Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


Advice

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:


Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.

I'm not sure that's true. Conductive requires you to spend two uses, but kinetic blast doesn't run on a uses per day schedule.


If conductive were added to a Bow of Erastil and a mythic power used, would the blast be added to all enemies since it would count as a single shot?


Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.
I'm not sure that's true. Conductive requires you to spend two uses, but kinetic blast doesn't run on a uses per day schedule.

It doesn't work like that but its irrelevant because it wouldn't be possible anyways to add an infusion to the attack. To add an infusion you need to actually use the kinetic blast ability.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.
I'm not sure that's true. Conductive requires you to spend two uses, but kinetic blast doesn't run on a uses per day schedule.
It doesn't work like that but its irrelevant because it wouldn't be possible anyways to add an infusion to the attack. To add an infusion you need to actually use the kinetic blast ability.

So... you're saying that one could use an empowered, maximized, aetheric boosted composite kinetic blast through a conductive weapon... for 0 burn?


Tels wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.
I'm not sure that's true. Conductive requires you to spend two uses, but kinetic blast doesn't run on a uses per day schedule.
It doesn't work like that but its irrelevant because it wouldn't be possible anyways to add an infusion to the attack. To add an infusion you need to actually use the kinetic blast ability.
So... you're saying that one could use an empowered, maximized, aetheric boosted composite kinetic blast through a conductive weapon... for 0 burn?

No I'm saying you can only get your basic blast with no infusions or metakinesis for its 0 burn cost. You can't add an infusion or metakinesis because to add them you need to be using your SLA Kinetic Blast as your standard action but you already used your standard (or full attack) action to attack.

I'm not sure if it would allow a composite blast at all, but if it did then I'd say it still cost its burn but not double.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Tels wrote:
Texas Snyper wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Also, keep in mind that conductive requires you to pay twice the cost. So if you can't reduce the burn cost to 0, if will cost you double burn to use conductive. Since there is a limit on how much burn kineticist can accept each round, you may not even be able to pay the cost to activate conductive.
I'm not sure that's true. Conductive requires you to spend two uses, but kinetic blast doesn't run on a uses per day schedule.
It doesn't work like that but its irrelevant because it wouldn't be possible anyways to add an infusion to the attack. To add an infusion you need to actually use the kinetic blast ability.
So... you're saying that one could use an empowered, maximized, aetheric boosted composite kinetic blast through a conductive weapon... for 0 burn?

No I'm saying you can only get your basic blast with no infusions or metakinesis for its 0 burn cost. You can't add an infusion or metakinesis because to add them you need to be using your SLA Kinetic Blast as your standard action but you already used your standard (or full attack) action to attack.

I'm not sure if it would allow a composite blast at all, but if it did then I'd say it still cost its burn but not double.

Since you can combine an empowered or maximized metakinesis for kinetic healer, I imagine you should be able to use it with conductive, as you aren't using kinetic blase when you use kinetic healer, it just heals equal to your blast damage, and you can increase the damage by choosing to use metakinesis or composite or both.

As for burn cost... remember, you have to be able to use your ability twice to use conductive. Since you "activate" it twice, you have to pay for it twice. Each "activation" of a composite blast causes burn. If you "activate" composite blast for conductive, then you would take the burn twice, hence, double the cost.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:


Since you can combine an empowered or maximized metakinesis for kinetic healer

Can you source this? I can't seem to find anything corroborating that right now.


Tels wrote:
Since you can combine an empowered or maximized metakinesis for kinetic healer, I imagine you should be able to use it with conductive, as you aren't using kinetic blase when you use kinetic healer, it just heals equal to your blast damage, and you can increase the damage by choosing to use metakinesis or composite or both.

You cannot empower or maximize a kinetic healer. Your metakinesis modifies your kinetic blast:

Quote:
At 5th level, a kineticist gains the ability to alter her kinetic blasts...

And the kinetic healer ability is not kinetic blast, it is its own ability and simply uses your kinetic blast's roll to determine the amount. Any static gains to your blast (higher CON, elemental overflow, etc) can go into increasing the heal but you cannot metakinesis it just like you cannot gather power to negate the burn.

Quote:
As for burn cost... remember, you have to be able to use your ability twice to use conductive. Since you "activate" it twice, you have to pay for it twice. Each "activation" of a composite blast causes burn. If you "activate" composite blast for conductive, then you would take the burn twice, hence, double the cost.

