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I've been tossing around a few ideas within my group as well as others about a highly survivable character who doesn't wear armor.
This is the basic idea so far:
1. Original Style Monk with Master of Many styles + Monk of the iron mountain. Take it to level 2.
2. Unchained Rogue for 4 or even more levels.
3. ???
4. Profit.
The basic idea is:
Monk: Wisdom to AC - Makes 2 stats count to armor, makes headband a new source of AC.
Monk: Iron mountain gives toughness and +1 natural armor
Monk: Master of many styles allows 2 free style feats without needing any prerequisites outside of the main feat as well as mixing 2 styles.
-Crane style for fighting defensively at -1 penalty for +4 dodge bonus (assuming i have the ranks in acrobatics for that bonus to it as well).
-Snapping turtle style for a +2 shield bonus (that applies to touch with a later feat.
Rogue: with 11 intellect i can get major magic, granting me 1 spell of my choice as a spell like ability from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. So for a little intellect investment i'll chose mage armor.
Rogue: weapon finesse + dex to damage allowing me to ignore strength.
this character would obviously take a bit of time for this all to fully come together but I imagine playing around swapping between monk/rogue trying to get bonus feats to align up right.
But it would basically be:
+1 natural + 2 shield + 4 dodge + 4 armor + dex + wis
So assuming they're always fighting defensively before we calculate in dex/wisdom we'd be sitting at a 22 AC.
More if we get the dodge feat involved and possibly even improved natural armor it could be even higher.
I contemplated getting free-hand or some other fighter archetype involved after the rogue levels to help alleviate the feat intensity of this build but not certain.
So i guess i was curious if this seems like a solid plan, maybe some different feats, classes, or maybe even get some prestige classes involved. I've just looked rogue/monk so far just because rogue let me get the finesse as well as mage armor with relative ease without needing to do any spellcaster dips.
A blocking weapon might be superior to spending a feat on turtle clutch. Also Major magic for mage armor seems like a waste as you can just UMD a wand. Anyways earliest you were gonna get major magic is level 6 by that time you can prolly get your wand activated fairly reliably.
22 AC isn't spectacular for level 6, and you're giving up basically all of your ability to do damage in return. You'd get more out of Urban Barbarian than Rogue, IMO. The ability to never get caught flat-footed is pretty nice for a dex-based character. You can mix it with Monk by taking a trait.
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Kensai magus, with a moms monk dip if you are on a generous point buy is also a option. Then you have 3 stats to AC and can have great damage and combat flexibility with magic as well. If the point buy is less then generous just stay kensai all the way and you can still be awesome.
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This is the basic idea so far:
1. Original Style Monk with Master of Many styles + Monk of the iron mountain. Take it to level 2.
2. Unchained Rogue for 4 or even more levels.
3. ???
4. Profit.
I love, and I mean I LOVE the Unchained Rogue.
But dear god, man, why aren't you either going Ninja, or better yet Sacred Fist?
ESPECIALLY if you're eating up 2 levels of Monk.
Sacred Fist will give you access to ACTUAL Spells, and you can fervor-cast them on yourself.
You'll have an already-high Wisdom so you can cast spells, AND it gets added to your AC like usual AND it fuels your Ki Pool.
And you can keep your high Dex because, well, Monk nonsense.
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Kensai magus, with a moms monk dip if you are on a generous point buy is also a option. Then you have 3 stats to AC and can have great damage and combat flexibility with magic as well. If the point buy is less then generous just stay kensai all the way and you can still be awesome.
Was just about to suggest this, then noticed I was ninja'd at the preview. As a magus you should always have a hand free for snapping turtle style, have access to good defensive spells ie: mage armor, shield, blur, mirror image, displacement. They have class features to get Dex to damage, though Dervish Dance might still be the better option. Plus, you should still be able to perform admirably in combat because of spell combat/spellstrike. Kensai are the best unarmored combatants I've ever seen, and you don't need to multiclass in 3 or 4 different classes to do it, you can stick with magus for the whole build and it works just fine.
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I've been tossing around a few ideas within my group as well as others about a highly survivable character who doesn't wear armor.
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Your build assumes you are not locked down by spells or otherwise unable to act.
If so, why not try the hp tanking Paladin?
Race - Tiefling
Feats:
- Fey Foundling - heal an additional 2 points per healing die rolled
- Greater Mercy - heal 1d6 more if no mercy is applied.
Favored class - Paladin Tiefling - +1 hp healed when lay on hand on self.
