Im also dropping the thread for the unchained Kineticist off right here so that this thread doesn't get off topic. Unchained Kineticist
I can't format anything as I'm on a very weak mobile phone and have very limited access to an actual desktop computer. But the link is still there I guess. Have fun
Linked it for you.
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So I've read through this whole guide, and I've got one question thats reaaaaaally been bugging me:
Does Gold count as a prerequisite for crafting? If so, Kinetic Crafter might need some errata.
Well you can boost the crafting DC by 5 to be able to craft things, but it's something I'll look at since it's in a product which I wrote (always nice being the author).
So I've read through this whole guide, and I've got one question thats reaaaaaally been bugging me:
Does Gold count as a prerequisite for crafting? If so, Kinetic Crafter might need some errata.
This should go in the 3rd party version of this thread, but in general prerequisites are things that cannot be taken away from you (skill ranks, attributes, feats) and not things that come and go like gold and other materials.
Hey, Mark! I was just wondering if Elemental Whispers (Wild Talent) counts as a familiar for being able to apply archetypes to your elemental buddy. Also, can said buddy use skills (well, non-physical skills) or take mental actions when not manifested, or do you need to manifest it for it to actually be an entity capable of actions (such as making knowledge or perception checks)?There's never going to be an official ruling due to the fact that the whole "familiar archetypes" concept only excepts in PComps, so RPG line books like Horror Adventures can't reference them. There's some weird things about trying to apply them to variant familiars overall (since they aren't classes so might have weird things that conflict with each other like hypothetical figment and elemental whispers), but if someone wanted to do so with elemental whispers in my game, as long as the two didn't alter the same familiar abilities (elemental whispers text, if we read through it, removes speak with animals of its kind and makes adjustments to Alertness) or introduce another conflict (like figment above, though it already doesn't work due to speak with animals of its kind), it should be OK.
Presumably it can take mental actions in your head, such as Knowledge checks, but it can only communicate empathically at first.
Based on this, what familiar archtypes are left available?
Based on this, what familiar archtypes are left available?Hey, Mark! I was just wondering if Elemental Whispers (Wild Talent) counts as a familiar for being able to apply archetypes to your elemental buddy. Also, can said buddy use skills (well, non-physical skills) or take mental actions when not manifested, or do you need to manifest it for it to actually be an entity capable of actions (such as making knowledge or perception checks)?There's never going to be an official ruling due to the fact that the whole "familiar archetypes" concept only excepts in PComps, so RPG line books like Horror Adventures can't reference them. There's some weird things about trying to apply them to variant familiars overall (since they aren't classes so might have weird things that conflict with each other like hypothetical figment and elemental whispers), but if someone wanted to do so with elemental whispers in my game, as long as the two didn't alter the same familiar abilities (elemental whispers text, if we read through it, removes speak with animals of its kind and makes adjustments to Alertness) or introduce another conflict (like figment above, though it already doesn't work due to speak with animals of its kind), it should be OK.
Presumably it can take mental actions in your head, such as Knowledge checks, but it can only communicate empathically at first.
Possibly only Emissary and Sage, from Familiar Folio, between that book and Animal Archive
they draw rock from the elemental plane of rock, just like fire is pulling from the plane of fire. AKA, they effectively create their element and their creation exists just long enough to do the thing.
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they draw rock from the elemental plane of rock, just like fire is pulling from the plane of fire. AKA, they effectively create their element and their creation exists just long enough to do the thing.Cool, thanks for the quick reply. Do you have the source for that by chance? I'll probably be asked at some point
How about me? Hopefully that carries enough weight for you. ;) Also you can use Material Plane rock from nearby if you visually prefer to do so, your choice.
I hope you didn't design the archetypes too. I mean, it's cool if you did and all, but I'd like an archetype I'd actually use that is Paizo published(though N. Jolly's are amazing).
