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Rogue is pretty on point, the blast does the same damage as sneak attack and can't be used for irretives unless shenanigans are involved (conductive ammo), so it's dps is much lower
Rogues don't get SA on every round by far, and Kineticists have Empower and Composites to simulate the effect of iterative attacks on DPR.
I would like to see some builds at low,mid,high level to see the claim of tier 2? So far I would put them about equal with rogue.Rogue is pretty on point, the blast does the same damage as sneak attack and can't be used for irretives unless shenanigans are involved (conductive ammo), so it's dps is much lower, it's skill points are lower as are it's class skills, and it has equivalent BaB and Saves. Granted it has some better buffs, is more MAD (which is kinda nullified by Burn) and slightly better utility, but not by a whole lot (rogue with umd and some arcane talents is probably better).
Rogues need enemies to lose dexterity modifier to defense or need a flank buddy saving their butts.
Sneak attack isn't multiplied on a hit. Kinetic blast is.
If gonna compare a rogue to a kineticist, let's be fair and compare a melee rogue to a melee kineticist instead of melee rogue to ranged kineticist. Why is ranged rogue not on there? Because who has heard of a consistent ranged sneak attack without "shenanigans"? Melee kineticist with kinetic blade can use iteratives and haste and be as effective as a rogue in combat. TWF rogue? Sure. If you wanna do the feat investment and wait for the BAB to qualify but I've heard just as much complaints about it being a trap option as I heard of that being a standard one (Unchained rogue fixes that quite a bit). But a rogue isn't having the potential to be burning/blinding/tripping/other maneuver/deafening/other substance infusions/etc with each hit.
Skills? Sure. I guess kineticists are as jealous of rogue's skills as a spellcaster is:
Appraise - Awkward.
Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive - If a kineticist was inclined to a trait is all that's needed. But sure, they're not by default as sociable.
Climb, Fly, Swim, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand - Each one is granted by an element focus. Those element focus either provides a big benefit or can replace the need altogether with utility talents, or not really provide a benefit for it (escape artist).
Craft - Got that.
Disable Device - Not really focused on traps or lockpicking. Blast!
Disguise - Sure kineticist don't has that. It's used so often it's almost a crime.
Intimidate, Perception, Profession, Stealth, Use Magic Device - They got that.
Perform - Perform would actually be pretty cool to have with kinetic talents.
Kineticist saves are WAY better than the rogue's. Good Fort and Reflex when the class encourages good Constitution and Dexterity.
Kineticist can be just as flexible with UMD as a rogue. Difference? Kineticist typically has more money than a rogue to buy wands because they didn't have to invest in a magic weapon.
I thought aether was pretty cool with the wall of force bubble you can create. Enlarge yourself and you can create some major barriers for something to overcome or completely block a small hallway with a wall of force
Hmm... is an object attended when in physical contact or does it need to be on my person so to speak?
I am arguing that mage hand's "unattended object" only cares about the initial cast. Even if the object becomes attended after the cast, the spell doesn't end. Indeed, the object obviously is "attended" once your mage hand is on it, so clearly being attended does not stop the spell.
This is like how haste targets a number of people who can't be more than 30 feet from each other. The haste doesn't break if the targets get further than that from each other after casting.
I'm currently playing a Aether Kineticist in PFS, and I do my "flight" a bit differently then a lot of people: I grab an object that weighs 1-2 hundred pounds and then climb atop of it and ride with it as it moves. I even will let the slower people climb on as well, as long as they don't weigh too much. TK haul is amazing.
I'm currently playing a Aether Kineticist in PFS, and I do my "flight" a bit differently then a lot of people: I grab an object that weighs 1-2 hundred pounds and then climb atop of it and ride with it as it moves. I even will let the slower people climb on as well, as long as they don't weigh too much. TK haul is amazing.
If your characters name... Mercenary Tao?
I think many of us TKs love the idea of the Aether Scooter. I'm just worried it may get erratumed or FAQed out of working.
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I could see it going either way... On one hand you have a lot of source fiction like Wheel of Time where you can't lift yourself with normal TK. On the other hand, you have this.
I'd hope you could use Telekinetic Haul to move a platform or chair with you on it. However, it makes the Self TK line somewhat wasted. You would still need concentration though, which makes it less useful for combat.
Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).
The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.
I'd hope you could use Telekinetic Haul to move a platform or chair with you on it. However, it makes the Self TK line somewhat wasted. You would still need concentration though, which makes it less useful for combat.