Items -
Inheritor's Light - Any cure spells or lay on hands effects used to heal the wielder of this blade heal an additional 1 point of damage per die, up to the effect’s normal maximum healing amount.
Bracers of the Merciful Knight - When worn by a paladin, he is considered four levels higher for the purposes of determining the uses per day and healing provided by his lay on hands class feature.
With this setup at lv 6 you can heal 6d6 + 24hp each turn.
You don't have to care about AC, as you can simply out heal any damage most enemies can deal you in 1 turn.
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Flowing Monk gains Flowing Dodge, which is a nice bump to your AC if you're facing multiple opponents.
Iron Monk (Sacred Mnt. Monk) gains Iron Limb Defense at 5th, so no need to take Snapping Turtle style.
Monk's Robes will boost your AC as well as your unarmed attacks.
Crane Style is really good, as you've noted.
Really, I don't see why you want to dip Rogue. Ki powers can be the magic you're wanting to access for flavor, with more versatility than the 1 choice you'd take via Rogue.
The celestial obedience feat for Arshea, the empyreal lord of sexuality would give you Charisma to AC as the second boon, but only while you wear "revealing clothing" ;)
22 AC isn't spectacular for level 6, and you're giving up basically all of your ability to do damage in return. You'd get more out of Urban Barbarian than Rogue, IMO. The ability to never get caught flat-footed is pretty nice for a dex-based character. You can mix it with Monk by taking a trait.
To be fair that's 0 equipment an no Dex/Wis added in.
It would be closer to 28 if we assume the character did a
10, 16, 13, 11, 14, 7 spread assuming I used human bonus for +2 wisdom.
drop the str to 7 and bump dex by 1 and boost it by 1 more with the level 4 bonus and make it 29.
I was just giving a base before any stats were added in, which by level 6 i'd hope my character would have a ring/amulet/headband/belt to boost it further.
So if we assume they have a +2 headband/belt, a +1 necklace/ring it would be closer to 33.
A blocking weapon might be superior to spending a feat on turtle clutch. Also Major magic for mage armor seems like a waste as you can just UMD a wand. Anyways earliest you were gonna get major magic is level 6 by that time you can prolly get your wand activated fairly reliably.
Why would i need level 6? Rogue talent and 2nd/4th. I can end it at level 3 if i wanted and burn a feat on extra rogue talent to get it early while still getting my weapon finesse. I don't see any level requirement for it on the unchained or regular rogue, just a intelligence score requirement.
I could do a blocking weapon, though if i want to do the finesse route i'd be likely using a light blocking weapon.
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As for the paladin/warpriest suggestions I don't want to play a divine character due to general not wanting to roleplay that.
The celestial obedience feat for Arshea, the empyreal lord of sexuality would give you Charisma to AC as the second boon, but only while you wear "revealing clothing" ;)
That requires 16 hit dice which has the obvious problem of not being an early choice.
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Also the damage loss with this wouldn't be that horrible as I would still have access to sneak attack as well as the focus of the character trying to stack dex primarily would add to defense/hit/and damage.
Worst case scenario the character if i did Monk 2/Unchained Rogue 18 i'd be out 1d6 sneak attack damage at worst then.
I guess i could always drop iron mountain monk and do uncahined monk with master of many styles as that archetype is still compatible and then chose deer horn knife so i can still flurry and have proficiency with it as its an exotic light blocking monk weapon.
If i want to increase the damage further i could in theory take the scout archetype of rogue, take pummeling style instead of snapping turtle and later get pummeling charge so charged full round attack sneak attack, though to do that i'd need to drop the blocking weapon as i believe pummeling doesn't allow anything but unarmed weapons.
(i'm mildly just responding to everything at once as i posted this late last night and haven't checked back until now).
I suggest shield over mage armor.
Potion of mage armor is 50gp and by the time you reach rogue levels you can afford it or a wand of mage armor.
This way you get +8 AC and immunity to magic missile.
Also if not PFS think about Vivisection alchemist. More tricks than a rogue IMO.
This is good advice.
I suggest shield over mage armor.
Potion of mage armor is 50gp and by the time you reach rogue levels you can afford it or a wand of mage armor.
This way you get +8 AC and immunity to magic missile.
Also if not PFS think about Vivisection alchemist. More tricks than a rogue IMO.
