it ignore hardness like it did in 3.5e.

Dark Archive

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Shifty wrote:

OK thats it, Im buying that named Adamantine Crowbar.

Now if only I could recall the Chronicle it was on...

Spoiler:
The golemworks incident.

Everyone needs a "Trusty Buddy"


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Except only 1 player gets that weapon and no one else has any other supplies....

1st level supplies are s~!@. +1AC from half plate that you'll throw out later instead of splint mail that you'll throw out later doesn't really ultimately matter. And more importantly, isn't nearly as hilarious as "that one time we all bought an adamntine weapon and tried to use it on everything" if your DM would let you get away with it.

Also everybody still has their starting gear + another 100-200 or so gold, which together comprises the other 1,000gp from our total wealth, distributed around. So we all do have basic weapons, baic armor, ropes, canteens, everything. Just not slightly fancier versions.


Milo v3 wrote:
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Acid- for example- also ignores hardness
That isn't true anymore. Acid does not have any special quality in PF that states it ignore hardness like it did in 3.5e.

Acid didn't ignore hardness in 3.5 either. It just didn't have it's damage halved or quartered first before applying hardness like other energy types did.

Scarab Sages

Jeraa wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
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Acid- for example- also ignores hardness
That isn't true anymore. Acid does not have any special quality in PF that states it ignore hardness like it did in 3.5e.
Acid didn't ignore hardness in 3.5 either. It just didn't have it's damage halved or quartered first before applying hardness like other energy types did.

Actually, it does, but by how much is up to the GM on a case-by-case basis.

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Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.


An adamantine dagger can, in addition to the uses I've seen mentioned here,
assist in climbing
assist in intimidation
allow you to leave trail signs anywhere
and in case people forgot, it's pretty good at sundering light weapons, wands & similar.


Psionic sonic powers ignore hardness. If only there was a way to do it at will.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimeo wrote:


In terms of a siege/kingmaker type deal, that's what I was referring to anyway. NPC sappers with adamantine tools.

Adamantine costs 3000 gp extra on a weapon.

NPC sappers probably cost less than 1 gp a day, plus around 25 gp to equip.

I would rather have 100 sappers fully equipped than one with a very expensive tool.

Now ask yourself, how many murder-hobo groups would go after said sapper for the treasure?

Or are you suggesting another use for an Adamantine dagger is as a reward to a moderate level group of murder-hobos when they breeze through an encounter with NPC sappers?


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I would rather have 100 sappers fully equipped than one with a very expensive tool.

Erm, 100 dudes cannot fit in a 3x4 tunnel. One can. So you have a choice of one sapper with an iron tool, or one with an adamantine tool. With, say, 14 strength and a pickaxe that's 6.5 damage per round on average vs. 0.375 damage per round on average. So your 100 dudes get through 20x more slowly.

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murder-hobos when they breeze through an encounter with NPC sappers?

...In the middle of a siege? As they approach the massed army and start rooting around among the attackers' feet looking for tunnel entrances,

"Roll initiative!"
"18" "16" "5" "9"
"Okay well 4,221 out of all of the soldiers rolled nat 20s, so they get to attack first. 876 of them are archers in range. 300 of those were already sitting around waiting for a viable target to poke their head out, and are happy to attack you. Also 50 melee guys within movement range rolled 20s."
*rolls*
"You are all dead."


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
I would rather have 100 sappers fully equipped than one with a very expensive tool.
Erm, 100 dudes cannot fit in a 3x4 tunnel. One can. So you have a choice of one sapper with an iron tool, or one with an adamantine tool. With, say, 14 strength and a pickaxe that's 6.5 damage per round on average vs. 0.375 damage per round on average. So your 100 dudes get through 20x more slowly.

Or how about 10 tunnels so that the defenders have to worry about more approaches and when you get the tunnels done it is more than one attacker versus the massed attackers inside. That plus the danger of cave-ins does make multiple tunnels a better idea.

Crimeo wrote:
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murder-hobos when they breeze through an encounter with NPC sappers?

