I was wonder what cool ideas you have found or made to replace Cancan casting.
Here is mine
1 No prep
2 No Arcane/Divine
3 Would be called spell caster
4 Whenever you cast a spell it deals x nonlethal damage (ex. More powerful spells deal more Nonlethal damage
5 No spell levels
If you could help I would appreciate it.
Look at the old Ars Magica game. Best Magic System EVAR.
Look at the old Ars Magica game. Best Magic System EVAR.
Not really looking for that kind of thing.
Thanks though.
Though Ars Magica is designed for a game where everyone plays mages and any non-casters are just flunkies, IIRC. Not exactly what everyone wants.
For the OP's idea: It seems very limited and boring to me. Spells just do nonlethal damage, no other effects? No utility. No healing. No summoning. Just zap nonlethal damage.
With no spell levels, what's a "more powerful spell"? If you were going to go that route, I'd just tie it directly to caster level - higher level = more damage.
No No No!
That is not what I meant. When you cast a spell it does non lethal damage to you, But also does the spells effect to the person you are casting it on. This method limits your spells per day and goes up when you are higher level.
Sorry if that was not clear.
I second the notion of getting Ars Magica (as far as I know the game is still alive btw, Atlas Games IIRC), the magic system really is the best magic sistem I know of (since Ars Magica is the game that basically introduced the world of darkness you can even introduce some of the later ideas like the Gauntlet, the deep umbra and so on, all stuff medieval hermetic magic could not really deal with very well).
In Ars you can be a knight using magic or a rogue using magic and so on. Try it out, you won't be disappointed.
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There was a time when people had no idea what Vancian casting even meant. I'm more tired of the smarky internet.
You should check out True Sorcery by Green Ronin ( I think) it sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
You should check out True Sorcery by Green Ronin ( I think) it sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
Yah I already saw that. It looks interesting.
Spheres of Power is my go to. Just love that system.
1 No prep
2 No Arcane/Divine
3 Would be called spell caster
4 Whenever you cast a spell it deals x nonlethal damage (ex. More powerful spells deal more Nonlethal damage
5 No spell levels
You could also take a look at the 3.5E Midnight campaign setting. Spellcasting is broken into feats that anyone can take (although the spellcaster class gets them as bonus feats). You can cast a few spells "for free", but after that you start to take Con damage.
Though Ars Magica is designed for a game where everyone plays mages and any non-casters are just flunkies, IIRC. Not exactly what everyone wants.
For the OP's idea: It seems very limited and boring to me. Spells just do nonlethal damage, no other effects? No utility. No healing. No summoning. Just zap nonlethal damage.
With no spell levels, what's a "more powerful spell"? If you were going to go that route, I'd just tie it directly to caster level - higher level = more damage.No No No!
That is not what I meant. When you cast a spell it does non lethal damage to you, But also does the spells effect to the person you are casting it on. This method limits your spells per day and goes up when you are higher level.
Sorry if that was not clear.
Ah. That makes more sense.
You've got to watch out for healing spells in such systems. It can work though.
You would need a rule that states this nonlethal damage could only be healed thru rest or something.
Shadowrun's various versions use a system where you take damage from casting. Pretty much each spell has a code of how hard it is to resist taking damage from the spell and how much it does. It could be adapted with some work.
In the past, I've used spell points, limited magic, constitution damage and other limiters on spell casters. They have worked to varying effects and definitely gave the game a different feel than bog standard D&D or Pathfindner.
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Shadowrun's various versions use a system where you take damage from casting. Pretty much each spell has a code of how hard it is to resist taking damage from the spell and how much it does. It could be adapted with some work.
In the past, I've used spell points, limited magic, constitution damage and other limiters on spell casters. They have worked to varying effects and definitely gave the game a different feel than bog standard D&D or Pathfindner.
Thing with Shadowrun however is that you have much lower total hp (generally speaking) and healing definitely wasn't nearly as easy to accomplish as Pathfinder sets it up to be.
I believe a mana casting system would work alright. Convert total spell slots per day into mana points (adjusting for higher level spell slots being worth more points). Then convert spell levels into costing an amount of points.
