That wretched FAQ sprang up from The Paladin + Magic Missile Wands tub olds from the last few months. It's probably worse than the one that removed SLAs as viable abilities for feats and PRC requirements.
EDIT: Wait, does that mean Kineticists only get Elemental Overflow and Constitution and the like to damage once?!
That wasn't even a big deal though, either. It was so insignificant to be not even worth nerfing.
More to the point, no, because I think that is a separate kind of damage. That damage is listed as a part of the attack. The Point-Blank Shot stuff is different. A but like how Magic Missile adds a +1 to all missiles separately.
But if it is, that would just utterly dumpster kineticist permanently. But I definitely don't think so.
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I strongly suspect they were referring to things like Sneak Attack when they referenced bonus damage, not really things like Point Blank Shot.Except it specifically calls out kinetic blast in cases like Point-Blank Shot. So it definitely counts Point-Blank Shot.
G!! d@$n that is a horrendous FAQ.
Yeah, this is garbage in a fundamental way.
Looks like yet another thing I'm going to have to fix with the unchained kineticist...
Is that a thing? Are you going to get more of my money?!
Because if it is, you will.
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Is that a thing? Are you going to get more of my money?!
Because if it is, you will.
It will have taken 6 books to get to this point, but yes. It will be a thing, it will be openly playtested, and it will be a part of my presumably final book on this...very interesting class. It was available for a limited time on the Legendary Kineticists thread, I think it's gone from there now, but it'll be in open playtest in the hopefully upcoming Legendary Kineticists II. Please go to that thread if you wish to discuss it further though.
But wow, that FAQ had decided to make me the sad night wolf.
Just as a minor note, was working on making a geokineticist and looking at your guide, and noticed your guide lists Shift Earth as being a 5th-level utility wild talent, when it is in fact 4th-level.
Sorry this got lost in the shuffle, going to update this now.
Why does Paizo keep insisting on changing the game's rules? Surely they realize they are going to hurt themselves in the long run if they keep it up at this pace.
Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus.
The fact that this text exists means that they literally are going against their own game rules. How on earth is anyone supposed to draw the kind of conclusion given in the FAQ from this? It counts as a weapon, but isn't one and therefore...?
It should be the exception to make sure stupid stuff like the Magic Missile Smite doesn't get through, but you don't screw over other abilities.
I honestly expect it to be fixed in another FAQ. Something like "Well because it relies on the attack or full attack actions the special ability itself isn't giving you the extra attacks, so the once per volley rules don't apply".
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Likewise, things like Bardic Performance calls out adding bonus damage on weapon damage rolls, and per the FAQ, we now know that this is likely shorthand for "manufactured weapon damage rolls".
This is a misunderstanding of the FAQ (it in fact specifically calls out inspire courage damage as an example where damage applies to special abilities). The only time that the FAQ says to use weapon as shorthand for manufactured weapon is with the precise phrasing "with a...weapon". If it doesn't say "with a", that paragraph doesn't apply. I have absolutely no idea why the words "with a" were correlated with shorthand for manufactured weapons, but they were (for instance, you'll often see things like "with a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike").
@Casting or use, there's a PDT post on this in the FAQ thread with an example of how to apply that (the question was about produce flame but would apply to flame blade, kinetic blade, and the like). The illustrative example in the PDT post was a spell called scorching ray artillery that let you shoot out three scorching rays per round as a standard action for 1 round per level (plus one barrage of three rays immediately upon casting). You would apply bonus damage to only one ray out of each barrage of three, but every time you used the ability. Similarly, if you made a flame blade or kinetic blade, you'd apply damage on each attack.
Likewise, things like Bardic Performance calls out adding bonus damage on weapon damage rolls, and per the FAQ, we now know that this is likely shorthand for "manufactured weapon damage rolls".This is a misunderstanding of the FAQ (it in fact specifically calls out inspire courage as an example where it applies to special abilities). The only time that the FAQ says to use weapon as shorthand for manufactured weapon is with the precise phrasing "with a...weapon". If it doesn't say "with a", that paragraph doesn't apply. I have absolutely no idea why the words "with a" were correlated with shorthand for manufactured weapons, but they were (for instance, you'll often see things like "with a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike").
So what does that mean for kinetic blade/whip? Is there an extra attack with haste or no?
