I'm thinking it's likely air. Early on, it allows you to have a physical attack, an energy attack, great range and flight. It's pretty hard to beat a flying sniper hundreds of feet away who can snake attacks past your cover and deflect your ranged retaliation away from himself.
Where does water get energy attacks? All the basic blasts I looked at appeared to be physical. Even some of the later stuff that added energy damage, still required an attack roll as opposed to a touch attack roll.
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Where does water get energy attacks? All the basic blasts I looked at appeared to be physical. Even some of the later stuff that added energy damage, still required an attack roll as opposed to a touch attack roll.
I based my statement off the playtest document, but isn't cold blast part of water element in the final version?
Where does water get energy attacks? All the basic blasts I looked at appeared to be physical. Even some of the later stuff that added energy damage, still required an attack roll as opposed to a touch attack roll.I based my statement off the playtest document, but isn't cold blast part of water element in the final version?
My mistake. I must have been thinking of some of the later ice powers, many of which aren't touch attacks.
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heart
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Leeloo...
Seriously, it all depends on what your criteria are.
Aether can generate force effects, telekinetically control objects (even animate them with aether puppet), heal, and deflect spells.
Air has a good mix of mobility, defenses against arrows/etc., and a mix of energy and physical attacks.
Earth has a bunch of different physical attacks (including the potential ability to bypass DR with rare-metal infusion), good defenses, and earth glide (walk through walls, floors).
Fire has some good attacks, decent mobility (flame jet), the ability to reduce fire resistance (searing flame), and even ignore spell resistance (pure-flame infusion).
Water has probably the best battlefield control options, a mix of energy and physical attacks, good defenses, and can heal.
How does blood fit in to things? Is it pretty much just a water kineticist with a few extra shinies?
Looking forward to seeing some build threads tomorrow.
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It is a good design when you don't know what to pick.
Totally agree! I've been brainstorming on Kineticists a lot recently, and I just can't decide... great stuff. All elements are all good in their own way (except maybe Tele...?).
Earth: Most powerful physical attack (Impale), great defense (DR), Earthglide at later levels... born for melee.
Fire: Most powerful energy attacks. Note how almost all AoE infusions are either fire-only, or do half damage except for fire...? You even get an AoE at 1st level! By far the "blastiest" element, balanced by the least useful defense. Makes sense, I guess.
Air: Unlimited flight at 6th and powerful defense against ranged attacks is a killer combo. Not much versatility beyond that, but man, unlimited flight is awesome. I had a beastmorph vivi once and loved having a Fly speed.
Water: Seems like a do-it-all element. Great defense, and Slick is an awesome non-blast alternative at early to mid levels. Entangling Infusion sounds like a pretty useful debuff, rivaling Earth's Bowling Infusion (perhaps even more useful, since it can force some enemies to waste Standard actions?). Sounds like fun to play.
Personally, I think I'm gonna go for an Earth/Cold or Cold/Earth tank with a focus on melee for my first Kineticist. Earth/Fire or Earth/Electricity might also work well.
I really like Aether thematically, but Air keeps tempting me with its sweet mobility.
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From what I've been reading in the other threads, it seems like none of the elements are all that powerful if an NPC class with a bow can out-damage a focused blaster class.
That's mostly hyperbole regarding NPCs and rogues and low level kineticists with little regards to the kineticist's utility powers. A kineticist doesn't do as great as a dedicated archer, but not many classes do. But you look over the utility powers, think of the kind of character you wanna play, and damage isn't gonna be a big a deal in your mind.
Damage wise, kineticists do ok. Players that play beyond one-shots and for several levels haven't ever had to complain too much about the damage and options available to it.
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From what I've been reading in the other threads, it seems like none of the elements are all that powerful if an NPC class with a bow can out-damage a focused blaster class.
Outside of Eldritch/Arcane/Inquisitor Archers, most of these archer characters are also one-trick ponies that can't do anything else other than deal damage. The Kineticist can do more than just deal damage, however. Hydrokineticists, for example, can get some really good battlefield control going by using abilities like Slick or Kinetic Cover to impede movement.