There does need to be some reduction in the overall number of spells that could be cast comparatively, because the system no longer requires any preparation and gives supreme versatility.
I had a friend who worked out a system based on these principle and I think it worked out such that if you tried to cast the same number of spell using the mana system versus normal slotted casting you ended up being able to cast 1 less of each of your two highest spell levels. Of course, this was trying to match spell for spell starting with the lowest first. It did enable you to cast your highest level spell per day more often, but left you with little mana points left to cast anything else (the cost conversion was an exponential curve).
I flagged this for Wrong Forum. I think it will get better traction in the house rules forum.
I've dabbled with cast-from-HP systems many times, but it always comes down to this: casters already skew toward fewer HP, so HP is a poor choice for a casting resource unless you intend to neuter them.
For inspiration on a truly great magic system that approximates Pathfinder's feel while eliminating most of the annoying cruft, I can't recommend Iron Kingdoms RPG highly enough.
Short, unambiguous spell descriptions with standardized mechanics. Spells are either instantaneous duration or you pay to keep them up (no tracking rounds, EVER). It's a very nice system, and it's the first place I'd look if I were up to the task of replacing Vancian magic.
That said, it's way more likely that I would just play IKRPG whole, because Vancian is one of the sacred cows that actually justify playing Pathfinder to me.
I second the notion of getting Ars Magica (as far as I know the game is still alive btw, Atlas Games IIRC), the magic system really is the best magic sistem I know of (since Ars Magica is the game that basically introduced the world of darkness you can even introduce some of the later ideas like the Gauntlet, the deep umbra and so on, all stuff medieval hermetic magic could not really deal with very well).
In Ars you can be a knight using magic or a rogue using magic and so on. Try it out, you won't be disappointed.For full disclosure, the following does need to be said.
1. The magic in Ars Magica is much more limited in scope and effect than D20 style magic. It's a major reason why the system works.
2. Properly run, the same is even more true for Mage:The Assension or Mag:Whatever They're Calling It Now.
Agreed about Ars Magica, the limits of Hermetic Magic prevent things like Wish from working, yet in regards to the setting magic is arguably even more powerful than in Ars Magica than in PF (it's mythic medieval Europe, yes, but things capable of taking on a covenant of magi are few and far between anyway).
Not so much about Mage (both Ascension and Awakening): paradox is a powerful tool the system uses to keep magi in line but it leaves the potential for truly earth-shattering magic if one is willing to risk it (or has ways to mitigate the backlash). That's talking about the core rules and not considering stuff like archspheres or imperial mysteries that allow you to get to lvl 9-10 arcana)
Shadowrun's various versions use a system where you take damage from casting. Pretty much each spell has a code of how hard it is to resist taking damage from the spell and how much it does. It could be adapted with some work.
In the past, I've used spell points, limited magic, constitution damage and other limiters on spell casters. They have worked to varying effects and definitely gave the game a different feel than bog standard D&D or Pathfindner.
Thing with Shadowrun however is that you have much lower total hp (generally speaking) and healing definitely wasn't nearly as easy to accomplish as Pathfinder sets it up to be.
I believe a mana casting system would work alright. Convert total spell slots per day into mana points (adjusting for higher level spell slots being worth more points). Then convert spell levels into costing an amount of points.
There does need to be some reduction in the overall number of spells that could be cast comparatively, because the system no longer requires any preparation and gives supreme versatility.
I had a friend who worked out a system based on these principle and I think it worked out such that if you tried to cast the same number of spell using the mana system versus normal slotted casting you ended up being able to cast 1 less of each of your two highest spell levels. Of course, this was trying to match spell for spell starting with the lowest first. It did enable you to cast your highest level spell per day more often, but left you with little mana points left to cast anything else (the cost conversion was an exponential curve).
I did a similar system, and the final result was, at 20, a 40% reduction in spells per day in exchange for completely versatile casting.
What I'm tempted to try now is a system where a caster gets a small pool (something on the order of class level + mod), but it regenerates at a steady amount per round anytime that they aren't casting (like 1 per 3 class levels). That way the caster could "go all day" just as much as the non-casters, but selective spell use would be important.