This is a misunderstanding of the FAQ (it in fact specifically calls out inspire courage damage as an example where damage applies to special abilities). The only time that the FAQ says to use weapon as shorthand for manufactured weapon is with the precise phrasing "with a...weapon". If it doesn't say "with a", that paragraph doesn't apply. I have absolutely no idea why the words "with a" were correlated with shorthand for manufactured weapons, but they were (for instance, you'll often see things like "with a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike").
So how does the recent FAQ affect kineticists, precisely, if at all?
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So what does that mean for kinetic blade/whip? Is there an extra attack with haste or no?Likewise, things like Bardic Performance calls out adding bonus damage on weapon damage rolls, and per the FAQ, we now know that this is likely shorthand for "manufactured weapon damage rolls".This is a misunderstanding of the FAQ (it in fact specifically calls out inspire courage as an example where it applies to special abilities). The only time that the FAQ says to use weapon as shorthand for manufactured weapon is with the precise phrasing "with a...weapon". If it doesn't say "with a", that paragraph doesn't apply. I have absolutely no idea why the words "with a" were correlated with shorthand for manufactured weapons, but they were (for instance, you'll often see things like "with a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike").
Haste is kind of bizarre in its own special way because it probably doesn't apply to unarmed strikes either strictly as written. Haste's particular issues are beyond the FAQ's scope, but the FAQ also doesn't adjust what haste has been doing before (I personally recommend allowing haste to apply to all sorts of attacks that can make a full attack).
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So how does the recent FAQ affect kineticists, precisely, if at all?Likewise, things like Bardic Performance calls out adding bonus damage on weapon damage rolls, and per the FAQ, we now know that this is likely shorthand for "manufactured weapon damage rolls".This is a misunderstanding of the FAQ (it in fact specifically calls out inspire courage damage as an example where damage applies to special abilities). The only time that the FAQ says to use weapon as shorthand for manufactured weapon is with the precise phrasing "with a...weapon". If it doesn't say "with a", that paragraph doesn't apply. I have absolutely no idea why the words "with a" were correlated with shorthand for manufactured weapons, but they were (for instance, you'll often see things like "with a melee weapon, natural attack, or unarmed strike").
Basically, in most cases, it buffs them in games where GMs were refusing to allow inspire courage and the like to add damage to a kinetic blast due to the "weapon damage roll" clause in inspire courage (in the FAQ thread, several people said their GM did this, specifically disallowing with kinetic blasts in particular) by explicitly saying that you can. If your group was already allowing this, the FAQ probably doesn't affect your kineticist at all except in weird circumstances (Like if you attack with a kinetic blade but have a manufactured weapon in your off-hand that you don't attack with, your foe couldn't use Hold the Blade from Dragon Empires Gazetteer to disarm the off-hand weapon after your kinetic blade attack).
*breathes a sigh of relief*
Well I'm glad that is sorted. Now, back to making that kineticist I had planned and not cry silently the whole time. Cheers Mark.
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Well I'm glad that is sorted. Now, back to making that kineticist I had planned and not cry silently the whole time. Cheers Mark.
I'm glad to help as I can! And I don't blame you at all for being confused; the whole situation was made extra confusing by inconsistent wording in early books (we hope to be clearer moving on!).
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Well I'm glad that is sorted. Now, back to making that kineticist I had planned and not cry silently the whole time. Cheers Mark.I'm glad to help as I can! And I don't blame you at all for being confused; the whole situation was made extra confusing by inconsistent wording in early books (we hope to be clearer moving on!).
I'm glad to know none of this is an issue, I didn't want to have to FAQ something else in the guide.
Three cheers for Mark! Thank you, Mark, for peeking in here on your day off and clarifying this for us. I became a little upset when I was reading here, but now all can breath a sigh of relief. You, goodsir, are a god-send.
Mark, I would advise the design team to make a blog post further expanding on that FAQ then. Like going in to detail of possible examples of when things do, and do not apply, and the like. I've encountered a lot of people who read the FAQ a few times and came to the same conclusion I did in my previous post, and those people have gone off to post or talk about their conclusion and convinced others. Just as I did here. Hell, I was someone who was convinced myself after it was pointed out and I reread it like 5 times.
This is arguably one of the most confusing FAQs with possibly subtle, but wide reaching consequences.
This is arguably one of the most confusing FAQs with possibly subtle, but wide reaching consequences.
I'm what many consider to be a master rules lawyer, and I've read it three times, and I still don't fully understand it.