It's almost useless for combat. It's a standard action to concentrate and a move action to move. And if you cast any other spells while concentrating, then the concentration fails and the spell ends. Now it is questionable if SLAs count as spells for this purpose.
There is some question of how the TK Haul works if you spend a burn point, as the duration is changed in some vague way other than just concentration. But then it's simply a more burn expensive alternate to Self TK.
It may not be Golarion or Pathfinder but TK Haul being used to move people around is canon and if Paizo publishes a FAQ or Errata to say otherwise... well, they're wrong and absolutely everyone is required to tell them they are wrong and ignore their false changes.
Bonus points, the above includes a standard action casting, plus concentration to maintain it. I mean, it's almost like the rules for TK Haul was based around the above.
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You'd need Extended Range and Extreme Range to make the scooter as fast as a normal person. It's a neat idea, though; I don't think it should be illegal.
As for "party invisibility", I always read TK Invis as self-only, but it's true that the text doesn't specify it. I expect that to be errata'd. Even self-only, it's a strong argument in favor of Telekinesis, though.
You'd need Extended Range and Extreme Range to make the scooter as fast as a normal person.
Yeah, that's why we call it scooter instead of speeder. The only thing it's really good at is getting past environmental obstacles. And being fun. It's really good at being fun.
Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).
The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.
Fire resistance is also more common than other resistances.
Fire has the worst defense. It's the only one that actually doesn't defend you, just discourages some people from attacking you. Since it only affects natural weapons and unarmed, it's pretty limited.
They do get the best AoE's, but their utilities are worse than most. They get the same semi-fly as Aether, but not the other cool utilities.
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Fire has the worst defense. It's the only one that actually doesn't defend you, just discourages some people from attacking you. Since it only affects natural weapons and unarmed, it's pretty limited.
It affects weapons, but it usually won't overcome hardness. but if you have a wooden weapon, your GM may rule that fire overcomes that hardness. If someone destroys their wood-hafted weapon by attacking you, they are hosed for the rest of the encounter.
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It affects weapons, but it usually won't overcome hardness. but if you have a wooden weapon, your GM may rule that fire overcomes that hardness. If someone destroys their wood-hafted weapon by attacking you, they are hosed for the rest of the encounter.
Fire has the worst defense. It's the only one that actually doesn't defend you, just discourages some people from attacking you. Since it only affects natural weapons and unarmed, it's pretty limited.
Yeah, I was disappointed the fire defense got weakened quite a bit from the playtest version.
They do get the best AoE'sCheck out Many Throw...
Many throw only does basic blast damage, requires attack throws, and requires level 16(!).
Meanwhile, a pyrokineticist can do a Blue Flame Blast Eruption to do composite blast damage in a 10 ft radius, or Blue Flame Explosion for a 20 foot radius for still full composite blast damage. Both at earlier levels, and if the enemies make their save then oh well, the pyro still did almost as much damage as a many throw.
Edit: I know pyrokineticists have issues with fire immunity, but they sure do a lot more damage and get much better AOEs if they focus just on their element.
They do get the best AoE'sCheck out Many Throw...Many throw only does basic blast damage, requires attack throws, and requires level 16(!).
Meanwhile, a pyrokineticist can do a Blue Flame Blast Eruption to do composite blast damage in a 10 ft radius, or Blue Flame Explosion for a 20 foot radius for still full composite blast damage. Both at earlier levels, and if the enemies make their save then oh well, the pyro still did almost as much damage as a many throw.
Edit: I know pyrokineticists have issues with fire immunity, but they sure do a lot more damage and get much better AOEs if they focus just on their element.
Still a very nice AOE option for Aetheric kineticists, as it means I get all my ranged attack boosts and benefit from party buffs like Bardic Music. It also ignores Evasion, which can be a thing. Oh, and I can crit.
I'm not saying that Fire doesn't get nice blasts, but the other elements do generally get neat options.
Yea, the lack of bardic song and other buffs on the AOEs is annoying. Luckily, I think the Pyrokineticist can keep up a bit by using Fires Fury to get a little extra damage. It does mean less utility though XD
Despite the much higher miss chance, I think having a physical blast at first with your expanded element giving you an energy blast you can composite with is probably the better option. Yes, you're dealing with DR and higher AC, but you won't be resisted or outright negated in most encounters. Physical blasts also count as magic for overcoming DR, which is what you should be facing for the first couple levels if you encounter DR at all.