I suppose a conductive composite blast would cost double burn.


Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Since you can combine an empowered or maximized metakinesis for kinetic healer
Can you source this? I can't seem to find anything corroborating that right now.

Huh... I honestly can't. I could swear there was a post in this thread of the Ask Mark thread in which he stated effects that modify how much damage your kinetic blast does also effect how much you heal with kinetic healer. But I can't find such a post. It may have been one of those posts where he quoted a list of questions and it got cut off and he just answered, "Yes," or I may be crazy. Either way, I can't find it.

So, unless someone else finds it, or Mark steps in, nix that whole idea. :P


Tels wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Tels wrote:


Since you can combine an empowered or maximized metakinesis for kinetic healer
Can you source this? I can't seem to find anything corroborating that right now.

Huh... I honestly can't. I could swear there was a post in this thread of the Ask Mark thread in which he stated effects that modify how much damage your kinetic blast does also effect how much you heal with kinetic healer. But I can't find such a post. It may have been one of those posts where he quoted a list of questions and it got cut off and he just answered, "Yes," or I may be crazy. Either way, I can't find it.

So, unless someone else finds it, or Mark steps in, nix that whole idea. :P

It's actually from much earlier in this thread itself (kind of).

Here is a big Q&A. The Kinetic Healer one is the sixth one, but the linked source seems to be broken for me.


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Squiggit wrote:
I would totally play that element.

And now you can.

I have made the Coniurokineticist, as promised.

Hopefully I got all the mechanics and language right. I mean, for a silly first draft that isn't unexpected.

Hire me, Paizo, I am good developer with many ideas.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I would totally play that element.

And now you can.

I have made the Coniurokineticist, as promised.

Hopefully I got all the mechanics and language right. I mean, for a silly first draft that isn't unexpected.

Hire me, Paizo, I am good developer with many ideas.

Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fourshadow wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I would totally play that element.

And now you can.

I have made the Coniurokineticist, as promised.

Hopefully I got all the mechanics and language right. I mean, for a silly first draft that isn't unexpected.

Hire me, Paizo, I am good developer with many ideas.

Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.

Ah I'm...sorry, Ill go put it in the appropriate place and link it but I made it mostly because I was talking about it and made it as a joke.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I love accidental pigeon blast. No idea how it, deliberate or betrayal would look as kinetic blades though.

Fourshadow wrote:


Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.

While I agree we shouldn't really derail, like a third of this thread is about KOP which is decidedly not Paizo.


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Squiggit wrote:
I love accidental pigeon blast. No idea how it, deliberate or betrayal would look as kinetic blades though.

That is confidential.

Quote:
Fourshadow wrote:


Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.
While I agree we shouldn't really derail, like a third of this thread is about KOP which is decidedly not Paizo.

And that is why I made a thread over here. You can give me feedback if you want to see this joke class more functional.

Sorry for the derailing. VwV


Fourshadow wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
I would totally play that element.

And now you can.

I have made the Coniurokineticist, as promised.

Hopefully I got all the mechanics and language right. I mean, for a silly first draft that isn't unexpected.

Hire me, Paizo, I am good developer with many ideas.

Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.

Hey there, N. Jolly! I wanted to ask about...about...wait a minute, you're not N. Jolly, or a moderator, or anyone who's even slightly in a position to judge what should or shouldn't be in a thread! Maybe you should have just flagged this and moved on rather than trying to play thread police, because that isn't your job.

Think this post is off topic? Maybe flag it and move on, like you're supposed to.

So I do stay on topic, I really do think the conductive weapon strategy would be really fun for an NPC, I kind of want to work on building one. What's the best way of incorporating conductive into a build?


Kinetic whip in one hand and a conductive firearm in the other?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
kadance wrote:
Kinetic whip in one hand and a conductive firearm in the other?

Preferably a dragon pistol.


Squiggit wrote:
kadance wrote:
Kinetic whip in one hand and a conductive firearm in the other?
Preferably a dragon pistol.

Wait, does this affect every target hit with the conductive weapon?

That is a phenomenal amount of damage! I am intrigued!


I can't find much on RAW, but with the smite/magic missile faq and the normal rules for things like multishot, I would assume (and rule as DM) that the conductive property only affected one target.


kadance wrote:
I can't find much on RAW, but with the smite/magic missile faq and the normal rules for things like multishot, I would assume (and rule as DM) that the conductive property only affected one target.