Many of the elements have impressive mobility options, flight, earth glide, pseuod-teleportation etc, means the Kineticist can make a good scout. With a focus on Con, she's a scout that isn't likely to die in a single blow either, and she can reasonably handle herself with her mobility, blasts, and defensive options.
I mean, look at the Hydrokineticist being able to have Water Manipulator by level 7. This lets the Hydrokineticist, create a 70x70 foot square and allows her to raise, or lower, a body of water by as much as 14 feet. Stop and think about what a 14 foot drop in a body of water would actually look like. You could easily trap whole ships in there and pin them down.
There's a lot more than simply blasting that a Kineticist can do, which is, more often than not, more than most archers can say.
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There's a lot more than simply blasting that a Kineticist can do, which is, more often than not, more than most archers can say.
In fact, Kineticists can even do those interesting things while blasting. They can hit multiple targets in lines (Impale, Torrent), bursts (Eruption, Explosion), cones (Fan of Flames), and even arbitrary zig-zag paths (Chain), doing their full-attack damage to each target (depending on the element used). Some of these do half damage on a save, whereas archery misses are just misses. Pyros can even to AoE at 1st level (Fan of Flames).
Or how about tripping, entangling and immobilizing, staggering, or dispelling your target, all while doing your full damage to them? At later levels, you can even afford to combine that with AoE blast shapes.
Have you ever found Wall of Fire useful for battlefield control and for softening up advancing enemies? Kineticists can do that all day long, and with higher damage.
Even for a ranged striker, full attacks cannot be taken for granted. There's only so much an archer can do with a single arrow. Meanwhile, an 11th-level Standard-action kinetic blast still does on the order of 40 damage (30 for an energy blast, which hits Touch AC) and can trip, entangle, immobilize, stagger, or just hit half a dozen enemies at once.
Finally, when a Kineticist gets caught in melee, her DPR increases, possibly significantly so.
And did we mention that our Kineticist flies at will, earthglides through walls, rides along with her blasts into the enemy back lines, has something like Fire Shield up all day, and/or eats physical attacks like a golem?
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There's a lot more than simply blasting that a Kineticist can do, which is, more often than not, more than most archers can say.In fact, Kineticists can even do those interesting things while blasting. They can hit multiple targets in lines (Impale, Torrent), bursts (Eruption, Explosion), cones (Fan of Flames), and even arbitrary zig-zag paths (Chain), doing their full-attack damage to each target (depending on the element used). Some of these do half damage on a save, whereas archery misses are just misses. Pyros can even to AoE at 1st level (Fan of Flames).
Or how about tripping, entangling and immobilizing, staggering, or dispelling your target, all while doing your full damage to them? At later levels, you can even afford to combine that with AoE blast shapes.
Have you ever found Wall of Fire useful for battlefield control and for softening up advancing enemies? Kineticists can do that all day long, and with higher damage.
Even for a ranged striker, full attacks cannot be taken for granted. There's only so much an archer can do with a single arrow. Meanwhile, an 11th-level Standard-action kinetic blast still does on the order of 40 damage (30 for an energy blast, which hits Touch AC) and can trip, entangle, immobilize, stagger, or just hit half a dozen enemies at once.
Finally, when a Kineticist gets caught in melee, her DPR increases, possibly significantly so.
And did we mention that our Kineticist flies at will, earthglides through walls, rides along with her blasts into the enemy back lines, has something like Fire Shield up all day, and/or eats physical attacks like a golem?
This is a GREAT post, though it makes me think of Schrodinger's Wizard. Kineticists can do quite a lot, but they still can't do everything.
I think it is also worth noting that kineticists can do tons of burst damage at high levels, getting as many as four high powered blasts each round with just one class ability (metakinesis). For those who care more about rider effects than damage, they can combine this with Flurry of Blasts to unleash as many as TWENTY blasts in a single round!
Imagine the battlefield control possibilities! Twenty enemies just caught fire, or were knocked prone, or are entangled, or any number of nasty riders. Oh, and unlike many area spells, there is no chance whatsoever of you accidentally hitting your allies!
