The above few posts come back around to what I have said before elsewhere on these boards, that instead of Paladins and Antipaladins as base classes, we should have a Holy Warrior prestige class (or set of classes) that varies by religion, sort of a cross between the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana Prestige Paladin and the Hellknight Kirthfinder's Prestige Paladin is like this (updated from D&D 3.5 for Pathfinder/Kirthfinder) and explicitly mentions the possibility of creating archetypes for different alignments. This makes more roleplaying sense anyway -- most religions aren't going to trst just any random worshipper off the street to become a Holy Warrior. Same deal for Inquisitor, by the way (actually even more so), even though I like the Inquisitor chassis mechanically (this is closer to what the Cleric should have been, although now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory).
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The above few posts come back around to what I have said before elsewhere on these boards, that instead of Paladins and Antipaladins as base classes, we should have a Holy Warrior prestige class (or set of classes) that varies by religion, sort of a cross between the D&D 3.5 Prestige Paladin and the Hellknight Kirthfinder's Prestige Paladin is like this (updated from D&D 3.5 for Pathfinder/Kirthfinder) and explicitly mentions the possibility of creating archetypes for different alignments. This makes more roleplaying sense anyway -- most religions aren't going to trst just any random worshipper off the street to become a Holy Warrior. Same deal for Inquisitor, by the way (actually even more so), even though I like the Inquisitor chassis mechanically (this is closer to what the Cleric should have been, although now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 territory).
Ick, I'd hate if paladins/antipaladins were replaced with standard "I get power from my god" classes.
^they aren't too far off from that right now in practice keep in mind that Clerics can be deity-independent as well, just not in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (although that said, it would be cool if the Pathfinder Campaign Setting gained an Ur-Priest that isn't the same as the Razmiran Priest). Also keep in mind that I listed Hellknight as a precursor to a Holy Warrior class -- Hellknights definitely do not hae to be tied to deities, even in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. (Although I have to admit that the Holy Warrior name does tend to make confusion in this case, but I couldn't think of a better name -- Prestige Paladin just doesn't sound fitting either.)
^they aren't too far off from that right now in practice keep in mind that Clerics can be deity-independent as well, just not in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (although that said, it would be cool if the Pathfinder Campaign Setting gained an Ur-Priest that isn't the same as the Razmiran Priest). Also keep in mind that I listed Hellknight as a precursor to a Holy Warrior class -- Hellknights definitely do not hae to be tied to deities, even in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting. (Although I have to admit that the Holy Warrior name does tend to make confusion in this case, but I couldn't think of a better name -- Prestige Paladin just doesn't sound fitting either.)
Except you specifically said "we should have a Holy Warrior prestige class (or set of classes) that varies by religion".
I really dislike the idea of removing paladin/antipaladin with religious classes. What your asking for is closer to warpriest or cleric than it is to paladin.
Except you specifically said "we should have a Holy Warrior prestige class (or set of classes) that varies by religion".
I really dislike the idea of removing paladin/antipaladin with religious classes. What your asking for is closer to warpriest or cleric than it is to paladin.
Change the name to Ideological Warrior, that varies by religion or philosophy. Problem solved . . . except that Ideological Warrior doesn't roll off the tongue very easily.
Zealot rolls off the tongue more easily, except that name is already taken by one of the Vigilante sub-classes, and besides, it would confuse fans of StarCraft . . . .
^Right on, for the most part. Alignment requirements like "must be within 1 step of patron deity or philosophy"(*) make sense; most of the others don't.
(*)Although just how close you have to be should depend upon the particular patron deity or philosophy rather than being hard-coded as within 1 step -- some patrons might demand extremely pure adherence, while others might allow a greater range of alignments as long as they saw their other interests being met in the process.
Half BAB, 9th-level divine caster
Why?
The "shapeshifter" class could be an archetype for the Druid, trading their spellcasting to boost the Wild Shape into different creatures.
Half BAB, 9th-level divine casterWhy?
Class features, of which the Cleric is rather short on. (Oracle steals a LOT of the thunder from this argument, though). Actually, I would like for the d8 divine classes to be 6/9 casters and d6 divine classes to be the 9/9 casters, but now we're getting into Pathfinder 2.0 or 3pp territory.
Here's a couple of common tropes and roles I'd like to see.
The Mechanic/Inventor - Pretty popular archetypal character. Some sort of hybrid between Alchemist and Occultist would fit really well.
