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JDLPF wrote:

Scaled Fist Monk 1 adds Charisma to your AC.

Sensei Monk 2 adds Charisma to attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

Technically the two can't be taken together, since Scaled Fist modifies the bonus feat list and Sensei replaces it, but if your GM is lenient you might be able to make it work.

Sensei also gives you a mini-bard with Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage too.

Yeah, scaled fist would be helpful, though currently its Chaotic Evil so a bit of an issue for taking monk levels.

SanderJK wrote:

A fun thing to do would be to Atone it to Lawful Good, and then turn it into a Sacred Shield Paladin

Sacred Shield turns smite evil into an untyped 50% damage reduction bonus if the smitten enemy hits someone close to the paladin that isn't the paladin itself, a huge combat buff.
In effect, the succubus is taking the hits for you to atone for all it past misdeeds. They get their Cha to AC, get to weird fullplate and heavy shields, which should mean AC through the roof.

Meanwhile you get their shield bonus to your AC too.

Because it is a paladin, it also get +Cha to saves which is neat.

With the bracers item whose name I forget you can do it 3x/day, which should be plenty.

Yeah, wouldn't make much sense though as we're a an almost entirely evil party.

Mr. Bonkers wrote:

Although it is a bit of an obscure rule, Undead Barbarians are a thing. Back in the early days of PFS, developers unloaded Ghoul/Ghast Barbarians, Skeletal Champion Barbarians, and more at the PFS players. When these players started to cry foul on this, the developers eventually created a rule, which can be found in a stat block of the Vampire Savage published in the Monster Codex:

Vampire Savage wrote:
Undead Barbarian: An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature’s Charisma instead.

So, undead seem to be able to go into rage, apparently gaining this ability in the process. So an Vampire Bloodrager should be possible. Bard on the other hand is a bit less useful (in case of trying to self-buff), as Inspire Courage is a Mind-affecting effect.

I'll check with my GM to see if that might work

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
ranmyaku262 wrote:

And the final issue is if i'm almost 100% certain this thing will never actually land a hit because we're generally up against things with 44+ ACs, and this won't have nearly enough wealth to even think about closing that gap.

I think with 5 levels of antipaladin and weapon finesse (because it just gets that for being a succubus) i managed to reach a +18 to hit. and NPC wealth (considering this is 27k gp vs the 315k gp wealth between it and a real character).
You're supposed to shell out some of your own gold to help equip your cohort, certainly as you level up (since they don't get their own share of treasure) but also even when you acquire them. Buy your succubus some nice things, she deserves them!

Totally want to do that, unfortunately we just ran into a mage's disjuction trap that obliterated half our party's wealth, so most of our gold is going towards damage control.


Yeah, those classes would help. Antipaladin seemed like the best choice.

As to everyone suggesting bloodrager/skald, its undead so unfortunately it is immune to all morale effects, so the creature itself couldn't benefit.

Honestly my biggest problem is its only getting 5 levels so spellcasting is generally not going to help much either.

And the final issue is if i'm almost 100% certain this thing will never actually land a hit because we're generally up against things with 44+ ACs, and this won't have nearly enough wealth to even think about closing that gap.
I think with 5 levels of antipaladin and weapon finesse (because it just gets that for being a succubus) i managed to reach a +18 to hit. and NPC wealth (considering this is 27k gp vs the 315k gp wealth between it and a real character).

I thought vaguely about the Overwhelming Soul kineticist to maybe hit touch ACs, thought it wouldn't be very good at it, but as undead can't accept burn normal kineticist archetypes are out so this is the only one that still gives something for reducing burn costs in place of completely losing the ability to take burn.


VRMH wrote:
Bard. No class does "support" like a Bard. It wouldn't even require any special Archetypes or Feats.

As i said the GM wants this thing to be more combat oriented and less support, so unfortunately its not a great option in that aspect.


In a campaign i'm currently in a large portion of the party has monstrous cohorts. Being one of the few people who didn't grab leadership (even though i'm one of the few with a charisma focus), i finally decided to grab it, and during a side adventure I gained a cohort who was a Vampire Succubus.