...In the middle of a siege? As they approach the massed army and start rooting around looking for tunnel entrances in no-man's-land,

"Roll initiative!"
"18" "16" "5" "9"
"Okay well 4,221 out of all of the soldiers rolled nat 20s, so they get to attack first. 876 of them are archers in range. 300 of those were already sitting around waiting for a viable target to poke their head out, and are happy to attack you."
*rolls*
"You are all dead."

Stupid groups die.

The others have some combination of Invisibility, Clairvoyance, tiny familiar with Stealth skill, Disguise and Bluff skill, and other such things to gather intel and make a precision strike.

It is a standard trope that a small group can sneak past an army.


Crimeo wrote:
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I would rather have 100 sappers fully equipped than one with a very expensive tool.

Erm, 100 dudes cannot fit in a 3x4 tunnel. One can. So you have a choice of one sapper with an iron tool, or one with an adamantine tool. With, say, 14 strength and a pickaxe that's 6.5 damage per round on average vs. 0.375 damage per round on average. So your 100 dudes get through 20x more slowly.

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murder-hobos when they breeze through an encounter with NPC sappers?

...In the middle of a siege? As they approach the massed army and start rooting around among the attackers' feet looking for tunnel entrances,

"Roll initiative!"
"18" "16" "5" "9"
"Okay well 4,221 out of all of the soldiers rolled nat 20s, so they get to attack first. 876 of them are archers in range. 300 of those were already sitting around waiting for a viable target to poke their head out, and are happy to attack you. Also 50 melee guys within movement range rolled 20s."
*rolls*
"You are all dead."

84,420 people (who are presumably busy with that whole siege business) are waiting and able to attack 4 people?


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84,420 people (who are presumably busy with that whole siege business) are waiting and able to attack 4 people?

No, 80,000 people are attacking a major city as an army. That's why they have sappers. I was under the impression that the murder hobos, in your scenario, were merely somehow getting rumor of this and waltzing in to the situation as third parties trying to steal tools for money.

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Or how about 10 tunnels so that the defenders have to worry about more approaches and when you get the tunnels done it is more than one attacker versus the massed attackers inside. That plus the danger of cave-ins does make multiple tunnels a better idea.

I can also have 9 guys with iron digging a tunnel as backups. Still 20x faster if the main tunnel works, and just as reliable if not. Armies cost absurd amounts of money. Adamantine sappers tools for the chance of getting a trump card in time before the defending army might arrive to lift the siege is a slam dunk investment.

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Invisibility, Clairvoyance, tiny familiar with Stealth skill, Disguise and Bluff skill,

It's an army. They are monitoring out to MILES around magically and mundanely, detecting magic and stuff, making you roll disguise like 170 times any one of which it gets murdered if it fails. You are way outside clairvoyance range to the middle of the camp/ranks even by the time you're standing in the middle of soldiers. They can also easily see your sensor (DC 23 with a hundred non-commoners rolling perception). You may be out of familiar range, and if you have to move to avoid patrols your familiar may not even be able to find you again later...

Plus for all you know there may not even be any visible tunnel entrance. Maybe they found a cave, sealed off the entrance until it's finished, smoothed it over, brought a bottle of air down there, and are dumping rubble into the cave. Or maybe the familiar only found 3 backup iron tool tunnels, and not the cash money one?

And you are doing all this... to earn 1,500 gold pieces resale value on a pickaxe? Which you probably can't even sell anywhere nearby since doing so would incriminate you as high traitors?

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a series of heated posts. Let's turn this discussion back around to it's light-hearted intent.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crimeo wrote:


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Invisibility, Clairvoyance, tiny familiar with Stealth skill, Disguise and Bluff skill,

It's an army. They are monitoring out to MILES around magically and mundanely, detecting magic and stuff, making you roll disguise like 170 times any one of which it gets murdered if it fails. You are way outside clairvoyance range to the middle of the camp/ranks even by the time you're standing in the middle of soldiers. They can also easily see your sensor (DC 23 with a hundred non-commoners rolling perception). You may be out of familiar range, and if you have to move to avoid patrols your familiar may not even be able to find you again later...

