Here's to hoping that paizo takes note of the new feedback on their possibly rushed errata, which was prompted by guilt/feedback from their rushed book, and slowly and carefully craft improvements that make real differences and are not arbitrary or without necessity.
I didn't mean to imply that the change to Mutation Warrior is a drastic nerf that will ruin a lot of PCs. It is just personally kind of inconvenient for me.
On the other hand, it isn't like I delved into a grey area of the rules here and tried to cajole the DM into making a ruling in my favor though. The rules just said you got the Mutagen at 1st level. That seemed unexpectedly good but not completely outrageous since that is when an Alchemist would normally get it. Mark says they made a typo though. I'm not real happy with the editing there, but if he's basically admitting they messed up what is there to do but accept it was a mistake and move on? Maybe they'll kind of make up for it by finally releasing some additional clarifications on grappling, which is the affected PC's primary melee tactic.
@Rynjin - Please don't encourage them to make all the archetypical Vikings out there wait for Rage until 5th level. Vikings already grow sad when there are Skalds around since to benefit from the Skald's rage powers the Vikings would need to forgo using their own. It seems odd that the Viking archetype makes a Fighter work worse with Skalds instead of better, but maybe this explains why so many Skalds are moving to Cheliax to work with the Hellknights instead.
I still want an answer as to why they went to war on Opportune Parry and Riposte. It was perfectly sensible for both Daring Champion and Kata Master to get. If anything, Daring Champion should have lost Precise Strike, not Parry. Static damage + even MORE static damage is a way bigger problem than Parry ever even possibly could have been.
That's what is so aggravating to me. They clearer developed a swift hatred for an ability that's fun, but not that overpowering. Taking signature deed from it was really all they ever needed to do to keep it from becoming too strong. And If their worry was for the sake of the Swashbuckler, then as was said, they went WAY too far. And that's just one example of how bad I consider this errata to be.
Allowing Signature Deed to reduce the cost of Parry/Riposte to 0 really would have been all the Swashbuckler needed to justify existing in comparison to Daring Champion IMO. It's the most fun ability the class has, but also fairly limited. Let the archetypes have it, but only you, the main class, get the ability to spam the hell out of it all day long.
Stripping Parry/Riposte from everyone not Swashbuckler and then making it so Swashbuckler can't eventually be always awesome with it is an odd middle ground to me. It's like being anti-abortion but pro killing babies.
Boy am I glad I don't have the Advanced Class Guide :-)
Almost out a year and it's getting everyone even more frothy then when it came out :-)
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Question about the new Pummeling Style... So now if one of your attack rolls is a confirmed crit, you just add that damage into any other damage your other hits may have done? I understand you don't treat the entire attack as a crit, it just seems funny to me that a part of your one punch would be a crit. Is that the equivalent of how Clustered Shots works?
Boy am I glad I don't have the Advanced Class Guide :-)
Almost out a year and it's getting everyone even more frothy then when it came out :-)
I like you. Though I think even with all the changes it might be worth giving it a chance for you.
Yeah, I'm glad I haven't bought it yet, too. Now with the changes, I'll purchase a copy so I don't have to edit the book myself.
Divine Protetion was a decidedly fun and enjoyable power feat that worked great according to all those I know. Now it's... a feat I don't think anyone I know would ever bother taking. Including myself.
Hahahaha. Hah. No.
Worst designed feat ever. The people who were responsible for the original release should have worn hubcaps of shame until they fixed this. The fix may be a bit overzealous, but this feat should never have been published in the first place.
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Divine Protetion was a decidedly fun and enjoyable power feat that worked great according to all those I know. Now it's... a feat I don't think anyone I know would ever bother taking. Including myself.Hahahaha. Hah. No.
Worst designed feat ever. The people who were responsible for the original release should have worn hubcaps of shame until they fixed this. The fix may be a bit overzealous, but this feat should never have been published in the first place.
Hahahahahano. At least it actually DID something.
Yes getting +9 to ALL your saves by 10th level as an Oracle is not remotely OP...... hell make it Dwarven, grab Steel Soul and make it a nice and tidy +13 at 10th!
How anyone could think Divine Prot was broken is beyond me....
News just in..... Shaman underpowered, desperately needs buffing!