While thats pretty good our party is level 16 right now, and kind of a bunch of horrible overpowered monsters ourselves.

The GM's rules for this is a little custom but as it can be a level 14 cohort the number of class levels i can give it is 14-CR(9).

So i can give it 5 levels of my choice. The DM would prefer i kept within the theme of it making it a "Charismatic Warrior type" as the NPC is the type to like to fight. Its put me in a bit of a situation for this one as all the other cohorts in the party are either support....or cowards so they have pretty good ways of not really participating directly in the heat of combat.

So this thing is going to be really durable as its an undead with a 31 charisma, so its going to have a really good HP pool.
Otherwise its stats are 19, 21, 10, 20, 16, 31 (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha).

So the problem comes in here, I know the best option would be to make it some sort of support option, but to acheive this "charismatic warrior" type i would have to make it more combat oriented than support, so i need to make these 5 levels count.

The problem is I'm a multiclassesed monstrosity of a sorcerer/dragon disciple/ect.. who has a +32 to hit and a 55 AC....and i'm about lower-middle in terms of to-hit (though the highest ac by about 2 points) compared to the rest of the party.

So i have to figure out how to make this cohort actually participate in combat and still be able to actually hit anything.

So here's a few things I've figured out so far:
1. It's going to to have some durability, but it would probably be best in the back row.
2. It has spell-likes and thats probably the most spellcasting it'll want to do as its not going to be able to reach beyond level 2 spells.
3. It would probably be best against touch AC, but the GM currently doesn't have guns in our setting so that reduces the possibilities.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, as i'm at a bit of a loss how to really optimize on this one.


I was curious how sneak attack specifically worked with class abilities that modify it.

For example the sniper archetype for slayer if the target is "completely unaware" you ignore the 30ft range restriction on your sneak attack.

So two questions.

1. If i dip for that, then put the rest of the levels in rogue/ninja/ect.. to gain sneak attack would those also benefit from this ability? I ask as i know the sources stack, but i wasn't certain if it still specified sources (aka only dice from slayer would interact with it). I assumed it would work as it doesn't specify, but I wanted to be certain.

2. Not entirely related to the original question, but is "completely unaware" only if you attack them before the spot you, or does the sniping rule/being invisible/ect... allow you to stay within that condition after the first attack. Or are they aware of your presence at that point, just not your location?


Backlash3906 wrote:

Siege Gunner combines well with Investigator, via a one-level dip granting Int-based Grit, and also lets you bypass the Weapon Training requirement of Impressive Grit.

Maverick (Gunslinger) stacks with Mysterious Stranger and gives some interesting bonuses to Intimidate.

Siege Gunner would be nice but my main problems with it over musket master is that you lose the ability to achieve free action reloading with firearms (i guess its not a huge deal getting it down to a move action as the whole thing is around making 1 attack a round). But losing free rapid reload and losing the 4th level feat for what is basically a useless feat isn't great.

Torbyne wrote:

Is there any chance your GM would let you get the Inspired enchantment on your firearm? That would be a very big push to go that route, that enchantment is FANTASTIC.

Another idea will your GM let you mix in Eldritch Archer Magus? Musket Master 5/Eldritch Archer X would get you a good musket base and level/D6 damage spells tacked onto your bullets. Snowball bullets all day, every day.

Maybe? If not i'm not completely opposed to doing a hand crossbow build and changing this to bolt ace (as the DM is now starting to change his mind on firearms so the build might need to adjust).

Eldritch Archer magus could be fun. Though i wonder if spellslinger wouldn't be a bad idea to dip either. Not sure if the DM would let the arcane gun stack with ranged spellstrike (as both use the wording of "casing through the weapon"). You couldn't stack the attack roll bonus but possibly if the spell has both a save and an attack roll it could be a nice way to make it harder to save against.

Red Griffyn wrote:
Also there is a trait (roving something?) to ad +5 to your range increments which is useful for guns. You could grab Magical Knack (Mesmerist) to give you full caster level for your mesmerist. Mesmerist also gets CHA to will saves so you can dump your WIS. Investigators are a lot of fun as well, but I feel like you require more investment feat wise to get INT to damage vs. one level dip in Gunslinger for CHA to damage (tied to your Grit pool).