I hope you didn't design the archetypes too. I mean, it's cool if you did and all, but I'd like an archetype I'd actually use that is Paizo published(though N. Jolly's are amazing).
I think the problem is that the class abilities are so finely interwoven to work together for the class as a whole to work as it does in its well balanced state that any archetype that fiddles with those abilities disrupts that balance and are therefore underwhelming compared to the base class.
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I hope you didn't design the archetypes too. I mean, it's cool if you did and all, but I'd like an archetype I'd actually use that is Paizo published(though N. Jolly's are amazing).I think the problem is that the class abilities are so finely interwoven to work together for the class as a whole to work as it does in its well balanced state that any archetype that fiddles with those abilities disrupts that balance and are therefore underwhelming compared to the base class.
This is often the case, and it's a much better situation than the other possibility which is an archetype that you would always take because it's a strict upgrade (gunslinger suffered from that one and some of the issues people have with the class stemmed from its archetypes and not the base class). That said, I think blood kineticist and elemental purist are both pretty good (witha shoutout to the freelancer and developer on purist for both having cool stuff and also not invalidating mono-element non-purists, which most ways to write a mono-element archetype would do), and while annihilator isn't my personal playstyle, it can lead to a brutal switch-hitter.
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I hope you didn't design the archetypes too. I mean, it's cool if you did and all, but I'd like an archetype I'd actually use that is Paizo published(though N. Jolly's are amazing).I think the problem is that the class abilities are so finely interwoven to work together for the class as a whole to work as it does in its well balanced state that any archetype that fiddles with those abilities disrupts that balance and are therefore underwhelming compared to the base class.
There's a ton of moving parts in this class, and I've seen a lot of design for archetypes suffer in this class from not really recognizing how best to alter it. It takes a lot of insight to actually make something that's along the same power level, but I think that's something I've managed to do with this class, and I'm glad my efforts have been appreciated.
I've been lucky enough to work with publishers who have let me do my own thing, and that's lead to some straight up awesome archetypes like Dimensional Ripper and Corpse Puppeteer.
Not to mention the lovely Dragon Pact Kineticist that can make Kinetic Fist, you know, worth it.
Dragon Pact Kineticist?
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Considering the kineticist is one those classes that has built in archetypes(like sorcerers, oracles, bloodragers, etc.) they do not need archetypes, they need more elements and wild talents.
Considering the kineticist is one those classes that has built in archetypes(like sorcerers, oracles, bloodragers, etc.) they do not need archetypes, they need more elements and wild talents.
Well, I don't think they need more elements unless Paizo is going to devote whole books to the Kineticist (or you're going to go the third party route that does that). As it stands, the "new elements" not in Occult Adventures are woefully under-supported. More wild talents would be greatly appreciated, but it's probably difficult to justify a lot of column inches to Kineticist stuff because it applies to precisely one class, unlike feats or spells or equipment that potentially apply to many classes.
Right now, the thing I'd most appreciate is "more items, magic or otherwise, that actually apply to a kineticist" since as it stands right now, playing one is an exercise in "hocking everything you find to buy defensive items and stat boosters."
Dragon Pact Kineticist?
Kineticists of Porphyra II.
oh 3pp :(
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Considering the kineticist is one those classes that has built in archetypes(like sorcerers, oracles, bloodragers, etc.) they do not need archetypes, they need more elements and wild talents.Well, I don't think they need more elements unless Paizo is going to devote whole books to the Kineticist (or you're going to go the third party route that does that). As it stands, the "new elements" not in Occult Adventures are woefully under-supported. More wild talents would be greatly appreciated, but it's probably difficult to justify a lot of column inches to Kineticist stuff because it applies to precisely one class, unlike feats or spells or equipment that potentially apply to many classes.
Right now, the thing I'd most appreciate is "more items, magic or otherwise, that actually apply to a kineticist" since as it stands right now, playing one is an exercise in "hocking everything you find to buy defensive items and stat boosters."