That is a good question, because that FAQ is dealing with attacks. So how many attacks is a dragon pistol actually making? As many attack rolls as they can make in their cone (as they are weapon attacks I think), or is the individual cone a singular attack with multiple attack rolls (a bit like scorching ray based on a cone effect).

I would have to agree that it seems like it would only apply once to one attack.

A firearm is still a pretty strong choice for conductive, however, just because it's an attack aimed at touch AC, and that means you will have next to no attack bonus problems.


Kinetic Form says it doesn't alter your ability scores in any way, does this include Dex and attack penalties?


Haldelar Baxter wrote:
Kinetic Form says it doesn't alter your ability scores in any way, does this include Dex and attack penalties?

By ability scores it means strength and dex (and the others) size bonuses or pentities not related to ability scores such as cmb and the stealth skill are still applied normally.

My favorite thing about kinetic form is that it let's a small character jump straight to large, no stopping at medium!


Haldelar Baxter wrote:
Kinetic Form says it doesn't alter your ability scores in any way, does this include Dex and attack penalties?

You apply all size changes except ability score changes. You take the attack and AC penalties, you gain the CMB/CMD bonuses, you get all the size modifiers to related skill checks (-stealth, +intimidate, etc), and you gain the appropriate reach. Apply every change, as if you had enlarge person cast on you, except for the ability score changes.


Thanks, since it doesn't actually change your size (and thus your clothes) would you be technically immune to theft abilities since kinetic Form basically covers you in elemental matter, some refer it to as basically being in a mech

Which would make me wonder about different bodily functions long term (current line of thinking is for infiltration of castle occupied by giants but subterfuge by illusion covering kinetic form to appear as a giant)

Sovereign Court

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
kadance wrote:
I can't find much on RAW, but with the smite/magic missile faq and the normal rules for things like multishot, I would assume (and rule as DM) that the conductive property only affected one target.

That is a good question, because that FAQ is dealing with attacks. So how many attacks is a dragon pistol actually making? As many attack rolls as they can make in their cone (as they are weapon attacks I think), or is the individual cone a singular attack with multiple attack rolls (a bit like scorching ray based on a cone effect).

I would have to agree that it seems like it would only apply once to one attack.

A firearm is still a pretty strong choice for conductive, however, just because it's an attack aimed at touch AC, and that means you will have next to no attack bonus problems.

The scatter quality says that you make a separate attack roll against each target in the cone, so it sounds like conductive does affect each roll but I wouldn't be surprised if it was FAQ'd to not.


I looked into it more and missed one important piece of the rules. A given character can only use a conductive weapon once per round. So no problem.

Though this does nake things hard to build around a conductive weapon.


Squiggit wrote:

I love accidental pigeon blast. No idea how it, deliberate or betrayal would look as kinetic blades though.

Fourshadow wrote:


Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.
While I agree we shouldn't really derail, like a third of this thread is about KOP which is decidedly not Paizo.

I know it is--N. Jolly has made the effort to fix that, too. Follow his links, please.

Silver Crusade

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Fourshadow wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

I love accidental pigeon blast. No idea how it, deliberate or betrayal would look as kinetic blades though.

Fourshadow wrote:


Aaaaand this is a Paizo thread, not 3PP...that's for other forums.
While I agree we shouldn't really derail, like a third of this thread is about KOP which is decidedly not Paizo.
I know it is--N. Jolly has made the effort to fix that, too. Follow his links, please.

Hey, can you stop policing my thread? I didn't ask you to, I don't appreciate it, and I can take care of it myself.


How much force would telekinetic haul be able to produce? For example could you pick up a large boulder and clear a path through a forest, and also with a large enough object could you push other creatures in one direction or another?

So short question, how much opposing force will stop an object moved by telekinetic haul?


Haldelar Baxter wrote:

How much force would telekinetic haul be able to produce? For example could you pick up a large boulder and clear a path through a forest, and also with a large enough object could you push other creatures in one direction or another?

So short question, how much opposing force will stop an object moved by telekinetic haul?