Mysterious stranger could be fun though if i wanted it to work without limit thats 11 levels in gunslinger. That and you lose gun training 1 and once again not going musket master removes the free rapid reload as well never allowing you to progress past a move action to reload a 2h firearm unless once again i stay in it for 11 levels to get lightning reload.

Kirin style is a bit of a feat investment but its definitely more long term due to the rank requirements it has; so unless i mix in master of many styles monk i won't be able to have that immediately.


JDLPF wrote:

Also, another thing:

Is there something I'm missing here that lets you use these on a ranged weapon?

Edit: Nevermind, Weapon Focus and Ranged Study Feats. Two feat investment though, pretty steep cost.

I don't really consider Weapon Focus much of a cost though considering its a prerequisite for alot of things. That and having a decent to-hit will help if i'm outside of that first range increment.

The Mad Comrade wrote:

Dead shot can hit the equivalent of Improved Vital Strike out of the gate with either Rapid Shot or haste at 7th level. If both apply, it's the equivalent of Greater Vital Strike. The odds of missing most targets within your first range increment is ... minute.

After 7th level is a toss-up. Inquisitor 5th brings that dial-a-bane ability online at 12th level as a swift action for 5 rounds' use per day. named bullets via spells stack and you're able to use a wand of named bullet at your first level of Inquisitor (unless you swapped out spell casting via archetype). About the same time it is possible your party Witch or Wizard has snagged the spell with your character in mind.

As an aside, scatter guns (blunderbuss and especially dragon pistols) have some malicious applications given what you're saying about encounter distances. They also give you an anti-swarm weapon.

Stern Gaze dovetails nicely with many gunslingers' propensity for the Intimidate skill.

The problem with Dead shot is it doesn't work with rapid shot/haste. It says "but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus." And from what i could find it doesn't seem like it allows those feats to apply because its not a full round attack its simply a full-round action.


JDLPF wrote:
Have you also considered Inquisitor? Taking the Black Powder Inquisition gets you all your weapon proficiencies for firearms, you're getting spells like Longshot, True Strike or Invisibility for sniping, Judgements to boost attack rolls and damage rolls, at later levels you add Bane to your gun, and there's a bunch of ranged Teamwork feats that synergize really well with Solo Tactics.

I thought about that. The main issue is our DM doesn't let us go into fights pre-buffed much. So we never get alot of scenarios where longshot would help simply because those ranges would rarely come into play (alot of stuff takes place in short areas). Bare minimum for truke strike the far reaching sight is just as good (which its touch AC so even if i'm not in range its not a huge problem to hit for 75%+ of enemies).

Invisibility would be nice but it would be best for sneak attacking, which inquisitors don't get. Bane is nice, though technically if we know what we're after named bullet is a feat.

Inquisitor is nice, though inquisitor only would reach 4d6 with bane as opposed to 6d6 studied strike plus the at least +7 atk/dmg from studied combat assuming i do 15 levels investigator.

Variant multiclass magus could be an option because arcane pool + at 15th i could have the bane magus arcana to apply with arcane pool. Though the lvl 11 ability would be pointless, and i would be pretty feat starved.

It hurts the flavor of long range sniping a bit (especially if i don't have that scope) but i expect to be consistently uncomfortably close to everything just because of how things generally run.


Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:
I'd say go with 5 levels of gunslinger, this sounds like an awesome build by the way

Question, would impressive grit be worthwhile then? Dead shot seems like an interesting skill because its basically vital strike with the ability to multiply the final damage. Then again without the crit its just vital strike with a full-round rather than standard.


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I've been looking at doing some sort of firearm build around basically making 1 bit attack. Maybe it won't kill things immediately but it will definitely do some damage.
We're using early firearms meaning for touch AC attacks its only first range increment meaning most attacks are at 30-40ft.