That could work. And if i ever want to drop money on it I can substitute the mage armor for bracers of armor for a more permanent solution (as well as requiring less setup time) considering the two don't stack. I had forgot about the shield spell partially hence why i was also assuming my character wouldn't be employing items like bracers of armor ever.
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That could work. And if i ever want to drop money on it I can substitute the mage armor for bracers of armor for a more permanent solution (as well as requiring less setup time) considering the two don't stack. I had forgot about the shield spell partially hence why i was also assuming my character wouldn't be employing items like bracers of armor ever.I suggest shield over mage armor.
Potion of mage armor is 50gp and by the time you reach rogue levels you can afford it or a wand of mage armor.
This way you get +8 AC and immunity to magic missile.
Also if not PFS think about Vivisection alchemist. More tricks than a rogue IMO.
Changing over to bracers probably isn't worth it until level 13-15ish, when +5 bracers become relatively cheap. Even with a wand - a 1hr duration means that the chances you won't have it up before combat will happen about as often as a full plate combatant out of their heavy armor. Basically just when caught sleeping etc.
Of note - the Shield spell doesn't stack with Snapping Turtle.
And frankly - I wouldn't recommend fighting defensively with any consistency. Your AC will already likely be the highest in the party - you also need to actually deal some damage to contribute. (And this is speaking as a guy whose builds tend to lean far more defensive than most.)
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A Kata Master Monk crossed with one level of Crusader of Sarenrae can use their full dex bonus with a strong and growing wisdom ac, flurry a dex-to-damage scimitar with Crusader's Flurry by 5, and have full Crane Style by 9. They can also cast Barkskin on themselves, and use Parry and Riposte.
An Ancient Elven Lorekeeper Oracle with one of the mysteries that grants a magical "armor" - like Wind for Air Barrier - can cross the Elven favored class bonus with it to get a massively scaling, dex-friendly "armor" that isn't armor; they can also pick up not only Shield but Mirror Image, which takes 'tanky' to a whole other level. Dex-to-Damage is easy with elven rapier access even if you don't multiclass.
A (Mostly)Shaman/ Kata Master of Many Styles Monk can use Speaker for the Past to pick up Spirit Shield, cross it with wisdom AC, grab Crane Style, and use the Lore Spirit to grab Mirror Image.
That could work. And if i ever want to drop money on it I can substitute the mage armor for bracers of armor for a more permanent solution (as well as requiring less setup time) considering the two don't stack. I had forgot about the shield spell partially hence why i was also assuming my character wouldn't be employing items like bracers of armor ever.I suggest shield over mage armor.
Potion of mage armor is 50gp and by the time you reach rogue levels you can afford it or a wand of mage armor.
This way you get +8 AC and immunity to magic missile.
Also if not PFS think about Vivisection alchemist. More tricks than a rogue IMO.
Changing over to bracers probably isn't worth it until level 13-15ish, when +5 bracers become relatively cheap. Even with a wand - a 1hr duration means that the chances you won't have it up before combat will happen about as often as a full plate combatant out of their heavy armor. Basically just when caught sleeping etc.
Of note - the Shield spell doesn't stack with Snapping Turtle.
And frankly - I wouldn't recommend fighting defensively with any consistency. Your AC will already likely be the highest in the party - you also need to actually deal some damage to contribute. (And this is speaking as a guy whose builds tend to lean far more defensive than most.)
Snapping turtle would be dropped if i went that route and probably replaced with snake for AoO-geddon or pummeling if i wanted to punch stuff instead. I only had snapping turtle as i forgot about the shield spell.
Mage armor would definitely be a item-based bonus for awhile until i could get at least +4 for that guaranteed bonus.
With crane style and being able to skip requirements (as long as i have crane style i could skip all the way to crane riposte and get crane wing later). Fighting defensively would just be a -1 penalty then meaning it wouldn't be that bad of a penalty overall.
A Kata Master Monk crossed with one level of Crusader of Sarenrae can use their full dex bonus with a strong and growing wisdom ac, flurry a dex-to-damage scimitar with Crusader's Flurry by 5, and have full Crane Style by 9. They can also cast Barkskin on themselves, and use Parry and Riposte.
An Ancient Elven Lorekeeper Oracle with one of the mysteries that grants a magical "armor" - like Wind for Air Barrier - can cross the Elven favored class bonus with it to get a massively scaling, dex-friendly "armor" that isn't armor; they can also pick up not only Shield but Mirror Image, which takes 'tanky' to a whole other level. Dex-to-Damage is easy with elven rapier access even if you don't multiclass.