Kineticists have a lot going for them once you get past thinking about how they aren't another class. They're also complicated and have a lot of options when building, but are pretty simple in practice, so I think they lend themselves well to newer players since they tend to be more "Timmy" (to use an MTG term), but a Fighter or a Barbarian doesn't teach you a whole lot about options in the game. A Kineticist, though, gives that nice visceral "I INCINERATE IT!!!!" feeling while also showing how move actions, full-round actions, and things like nonlethal damage, tripping, entangling, cover, etc. work in the same package. Since I only DM I see these things from that standpoint, and I teach a lot of new players, so this is a great option.
On topic, I really like what Earth is doing. Some accuracy problems early on and can't get energy for a while, but free DR like an Invulnerable Rager is sweet and makes up for a good portion of the day's Burn, and Earth gets some great composite blasts. Metal is nice, since overcoming DR/adamantine can be a big deal, and lava blasts are sweeeeeet. I also think it thematically lends itself really well to the melee options, and thinking of an Ascetic that just throws down with rock fists is cool.
You get the same Flight from Fire as well. In fact, one refers to the other for mechanics.
Air: Unlimited flight at 6th and powerful defense against ranged attacks is a killer combo. Not much versatility beyond that, but man, unlimited flight is awesome. I had a beastmorph vivi once and loved having a Fly speed.
Not technically the same flight nor is it a fly speed. Flame Jet allows you to move in a straight line 60 ft (or 30 ft upwards) as a standard action (move action with Greater Flame Jet) and doesn't reference Fly. The one advantage it has over Fly is that it doesn't get slowed down by encumbrance. Self Telekinesis works the same way and references Flame Jet.
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You get the same Flight from Fire as well. In fact, one refers to the other for mechanics.
Air: Unlimited flight at 6th and powerful defense against ranged attacks is a killer combo. Not much versatility beyond that, but man, unlimited flight is awesome. I had a beastmorph vivi once and loved having a Fly speed.
No, you don't. At 6th level Fire has Flame Jet. Flame jet only allows you to move in a 60' line with upward movement costing double as a standard action. If you end your turn mid air, you fall. It's not until 10th level that you gain Greater Flame Jet to turn it into a move action and allow hovering.
Air has Wings of Air at 6th level, where you are constantly under the effects of Fly.
Edit: Ninja'd
Aether is my choice. Yes, it only has a physical blast until you can composite, but it gives you combat maneuvers, healing, a kind of flight*, the ability to move big objects, disintegrate. It's defense is also the most broad. It affects anything that does HP damage, it's only flaw is that it's ablative.
*If you get self-TK and greater self-TK, you essentially have flight except that can only move in straight lines. Which is pretty good for many circumstances.
Of course only air can get your character to move at 115mph for as long as you want.
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Aether is my choice. Yes, it only has a physical blast until you can composite, but it gives you combat maneuvers, healing, a kind of flight*, the ability to move big objects, disintegrate. It's defense is also the most broad. It affects anything that does HP damage, it's only flaw is that it's ablative.
*If you get self-TK and greater self-TK, you essentially have flight except that can only move in straight lines. Which is pretty good for many circumstances.
Of course only air can get your character to move at 115mph for as long as you want.
But only a summoner putting all of their evolution points and feats into flight can get machs
I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
A fire-focused kineticist is likely going to be in the unenviable position of having to lean on unraveling infusion, smoke storm, and not much else as levels go up and their main source of damage becomes less and less useful. Fire also doesn't seem to have nearly as much stuff that's generally useful no matter the enemy as the other types, since the fire battlefield-control talents all seem to rely on fire in a way that's just not very useful against fire-immune enemies. (Compare to, for example, air getting electricity damage, haste, save-or-die type suffocation, wind wall, etc.)
On this general line of thought, I'd be really interested to see somebody do an analysis of the Pathfinder APs to see how many enemies of each CR have immunity to given energy types, if it hasn't already been done already.
I've been building a pyrokineticist, and it seems like the character is going to really take off at around level 7. At that level he'll gain both Blue Flame and Eruption, meaning he'll be able to create a 4d6+7 10 ft radius AOE every round (no burn w/move action), or 6d6+7 if he takes 2 burn.