Mark, I would advise the design team to make a blog post further expanding on that FAQ then. Like going in to detail of possible examples of when things do, and do not apply, and the like. I've encountered a lot of people who read the FAQ a few times and came to the same conclusion I did in my previous post, and those people have gone off to post or talk about their conclusion and convinced others. Just as I did here. Hell, I was someone who was convinced myself after it was pointed out and I reread it like 5 times.
I totally agree. Further explanation will be required in order to avoid this "clarification" causing a LOT more confusion among roleplaying tables everywhere.
Totally agree with Tels and Ravindork. That clarification is very little clear.
When I saw this thread had 40 new posts for me to read, I rejoiced. I figured that there must be in depth discussion on the new planes of power kineticist archetype.
But no....
I won't be reading it till it comes out on d20. After the Ashiel thing, I'm not longer a Paizo customer, and, except for a handful of threads, I'm vacating the Paizo boards.
The "Ashiel thing"?
Board drama, suffice to say. With little to no understanding of it myself, and just a vague understanding from people who used these boards longer than I.
Hardly relevant to the discussion at hand XP
When I saw this thread had 40 new posts for me to read, I rejoiced. I figured that there must be in depth discussion on the new planes of power kineticist archetype.
But no....
.....Ditto......
Board drama, suffice to say. With little to no understanding of it myself, and just a vague understanding from people who used these boards longer than I.
Hardly relevant to the discussion at hand XP
Indeed, nothing to see here. Continue discussion.
I was oblivious to the issue addressed by the FAQ, myself. I "knew" Inspire Courage applied to most attacks, including Kinetic Blast. I just knew it...I promise. I really did...
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Thanks to the little fairy that keeps me in the loop, here's the review of the new archetype and magic item which have already been added to the guide:
Elemental Purist (*) I’m not really a fan here; this entire archetype feels like different class features smashed together, lacking theme, and limited buffer feels unnecessary. Overall, it just feels weird and sloppy and the name doesn’t even really fit the theme.
6th Limited Buffer (*) You know what I hate? Playing an archetype that takes away something before it gives something. That’s what we’re getting right here, and I don’t like it.
7th Elemental Impossibility (**) So first, this is kind of fun, you can apply an infusion to a blast with which it normally wouldn’t work, that’s pretty cool. But you have to accept 1 burn to do it, you lose expanded element (but you are compensated with a composite), but the duration is basically only one battle. This means you need to accept burn each battle to use, and that can really build up.
20th Elemental Apocalypse (*) Well this kind of comes out of nowhere. 1/day really isn’t great here, and while it can have a wide range, how often do you need this kind of destructive power? This is a big utility drop for a single big shot a day, which to me isn’t the best trade.
18,000 GP Rift-Bending Bracers (**) For 3 burn, you can make a portal to a few other planes. That’s pretty costly, burn wise, meaning you’re not doing much else that day, and even more if you want to bring along others. I can’t imagine needing to do this often enough to validate this purchase.
Don't worry, the archetypes from Horror are just as bad, if not worse...
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Don't worry, the archetypes from Horror are just as bad, if not worse...
I already reviewed those train wrecks, dark kineticist is both poorly named and poorly executed. I don't hate psychokineticist, but I just feel like it's so...mundane. It's amazing how little I've enjoyed the content for this class past its creation, and yet I continue to keep my guide updated for it, regardless of this disdain for its content.
Is there some secret agreement at Paizo to never make a good kineticist archetype?
I'm not the conspiratorial type normally but this makes Paizo what, 0 for 8 now?
Is there some secret agreement at Paizo to never make a good kineticist archetype?
I'm not the conspiratorial type normally but this makes Paizo what, 0 for 8 now?
That's not fair, they're technically 1/8 according to the guide, as the blood kineticist managed to score green.
Unless we're subtracting points for red, then we're at -3/8.
If only there was someone who knew how this class worked and had proven that time and time again...if only...
Is there some secret agreement at Paizo to never make a good kineticist archetype?
I'm not the conspiratorial type normally but this makes Paizo what, 0 for 8 now?
I have it.
Conspirokineticist.
Manipulates the element of...the Illuminati? And knowledge!
I promise, this is the next best kineticist element. Five stars all the way down.
I would totally play that element.
That's not fair, they're technically 1/8 according to the guide, as the blood kineticist managed to score green.
Maybe I'm just really spiteful but I feel like "fort save vs sickened" at level 9 for 3 burn should automatically make blood kineticist red.
So if a class feature gets a rainbow, does that mean it's double win to take for any builds?
I would totally play that element.
You are encouraging me to make a homebrew now.