Unfortunately, I don't know that you can technically do those things with telekinetic haul/basic telekinesis, just like fireballs don't actually create forceful explosions and you can't just walk into somebody and automatically push them out of the way or knock them over--there are specific rules covering that sort of thing (bull rush, overrun, trip.) In this case the "pushing people around with things" part would be covered by kinetic blast + pushing infusion, although not without some damage. You could probably finagle something equivalent to using your pushing kinetic blast at a reduced caster level so that you only deal 1d6+1 damage, if you just want to push people without killing them. Otherwise you can wait and pick up telekinetic maneuvers at level 8 to just push people around directly.

I've actually got semi-related questions, mostly about affecting things that are anchored in some way. Like, can I uproot small trees? Can I rip doors off their hinges? I've been in a few fights now where those things would be both useful and awesome, but I've refrained because I didn't want to throw my relatively inexperienced GM too many curveballs. I know there's probably not going to be an official answer to this, but has anybody else tried anything like this, and if so how did you handle it? The telekinetic force power from Psionics Unleashed includes rules for making telekinetic Strength checks to break things, but the telekinesis spell doesn't address that--and mage hand, which basic telekinesis/telekinetic haul is based on, obviously doesn't, either.

Lantern Lodge

Can you take the penalty on your blast to do non-lethal damage?


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Genuine wrote:
Can you take the penalty on your blast to do non-lethal damage?

No. This is evidenced by the existence of both the expanded metakinesis feat, which allows a nonlethal option, and the merciful foliage utility wild talent, which explicitly turns your blast damag into nonlethal damage.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Genuine wrote:
Can you take the penalty on your blast to do non-lethal damage?

Only with kinetic blade. Note here:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

So it's specified to be melee only, normally, barring something allowing it (such as with blunt arrows).

Edit: Though as Ravingdork notes, you can take the Expanded Metakinesis feat to use it with your blast, and without a penalty to your attack roll to boot, or take the Wood element and acquire their merciful foilage utility talent.


Do Kineticists receive extra class skills with Expanded Element? I think the answer is no, but I wanted to double check.

If not, it might be worth calling that out in the guide. As is, the only mention of the class skills that I see is the listing under each element, which kind of implies that you get them as long as you pick up the element at some point.

Lantern Lodge

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?


Genuine wrote:

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?

I'd say it falls on the ground like a normal disarm, but then you could use basic tk to pick it up as a separate action (assuming the target hasn't picked it up, first.)

Lantern Lodge

wynterknight wrote:
Genuine wrote:

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?

I'd say it falls on the ground like a normal disarm, but then you could use basic tk to pick it up as a separate action (assuming the target hasn't picked it up, first.)

Not quite as fun. :/ I like the jedi sort of image where stuff snaps into my hands. At least propelling an item 15' is just a move action with mage hand, so if I don't move I can still deny stuff to my target.


ZZTRaider wrote:

Do Kineticists receive extra class skills with Expanded Element? I think the answer is no, but I wanted to double check.

If not, it might be worth calling that out in the guide. As is, the only mention of the class skills that I see is the listing under each element, which kind of implies that you get them as long as you pick up the element at some point.

Extra class skills are only part of the Elemental Focus (Ex) class feature which Expanded Element doesn't grant. Rather Expanded Element grants some of what the Elemental Focus offers, but not all: "one of that element's simple blast wild talents that she does not already possess, if any. She also gains all composite blast wild talents whose prerequisites she meets, as well as the basic wild talent of her chosen expanded element (for instance, basic aerokinesis if she chooses air)."


Genuine wrote:
wynterknight wrote:
Genuine wrote:

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?

I'd say it falls on the ground like a normal disarm, but then you could use basic tk to pick it up as a separate action (assuming the target hasn't picked it up, first.)
Not quite as fun. :/ I like the jedi sort of image where stuff snaps into my hands. At least propelling an item 15' is just a move action with mage hand, so if I don't move I can still deny stuff to my target.

Oh, I agree it's not as cool, but unfortunately in a rules-heavy system like this, cool is often overriden by rules. If you're playing a home game, I'd talk to your DM and see what they'll allow; it's not like it's a particularly overpowered thing to do, and there's a sort of precedent with the pilfering hand spell, which allows for you to pull the item to yourself.


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wynterknight wrote:
Genuine wrote:
wynterknight wrote:
Genuine wrote:

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?