A (Mostly)Shaman/ Kata Master of Many Styles Monk can use Speaker for the Past to pick up Spirit Shield, cross it with wisdom AC, grab Crane Style, and use the Lore Spirit to grab Mirror Image.
Really the only reason i'm looking at minor/major magic rogue talents for getting shield and such is just because its an extra class feature to utilize as if the whole thing is around no armor Dex so Dex to damage + finesse would be nice as opposed to going with something that is just all spells/spellcasting.
I would prefer to throw in daring champion cavalier archetype because precise strike + challenge damage fun. But i feel like that would be more annoying to pull off feat-wise as i would need slashing grace/fencing grace on top of all of the style feats which would slow progression of defense while rogue would save me a feat as well as giving me the access to the spell via the rogue talent.
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I'd expect progression to go roughly as follows:
Assuming i go human:
Level 1: Monk
Human Bonus Feat: Dodge
1st level feat: Crane Style
1st level bonus style feat: Crane Riposte (skip to this and immediately get fighting defensively at -1)
Level 2-5 Rogue:
Minor Magic/Major magic
Level 3 feat: Weapon focus
Level 5 feat: Snake Style
Level 6: monk
2nd level monk bonus feat: Snake Fang(skip snake sidewind and just get AoO when anyone misses you as well as an immediate action attack if that hits).
This way i could turn my defense into a offensive ability by punching with my free hand then eventually at level 11 being able to get dex to damage with the fist as well.
Alternatively i could ignore snake style and either ignore the 2nd level in monk or use it to get crane wing.
Note that Snake Style is potentially rather limited by the fact that your unarmed strike isn't getting dex-to-damage, isn't going to have any enhancement, and can't trigger on the same miss as Crane Riposte since you can't provoke two AoO's off of one trigger even if you have more than one AoO. For that matter, without Combat Reflexes you won't get more than one AoO a round regardless. You're much better off finishing Crane up.
Another very nice defensive option for the Rogue is Ninja Trick: Shadow Clone. It's debatable whether it improves beyond 1d4 Mirror Image with casting level, but even if it's 'only' 1d4 Mirror Image it's pretty impressive.
Unchained Rogue apparently can't take Ki Pool, but if you're already multiclassing into Master of Many Styles, then 3 levels of Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles will get you a pool, and 4 levels of it will get you a fairly big one - along with the option of picking up Qinggong Barkskin (use Magical Knack: Monk to get a 1 hour +4AC Barkskin for 1 ki).
Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick is also fantastic, but it's not exactly 'tanky' and it burns through ki fast. Still, being able to drop a charge or full attack on something and then just vanish - only to come back again with a sneak attack on your next turn - is pretty unreal.
Oh, and Amateur Swashbuckler and one feat of Extra Panache will allow Parry and Riposte fun, and that will stack with Crane Riposte...
If you're going to be fighting defensively a lot, consider taking the Threatening Defender trait.
That does combat expertise not fighting defensively.
Note that Snake Style is potentially rather limited by the fact that your unarmed strike isn't getting dex-to-damage, isn't going to have any enhancement, and can't trigger on the same miss as Crane Riposte since you can't provoke two AoO's off of one trigger even if you have more than one AoO. For that matter, without Combat Reflexes you won't get more than one AoO a round regardless. You're much better off finishing Crane up.
Another very nice defensive option for the Rogue is Ninja Trick: Shadow Clone. It's debatable whether it improves beyond 1d4 Mirror Image with casting level, but even if it's 'only' 1d4 Mirror Image it's pretty impressive.
Unchained Rogue apparently can't take Ki Pool, but if you're already multiclassing into Master of Many Styles, then 3 levels of Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles will get you a pool, and 4 levels of it will get you a fairly big one - along with the option of picking up Qinggong Barkskin (use Magical Knack: Monk to get a 1 hour +4AC Barkskin for 1 ki).
Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick is also fantastic, but it's not exactly 'tanky' and it burns through ki fast. Still, being able to drop a charge or full attack on something and then just vanish - only to come back again with a sneak attack on your next turn - is pretty unreal.
Oh, and Amateur Swashbuckler and one feat of Extra Panache will allow Parry and Riposte fun, and that will stack with Crane Riposte...
Definitely an interesting idea. I like the mirror image idea as it would make the ninja trick portion less useless.
I could get dex to damage with the unarmed strike but it would basically be waiting until 11th level when i get to chose a 2nd skill via monk. If i did the barkskin thing a amulet would be usable instead of the standard natural armor amulet in that slot allowing me to pump that.