I'd probably use the psionics style of having to pay for spell caster level as well. Might also make the spell point pool stat and casting DC stat different.
For inspiration on a truly great magic system that approximates Pathfinder's feel while eliminating most of the annoying cruft, I can't recommend Iron Kingdoms RPG highly enough.
Short, unambiguous spell descriptions with standardized mechanics. Spells are either instantaneous duration or you pay to keep them up (no tracking rounds, EVER). It's a very nice system, and it's the first place I'd look if I were up to the task of replacing Vancian magic.
I'm not very familiar with IK. Can you give us a slightly more elaborate description of its magic system?
I once played with a modified version of the spellcasting system from Monte Cook's World of Darkness. The versatility is insane and might break games if the DM is not prepared for it.
Rogue Genius' Spellpoint Compilation is hands-down, the best alternative I've seen to core Vancian as it's a seamless plug-in that accounts for caster class abilities and doesn't alter the game aside from how spells are prepared and cast. Highly recommended.
You could always run a warhammer winds of magic rule change?
Okay for the next few rounds you have 7 spell levels you can use, then 0 (wind stopped) then 9. Go for it.
Magic then becomes tied to luck with break or slow periods but no spellcaster running out.
Also magicka's magic system is marvelous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magicka
Would need to use counters to track the elements and power and prob a roll to see what they can use each round (or make it random but their level determines how many components of the spell they have). Spells of course have to have the correct combination to be used, but even if you don't have enough offense is always possible (if you get nothing but fire and water, at least you get a blast of scalding steam to use, hopefully you get what you need for a spell next time).
For inspiration on a truly great magic system that approximates Pathfinder's feel while eliminating most of the annoying cruft, I can't recommend Iron Kingdoms RPG highly enough.
Short, unambiguous spell descriptions with standardized mechanics. Spells are either instantaneous duration or you pay to keep them up (no tracking rounds, EVER). It's a very nice system, and it's the first place I'd look if I were up to the task of replacing Vancian magic.
I'm not very familiar with IK. Can you give us a slightly more elaborate description of its magic system?
Sure! It's basically the same system as Warmachine and Hordes uses.
You have a finite resource of 5-10 points. We'll call it "Focus" for sake of argument, although there are other types. Each turn, you pay a spell cost (4 is a lot, 1 is cheap) in order to cast spells. Your resource resets each turn.
If a spell effect can last longer than one turn, it is marked as an "upkeep". This means at the beginning of your turn, you pay one Focus to keep the spell.
For continuous effects that should have their own duration (such as being set on fire) you roll each turn to see if the effect expires. If it doesn't expire, you apply the effect.
There is a wide variety of spells, but they definitely have a combat focus. There are enchantments and the like but they still mostly apply to tactical scenarios -- that's just the way magic is in that setting. This is what allows them to keep spell descriptions concise, and by the same token allows non-caster types to shine in certain roles unavailable to casters.
I love the power and the legacy of Vancian magic, I really do. But if there were something to "fix" about it, I'd say that shorter spell descriptions with a much tighter effect on the game would be it. Oh, and duration tracking is also a nightmare.
But the reason I mention this system here is that eliminating Vancian is a really tough problem. Much like challenge rating has gradually been re-contextualized to single-encounter metrics over time, you'd definitely want a spell point system to be a single encounter metric as well. Without "memorization", the most obvious way to limit spellcasters from being out of control is to force choices... they can do a lot of things, but they can only do a couple at once.
If you write the spells properly, then you give them enough rope to hang themselves, and the game becomes interesting. The choices are meaningful.
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Another problem with rejiggering the magic rules in Pathfinder is that they basically *are* the system. The number of casting classes is far and away greater than the mundane classes.
With so much of the game rules hung on the difference between these classes, and the difference between types of magic, if you gut the magic system you end up with a 50 page rulebook.
And if you try to merely alter the system you run into much the same problem -- change "memorization" or preparation and suddenly the roles of all the different classes make no sense.