Hahahahahano. At least it actually DID something.Divine Protetion was a decidedly fun and enjoyable power feat that worked great according to all those I know. Now it's... a feat I don't think anyone I know would ever bother taking. Including myself.Hahahaha. Hah. No.
Worst designed feat ever. The people who were responsible for the original release should have worn hubcaps of shame until they fixed this. The fix may be a bit overzealous, but this feat should never have been published in the first place.
Yeah yeah, Prone Shooter, whatever. Bringing out a feat which accidentally does nothing is stupid, but I can see the developer and editor both overlooking that, because there are a gazillion rules.
Bringing out a feat which gives every charisma based class between +2 to +11 (or more, if you really twink it) to all saves is ridiculous. The Paladin is the only class to get it for a reason, because it very often is hard to play the class, due to the usual Paladin problems.
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Every charisma based class? I was not aware that sorcerors, bards, bloodragers and skalds had mystery, domains or blessings class feature and the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells. In fact, I'm pretty sure a big issue with the feat was that it was really only useful to oracles and the occasional cleric, given its prerequisites.
This is not to say it was not an OP feat and that it should not have been nerfed. I saw the writing on the wall; I never selected it for any of the characters I created that qualified for it because it was obviously going to be changed in some way. However I don't think it should have been burned to the ground and relegated to the garbage pile. Histrionics like "it gave every charisma based class +2 to +11 to all saves!!!11!!!one!!!!111" when that is clearly not the case don't help us get a reasonable nerf.
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The Paladin is the only class to get it for a reason, because it very often is hard to play the class, due to the usual Paladin problems.
And the devs can give that ability to anyone else they want, if they deem fit. Obviously, they did at first, and have since reconsidered. If it's not broken on the paladin, it's not broken on anyone else. The class is nowhere near as hard to play as you make it out to be.
. If it's not broken on the paladin, it's not broken on anyone else.
Sorry, I don't agree. The Paladin needs more than a single good attribute to be effective. They generally want good values in Strength, Constitution (although this is somewhat mitigated by LoH), and Charisma. They don't have enough spell casting to funnel everything through Charisma.
With some of the mysteries, an Oracle comes very close to not needing anything except a high Charisma. Some of them are much more SAD than the wizard.
You could still reskin it as all one punch. It's just not mechanically.
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Divine Protection was strong, about at the level of Power Attack, Spell Perfection, and lets say Divine Interference.
But honestly unless we are going to trim things like Simulacrum, Blood Money, Gate, All undead creation spells, and Dazing Spell from the game, the problem was not that the feat was too strong. It was that it buffed the wrong people.
*Shrug* I would have been fine with it where it was or it being nerfed to "Select one save and use CHR instead".
It is just a symptom though, this errata, the mess that was unchained and the general design thrust towards "Weaker is better, strong is bad" makes me unhappy.
If people want to play that way fine more power to them. The powerful options should exist so that those who want them can have them and those who do not simply do not use them.
If you have a mix of these people simply talk before the game begins, act like responsible adults and decide what power level to play at.
Having a game where "Past this level, you need this much casting to play" is frustrating and dispiriting. It also means that games break due to all of the most powerful options being gated behind 9th level casting.
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The fact that a feat can be cut in one-third and still be desirable is perhaps proof that a feat is overpowered.
Every charisma based class? I was not aware that sorcerors, bards, bloodragers and skalds had mystery, domains or blessings class feature and the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells. In fact, I'm pretty sure a big issue with the feat was that it was really only useful to oracles and the occasional cleric, given its prerequisites.
This is not to say it was not an OP feat and that it should not have been nerfed. I saw the writing on the wall; I never selected it for any of the characters I created that qualified for it because it was obviously going to be changed in some way. However I don't think it should have been burned to the ground and relegated to the garbage pile. Histrionics like "it gave every charisma based class +2 to +11 to all saves!!!11!!!one!!!!111" when that is clearly not the case don't help us get a reasonable nerf.
I probably should have said "every charisma based class who was willing to invest one level of an appropiate class to qualify for it", but the point is the same. The feat was way too good, obviously so, and should never have survived even a first editing pass.
And the devs can give that ability to anyone else they want, if they deem fit. Obviously, they did at first, and have since reconsidered. If it's not broken on the paladin, it's not broken on anyone else. The class is nowhere near as hard to play as you make it out to be.
A gazillion Paladin threads say differently. Find me another class which is equally as controversial.