In theory a Blade of the Sword Saint with effortless lace would in theory be valid in that hand as it makes that hand count as unarmed and free if you're a monk (though if it involved catching things you just don't do that part).
That said I'll probably skip snake style and just cheeze my way into the crane stuff.
So i guess the next big question is then we have about 6 levels here roughly thought out. Would it be a good idea to just zoom through the rest of rogue? Or throw on some other class to boost the offensive or defensive capabilities of this more?
Considering that your Shield 'spell' bases both duration and uses/day on Rogue levels, I'd say Rogue is the 'main' class here. A fourth level of Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles gets way more ki, Barkskin, and a point of bonus Monk AC, so it's probably worth grabbing.
Beyond that, the one other multiclass option I would consider would be one level of Urban Barbarian. Controlled Rage will improve your attack, damage and AC without causing any problems. The Extra Rage feat is generous with rage rounds per day, so with a feat or two you've got plenty of rage when you need it. A Furious weapon is extremely handy.
You don't need Rogue dips or Weapon Finesse
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sctw?Tank-Monk-for-Review-Unchained#17
Ps;: I ended up discarding the DR angle for early Power Attack and Dimensional Dervish.
BTW, on the previous build, there is the option of also picking up Combat Expertise to get more DR or AC at the expense of terrible accuracy.
I chose not to go for that so I didn't jeopardise my output and became a large enough threat to get focused.
Considering that your Shield 'spell' bases both duration and uses/day on Rogue levels, I'd say Rogue is the 'main' class here. A fourth level of Ki Mystic Master of Many Styles gets way more ki, Barkskin, and a point of bonus Monk AC, so it's probably worth grabbing.
Beyond that, the one other multiclass option I would consider would be one level of Urban Barbarian. Controlled Rage will improve your attack, damage and AC without causing any problems. The Extra Rage feat is generous with rage rounds per day, so with a feat or two you've got plenty of rage when you need it. A Furious weapon is extremely handy.
I was thinking about urban barbarian for the dex raging, go unchained and then pick up either one of the damaging stances or guarded stance or maybe both and just swap them as needed.
I'd need to burn a trait on adoptive and get that aasamir trait that lets me be true neutral or neutral good as a monk.
You don't need Rogue dips or Weapon Finesse
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sctw?Tank-Monk-for-Review-Unchained#17
Ps;: I ended up discarding the DR angle for early Power Attack and Dimensional Dervish.
Its doable i'm just not a fan of spreading across 3 stats like that. That said it doesn't look too bad, i just like doing weapon finesse just because i like making my primary defensive stat my primary attack/damage stat making a chunk of my defensive strides help me damage-wise as well.
I had considered going deeper into monk for furious defense but i'm actually liking the idea of just getting a ninja trick and using the ki pool on shadow clone so i can cast mirror image here and there for that little added miss chance for defense.
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I was thinking about urban barbarian for the dex raging, go unchained and then pick up either one of the damaging stances or guarded stance or maybe both and just swap them as needed.
I'd need to burn a trait on adoptive and get that aasamir trait that lets me be true neutral or neutral good as a monk.
Well, since the intent is to leave Monk behind after a point, you can always just roleplay a shift away from lawful. There's no huge rush to grab the level, so it's possible to do it 'organically'.
There comes a point where the diminishing returns of "one more point of AC" needs to be addressed. At a certain amount, it's better to use alternate means of defense such as DR and/or miss chance (ie. concealment). Getting a 20% miss chance on you is equivalent to 25% more than your current AC. Even a 5% miss chance is equivalent to about 5.3% more AC. It's far harder to overcome miss chance than it is to overcome AC.
Mathematically speaking, the higher your AC is the more effective an extra point is relative to your chance of being hit.
If your AC is high enough that you're hit only 25% of the time, then adding one more point of AC means that you're hit only 20% of the time. Therefore, that one point of AC means you're getting hit 20% less often than you were without it (5/25 = 20%), which is roughly equivalent to picking up a 20% miss effect like Blur (technically one also has to deal with the small "-(x+y)" side of the double roll, but whatever, it's pretty close).
Be small.
Halfling would be very humorous. +1 AC for being small, dex bonus, attack bonus. Strength and damage dice size penalty but humorously enough we're basically shooting for alot of static damage the way the dex is being stacked so a slightly smaller dice isn't the world's biggest loss.