I prefer Aether for utility or Earth for Earth Glide. After that, Fire or Ice for the energy blast options. At level 15 is go with Air for the long-range bombardment abilities; "nuke it from orbit" and all.
Yeah, I was disappointed the fire defense got weakened quite a bit from the playtest version.It affects weapons, but it usually won't overcome hardness. but if you have a wooden weapon, your GM may rule that fire overcomes that hardness. If someone destroys their wood-hafted weapon by attacking you, they are hosed for the rest of the encounter.
Fire has the worst defense. It's the only one that actually doesn't defend you, just discourages some people from attacking you. Since it only affects natural weapons and unarmed, it's pretty limited.
One of my ideas for a homebrewed talent for the pyrokineticist is a talent that amplifies his defense so it applies the damage to objects before it hits him. This would, at higher levels, allow him to destroy projectiles fired at him before they even hit. I have this mental picture of a Pyrokineticist standing in a field, waves of heat rolling off of him as an army tries to shoot him from a distance, only to see all of their arrows reduced to ash before they can do anything.
Would be glorious.
Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).
The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.
Resistance/hardness/immunity sucks in the low levels. Those aren't just for fire, loads of the energy blasts would be useless in lots of situations, but I suppose fire gets the shaft more often than most. Playing PFS with my pyro I went through a variety of encounters, and I hated dealing with robots, outsiders with immunity, protection from energy or resist energy spells, golems would theoretically be bad (haven't encountered one yet), and underwater situations. Hardness or resist fire 10 means a pyro at levels 1 or 2 can't contribute unless he's very flexible on his options. Trial By Machines was probably the worst at low levels: robots and undead with fire immunity.
Fan of flames would be pretty sweet. Never got a chance to use it. I'm still debating with my updated level 7 pyro to pick up Expanded Element (fire) in order to get Eruption now rather than later and tough out the fire immune situations. I figure as long as I don't fight nothing but devils or something, I can contribute somehow. Of course, getting air blast and plasma blast would make my life easier, but probably less fun than spamming eruption all the time. DECISIONS!
Just curious, why do people think that Fire is a bad element? It seems to have the highest damage potential (for touch attacks and AOE), the easiest AOE access, and the ability to blind even fire immune enemies on a hit at level 9 (or 8 if you retrain).
The only issue is that it has problems with fire immunity, but that is kind of a campaign specific thing. I have definately seen campaigns where fire immunity was not common.
Resistance/hardness/immunity sucks in the low levels. Those aren't just for fire, loads of the energy blasts would be useless in lots of situations, but I suppose fire gets the shaft more often than most. Playing PFS with my pyro I went through a variety of encounters, and I hated dealing with robots, outsiders with immunity, protection from energy or resist energy spells, golems would theoretically be bad (haven't encountered one yet), and underwater situations. Hardness or resist fire 10 means a pyro at levels 1 or 2 can't contribute unless he's very flexible on his options. Trial By Machines was probably the worst at low levels: robots and undead with fire immunity.
Fan of flames would be pretty sweet. Never got a chance to use it. I'm still debating with my updated level 7 pyro to pick up Expanded Element (fire) in order to get Eruption now rather than later and tough out the fire immune situations. I figure as long as I don't fight nothing but devils or something, I can contribute somehow. Of course, getting air blast and plasma blast would make my life easier, but probably less fun than spamming eruption all the time. DECISIONS!
Yea, admittedly I am lucky that the game that I am making a Pyrokineticist for is going to start at level 5... so I am skipping all the difficult levels and starting right with some anti-fire resistance abilities.
I'm going to post this here since it isn't worth creating a thread by itself.
Can you apply poison to a kinetic blade? It states, "You create a nonreach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter."
While a kinetic blade made of rock/earth/metal for a geokineticist could hold poison, a blade made of ice for a hydrokineticist could hold poison, and a charged physical item for a telekineticist could hold poison, what about an aerokineticist or pyrokineticist? Can you apply poison to pure flame or condensed air or lightning? The rules would have to allow it for consistency, but it seems odd. Like trying to apply poison to a lightsaber.
Not sure what RAW is ... what you've outlined seems "good enough".
I'd say no poisons to energy kinetic blade/whip, and sure to physical ones (I'm gonna forget imagining applying it to air blades). But it's heavily dependent on the action used to apply the poison.
The blade/whip manifests when you make an attack, charge, or a full-attack action, so you'd need a free/swift action to apply the poison between the attacks if it's gonna do any good.