If you don't like Vancian but don't want to change the system too much, give all spellcasters a pool of spell levels to draw upon (say 10 spell levels per level each day, so a level 8 has 80 spell levels to throw around before they are empty) and call it a day. Sorcerers get 15 per level and some casters get less.
Agreed about Ars Magica, the limits of Hermetic Magic prevent things like Wish from working, yet in regards to the setting magic is arguably even more powerful than in Ars Magica than in PF (it's mythic medieval Europe, yes, but things capable of taking on a covenant of magi are few and far between anyway).
Covenents are easy to take out. If the local pious priest decides that you're an abomination to the Lord, and you've really offended his sensibilities, he can lead a local crusade to burn you out, and the Dominion he carries with him will make your spells pretty much useless.
The problem is the higher the sphere level, the more likely Paradox will bite you in the ass. It's very GM dependent, the rules of Paradox are much more loose guidelines than hard and set the way Pathfinder/D20 rules are.
Not so much about Mage (both Ascension and Awakening): paradox is a powerful tool the system uses to keep magi in line but it leaves the potential for truly earth-shattering magic if one is willing to risk it (or has ways to mitigate the backlash). That's talking about the core rules and not considering stuff like archspheres or imperial mysteries that allow you to get to lvl 9-10 arcana)
Easy? I suppose it comes down to the kind of storyteller you are: how I play things there's really a very small minority of people with true faith in the mythic medieval setting, and generally speaking they are not that interessed in crusading against mages due to the fact True Faith is not just "another power", in the setting it means you are actually just and righteous and you do not persecute the innocent (of course if the magi are a cabal of deranged diabolists then things change). Aside from that a mage with enough resources can do things like wiping out entire cities with a tzunami build armies of golems or create whole palaces from dirt. In the context of the setting mages are exceedingly powerful and the fact true faith trumps hermetic magic is not a reason to imply otherwise, as true faith in the context of the setting trumps absolutely everything, infernal and fae powers included.
And yes, paradox is a b#!#~ but it's necessary, otherwise we'd be playing with gods (actually IF you are allowed to go archmage you are playing one) capable of literally any feat as long as we have the right sphere or combination of spheres.
And of course it's all GM dependant, but that's true for any RPG. In PF I do not allow wishes to create diamonds for example, and there's only so many 25k gp diamonds avaiable at any moment in time. That helps quite a lot at stopping the spell going out of hand. At the same time I do not allow the limited wish/geas sheanigans and I warn players beforehand. Yes, by raw it might be acceptable but no, it's not acceptable on my table. So do not invest resources that way unless you want to be disappointed. And so on.
Before I hide this topic from myself, I want to tell you why. The only problem I had with psionics was the psi points I had to keep track of. I don't like any of the spell points suggested here weather they are mental or physical. If casting spells does non lethal damage to the caster, what happens when they pass out casting a spell with upkeep?
If you are willing to create a system like my leveled mutation, where they have a specific power that grows more powerful, like spell paths were, I might be interested.
You could also expand my ritual system where attempting a spell is not a sure thing, and failure has consequences that are appropriate. You try to throw a fireball, and if you roll a one on the attempt, it centers on you. The good news is that without your mental inventory halved by Vancian spells stored in your mind, you have more room for spells, rituals, and locations you have memorized. No spell levels, but more powerful spells have a higher DC to cast. You can min max your dex. for gestures, Intelligence for verbal components, skills that have an effect on that spell, and focuses/components that give you the best possible chance for that spell.
A fighter could try to cast Magic missile unlimited times per day, but sooner or later he would have to survive his own spell targeting him and only him. Cure light wounds could backfire on a cleric as cause light wounds.
Anyways, you can see why I'm going to stick with Vancian for now. If you sort this out and start a new topic with a more usable system, I will look that over and make a new decision.
Go to Link.
Spheres of Power is my go to. Just love that system.
Seconded. I'd like to play in a game with it, but haven't had the opportunity yet.