The main idea was to use an investigator. I know there's slayer, rogue, ect.. type archetypes called sniper but i'm not a huge fan of sneak attack especially with ranged weapons. Investigator has the advantage of studied combat effectively letting them get a to-hit that by the end basically has you on par with a fighter with their weapon training bonus (just without that 4th iterative) and their studied strike is like sneak attack, but you can only do it once, but the advantage is that it isn't conditional like sneak attack, nor negated by fortification.

I'm a bit stuck on whats the best way to build it.

Right now these are the options i'm looking at.

1. Steel Hound Investigator for 20 levels to maximize on studied strike. Using a musket. Using Kirin style with combat stamina to get Int on all my damage. Then either vital strike and/or Impressive Grit for dead shot int mod times per day.

2. Sleuth investigator and from 3, 5, or 7 levels of gunslinger (musket master). 3 is the minimum to get free action reloading for 2h firearms with academical cartridges, and might as well just so there's no downtime for reloading. 5th to get dex to damage, which seems really good as i'll be dex/int heavy meaning kirin style + this with stamina would have me adding int and dex to every attack. And finally 7th gets me dead shot for real, which is just a slightly better vital strike, but i'll have a grit and luck pool to pull from that i can regen rather than having daily limits on (though my wis/cha won't be super high even if i'm at the minimum its 2 points, and bare minimum impressive grit will let me get the equivalent of signature deed with it without needing to be gunslinger 11).

I'm a bit torn because the 2nd option loses me anywhere from 2d6, to 3d6, 4d6 dice. The bonus to hit isn't as big as you're getting full BAB levels.

Regardless in both it'll require ranged study so i'm not limited to a melee weapon for studied strike, but otherwise the big thing between builds is maximizing damage, and if dead shot is worth it.


VampByDay wrote:
ranmyaku262 wrote:


I wasn't sure how good divine casting was at damage from a back row position as it seemed like divine spell lists were more attuned to front row/buffing as the ranged damaging side was more to the arcane spell lists. I had thought about buffing spells of course as well but those were a given and generally you're not going to be spending every round on buffing.

I understand where you are coming from, but you don't need damaging spells to keep useful. And you are right, you won't be buffing all the time. But past level, say, 8, my Lore Oracle was mostly busy every round unless the party had a super easy time with a fight, in which case I conserved my spells (and sat on my butt, admittedly).

Usually it went first round: blessings of fervor
Second round: if enemy spellcaster: start silence, if melee beatstick I cast sun metal on the melee PC with the most attacks/round.
By the third round, someone was usually hurt enough to justify healing

Not to mention I had things like communal align weapon to help my party overcome DR, I had communal air walk to help against fliers, I had dispel magic to counter enemy spellcasters. . . I usually had a lot to do. If undead were involved I used cure spells and lunging spell touch.

I actually only had two offensive spells, and they were actually pretty weak. Spear of purity and searing light, which I generally only pulled out against demons/ Devils and undead respectivly.

I guess that is true, i guess also at 10th level i'll probably be able to devote 1st and 2nd level spells to just buffs and spend those as i please considering if i go the life or even spirit guide route i'll have plenty of channel as well.

JonathonWilder wrote:

The very best choice though is an Oradin.

Also don't look at the Paladin's code is a restriction, or something that will make the game not fun. Paladins are so very often given a bad rap and I feel has to go with either misunderstanding the class's role or perhaps the cynicism of many. Of DMs and/or players really not knowing how to incorparate such a class into the campaign.

If you are willing I'd like you to take a look at my thread Roleplaying a Memorable Paladin, Not as a Restrictive/Troublesome Class but a Great PC..

Its less that i think its limiting and not fun, and more the party composition makes it very difficult to do that due to a few members being very prone to evil acts or lawbreaking. In most groups its not a problem, this one I would turn into the fun police.


avr wrote:

The obvious answer with the first is don't take only enchantment spells. Take the odd buff and/or spells like burst of radiance or admonishing ray.

A cleric or oracle who fights in melee from time to time is certainly doable. A cleric with the right domains would probably be better at it than a life oracle. You do have to make compromises on ability scores. What method for generating those scores are you using?