The blade is gone at the end of the kineticist's turn. If the attacks missed and poison is still on, it'll be wasted when the blade is gone. The whip sticks around after the attacks until the beginning of next turn, so if poison is applied after the attacks it could still be useful for potential AoOs.
I don't think Telekinetic blade/whip probably would benefit from a poison application even if the object held had poison applied earlier. The held object is wrapped in aether and only deals the blast damage and none of the object's special effect or bonuses.
I'm interested in everyone else's thought on Earth. I feel the defense is very solid, its bypassing metals and blunt / slash / pierce are cool, a little bit of entangling and knocking over isn't too bad and obviously earth glide is great, but it seems to lack in good earlier utility. What does an early Earth build look like? Just extended range and building towards earth glide?
Resistance/hardness/immunity sucks in the low levels. Those aren't just for fire, loads of the energy blasts would be useless in lots of situations, but I suppose fire gets the shaft more often than most. Playing PFS with my pyro I went through a variety of encounters, and I hated dealing with robots, outsiders with immunity, protection from energy or resist energy spells, golems would theoretically be bad (haven't encountered one yet), and underwater situations. Hardness or resist fire 10 means a pyro at levels 1 or 2 can't contribute unless he's very flexible on his options. Trial By Machines was probably the worst at low levels: robots and undead with fire immunity.
Hardness and immunity will be an issue regardless, but fire resistance 10 can be relatively easily dealt with by a pyrokineticist that takes Burning Infusion at 1st or 3rd and Searing Flame at 4th. Note that the fire resistance is reduced regardless of if the target takes damage from the 1d6 of being on fire or not. Since Burning Infusion only costs one burn point, you can use it on any round you don't move (using Gather Power) without adding to your burn total.
Levels 1-3 are still rough (hope you bought a few javelins or other something).
Resistance/hardness/immunity sucks in the low levels. Those aren't just for fire, loads of the energy blasts would be useless in lots of situations, but I suppose fire gets the shaft more often than most. Playing PFS with my pyro I went through a variety of encounters, and I hated dealing with robots, outsiders with immunity, protection from energy or resist energy spells, golems would theoretically be bad (haven't encountered one yet), and underwater situations. Hardness or resist fire 10 means a pyro at levels 1 or 2 can't contribute unless he's very flexible on his options. Trial By Machines was probably the worst at low levels: robots and undead with fire immunity.Hardness and immunity will be an issue regardless, but fire resistance 10 can be relatively easily dealt with by a pyrokineticist that takes Burning Infusion at 1st or 3rd and Searing Flame at 4th. Note that the fire resistance is reduced regardless of if the target takes damage from the 1d6 of being on fire or not. Since Burning Infusion only costs one burn point, you can use it on any round you don't move (using Gather Power) without adding to your burn total.
Yea that's why I said levels 1-2 suck when dealing with resistances. Not a lot of options to deal with resistances with level 1 infusions and utility. By the time searing flame is available (for fire only), fire's fury has a purpose by then and I consider it more useful overall because it applies to every blast and targets.
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I'm interested in everyone else's thought on Earth. I feel the defense is very solid, its bypassing metals and blunt / slash / pierce are cool, a little bit of entangling and knocking over isn't too bad and obviously earth glide is great, but it seems to lack in good earlier utility. What does an early Earth build look like? Just extended range and building towards earth glide?
I consider Earth the most solid starting element. Packs a punch, awesome defense, and Entangling/Bowling are awesome (not just "not too bad"). You can bypass most DR you'll find at early levels, and I don't expect accuracy to be a problem (you don't take all the minuses that archers do to keep up with you). Flavor's cool too, especially for Dwarves and Gnomes. When you hit 7th, enjoy the most damaging AoE of them all, Impale.
Later, pick up an energy of your choice or go full metal, it's all good.
Mark Seifter and I talked about this thread extensively at GenCon, and we both agreed that people tend to find the element(s) that best exemplify their preferred play style to be the best element. People who like blasting adore fire, people who favor mobility pick air, people who are defensive pick earth, people who value control pick water, and people who value tricky tactics pick aether.
Myself? I fell in love with aether almost immediately. At will force attacks for incorporeals? Low-level telekinesis? Ranged legerdemain? DISENTIGRATE? Yes, give me this element, PLEASE! I'm picking air at 7th and expanding aether at later levels because I want the ability to shoot beams of electricity and haste my allies.
So, Alex, should we start expecting builds for Aang, Korra and all of their friends on Guidance?