Plus for all you know there may not even be any visible tunnel entrance. Maybe they found a cave, sealed off the entrance until it's finished, smoothed it over, brought a bottle of air down there, and are dumping rubble into the cave. Or maybe the familiar only found 3 backup iron tool tunnels, and not the cash money one?

Sorry, your base assumptions are so far from mine that I don't think we can realistically continue the conversation.

I would expect armies to be made up of mostly NPC warriors, experts, and commoners of levels 3-5 with a few better people. There may be one small group with magical powers, but they would be focused on the siege.

You appear to be using mythic level protections and assume every soldier has a +15 or more on perception. Where I would have had key points with rotating guards, evidently you assume constant vigilance all around the target city for miles. I would likely have some magical protections around the commander's area, while you evidently have it over every square inch for miles around.

Given those wealth levels, I'm surprised you don't give all the sapper crews a bard with a Lyre of Building or something like that.


BretI wrote:


Sorry, your base assumptions are so far from mine that I don't think we can realistically continue the conversation.

I would expect armies to be made up of mostly NPC warriors, experts, and commoners of levels 3-5 with a few better people. There may be one small group with magical powers, but they would be focused on the siege.

You appear to be using mythic level protections and assume every soldier has a +15 or more on perception. Where I would have had key points with rotating guards, evidently you assume constant vigilance all around the target city for miles. I would likely have some magical protections around the commander's area, while you evidently have it over every square inch for miles around.

Given those wealth levels, I'm surprised you don't give all the sapper crews a bard with a Lyre of Building or something like that.

Lol now I can't help but imagine these bards like 10 feet from the inside of the wall singing something like the song in Lion king 1&1/2 about digging a tunnel(quick before the Kobolds come...)... then when they break through everyone on the wall is right in front of the hole because they literally heard them(perhaps with a helpful warrior attacking the wall from the inside with his adamant dagger because he heard the bard singing and decided to try his luck at tunneling himself....)

Scarab Sages

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M1k31 wrote:
BretI wrote:


Sorry, your base assumptions are so far from mine that I don't think we can realistically continue the conversation.

I would expect armies to be made up of mostly NPC warriors, experts, and commoners of levels 3-5 with a few better people. There may be one small group with magical powers, but they would be focused on the siege.

You appear to be using mythic level protections and assume every soldier has a +15 or more on perception. Where I would have had key points with rotating guards, evidently you assume constant vigilance all around the target city for miles. I would likely have some magical protections around the commander's area, while you evidently have it over every square inch for miles around.

Given those wealth levels, I'm surprised you don't give all the sapper crews a bard with a Lyre of Building or something like that.

Lol now I can't help but imagine these bards like 10 feet from the inside of the wall singing something like the song in Lion king 1&1/2 about digging a tunnel(quick before the Kobolds come...)... then when they break through everyone on the wall is right in front of the hole because they literally heard them(perhaps with a helpful warrior attacking the wall from the inside with his adamant dagger because he heard the bard singing and decided to try his luck at tunneling himself....)

Bluff, Bluff, Bluff, Bluff the stupid ogre!


BretI wrote:


You appear to be using mythic level protections and assume every soldier has a +15 or more on perception.

Soldiers require only +3 in perception for the 5% of them who roll nat 20s to see your clairvoyance scrying sensor at DC23, not a +15. And so forth for all your bluffs and stealth, etc. You get past 17 guards, but then the time will almost certainly come when you roll a 2 and guard rolls a 19 after enough encounters.

The level 3-5 NPCs you say you expect should easily have +5 or more in perception, and plenty of scattered skills in sense motive, etc. Meaning you'd have to be walking in with a modifier of +25 or so in X skill to never fail after running into tons of them over and over.

Quote:
evidently you assume constant vigilance all around the target city for miles.

There's two parts, in camp and in the countryside. In camp is just common sense. I don't pay soldiers to sit around and scratch themselves all day during a siege. They're expected to put in work shifts. Much of this will be patrolling. You're serving as police for the other soldiers, you're keeping an eye out for trouble, and indeed, that would potentially include spies (they expect them from the defenders not from adventurers, but doesn't matter). And anyone who is a caster has a finite number of spells, and would logically be expected to pull their weight the rest of their shift with cantrips: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, and Detect Magic. The first two in mere minutes can take care of everyone, so mostly Detect Magic.