As far as 1p goes, the number one thing the kineticist needs is more wild talents. We need enough talents on wood and void to make them viable as primary elements, and we need enough talents for the 5 primary elements so there's actual decisions at each level rather than just 'pick the obvious and/or only choice at each level' so that the class feels like it has real options rather than what it feels like now, which is that each option is chosen for you. Only Aether and Earth feel like they have real choice, and even that's only by a slim margin.
I'd probably say items is the next largest concern for them, since the class could use more individual item support. Just some general purpose items that support themes and ideas would do wonders for making the class feel better.
New elements is a distant third, especially if we don't solve the first problem of lacking wild talents, since seeing as the last two new elements we received have very large problems (wood not even really having a basic talent and void only having one bad 1st level talent), we're just going to have more problems with choices that don't matter.
oh 3pp :(
If you're not playing in PFS, it's worth checking out, and I'm not just saying that since I'm the handsome and heroic writer of it.
yeah, but all I play now is PFS since all those players have home games that are in the middle of and have been playing for a year already so not looking for new players.
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I agree with N. Jolly that we need more wild talents for existing elements the most, especially wood and void, by an order of magnitude more than the other things. Fortunately, the prospects look quite good for a product soonish that provides this, not to the crazy extent that I would go if unleashed to make a kineticist-only book that wouldn't sell our usual numbers due to the limited audience but would make me happy, but still to an amount where I could actually feel the options opening up while writing them in my gut (I'm weird and sometimes design things cause me to feel things in my gut, like when a rule is super messed up and too strong or doesn't actually work, I get a mild physical pang while reading it, or when it's really opens up new stuff, it feels good).
What 1P needs now, more than anything, is a book dedicated to the Kineticist only. New feats, wild talents, items and the like. The feats don't have to be specific to the Kineticist, but at least relevant to her. Same with items and the like. Unfortunately, I highly doubt Paizo would ever publish such a book, because it's not general enough. If they keep going through with the current model, then she'll only get a handful of talents introduced per year.
If the Kinetcist is ever really going to thrive with options, compared to other classes, it must get a stand-alone book to itself. You simply can't expect to introduce a few talents per book, per year, and think people will be happy with it. It simply won't work, the class will stagnate due to a lack of choices.
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I agree with N. Jolly that we need more wild talents for existing elements the most, especially wood and void, by an order of magnitude more than the other things. Fortunately, the prospects look quite good for a product soonish that provides this, not to the crazy extent that I would go if unleashed to make a kineticist-only book that wouldn't sell our usual numbers due to the limited audience but would make me happy, but still to an amount where I could actually feel the options opening up while writing them in my gut (I'm weird and sometimes design things cause me to feel things in my gut, like when a rule is super messed up and too strong or doesn't actually work, I get a mild physical pang while reading it, or when it's really opens up new stuff, it feels good).
While I'm happy to hear you'll be working on this, can you PLEASE get N. Jolly to help write some of this? He's kind of redefined the class through 3pp products and a lot of what he's written has been amazing. I don't think I'm alone in believing that he'd be a huge asset in helping expand the first party options for this class.
I agree with N. Jolly that we need more wild talents for existing elements the most, especially wood and void, by an order of magnitude more than the other things. Fortunately, the prospects look quite good for a product soonish that provides this, not to the crazy extent that I would go if unleashed to make a kineticist-only book that wouldn't sell our usual numbers due to the limited audience but would make me happy, but still to an amount where I could actually feel the options opening up while writing them in my gut (I'm weird and sometimes design things cause me to feel things in my gut, like when a rule is super messed up and too strong or doesn't actually work, I get a mild physical pang while reading it, or when it's really opens up new stuff, it feels good).While I'm happy to hear you'll be working on this, can you PLEASE get N. Jolly to help write some of this? He's kind of redefined the class through 3pp products and a lot of what he's written has been amazing. I don't think I'm alone in believing that he'd be a huge asset in helping expand the first party options for this class.