A scry master kineticist could be pretty cool actually. Gotta study the kineticist pretty close though.
Good thing there is a guide!
Honestly, I think the Overwhelming Soul is decent enough to not completely dismiss it. The fact that it changes primary stat adds possibilities to it, like gestalting with a sorcerer for a super SAD build or picking up greater skilled kineticist(Diplomacy) to be an insanely skilled diplomat.
But no burn! You can't really boost anything you need burn to make better.
Its not optimal, and you lose out on your size bonuses and feeding your defense talent but changing your caster stat does open doors that are otherwise closed or difficult to go through. Its situational and dependent on how you want to build your character.
It does open some other options, but there are a lot of things that are good for dips or other odd builds and in the context of a straight kineticist you're losing a lot of damage, survivability and utility and gaining... 1/2 level to bluff or diplomacy if you spend two wild talents. That's got to be one of the worst archetype trades not just for the kineticist, but in all of pathfinder. Though the drake companion archetypes in Legacy of Dragons give it a good run for its money.
I'd rather play an Underwhelming Soul than use a neutered lizard though. At least then I have class features I can use at the level I get them how they are supposed to be used.
In unrelated news, I love the Elemental Limb talents. I've probably said that before, but they're just so COOL.
Am I understanding correctly that Aetheric Boost deals an extra point of damage for every d6 rolled, even for a composite blast? So at level 15, a physical composite blast boosted would deal 16d6+32+ConMod?
I could see a reading where a "damage die" is 2d6+2, so it'd only add 1 damage per 2d6. That seems like it would be unnecessarily restrictive, but it doesn't hurt to double check.
Am I understanding correctly that Aetheric Boost deals an extra point of damage for every d6 rolled, even for a composite blast? So at level 15, a physical composite blast boosted would deal 16d6+32+ConMod?
I could see a reading where a "damage die" is 2d6+2, so it'd only add 1 damage per 2d6. That seems like it would be unnecessarily restrictive, but it doesn't hurt to double check.
How do you get that? 2d6 means 2 damage die. 16d6 means 16 damage die and means +16 damage if aetheric boosted. If you rolled the dice, then add an additional +1.
What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
It's still a little iffy, but I believe you can only use the conductive ability with kinetic blast on ranged weapons, because kinetic blast is a ranged weapon.
It's still a little iffy, but I believe you can only use the conductive ability with kinetic blast on ranged weapons, because kinetic blast is a ranged weapon.What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
Wouldn't you be able to apply Kinetic Blade to an energy blast to circumvent that?
Wouldn't you be able to apply Kinetic Blade to an energy blast to circumvent that?It's still a little iffy, but I believe you can only use the conductive ability with kinetic blast on ranged weapons, because kinetic blast is a ranged weapon.What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
No. You'd have to modify the blast normally with the kinetic blade/whip infusion when making the attack. But conductive weapons get activated "When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability." The wielder of the conductive weapon activates the conductive ability after the attack is made, not actually getting the chance to actually apply the infusion because the attack already happened.
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Wouldn't you be able to apply Kinetic Blade to an energy blast to circumvent that?It's still a little iffy, but I believe you can only use the conductive ability with kinetic blast on ranged weapons, because kinetic blast is a ranged weapon.What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
Many, if not most, GMs would, but kinetic blade is technically a non-aiction that activates when you make an attack. It could be argued that, since you're not attacking with kinetic blade, you can't activate it to use as part of conductive.
There have been multiple debates about it in various threads, I've never followed it very closely enough to know the arguments each side uses. This is just a recollection of my skin readings of the debates.
Personally, I would never use conductive for this purpose as you don't benefit from Overflow with conductive. Kineticist itself has little to know support for using non-kinetic blast weapons, so you're basically wielding a weapon using only your BAB and ability scores. You don't have class features to boost the damage and accuracy of the attack for conductive to even come into play.
Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.
So for me, conductive is just not worth it. It may be an interesting niche strategy for a super-single shot attack. Like some super vital strike/conductive attack. But that would just make it a gimmick.
Wouldn't you be able to apply Kinetic Blade to an energy blast to circumvent that?It's still a little iffy, but I believe you can only use the conductive ability with kinetic blast on ranged weapons, because kinetic blast is a ranged weapon.What's the best weapons for use with the conductive weapon ability for kineticists?
Preferably those that don't require additional feats to use
You'd actually have to use the ability to be able to add the kinetic blade because the ability itself is a ranged SLA. You can only use conductive with ranged weapons and the energy touch attacks.