As for the countryside, that is a historical fact of medieval logistics. Any attacking army would have not just lone scouts but whole squadrons of folks everywhere around all the surrounding the countryside. Not to find spies, but because the main way that an attacking/sieging medieval army fed itself was from "foraging" (stealing) from the country, so day in day out they'd be swarming for miles around just to sustain themselves as a matter of course. They are in fact saving money, not wasting it, and spotting adventurers more easily is merely a happy side effect.


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they cut the your food amazing!


This thread is making me LOL

Consider this:

Ignoring hardness less than 20 means you can stick the dagger into stone, on this we can all agree.

Determining whether or not a dagger is an appropriate tool for digging is a subjective call that is made by the GM, NOT the players.

So there is no reason for any argument on this point.

The GM simply says no, and things move on. If the players want to argue the point, apply whatever method your group uses for this (we make a note of it and discuss after game).

There is nothing in the rules forcing GMs to allow the adamantine dagger aka lightsabre effect.

There IS stuff in the rules to shut it down.


alexd1976 wrote:
There IS stuff in the rules to shut it down.

Is there a good reason to do so?

Banning making a tunnel with an adamantine dagger doesn't make things much harder for the players. They can get an adamantine pickaxe, they can tunnel with an ordinary pickaxe if they're strong enough, or they can use magic. So shutting it down for reasons of game balance is pointless.

The only justification is you think the concept is silly, or you want to stick to your interpretation of RAW even if it annoys your players who would have bought a different item if they'd known that was how you'd rule it.


Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

Sure.

Now take the best knife you can find and start cutting your way through a foot thick solid wall of paper. (Not a bunch of single sheets; a single, foot thick sheet of paper.)


Matthew Downie wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
There IS stuff in the rules to shut it down.

Is there a good reason to do so?

Banning making a tunnel with an adamantine dagger doesn't make things much harder for the players. They can get an adamantine pickaxe, they can tunnel with an ordinary pickaxe if they're strong enough, or they can use magic. So shutting it down for reasons of game balance is pointless.

The only justification is you think the concept is silly, or you want to stick to your interpretation of RAW even if it annoys your players who would have bought a different item if they'd known that was how you'd rule it.

Oh if someone wanted to tunnel in my game, I wouldn't stop them. Ignoring hardness or not, digging just takes TIME.

Those tools don't grant a burrow speed. Dagger or otherwise.

Go ahead, attract every monster in earshot to bypass one section of wall, what do I care? :)


Crimeo wrote:
BretI wrote:


You appear to be using mythic level protections and assume every soldier has a +15 or more on perception.

Soldiers require only +3 in perception for the 5% of them who roll nat 20s to see your clairvoyance scrying sensor at DC23, not a +15. And so forth for all your bluffs and stealth, etc. You get past 17 guards, but then the time will almost certainly come when you roll a 2 and guard rolls a 19 after enough encounters.

The level 3-5 NPCs you say you expect should easily have +5 or more in perception, and plenty of scattered skills in sense motive, etc. Meaning you'd have to be walking in with a modifier of +25 or so in X skill to never fail after running into tons of them over and over.

Quote:
evidently you assume constant vigilance all around the target city for miles.

There's two parts, in camp and in the countryside. In camp is just common sense. I don't pay soldiers to sit around and scratch themselves all day during a siege. They're expected to put in work shifts. Much of this will be patrolling. You're serving as police for the other soldiers, you're keeping an eye out for trouble, and indeed, that would potentially include spies (they expect them from the defenders not from adventurers, but doesn't matter). And anyone who is a caster has a finite number of spells, and would logically be expected to pull their weight the rest of their shift with cantrips: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, and Detect Magic. The first two in mere minutes can take care of everyone, so mostly Detect Magic.