That said going halfling with the urban barbraian levels would be slowly going down the path of making Joe Pesci, which is quite humorous.
That said human has the advantage of the bonus feat which allows alot of stuff with the style feats to fall in place fairly early.
Take 1 level in Alchemist, and you can take a Mutagen.
At that point mutagen fighter archetype would be better. 1 Bonus fighter feat along with getting mutagen making.
The Horizon Walker Prestige Class has ways of getting Damage Reduction. So does Living Monolith.
Taking urban barbarian far enough would give me it as well. though i'll check out those classes.
Taking urban barbarian far enough would give me it as well. though i'll check out those classes.
The Horizon Walker Prestige Class has ways of getting Damage Reduction. So does Living Monolith.
Ok looking at Horizon walker the DR is 1/Adamantine or 2/Adamantine with another. Which has the downside that its ignored if anything is +4 or higher, though shouldn't have a huge amount of problems for most enemies. Some of the stuff looks fun, but for a prestige class i feel like i'd miss out on alot of stuff going with it.
Living monolith has some interesting stuff though alot of it seems to be geared around becoming large which would counteract alot of this character (less dex, less AC, less attack).
Overall these are both kind of underwhelming prestige classes considering i could go further in one of the other classes and gain similar stuff as well as other useful thing (like barbarian rage powers if i took barbarian far enough to get DR)
I could go unchained barbarian, pick up Urban Barbarian and Invulnerable rager and get DR = to 1/2 my barbarian level.
Just to clarify here - you're interested in using Rogue beyond just a way to get the spell-like Shield ability and the dex-to-damage stuff, right? Because just having a Swashbuckler or Monk picking up their class-based bonus AC, or a specialized Fighter channeling their extra ab into Combat Expertise, or all sorts of other things like that can easily end up as useful as Shield. Dex-to-damage is pretty easy to get now.
Just to clarify here - you're interested in using Rogue beyond just a way to get the spell-like Shield ability and the dex-to-damage stuff, right? Because just having a Swashbuckler or Monk picking up their class-based bonus AC, or a specialized Fighter channeling their extra ab into Combat Expertise, or all sorts of other things like that can easily end up as useful as Shield. Dex-to-damage is pretty easy to get now.
Yeah i'm interested in rogue beyond that. I was simply pointing out in the previous post if i took a barbarian level or 2 i'd be better off sticking with it for stacking DR/- than going with a prestige class.
I'm not 100% sure how far i want to take rogue but I like their silly amount of skill points, sneak attack, and the fact that the finesse+dex to damage saves me alot of feats or at least in some cases saves me from having to wait for it.
That said invulnerable rager wouldn't be a horrible archetype to mix with urban barbarian because i'd want to grab a rage power stance on top of it and why not get DR 1/- while i'm at it, and if i really needed to grab more levels in barbarian instead of rogue the value only goes up.
Also the thought of mixing mutagen fighter or alchemist in for mutagens would be quite humorous, just a mishmash of temporary bonuses of various types, but i think this 3 class mix is probably as far as i should probably take this any more and i'll likely overdo it and potentially miss out on even more class features.
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A friend of mine suggested a guideline that works pretty well. If you are in melee all the time, you want an AC of 20+level. If you are mid range, sometimes in melee, aim for 15+level. If you hide in the back and rely on other means of defense (IE mirror image) 10+level.
These numbers are pretty easy to maintain, getting higher means a significant focus of resources to AC (at the detriment of other things). At 20+level AC, at low levels enemies are going to have to roll a 20 to hit you. By level 10 and up their primary attack will have about a 50% chance of hitting, their secondarys drop to 25%.
It is possible to get higher than 20+level, but generally not worth it. When you allocate too many resources to defense you will find yourself falling short in other areas. I frequently see PCs who are all look at me I'm awesome tank, my AC is 40 at level 10... and I have a +10 to hit and do 1d8+5. So every monster just ignores them cause they can't hit and when they do, do no damage.
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You didn't take into consideration that attack bonus scales faster than AC bonus.
I wasn't considering the context because it wasn't relevant to my point, which is simply that mathematically, each additional point of AC gained reduces average damage by a larger proportion than the last; while the effect is minimal with a relatively low AC, AC is an increasing return rather than a diminishing one.
Even just picking up 2AC to go from a 50% miss chance to a 60% miss chance means a 20% reduction in incoming damage (10%/50%=20%), while Blur would be 50%+20%-(50%x20%)=60% miss chance, which amounts to the same thing.