The Tank - There are a total of 2 methods of drawing aggro, and both are feats. Pathfinder has plenty of classes that can stand in the middle of a crowd of foes and not get hit but most foes will just ignore you. Could be done with an archetype of Paladin or Cavalier perhaps.
The Tank - There are a total of 2 methods of drawing aggro, and both are feats. Pathfinder has plenty of classes that can stand in the middle of a crowd of foes and not get hit but most foes will just ignore you. Could be done with an archetype of Paladin or Cavalier perhaps.
The only way aggro could possibly make sense in PF is mindcontrol magic, and for some reason I don't think people would be pleased if the tank was a caster.
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Any others you would want to play but don't feel like the rules are in place to support it fully?
The Meta Mecha trope; you know the one, where some guy pilots a much larger suit of armor. And it doesn't have to be tech that drives it.
It can almost be done with the
Class Skills: A battle host adds Knowledge (local) (Int) and Knowledge (nobility) (Int) as class skills. This alters the occultist’s class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A battle host is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields). This replaces the occultist’s weapon and armor proficiency.
Panoply Bond (Su): At 1st level, a battle host forms a supernatural bond with a specific weapon, suit of armor, or shield. This selection is permanent and can never be changed. The bonded item is masterwork quality and the battle host begins play with it at no cost. The bonded item is immune to the broken condition for as long as the battle host lives. If a battle host dies and is restored to life, the bonded item is also restored if it was destroyed. Any magic powers associated with a battle host’s bonded item function only for the battle host; in the hands of anyone else it is only a masterwork item. The bonded item starts as an implement for any single school of magic at 1st level, and gains access to additional schools of magic at 2nd, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, granting the battle host access to base focus powers and resonant powers accordingly. The battle host’s bonded item serves as his implement component to cast occultist spells of all the schools that he knows. However, he must split his mental focus among the schools he knows for the purpose of determining resonant powers and using focus powers, even though he possesses only one physical item as an implement. This ability alters implements, mental focus, spellcasting, and implement mastery.
Battle Skill: At 2nd level, a battle host’s magic item skill ability applies only on checks with weapons, armor, and shields. This ability alters magic item skill.
Battle Reading: At 2nd level, a battle host can use object reading on only weapons, armor, and shields. This ability alters object reading.
Bonus Feats: At 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th levels, a battle host gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The battle host must meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. This ability replaces shift focus, magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles.
Spirit Warrior (Sp): At 5th level, a battle host can call forth the spirit of a dead warrior who once owned his bonded item. Calling the spirit is a standard action, and unlike the use of most spell-like abilities, it doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability functions as spiritual ally (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 246), using the battle host’s occultist level as his caster level and his Intelligence modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier to determine the spell’s effects. The battle host can summon a spirit warrior once per day at 5th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 occultist levels he possesses beyond 5th. This ability replaces aura sight.
Heroic Splendor (Su): At 6th level, a battle host can draw power from his bonded item to imbue himself with superhuman strength, agility, or resilience. As a swift action, a battle host can grant himself a +4 insight bonus to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution for 1 minute. The battle host can use this ability once per day at 6th level, plus one additional time per day for every 4 occultist levels he possesses beyond 6th. If he activates heroic splendor again before the duration expires, the new use of heroic splendor replaces the old use. This ability replaces outside contact.
The Tank - There are a total of 2 methods of drawing aggro, and both are feats. Pathfinder has plenty of classes that can stand in the middle of a crowd of foes and not get hit but most foes will just ignore you. Could be done with an archetype of Paladin or Cavalier perhaps.The only way aggro could possibly make sense in PF is mindcontrol magic, and for some reason I don't think people would be pleased if the tank was a caster.
Antagonize and Call-Out exist as feats that literally any class can take at level 1. If it's fair game for a feat it's fair game for a class feature.
One of the common ways to "tank" is to make yourself appear to be an easy target - don't wear armor, act recklessly, etc. Monks can do this but it's largely reliant on the enemy being intelligent enough to prioritize and many creatures don't do this. I remember playing a 4e 1-shot at a convention a few years back where I had an ability that gave an enemy a +4 to attacks against me but for each attack they'd provoke an AoO from one of my allies - that was an interesting mechanic that didn't interfere with the boundaries of "making sense".
The only way aggro could possibly make sense in PF is mindcontrol magic, and for some reason I don't think people would be pleased if the tank was a caster.
Another option for a tanking class is something like an Intercept, where you move between an ally and an enemy as an immediate action. So, basically just an improved version of the Intercept Charge feat.