Things get much better at level 8 with Infusion Specialization 2 (1 burn for 8d6+7 AOE!), and he'll also gain Flash Infusion so he can blind people. The best part of Flash Infusion is that you don't have to do any damage for it to work, so it works on enemies that are immune to fire!
Luckily we aren't doing an AP, so I don't think fire resistance and immunity will be a huge issue anyway.
By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.
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What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.
But only a summoner putting all of their evolution points and feats into flight can get machs
I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing 610' movement with all evolution and feats put into that. Make it 640' with haste. Double move is 1280'/turn. That's 12,800 ft/min, which is 145 mph. Mach 1 is 761 mph.
If it's a half-elf you can bump it up to 168, but that's a long way from Mach.
And that's at 20th level.
Aeromancers can do 115mph at 12th level. And do other stuff than just fly.
He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
I think they meant this,
Element fire; Type substance infusion; Level 7; Burn 4 Associated Blasts blue flame
Saving Throw none
You open a direct conduit to the purest elemental fire and send it surging forth. Your infused blast ignores spell resistance.
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
Oh. That's what Matrix Dragon guessed for resistances. It's useless against immunities though.
He probably meant draining infusion for immunity. It only works for things of the same subtype as a kineticist's element focus. Dragons and elementals? Sure. Demons, devils, angels, or other creatures with no element subtypes but still got the immunities? A Kineticist who doesnt branch out would get boned.What ability does that? From what I saw the resistance piercing is really slow (1d6/round and requires a failed save... and the enemy not putting the fire out), and I don't think there is anything for ignoring Immunity.By the time you get to that level, you get the option to laugh at both resistance and immunity.I'm not sure which is the strongest, but I think fire ends up at the bottom of the heap.
Everybody and their dog has fire resist or fire immunity by mid to high levels, and unlike most of the energy types, there are a lot of high-level monsters that have fire immunity without having the fire subtype. Devils are universally immune to fire, for example, and random demons have immunity to fire on top of their demon traits.
I think they meant this,
** spoiler omitted **
Pure flame infusion isn't good for energy resistance or energy immunities.
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.
That does nothing against immunity, and reducing fire resistance by 1d6 per round isn't all that impressive, especially when somebody on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save every round to extinguish it.
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.That does nothing against immunity, and reducing fire resistance by 1d6 per round isn't all that impressive, especially when somebody on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save every round to extinguish it.
The saving throw DC is probably also 10 + half kineticist level for effective spell level + Con modifier (which can potentially get real high thanks to elemental overflow granting a size bonus to Con), just like the one to avoid getting on fire.
Actually some help, does one become automatically on fire if pyro bears SR or does enemy get a Reflex save to avoid being set on fire?
Of course, this is why pyrokineticists would be wise to branch out into another element. Or carry a crossbow.
Specifically an underwater crossbow. Anyone read underwater combat rules? Trying to cast fire descriptor stuff underwater sucks.
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Specifically an underwater crossbow. Anyone read underwater combat rules? Trying to cast fire descriptor stuff underwater sucks.
I think a pyrokineticist would just never go underwater. Ever. They would just pass. "Uhhhh, yeah, no, I'm gonna just sit this out out guys." "But the--" "Yeah, really sorry, but I've got this thing with my back, and I just ate..."
My players are actually so deathly afraid of getting their butts handed to them by water encounters that sometimes I really play up that there's a pond or something just to freak them out. More often than not it's a harmless pond. A really sinister harmless pond...
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Pretty much anybody who isn't designed for water encounters sucks. Throwers, gunslingers, meleeists who didn't choose piercing weapons...
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Specifically an underwater crossbow. Anyone read underwater combat rules? Trying to cast fire descriptor stuff underwater sucks.I think a pyrokineticist would just never go underwater. Ever. They would just pass. "Uhhhh, yeah, no, I'm gonna just sit this out out guys." "But the--" "Yeah, really sorry, but I've got this thing with my back, and I just ate..."
My players are actually so deathly afraid of getting their butts handed to them by water encounters that sometimes I really play up that there's a pond or something just to freak them out. More often than not it's a harmless pond. A really sinister harmless pond...
i just imagine yoon sitting at the water's edge trying to boil it away.