If you get one more point of AC, your opponents likely also have at least one more point of attack, making it a wash, and maybe even 2 more points of attack meaning you're choosing between going from 25% to 35% chance to be hit, or a 25% to a 30% chance. The opportunity cost of getting that 1 point of AC may be put to better use somewhere else.
Where exactly your AC sits compared to opponent AB, and whether it's more useful to pick up AC or not, are completely different questions based on an endless number of hypotheticals that don't really lend themselves to making general statements. All I'm pointing out is that more AC is very good if you already have good AC.
You didn't take into consideration that attack bonus scales faster than AC bonus.I wasn't considering the context because it wasn't relevant to my point, which is simply that mathematically, each additional point of AC gained reduces average damage by a larger proportion than the last; while the effect is minimal with a relatively low AC, AC is an increasing return rather than a diminishing one.
Even just picking up 2AC to go from a 50% miss chance to a 60% miss chance means a 20% reduction in incoming damage (10%/50%=20%), while Blur would be 50%+20%-(50%x20%)=60% miss chance, which amounts to the same thing.
If you get one more point of AC, your opponents likely also have at least one more point of attack, making it a wash, and maybe even 2 more points of attack meaning you're choosing between going from 25% to 35% chance to be hit, or a 25% to a 30% chance. The opportunity cost of getting that 1 point of AC may be put to better use somewhere else.Where exactly your AC sits compared to opponent AB, and whether it's more useful to pick up AC or not, are completely different questions based on an endless number of hypotheticals that don't really lend themselves to making general statements. All I'm pointing out is that more AC is very good if you already have good AC.
Yeah i've found once you reach a certain point of AC more is just better. I had a fighter in my group who had hyper-focused into his AC so hard he was sitting at about 34 AC while the rest of the group had 24-26 AC, which for the average appropriately leveled enemy required some major bonuses to hit. Eventually i started beefing up enemies just to ensure the fighter would actually get hit.
GM meta-gaming is not okay. Do you also jack up the reflex saves against the fireball casting sorcerer? Or will saves against the enchanter? Your fighter dedicated his resources to doing something awesome; don't take it away...Yeah i've found once you reach a certain point of AC more is just better. I had a fighter in my group who had hyper-focused into his AC so hard he was sitting at about 34 AC while the rest of the group had 24-26 AC, which for the average appropriately leveled enemy required some major bonuses to hit. Eventually i started beefing up enemies just to ensure the fighter would actually get hit.You didn't take into consideration that attack bonus scales faster than AC bonus.I wasn't considering the context because it wasn't relevant to my point, which is simply that mathematically, each additional point of AC gained reduces average damage by a larger proportion than the last; while the effect is minimal with a relatively low AC, AC is an increasing return rather than a diminishing one.
Even just picking up 2AC to go from a 50% miss chance to a 60% miss chance means a 20% reduction in incoming damage (10%/50%=20%), while Blur would be 50%+20%-(50%x20%)=60% miss chance, which amounts to the same thing.
If you get one more point of AC, your opponents likely also have at least one more point of attack, making it a wash, and maybe even 2 more points of attack meaning you're choosing between going from 25% to 35% chance to be hit, or a 25% to a 30% chance. The opportunity cost of getting that 1 point of AC may be put to better use somewhere else.Where exactly your AC sits compared to opponent AB, and whether it's more useful to pick up AC or not, are completely different questions based on an endless number of hypotheticals that don't really lend themselves to making general statements. All I'm pointing out is that more AC is very good if you already have good AC.
Settle down there. Its not like this happened every encounter. But once in awhile he was going to get some use out of that DR/- at least because its not like it works for spells.
You act like i should leave him alone and let him be a god in a corner. Some encounters the enemies can hit him, some encounters the enemies target his touch AC, others he's just sits there wondering why the rest of his squishy party is dying because he's feeling just fine. I run encounters where every character has a chance to be MVP either through luck, strategy, or they just happen to be perfectly built for those enemies.
By that terms of logic allowing an encounter to be considered challenging is being bad because by that logic I would be evil to target his weakest point as well because i'm not throwing nothing but monsters that can't hit his AC at him.
That's not the point and you know it.
There are plenty of ways of challenging a character without just giving the enemies numbers that cancel out the things he worked hard for.
I think the problem here is everyone is making a lot of assumptions here. Not to mention my players in my group (the tank included) found the kneejerk reaction claiming GM metagaming to be humorous.