As for the countryside, that is a historical fact of medieval logistics. Any attacking army would have not just lone scouts but whole squadrons of folks everywhere around all the surrounding the countryside. Not to find spies, but because the main way that an attacking/sieging medieval army fed itself was from "foraging" (stealing) from the country, so day in day out they'd be swarming for miles around just to sustain themselves as a matter of course....

Again, you are assuming the entire army is getting to roll against these 4 people. That they have no negative modifiers, and that they are not actively participating in this siege. You have an army, not a mound of security cameras. So the players have to roll 80,000 times(even though there is no way in hell they would encounter all 80,000 people) but you just get to move the 5% average for 20s in front of them to assume failure? If you are going to do that, you have to start taking in to account the 4,221 who roll 1's with every attack and begin to screw things up massively. Seems to me this army is going to fall apart fairly quickly. Hell, if you are using the critical fumble deck you could just let the army destroy itself for a time and then go scavenging.

Besides, until the party is engaged in combat they can just take a 10 on their stealth and/or disguise checks. Meaning they only need a measly +16 to their checks to guarantee success. Let's assume lv 8's here. +3 for class, +8 for ranks, +5 for cloak of Elvenkind get's us a 16. That isn't taking in to account Dex or any of the other numerous ways to boost stealth.

Sounds like the murder hobos are easily bypassing your army.


Saldiven wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

Sure.

Now take the best knife you can find and start cutting your way through a foot thick solid wall of paper. (Not a bunch of single sheets; a single, foot thick sheet of paper.)

Now, remember this should be a masterwork knife as all adamantine ones are.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

Sure.

Now take the best knife you can find and start cutting your way through a foot thick solid wall of paper. (Not a bunch of single sheets; a single, foot thick sheet of paper.)

Now, remember this should be a masterwork knife as all adamantine ones are.

+1 to hit, yay!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Saldiven wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

Sure.

Now take the best knife you can find and start cutting your way through a foot thick solid wall of paper. (Not a bunch of single sheets; a single, foot thick sheet of paper.)

That's not how that works. If we assume that a sheet of paper is roughly equivalent to the stats of a scroll, then it has 1 hp and 0 hardness. Nobody's arguing that a knife can't cut that.

Scaling up to the foot-thick sheet of paper (not a ream of paper a foot thick, but a foot-thick sheet of paper), scientists call that substance "wood." In Pathfinder, that stuff has the remarkable property of hardness 5 and 10 hp/inch, so a foot of wood would have 120 hp and ignore the first five points of damage from every attack from our average, everyday dagger. Someone with above average Strength (14+) will eventually be able to cut through it, though it will take a long time - only a quarter of the strikes will significantly damage the block, so 480 rounds of attacks, or roughly 48 minutes. Weaker people couldn't even cut through it at all.

Here's the thing, though - adamantine ignores that hardness. Now someone of average Strength could cut through it in a relatively short time - two strikes will do an average of 5 damage, so 48 rounds will destroy it, which is just under 5 minutes.

But none of that really matters, since we're not really comparing a real item here. Adamantine is a theoretical construct, the "ultimate hardest material" out there. Nothing can break it, and nothing can resist it. Try this thought experiment - Wolverine is held in a prison made entirely of ordinary stone. He pops his adamantium claws, and starts slicing at the walls. Do you see any scenario where Logan cannot eventually tunnel his way to freedom? Sure, it's not quiet, and it's as fast as, say, having Scarlet Witch cast some spell that causes an improbable earthquake to occur and open the cell for Wolvie, but it works, unless this is one of those times when Logan has had the adamantium ripped from his body, and all he has to work with is bone claws. At that point, you're right, he can't get out. Adamantium seems to trump a normal material when it comes to cutting through a stone wall.

Why would adamantine, a substance with exactly the same theoretical properties as adamantium, not work in this exact same scenario?


Misroi wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
You guys realise that admantine daggers treat stone as hard as paper right?

Sure.

Now take the best knife you can find and start cutting your way through a foot thick solid wall of paper. (Not a bunch of single sheets; a single, foot thick sheet of paper.)

That's not how that works. If we assume that a sheet of paper is roughly equivalent to the stats of a scroll, then it has 1 hp and 0 hardness. Nobody's arguing that a knife can't cut that.