And there are lots of mundane mind control effects in pathfinder. Intimidate says "Hi!".
Best way to tank is carrying enough cans of whoop-ass that the enemy needs to take you out.
Best way to tank is carrying enough cans of whoop-ass that the enemy needs to take you out.
That concept doesn't work. A guy focusing on defense won't/shouldn't have the offense of of a guy focusing on offense. And this still wouldn't do anything to stop people from going after your healer. What's the point of attacking the "hitting guy", when all of the damage keeps getting healed back by the "healing guy".
Focusing on defense means you are as relevant as a rock on the battlemat. And if you want to prevent people going after your healer, either make sure they can't see him, make sure they can't because the way is blocked, or mind control the enemies. Killing the healer is sort of the kind of tactical option you would need mind control to remove.
Focusing on defense means you are as relevant as a rock on the battlemat.
Which is why a tanking class is wanted/desired.
And if you want to prevent people going after your healer, either make sure they can't see him, make sure they can't because the way is blocked, or mind control the enemies. Killing the healer is sort of the kind of tactical option you would need mind control to remove.
But as I said, mundane mind control is already a thing in Pathfinder. It's called Intimidate. Taunt wouldn't be so different from Intimidate.
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The only way aggro could possibly make sense in PF is mindcontrol magic, and for some reason I don't think people would be pleased if the tank was a caster.Another option for a tanking class is something like an Intercept, where you move between an ally and an enemy as an immediate action. So, basically just an improved version of the Intercept Charge feat.
A feat line which is the opposite of Mobility might work. You get large boosts to your CMD vs Acrobatics and boosts to attacks on AOOs & readied actions. It'd work decently in combo with step-up.
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Best way to tank is carrying enough cans of whoop-ass that the enemy needs to take you out.
Isn't this basically how tanks work in pretty much all MOBAs. Isn't it basically how tanks work almost everywhere, including in real life.
Very few tanky characters in MOBAs can actually force another player to attack them. The way they "tank" is by giving the opposition a choice. The opposition either sits there wailing on the tank while the squishy in the back nukes them, or they try to bypass the tank to hit the squishy and therefore have to endure a pounding from the tank in the meanwhile. It's more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Rather like real life, where when you are up against supported armor you have pretty much 3 options that don't involve outside support - hiding while the enemy infantry have free reign to maneuver, revealing yourself to fire on them but opening yourself up to The Right Fist of God, as played by a 120mm Gun, or you try to move into position to eliminate the tank but open yourself up to the supporting infantry. Again, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Last time I checked, main battle tanks don't need to have speakers playing death metal insulting the prophet Mohammad in order to create problems for the enemy. They create problems for the enemy by being seventy tons of grinding metal death. Which is kinda like what an Armored Hulk Barbarian with CaGM and Dazing Assault looks like. What a coincidence.
Is there any game where "tanking" involves having to use mechanics to force aggro onto the tank other than a few RPGs where the mechanics or the stupid AI let you get away with it, and MMOs in PVE, where the opposition has the intelligence of a basic AI script. I literally can't think of another example.
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Very few tanky characters in MOBAs can actually force another player to attack them. The way they "tank" is by giving the opposition a choice. The opposition either sits there wailing on the tank while the squishy in the back nukes them, or they try to bypass the tank to hit the squishy and therefore have to endure a pounding from the tank in the meanwhile. It's more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
True - but that doesn't work well in Pathfinder for a few reasons.
1. Ranges - the ranges in MOBAs are much shorter, so the ranged characters either have to hit the tanky characters, or they're forced to move up into range of both the opposing ranged & the tanks.
Ranges in Pathfinder are extreme in comparison to movement speed.
2. Collisions - tanky characters can physically put themselves in the way of squishies to protect them.
This could be done in Pathfinder with immediate actions, and a feat to do so would probably be one of the better methods of tanking. However, that would only work vs. melee opponents. Perhaps an immediate action to move in their way, and they can choose to change their target to the tank or to try to overrun. But that still only helps tank vs melee.
3. Abilities - while only a few MOBA tanks actually have a taunt (though the very tankiest often do) - they have other abilities which make them hard to ignore beyond pure damage. Some are CCs, or buffing your buddies.
This can be done in Pathfinder, but not really with martials. That's the reason why bards can actually make very good tanks. Their own damage can be mediocre, because they're buffing all of their buddies to do more, so it's still of benefit to put them down. Plus - their casting makes opponents (and PFS GMs) assume that they're squishy until they wiff a couple times.