Well, what do you think happened to cause N. Jolly to not have time to write guides? <_< ... >_> JK, I have no idea why. I just found it to be an interesting coincidence.
I agree that wild talents are what is needed most for the class. But I still really, really want to see a positive energy based element one day.
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Well, what do you think happened to cause N. Jolly to not have time to write guides? <_< ... >_> JK, I have no idea why. I just found it to be an interesting coincidence.I agree with N. Jolly that we need more wild talents for existing elements the most, especially wood and void, by an order of magnitude more than the other things. Fortunately, the prospects look quite good for a product soonish that provides this, not to the crazy extent that I would go if unleashed to make a kineticist-only book that wouldn't sell our usual numbers due to the limited audience but would make me happy, but still to an amount where I could actually feel the options opening up while writing them in my gut (I'm weird and sometimes design things cause me to feel things in my gut, like when a rule is super messed up and too strong or doesn't actually work, I get a mild physical pang while reading it, or when it's really opens up new stuff, it feels good).While I'm happy to hear you'll be working on this, can you PLEASE get N. Jolly to help write some of this? He's kind of redefined the class through 3pp products and a lot of what he's written has been amazing. I don't think I'm alone in believing that he'd be a huge asset in helping expand the first party options for this class.
You sound kinda bummed about that; I will admit I do wish I had time left to continue doing guides; but life gets in the way. Especially when that life is doing my own content for other publishers.
I will admit I wouldn't turn down the chance to do some 1p work for the kineticist, as I'd like to think I know the class pretty well.
I agree with N. Jolly that we need more wild talents for existing elements the most, especially wood and void, by an order of magnitude more than the other things. Fortunately, the prospects look quite good for a product soonish that provides this, not to the crazy extent that I would go if unleashed to make a kineticist-only book that wouldn't sell our usual numbers due to the limited audience but would make me happy, but still to an amount where I could actually feel the options opening up while writing them in my gut (I'm weird and sometimes design things cause me to feel things in my gut, like when a rule is super messed up and too strong or doesn't actually work, I get a mild physical pang while reading it, or when it's really opens up new stuff, it feels good).While I'm happy to hear you'll be working on this, can you PLEASE get N. Jolly to help write some of this? He's kind of redefined the class through 3pp products and a lot of what he's written has been amazing. I don't think I'm alone in believing that he'd be a huge asset in helping expand the first party options for this class.
I whole heartedly agree and think a PDF would be much better in this case than a physical book. It can be updated and expanded very easily without worrying about selling all the previous editions first(which, while I understand why that is Paizo's policy, is still bad. Please start putting errata out when it happens so we don't have our toys ripped away after growing to love them. Again.)
You can absolutely use Weapon Finesse with two-handed weapons. How do you think the elven curve blade came to be?
Now, if you're referring to the EA's Devastating Infusion, that's technically true because you'd have to manifest the one-handed version to two-hand the DI, which would preclude you from using Weapon Finesse.
Early on, you lose most of your infusions but you keep the one you get from Expanded Element (assuming you expand your primary which, why wouldn't you anyway) and you keep the ones from level 11+
This is incorrect.
An elemental annihilator can never gain utility wild talents.
Even if you would otherwise gain a utility talent, you simply can't because the EA is forbidden from ever getting one.
You can't 2H a light weapon but you can 2H a 1H weapon for any 2H bonuses like power attack, etc. Kinetic blade specifically calls out that you can create a 1H OR light weapon for use, which allows for STR and DEX focused builds.
Right, but that eliminates weapon finesse from the table, which means you'd have to move around the feats a bit.
Talking about feats, I believe you missed one feat in the 7-9 feat range Monkey, from my calculations you should have 4 at level 6, 7 at level 9, and 9 at level 11.
If you mean 2h eliminates weapon finesse, no it doesn't. Weapon finesse can absolutely be used with 2h weapons, look at the elven curved blade or the elven branched spear. Or any weapon with an effortless lace.