I wasn't sure how good divine casting was at damage from a back row position as it seemed like divine spell lists were more attuned to front row/buffing as the ranged damaging side was more to the arcane spell lists. I had thought about buffing spells of course as well but those were a given and generally you're not going to be spending every round on buffing.

I forgot to put this in, its 20 point buy.

For the melee holy vindicator idea i tried an idea with the Divine Fighting Technique Densa's Shooting star to do a Wis/Cha build as the technique allows for Cha to Atk and Damage with a starknife, though the damage output didn't seem to be that impressive.

VampByDay wrote:

1)As you mentioned, a life shaman can do pretty well. They can't spontaneously convert cure spells, but they have an eclectic mix of spells, and through their hexes you can get things like evil eye and the slumber hex, which can make you a good debuffer while still healing when called for.

2) Straight clerics of Saranrae are pretty good, especially if they take the glory and sun domains, which can basically turn them into undead-destroying monsters. They also gain a lot of buffs they can throw out (Bless, blessing of ferver), they...

Those are some good ideas. Though i haven't decided if i want to do melee or focus on casting. Melee has the option that its technically an unlimited resource, but it does have the greater risk of needing to heal yourself more as well.


I'm attempting to build a 10th level healer character for a campaign.

The issue i'm running in to is trying to find a way to do it and not end up being bored, because 100% healer is not only unnecessary but leaves you with little to do. So far I've thought of a few ideas but i'm not sure on their viability.

First idea was a Kitsune Spirit Guide oracle with the Life Mystery. Picking up Wrecking Mysticism curse so i can just grab all of the magical tail feats and focus into enchantment spells.
The pro is between the life mystery and the life spirit i can basically have 2 channel pools to work from so i don't really need to focus spell resources on healing, also i basically can just put everything into charisma for casting/channeling, with an 16 alone in a stat you can basically have 8 channels a day, and every ability modifier point basically boosts the pool by 2 every time.
The issue i see with that is the character immediately has to sit in a corner twiddling it's thumbs if anything is immune or can beat the saving throws.

2nd idea was Cleric or Oracle for 7 levels into Holy Vindicator. It seemed like an idea to approach a healer while also opening up a melee option.
The problem there is trying to strike a balance between melee ability stats, the casting stat, and channel. If you go oracle all of the fun stuff around channel smite becomes massively situational, and if you go cleric your channel uses and save DC and you need wisdom for casting, but at least versatile channeling opens up. I know a healer really should save healing till after combat so i probably don't need a ton of channel uses but you still need to strike a balance to ensure you don't run out too soon either.

Any suggestions would help, though I will say now i don't want to play the commonly suggested Oradin build, not to mention i don't want to play paladin due to alignment restrictions/codes and all.


Cool, thanks for the answers.

I thought it worked like that but sometimes I'm wrong on archetypes when they only alter a feature rather than replace it.


Snowlilly wrote:

Bucklers are not held in your hand.

Dervish Dance can be used with a buckler.

There was a rather lengthy FAQ request thread a couple of weeks ago, before it was locked.

This isn't about the dervish dance feat, its about the Whirling Dervish swashbuckler archetype. Also i mention it because it specifically calls out shields.

That said even though it calls out not holding a shield as the buckler isn't held it still doesn't answer the 2nd part of the question.

The 2nd question was does the "Dervish Finesse" feature of the archetype can you use a rapier or something else and still receive the benefits. I ask as even though those two are basically the same i'm more curious on the ability to use other weapons with it in general.


Just to check to ensure i'm interpreting this right.

The Whirling dervish archetype has Dervish Finesse, which alters swashbuckler finesse. It basically says you can scimitar as a 1h piercing weapon for the purposes of swashbuckler finesse and other class/feats but you only receive this benefit if you aren't using a weapon or shield in your offhand.
This otherwise leaves swashbuckler finesse alone to work as it normally does right?

I'm wondering for a couple reasons.