That's fine. I don't find passive bonuses to be overpowered. If you invest resources in your saves, you should be good at saves.
That's what Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes are for. If you can't see what a +5 to all saves with one feat (just putting out a random number, it can be a bit lower or much higher) does to game balance, then I can't help you.
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Obviously, I don't need your help. Anymore than you need mine.
The fact that a feat can be cut in one-third and still be desirable is perhaps proof that a feat is overpowered.
Oh, I don't doubt that it is too powerful for some games. But that is different than being broken or badly designed. Maybe that's the distinction people are missing in my responses. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. That's not broken.
It clearly is badly designed. Terribly, in fact.
It clearly is badly designed. Terribly, in fact.Nope. You just didn't like it.
Whatever, dude.
For bad design please see arithmancy or sacred geometry.
Feats like what I listed above are powerful not necessarily badly designed.
I like the idea of having different options for power level and not having all to play at the same level.
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It clearly is badly designed. Terribly, in fact.Nope. You just didn't like it.
I'm of the mind that the new divine protection is worse in design than the old one.
Adding rules to the game that do not add to the quality of the game is a waste of time and poor design.
Old DP was boring design. Of course in this game if you ever fail a save its time to pull out your phone and crush some candy.
For bad design please see arithmancy or sacred geometry.
Feats like what I listed above are powerful not necessarily badly designed.
I like the idea of having different options for power level and not having all to play at the same level.
A feat which clearly does miles better than similarly themed feats (the benchmarks which are still Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes), to the point where it outweighs the benefits of a single one of those feats to the factor of x15 is terribly designed from a mechanical standpoint. Even if you weigh in that only a few classes can use the feat.
Old DP was boring design. Of course in this game if you ever fail a save its time to pull out your phone and crush some candy.
Many years of game experience as a player and GM say otherwise. If you only crunch out characters which can never fail saves or your GM isn't capable of putting up opposition which can make you fail one, then something is going wrong with your group.
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1. Divine protection gave a huge bonus to saves for oracles for the investment of one feat. It was absolutley ridiculously out of proportion in terms of defensive benefit to cost ratio compared to any other feat in the game. It was overpowered, full stop. This is generally accepted as truth on these boards.
2. There are people who really liked the feat because it made their oracles super powered. These people will not be convinced, no matter what you say to them, that the feat was too strong.
3. Now that everyone understands each other, please end this silly tangent.
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1. Divine protection gave a huge bonus to saves for oracles for the investment of one feat. It was absolutley ridiculously out of proportion in terms of defensive benefit to cost ratio compared to any other feat in the game. It was overpowered, full stop. This is generally accepted as truth on these boards.It gave a Cha based bonus to the handful of classes that could qualify for it, just because one class could get it easier than the others doesn't make the feat broke.
2. There are people who really liked the feat because it made their oracles super powered. These people will not be convinced, no matter what you say to them, that the feat was too strong.Never played an oracle, or any other full casters. I play Barbarians and Rangers. I still don't think the feat is broken just because of what one class can do with it.
3. Now that everyone understands each other, please end this silly tangent.
Talking about the errata in a thread about the errata isn't really a tangent. Though yes, can we be a little bit more civil please in our disagreements?
I'm not too broken up about Divine Protection; it was only good for Oracles with the prereq's, and Oracles were the very last class that needed any help.I just vomit a little when I read, "Once per day" in a feat. And then the effect is worse than some 1st level spells.Has the errata been re-errata'd since yesterday? Because I'm not seeing "once per day". It only applies to one save now rather than all of them, but that does not seem unreasonable.
Once per day as an immediate action you can add your cha mod to one save before you roll that save.
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Once per day as an immediate action you can add your cha mod to one save before you roll that save.I'm not too broken up about Divine Protection; it was only good for Oracles with the prereq's, and Oracles were the very last class that needed any help.I just vomit a little when I read, "Once per day" in a feat. And then the effect is worse than some 1st level spells.Has the errata been re-errata'd since yesterday? Because I'm not seeing "once per day". It only applies to one save now rather than all of them, but that does not seem unreasonable.
If it was one save all day long it would still be a good feat and there wouldn't be such vocal opposition to the errata. Not mind blowing, but significantly better than Iron Will and friends for many characters(literally make the feat 1/3 the effect and it is still worthwhile).