Scaling up to the foot-thick sheet of paper (not a ream of paper a foot thick, but a foot-thick sheet of paper), scientists call that substance "wood." In Pathfinder, that stuff has the remarkable property of hardness 5 and 10 hp/inch, so a foot of wood would have 120 hp and ignore the first five points of damage from every attack from our average, everyday dagger. Someone with above average Strength (14+) will eventually be able to cut through it, though it will take a long time - only a quarter of the strikes will significantly damage the block, so 480 rounds of attacks, or roughly 48 minutes. Weaker people couldn't even cut through it at all.

Here's the thing, though - adamantine ignores that hardness. Now someone of average Strength could cut through it in a relatively short time - two strikes will do an average of 5 damage, so 48 rounds will destroy it, which is just under 5 minutes.

But none of that really matters, since we're not really comparing a real item here. Adamantine is a theoretical construct, the "ultimate hardest material" out there. Nothing can break it, and nothing can resist it. Try this thought experiment - Wolverine is held in a prison made entirely of ordinary stone. He pops his adamantium claws, and starts slicing at the walls. Do you see any scenario where Logan cannot eventually tunnel his way to freedom? Sure, it's not quiet, and it's as fast as, say, having Scarlet Witch cast some spell that causes an improbable earthquake to occur and open the cell for Wolvie, but it works, unless this is one of those times when Logan has had the adamantium ripped from his body, and all he has to work with is bone claws. At that point, you're right, he can't get out. Adamantium seems to trump a normal material when it comes to cutting through a stone wall.

Why would adamantine, a substance with exactly the same theoretical properties as adamantium, not work in this exact same scenario?

Ummm... bad example. Adamantine CAN be destroyed, by an unarmed person, if their strength is high enough.

Everything can resist it. Bypassing hardness just means it can damage things.

It doesn't bypass all hardness. In fact, if you want an 'inescapable' prison, make it FROM Adamantine. Hardness 20. Weapons made of it bypass only hardness 19 or less.

So... yeah.

If the GM allowed tunneling with a dagger (which they aren't obligated to do) it would take time.

Time during which the guards would likely notice the sounds of metal on rock.

Or metal on wood... or whatever.


Isn't that just an adamantine longspear?

The costs of making a weapon adamantine are based on weapon size rather than the amount of metal used in said weapon. A spear uses as much or less metal than a dagger, but it's priced the same as a adamantine longsword. Fixing this is a not uncommon houserule, but crafting a improvised spear (pole+dagger) for noncombat applications where you won't care about attack penalties is a decent enough workaround.


A prison made from Adamantine would be prohibitively expensive and has very little practical use. A unarmed prisoner has no more real ability to bust out of one made of more mundane material and it offers no additional protection from magic or other such shenanigans. Plus, you would almost be guaranteeing an escape option since someone is going to want to get their hands on that massive amount of Adamantine. And boy would you look like a jackass if some druid comes along and casts Transmute Metal to Wood.


Corrik wrote:
A prison made from Adamantine would be prohibitively expensive and has very little practical use. A unarmed prisoner has no more real ability to bust out of one made of more mundane material and it offers no additional protection from magic or other such shenanigans. Plus, you would almost be guaranteeing an escape option since someone is going to want to get their hands on that massive amount of Adamantine. And boy would you look like a jackass if some druid comes along and casts Transmute Metal to Wood.

Sure, but it would look BADASS! :)

Grand Lodge

Assuming the players aren't just looking at the map on the table....
How do the characters know which wall to tunnel through to get to the next room?

I feel that meta-gaming wrecks your dungeon/puzzles more that the Adamantine Daggers do.

What sane charcter would spend all that time and energy in a dungeon or cave attempting to carve through a wall with no real idea of if there is something they are digging towards.. instead of just continuing down the hallway?

I would absolutely allow this addy dagger dungeon remodeling in my games.

Scarab Sages

Degnanigans wrote:


The costs of making a weapon adamantine are based on weapon size rather than the amount of metal used in said weapon. A spear uses as much or less metal than a dagger, but it's priced the same as a adamantine longsword. Fixing this is a not uncommon houserule, but crafting a improvised spear (pole+dagger) for noncombat applications where you won't care about attack penalties is a decent enough workaround.