I'd say it falls on the ground like a normal disarm, but then you could use basic tk to pick it up as a separate action (assuming the target hasn't picked it up, first.)
Not quite as fun. :/ I like the jedi sort of image where stuff snaps into my hands. At least propelling an item 15' is just a move action with mage hand, so if I don't move I can still deny stuff to my target.
Oh, I agree it's not as cool, but unfortunately in a rules-heavy system like this, cool is often overriden by rules. If you're playing a home game, I'd talk to your DM and see what they'll allow; it's not like it's a particularly overpowered thing to do, and there's a sort of precedent with the pilfering hand spell, which allows for you to pull the item to yourself.

Disarming weapon wielding enemy is one of the best things you can do to them. Typically, anyway. You take the sword from a high level martial, and you gut much of their offensive power.

If this were allowed, a telekinetic could use a wand of true strike to, basically, auto succeed the disarm and then yank the powerful artifact or weapon away from an enemy.

It may be a simple thing, but it's also very powerful if used right as you simultaneously disarm them, and remove the weapon from their reach.


N. Jolly wrote:

Weapon

+1 Bonuses
Numbered Bonuses (****) (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5) Since you only have 5 bonuses to play around with, these are very important, as adding to your accuracy is of the highest importance.
Agile (***) Personally I like using dex for my strikes, but it isn’t the most important thing, so it’s your call here.
Elemental (***) (Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid) For some of you, this is just another 1d6 added to your normal strikes, which since you’re focusing on elemental already, isn’t bad.
Guided (***) I like this a little less than Agile, but for those of you who want a high will save, wis is nice to boost. This is PURPLE (*****) for Elemental Ascetics, since you base everything on wisdom.

+2 Bonuses
Aligned (****) (Holy/Unholy/Anarchistic/Axiomatic) Eventually you’re going to want this just to make sure you can get through certain damage reduction, since it’s the only way for your strikes to count as aligned.

I am sorry if this was answered earlier in the thread but I am building a Kineticist for one of my players for a higher level game and was wondering about this portion of your guide. How is N.Jolly getting these bonuses? There is no item, explanation, or cost and so I am just sort of confused.

Silver Crusade

That's just for conductive weapons, either that or melee attacks with kinetic fist.


Ok, thanks for the clarification N. Jolly, I love your work.


Haldelar Baxter wrote:

How much force would telekinetic haul be able to produce? For example could you pick up a large boulder and clear a path through a forest, and also with a large enough object could you push other creatures in one direction or another?

So short question, how much opposing force will stop an object moved by telekinetic haul?

Telekinesis shenanigans are allowed almost entirely subject to GM fiat. The issue is that basic telekinesis (and by extension TK Haul and Finesse) are based on Mage Hand and Mage Hand has that ambiguous word "unattended" in there. Obviously you're not supposed to be able to yank someone's sword out of their hand (at least without TK Maneuvers), but it's worth trying to pin down what your GM thinks "unattended" means.

-If I lift a board in the air and then a bird lands on it, does it become attended and then fall?

-If I lift a plank in the air and then a party member steps onto it, does it become attended and then fall?

- Can I rig a simple pulley system to create a makeshift elevator and use telekinesis to lift the counterweight while the party stands on the platform to be raised?

- Once I gain the ability to fly (with greater self TK) can I use TK Haul to lift up, say, a balloon attached to a basket that the party is standing in.

But as for "how much force can you exert" with Telekinetic Haul, I think the answer is fairly clear: "100*level pounds of force" (so roughly 445 newtons per level.) The question is "when is that force negated by the limits inherent in Mage Hand." Most GMs will tend to be fairly permissive (since every GM likes clever players) except when your shenanigans entirely circumvents some scene the GM wants to run.

The one thing that I think the rules ought to address is that when there are stuck doors with a given strength check to force open, can I push them open with my mind (not a TK blast to obliterate the door, just a good push/pull to get it unstuck)? This seems like a thing a telekineticist ought to be good at, but isn't really addressed anywhere I can find.


One of the downsides to the telekinetic is that, while a seemingly some concept, it's also one of theabilities that, in many ways, needs one of the largest rules sections for.

In most ways, telekinesis is the basis behind all other kinesis, so it should have quite a bit of crossover with other abilities. Like being able to use Control Water, but at a lower effective caster level. Or whip flames into an inferno by telekinetically gusting the wind to feed the fire.