I will say - along the same lines of tricking foes into attacking the tank, my monk wears a cheesy wizard's hat & robes with stars & moons on them. He also likes to open battles with Scorching Ray, especially against intelligent foes.
^Mages in Mage: The Ascension would disagree with you (while the Technocrats would agree with you, but then swear a blue moon as their spaceship suffers a Paradox Breakdown and leaves them stranded on Golarion).
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I wish Pathfinder had a Summoner archetype that supported Eidolons of Intelligence >7 (keeping in mind that currently you can only boost this very slightly and slowly). This would be very useful for a Summoner Switch, in which you start out playing the Summoner, and then after the Summoner dies, the Eidolon becomes Unfettered, and becomes your new character. Would be a thematically fitting way of getting an Outsider character into the campaign.
I'd really like to see a tactician-based class that isn't just about handing out teamwork feats. The RPG 13th Age does something really interesting with it, where the Bard class has some battle cries, transforming it from the stereotypical wimpy balladeer into a battlefield commander. I don't really like how they trigger on dice rolls, rather than when actually needed, but still. An overview:
Whenever a Bard rolls a melee attack, when the d20 (not the total number, but the actual die) falls on a certain thing (odd, even, certain threshold such as 11+), you can trigger a battlecry, such as making an ally close in on (or disengage from) an opponent, healing an ally, giving someone extra AC, extra saving throw, and so on. Interestingly, Half-Elves get the racial power to lower the result of their d20 by one, making them ideal Bards, because they can actually influence when their cries trigger.
I really liked the crusader from the tomb of battle.
In concept I guess the samurai was suppose to fill the niche, but it just doesn't do it right for me.
^One idea I have been thinking of for this is a Story feat -- here's a prototype, although I will admit up front that "Donkey" from Shrek is going to need something different:
Prerequisite: Animal Companion, Cohort, Eidolon, or other companion; master must have another Story feat and has been killed, permanently incapacitated, or otherwise lost; also see Special.
Benefit: You gain the benefits of your former master's Story feat.
Goal: You take on your master's Goal.
Completion Benefit: You gain the Completion Benefit of your master's Story feat. In addition, any special conditions that were needed to qualify for this feat (see Special) become permanent, if they were not already.
Special: Any companion that would naturally have an Intelligence less than 3 requires becoming Awakened (as done by the spell Awaken). Eidolon requires Resilient Eidolon.
Archivist...
INT and WIS based D6 divine caster
Scrolls and forbidden knowledge...
I really like the idea about knowing the weaknesses of certain monsters and being able to come up with buffs to exploit them
One of my favorite 3rd party archetypes is the Inspiring Commander from Rite publishing. It trades out the mount and banner abilities for bardic inspiration and improved aid another.
Archivist...
INT and WIS based D6 divine caster
Scrolls and forbidden knowledge...
I really like the idea about knowing the weaknesses of certain monsters and being able to come up with buffs to exploit them
If you drop the part about being an INT and WIS based d6 divine caster, Archivist Bard seems like it could work for this as long as you keep UMD maxed and DON'T skimp on (let alone dump) Intelligence. It gets even better if your party doesn't have another Trapfinding character or substitute thereof (you should also max Disable Device), and the Magic Lore ability not only enables this but helps with the "Scrolls and Forbidden Knowledge" part.
An Class/Archetype that makes thrown daggers a viable combat form. Always wanted to make Willie Garvin, but never got it to work.
Flying Blade Swashbuckler takes a semi-respectable (but somewhat hampered) stab at this.
Speaking of Swashbuckler archetypes, not exactly a trope, but I wish we had an Elven Swashbuckler archetype to take advantage of all those finessable weapons (including two-handed ones) that Elves get proficiency with or treat as Martial even when normally Exotic, including swaps made by choosing alternate racial traits (for instance, if you select Spirit of the Waters to replace the normal Elven Weapon Familiarity, you get to use Swashbuckler Finesse with the Trident and Longspear instead of the Longsword, Elven Curve Blade. And Elven Branched Spear, and holding a Net in your off hand does not count as occupying your off hand for the purpose of feats such as Slashing Grace that require a free hand, as long as you do not need to actually hold something else with that hand). Of course, then assuming we really want the kind of Dex-to-Damage feats that we have gotten half-baked, we also need a feat that lets you do Dex-to-Damage with these weapons (even when two-handed), although like I said, the way Dex-to-Damage has been done is half-baked as it is.