Eh, I replaced it with vitalized spell points from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana (you get fatigued the less spell points you have, eventually to unconsciousness for my changes). Condensed the Sorcerer and Wizard into pretty much what Paizo put out as the Arcanist. Then again, I also made "magic is magic" and got rid of arcane/divine distinction, and simply made it the method of casting... Of course, I also changed up how a whole hell of a lot of other stuff works (hp into a vigor/health/wound system, armor as DR & conversion), so it works for me. At least it does in what little playtesting I can get with it.
I find the problem with mana point systems that are mathematically similar to Psionics in 3.5 are that you can basically exclude casting 1st level spells in order to get additional higher level spells. This shifts the power balance in favor of casters IMO because it just opens up more options and gives them additional uses of their most powerful abilities per day.
I've seen it once where someone flipped the math and I quite liked it. Instead of a swiftly increasing mana pool, you instead focus on the cost of the spells.
Imagine a 1st level wizard starts with 15 spell points. 1st level spells cost 7 points to cast. That's 2 a day. When they advance a level they get 1 additional spell point (it helps expanding the pool slightly to give you more room for your math). At 3rd level, the cost of 1st level spells goes down to 5 and now 2nd level spells cost 7. Eventually as you go up in levels, low level spells become free. In terms of power, a 17th level wizard having unlimited 1st level spells really isn't game breaking (or you could keep the minimum cost of 1 spell point if that bothers you).
This keeps high level spells always eating a large portion of the spell pool, while low level spells reduce in cost. You can also have items/feats/class abilities that reduce cost. Like specialist wizards might pay 1 or 2 less for their specialty, and double that amount for their opposed school.
I've played a high level caster with the increasing pool/static cost method and I just pumped out 7th to 9th level spells all day. It had it's charm of always launching my big, powerful spells, but at the same time there was no decision making on my part of when to use them or not. I just always used them.
Altho I am a fan of Vancian, I tried a BoNS Swordsage taking the fire etc powers, and it was wonderful. He also wasn't a wuss in melee combat.
Non-Vancian non-spellpoints, and it works.
In the old 3.5 Unearthed Arcana there are rules for getting rid of Vancian magic.
Basically - from what I recall - it boiled down to being able to cast spells of a certain level followed by downtime.
i.e. All spells per level require 6 rounds of downtime. An 11th level wizard casts his 6th level spell - has to wait 6 rounds until casting another 6th level spell. On his next round, he casts a 3rd level spell, and has to wait 6 rounds until casting another 3rd level spell, and has to wait another 5 rounds until casting a 6th level spell again.
And as others have mentioned, Mage:the Ascension and Ars Magica are all interesting games in their own way and have wide ranging powers with very different feels and limitations to them.
I think with some tweaking, how systems like Mutants and Masterminds handle Magic might be a good change.
Magic Users have a limited number of spells they can cast, but can use Extra Effort (Fatiguing themselves in the process) or rituals to gain other effects in a pinch.
Of course this requires a lot more GM oversight than the "Set it and forget it" magic we have now.
Essentially you could replicate any spell effect you could think of, limited only by your imagination. But only up to a certain effectiveness based on your level.
Flawed as it is (due to requiring A LOT of trust between GM and players), I think it's a good representation of what magic is in most fantasy settings, and works well enough.
Especially since there's already a spell for basically everything in the game. All you lose out on is the pre-set names.
For a less comprehensive overhaul...I always thought Words of Power could use more love. Maybe in conjunction with a Psionic-like Power Point system.
There is the system in McWoD
It's kind of a D20 version of the Mage the awakening system
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We dropped Vancian style casting out of our games a while back and replaced it with spherecasting from Drop Dead Studios' Spheres of Power and haven't looked back. You gain a sphere (Life, Death, Destruction, Creation, Illusion, Divination, etc.) which comes with some basic at-will abilities that can be juiced up by spending some of your limited spell points. When you level, you can either put more points into that sphere to expand its abilities (for example, take the simple ray you get from Destruction, then buy more Destruction talents to turn the ray into a spherical explosion and add fire to it, thus learning your "fireball"), or you can buy a new sphere to gain its abilities. This has been one of my favorite casting systems in d20, and IMHO, does the best job I've seen of emulating the widest array of character archetypes.