But it also has so much potential to just utterly wreck things. If you try and math out the amount of force that TK Haul exerts, you can do phenomenal things. I mean, find out how much force is required to lift 7,000 pounds 30 ft in approx. 3 seconds and that will tell you how many Newtons of force a 7th level telekinetic exerts. Which is quite a lot. Being able to exert that much force should let you tear through walls in an instant, hurl small objects incredible distances, fear chunks out of the ground or buildings to use as weapons etc.

Doing this "right" though, would require tons of rules. The telekinetic, I think, is probably the aspect of the Kineticist I would houserule the most, should someone use one in my games.

In my opinion, a telekinetic should be, arguably, one of the most utterly terrifying things on the battlefield.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
The one thing that I think the rules ought to address is that when there are stuck doors with a given strength check to force open, can I push them open with my mind (not a TK blast to obliterate the door, just a good push/pull to get it unstuck)? This seems like a thing a telekineticist ought to...

This is something I was wondering, since Doors are unattended objects. How much force does it take to rip a door out of a wall? Because with TK Haul you can almost certainly exert that much force. You just sort of grab it and walk backwards till the hinges give out from.

Well it turns out the Kineticist is actually pretty balanced.

Taking the 7th level Tekekinetic you have 7000lbs of force at 10ft a second which comes to 3175.147 meters at 3.048 meters a second which is 9677.848 newtons of force. This sounds like a lot but comes out to about the bite strength of an adult alligator.

Now if you have Extreme Range you can double the speed to 6.096 mps and that gives you 19355.696 which is a little more than the force of a Great White Shark.

Now keep in mind that the bite of a Great White Shark still has a ton of energy in it, but even a staggeringly huge number of Newtons like 19k isn't all that much in the long run.

Accelerate to 20th level and you have 20,000 at 6.096 and lets see what happens. 121,920 Newtons which ends up roughly a little more than what a seatbelt and an airbag would apply to a passenger in a carcrash with a stationary object at 100 miles per hour.

Is that a whole bunch of force? Yes. But it ends up being 1/9th the force of the maximum pulling force of a single large diesel-electric locomotive. So remember, carrying the weight is impressive but it doesn't take nearly as much force as you think it does.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tels wrote:

One of the downsides to the telekinetic is that, while a seemingly some concept, it's also one of theabilities that, in many ways, needs one of the largest rules sections for.

In most ways, telekinesis is the basis behind all other kinesis, so it should have quite a bit of crossover with other abilities. Like being able to use Control Water, but at a lower effective caster level. Or whip flames into an inferno by telekinetically gusting the wind to feed the fire.

But it also has so much potential to just utterly wreck things. If you try and math out the amount of force that TK Haul exerts, you can do phenomenal things. I mean, find out how much force is required to lift 7,000 pounds 30 ft in approx. 3 seconds and that will tell you how many Newtons of force a 7th level telekinetic exerts. Which is quite a lot. Being able to exert that much force should let you tear through walls in an instant, hurl small objects incredible distances, fear chunks out of the ground or buildings to use as weapons etc.

Doing this "right" though, would require tons of rules. The telekinetic, I think, is probably the aspect of the Kineticist I would houserule the most, should someone use one in my games.

In my opinion, a telekinetic should be, arguably, one of the most utterly terrifying things on the battlefield.

I wouldn't worry to much about it. Like most things involving ancient conspiracies and shadowy cabals a game of Pathfinder will break down when you start applying actual math to the situation.


Just picked up Horror Adventures today, do people tend to think that an improved (small elemental or Wysp) familiar is worth 2 utility talents?

The whole "you don't really need anybody to hold your wands" thing makes it less appealing for a Kineticist.

I guess the basic Elemental Whispers is potentially the best use of the human FCB at level 6 (aether, notably, doesn't have a lot to pick there.)


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You do have Use Magic Device as a class skill, though I probably wouldn't trust a fire elemental with scrolls, and aether elementals can go invisible and have ranged attacks, which is nice. As for wysps, a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage, and for a kinetic whip or fist user, it can potentially give a +4 to an attack or to AC. If you utilize spark of life, it can also give summoned elementals a +2 bonus to attack rolls and damage. And since you're a kineticist, whichever you pick, it's going to have reasonable HP since it's based off your total hit points, and you probably have sky-high Constitution. Overall, I think it's safe to say it could definitely be of at least some use...

Edit: Do kind of wish they automatically got your elemental defense, though, possibly the ability to use utility talents for you in a limited capacity. Might make for a cool feat or additional utility talent, that.

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