No, they aren't the cost of making an weapon adamantine is a flat +3000 gold added to the cost of a weapon of that type. You don't even need to pay extra for masterwork, as it is included in the price.

CRB wrote:

Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20 (see Additional Rules). Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it's light armor, 2/— if it's medium armor, and 3/— if it's heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.

Type of Adamantine Item Item Cost Modifier
Ammunition +60 gp per missile
Light armor +5,000 gp
Medium armor +10,000 gp
Heavy armor +15,000 gp
Weapon +3,000 gp


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Corrik wrote:
Quote:

Assuming the players aren't just looking at the map on the table....

How do the characters know which wall to tunnel through to get to the next room?

That's not how you use it. You'd dig a shallow path around a trap to walk around it, if you're scared of activating it. You'd dig a hole in the wall right next to a door if it has a vicious looking DC 30 lock on it. You might dig through or under a visible, aboveground wall that you know the direction of. You dig the supports out from under a structure in 2 minutes before anybody would reasonably get around to investigating. Etc.

Quote:
Again, you are assuming the entire army is getting to roll against these 4 people. That they have no negative modifiers, and that they are not actively participating in this siege. You have an army, not a mound of security cameras. So the players have to roll 80,000 times

What? You're rolling against the people you are actually running into. If there is a mass of 80,000 people around, in order to walk into it, and search everywhere in campe for a stupid tunnel (not just one line across camp, you are crisscrossing everywhere), you will run into and interact with hundreds of dudes. Not 80,000, but hundreds yes.

Let's say you have a +12 stealth modifier, and these guys have +3 perception modifiers. Over the course of, say, 500 dudes seeing you move stealthily by or hearing your bluff, there is a 16.5% chance of you rolling at least 9 worse than them and failing per dude.

Binary probability over 500 dudes = 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000697 % probability that you will not be spotted or found out. (I actually calculated that, I did not mash the button a bunch)

Even if you have a +20 stealth, it's still 1.5% per dude, and over 500, the chance of you winning every time is 0.05% overall.


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Also I leave this for everyone's consideration:

People used to use HORN pickaxes to mine ROCK in the neolithic, possibly even up through roman times

Horn is way softer than rock. Rock however, is much more brittle than horn. And you usually mine things by jamming a pick in and then leveraging bits until they snap off (or the wedging action does the same instantly, applying massive pressure and cracking) not by abrading. The horn will get scratched with a swing, but then break rocks anyway.

Antlers are also a common tool even today for flint knapping.

Not sure what that would imply for pathfinder mechanics, but food for thought.

Scarab Sages

Perception Modifiers wrote:
Distance to the source, object, or creature: +1/10 ft

If a patrol is over 200 feet away then the party is practically invisible.

On topic:
A knife that cuts through the toughest steak with ease!
The ultimate pushpin, stick your Theses on almost any surface!


I want to break my dungeon walls

Grand Lodge

Crimeo wrote:
Corrik wrote:
Quote:

Assuming the players aren't just looking at the map on the table....

How do the characters know which wall to tunnel through to get to the next room?
That's not how you use it. You'd dig a shallow path around a trap to walk around it, if you're scared of activating it. You'd dig a hole in the wall right next to a door if it has a vicious looking DC 30 lock on it. You might dig through or under a visible, aboveground wall that you know the direction of. You dig the supports out from under a structure in 2 minutes before anybody would reasonably get around to investigating. Etc.

I understand where you are coming from but this sentence makes me giggle.

There is a much cheaper way to get through locks!

I guess I am in the school of thought that it would take a bit longer than we think to get through a wall even with an adamantine dagger. Hell, here in MN it takes a good chunk of time to shovel my driveway in the winter! and that's just snow!


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The wire saw is even statted as adamantine lol, so much for adamantine tools to be intended only for bypassing DR or sundering gear


The adamantine wire saw can even cut through adamantine - it's effective against hardness up to and including 20, instead of below 20 like an adamantine weapon.

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