My group is full of super highly specialized characters that have major weaknesses to complement their major strengths. To make encounters challenging I simply utilize higher level monsters, or different kinds of enemies that play to the strengths of various characters.
That and not to mention, the fighter has enough health as well as being an orc with all of his favored class bonuses in it (aka +2 to his CON when determining when he dies). So end of the day even if they manage to get past his armor (which only occurs if i send some beefy higher level monsters after them).
So don't worry, if they hit his AC he's far from neutered, he's managed to reach -1 HP once and that was only in a scenario where there was a number of enemies with fire auras just slowly eating away at him over rounds. The guy is a brick wall from hell having ridiculous AC, ridiculous health, and being an armor master fighter his DR on top of it all makes him pretty godly in non-caster scenarios.
It's not metagaming to have the boss monster analyze character capabilities and tactics and adjust his accordingly.
This x 100..... in fact I would say without hesitation that if you're not doing it, youre a bad DM
"Adapt or die $%^&*(!"
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I think the problem here is everyone is making a lot of assumptions here.
That's always the problem everywhere. I would assume so anyhow.
It's not metagaming to have the boss monster analyze character capabilities and tactics and adjust his accordingly.
This x 100..... in fact I would say without hesitation that if you're not doing it, youre a bad DM
"Adapt or die $%^&*(!"
So this only happens with characters that have seen the PCs operate for extensive periods of time? Random things that have no idea about the PCs before encountering them aren't built specifically to counter them, right?
Eventually i started beefing up enemies just to ensure the fighter would actually get hit.
Because that's not what this quote implies. It implies that they are making creatures more powerful in a highly specific way with no in-setting justification. If @ranmyaku meant that they are changing boss tactics based on the boss's knowledge of the PCs then that is a whole different kettle of fish. His post didn't communicate that. It communicated that he was boosting creatures in a way specifically to counter PCs when those creatures should have no reason to be built or play in that way according to the creature's knowledge. That would be textbook metagaming.
So this only happens with characters that have seen the PCs operate for extensive periods of time? Random things that have no idea about the PCs before encountering them aren't built specifically to counter them, right?I don't know! I am not one of this GM's players! That's my point: we should know more about what's going on in ranmyaku262's campaign before we cast aspersions about her reffing style!
Heroes take dumps, have board game nights, and pay their bills in between comic book issues, usually not within them. Superman probably still catches bank robbers even though in the comic books he focuses on supervillains, space monsters, and huge natural disasters. That's because a bunch of dumb punk bank robbers who think they can do that in Metropolis don't make a good story.
If my characters were no longer challenged by 3,782 orcs, I probably wouldn't bother sending orc armies after them anymore, not because I'm magically making sure it never happens. I stipulate that it DOES happen, it's that just sundry non-challenging encounters that happen randomly in the lives of player characters' aren't worth the personal attention of players and GMs, and also not worth rewarding experience for. It's the challenging and interesting encounters that we role play through.
Maybe.
Yeah, honestly i'm kinda lazy when it comes to designing monsters. I open up a monster book, find something with alot of interesting abilities and re-flavor it to something that would make more sense setting-wise.
So i'm not individually fine tuning the monsters to be TPK machines. That said I am at least picking out something high enough level to be dangerous. My players when i was doing perfectly to CR encounters were getting bored because the average encounter is fairly easy, as a result they started getting kind of bored with the average encounter.
So i started throwing CR+3 or CR+5 encounters at them just because the way the campaign runs the party when they're not in a dungeon gets alot of downtime so generally they can get healed up and to 100% before the next encounter so my goal is to at least get the party to use up some of their daily resources to keep the fights seeming halfway challenging or in the rare instance being difficult.
So from there i usually design the encounter around allowing other players a chance to have their moment. Either by giving something with touch attacks that the monk can focus, something with high touch AC so the melee have a chance at it rather than just the gunslinger. Something with super high AC but low touch so the gunslinger/spellcaster have a go. Or just something that can slowly chip away at their health so the melee frontline has to focus even more on keeping them away from the squishy back row.
Generally it works out, have been running the campaign for almost a year and 1/2 and no one has had any problems/complaints. Heck the current party has not had any deaths yet so its not like the encounters are super deadly and debilitating for the party, that said the boss encounters are tweaked in difficulty just enough to ensure they feel like they're taking a great risk fighting it, but even then it just makes them more excited when they beat it.