Once per day as an immediate is a bad joke.
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Divine Protection was poorly designed... But holy s%*~! This nerfed nuked it into the ground! Now it's just yet another completely useless feat in the pile of useless feats that compose 80% of Pathfinder feats.
And of course, they also had to nerf every alternative to the Swashbuckler and make a pointlessly restrictive feat (Slashing Grace) even more pointlessly restrictive, because heavens forbid anyone plays a Dex-based character that doesn't use levels in that awful class that ignored all of its feedback during playtest...
This is why I have mostly ignored Paizo's errata ever since the Schrodinger's hands debacle.
Problem is even without it, the Oracle is verging into OP territory, that huge of a bonus for just 1 feat throws it way inside!!!
I've never played a cleric that had it, since it required too much of an investment into a stat that is only useful for channeling (for the most part a pretty worthless) ability....
Is there any reason why slashing grace doesn´t work with flurry of blows anymore?
It made me really happy to be able to play a fist of the south star style monk. Considering the feat investment, i don´t think this is out of the powercurve and needed to be ruled different.
You still CAN. You just have to shell out for the Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
I understand your disappointment at the lack of a feat to do it more elegantly...
True, but CLH is not wrong that it's still a fair bit better than failing a crucial Fortitude save,Not anymore! Well, Twist Away still works, but not with Ring of Ferocious Action or whatever.I played a Swashbuckler at 7th and 8th level. It's a solid damage dealer but anything that triggers an important save means you're straight up f&%@ed.Once you hit 11 you can at least shore up Fort with the Twist Away combo.
...And I think it relates to this.
I love that Paizo avoifds "must have" feats. I personally hate thinking "WHELP MAKING A ROGUE, NEED THAT TWIST AWAY". I would like to have options.
The thing is, I need those options again. Besides Iron Guts, there is little I can grant my Rogue to improve his CON saves. I'd love if there were a better selection of Rogue Talents to help it out.
Same for the Swashbuckler... Divine Protection now seems like a great feat for them, but it's going to be pretty annoying to spend 5 points into Knowledge (religion) on every swashbuckling action hero I create just for the privilege of not wasting Charmed Life attempts before a roll.
Also new Steadfast Personality encourages me to keep a 10 on my Wisdom, but if it doesn't affect non-mind affecting WIll saves, then it's bound to open my dude up for Curses and what not.
I don't want my characters to be cookie cutter but we do need the alternatives to fix their glaring gaps.
Problem is even without it, the Oracle is verging into OP territory, that huge of a bonus for just 1 feat throws it way inside!!!
I've never played a cleric that had it, since it required too much of an investment into a stat that is only useful for channeling (for the most part a pretty worthless) ability....
My straight Oracle is was getting CHA to all saves before Divine Protection ever came out, though admittedly Divine Protection was a much easier and earlier way to achieving that.
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Once per day as an immediate is a bad joke.
They changed the prereqs so that filthy non-casters could get it. Therefore the feat needed to be trash.
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I love that Paizo avoifds "must have" feats. I personally hate thinking "WHELP MAKING A ROGUE, NEED THAT TWIST AWAY". I would like to have options.
*cough*Spell Perfection*cough*
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I think I understand how Divine Protection made it's way into the book, seeing how the ACG was a book designed around stealing class features from one class to give to another. The feat was basically removing the need for oradins to take any paladin levels, which kind of sounds like a decent option, until you've got +~12 to saves for the same investment as a +1 to spell DCs, from one school. I mean, I know Paizo likes to incentivize single class characters, but it was a little much.
My straight Oracle is was getting CHA to all saves before Divine Protection ever came out, though admittedly Divine Protection was a much easier and earlier way to achieving that.
LOL.... well there we go.... point emphaticaly proved!!
Does anyone have any idea when the PRD will be updated to reflect the changes in errata?
It's very difficult for me to read the errata document and figure out what has been changed (and understand it) when I can't read the changes within the full context of the original document.
It basically requires me to have both PDFs open at once and reading through each part at a time.
LOL.... well there we go.... point emphaticaly proved!!My straight Oracle is was getting CHA to all saves before Divine Protection ever came out, though admittedly Divine Protection was a much easier and earlier way to achieving that.
It also burns a highly coveted feat slot which means my oracle wouldn't have taken it had it been an option.