1. If finesse works normally i could still use a rapier and a buckler with this archetype and basically ignore the scimitar piece, as it doesn't seem to suggest I HAVE to use a scimitar.
2. The way this is worded it seems like once you get the 4th level ability called dervish dance, which counts as dervish dance, but more importantly it just says anything you use with swashbuckler finesse works uses dex instead of str for damage. The way its worded you could basically pick up any light/1h piercing weapon and gain the benefits of weapon finesse and use dex modifier on damage rolls.

I am currently looking at a build using a buckler, and I also wanted to confirm for a future build idea because it seems like outside of breaking precise strike one could in theory have a TWF build with this that could get dex to damage with both weapons. The other benefit is it seems to have some advantage over inspired blade where for a dex to damage build it saves you a feat in that feat tax chain, but it doesn't lock you down to a singular weapon.


Grumbaki wrote:

I like the idea of a full Cha based Oracle.

This was an already available option though. The build options you listed don't really utilize much of the melee options presented with the new feat.

That said it does create a humorously strong mixture of a caster-focused cleric-type with an oddly great AC without needing to put on any full plate.

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:
Scaled Fist uMonk w/Crusader's Flurry could be cool.

I had thought of this, but there isn't a huge advantage to this.

1. you end up needing dexterity again as a proper secondary stat as we've given up being able to wear armor.
2. With such a build you have to lose 1 level to multiclass to get channel energy to get a net gain of 1 feat (instead of finesse/grace feats you just pick up the divine training feat.) only to then spend 1 more feat to make flurry of blows work again.

So we're effectively back to where we were in a Dex/Wis build with a weaker Will save, and a loss of class progression and reliance upon 2 stats still. I would love to see a way to optimize it though.

Daring champion option mentioned before has some merit because while we don't really save any feats (because weapon finesse was free anyways) we get a bigger Panache pool and only 1 stat dependency. Too bad the utility doesn't come till 8th level or higher for a lot of the orders that support charisma.

Bard might be 2nd best option because it keeps the casting strong while boosting the melee side. With eldritch scion following in 3rd just because magus loses the ability of thrown weapons for spellstrike and the benefit is less apparent because save DCs aren't very important to a class that boils down to "shocking grasp more!".

So far the best option is Paladin, but that's not all that surprising. Though it seems a bit off for a paladin to have to follow a chaotic good deity to achieve this (from what i can see its technically allowed), because even if it doesn't multiclass, plate armor puts it in a good spot armor-wise and it can hide behind amazing saves and lay on hands uses while also being able to still hit things and damage them.

Third Mind wrote:
If you didn't want to be stuck with the star knife, you could take 4 levels of fighter for martial versatility, allowing you to use charisma with any weapon in the light blade group. Not sure if worth it. You would get solid HP, a fair amount of feats and BAB from it though, too.

That opens a few options but not much. We can upgrade the damage dice or take advantage of the overlap between the close weapon group, which can be used with brawler.... but we might be a bit spread across classes then as 4 levels fighter (or something that counts as fighter for levels), and possibly 1 level of oracle. Going full fighter might be ok, but outside of saving 1 feat, there's not much else fighter can benefit from a full charisma build.


Sangerine wrote:

Go with a single level dip into oracle for Cha to AC, then go Daring Champion.

You get to dump int as well (replaced by Cha for feat prereqs) and you get both the Challenge ability as well as stealing Precise Strike from swashbucklers. Pick up the Startoss Style feat chain and beam people with starknives at melee or range.

I had thought of doing that. I wasn't sure if the switch hitter would work well, but i had forgotten about startoss style and that precise strike works with thrown. Actually re-reading it i didn't realize startoss style doesn't even specify that it needs to be ranged.

I would assume vital strike would probably be beneficial then as it works with startoss and is pretty much the only option if i go the returning property route instead of getting the ricochet feat.

Is there a good order to go with a switch hitter style for this?


Orodhen wrote:
Tempered Champion/Divine Hunter Paladin.

While i do like the archetypes. I generally avoid paladin in my groups due to the difficulty to play lawful good with the mix of alignments. It ends up just turning the character into the fun police.


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With the release of the Divine Anthology along with the Divine Fighting Technique of "Densa's shooting star" which allows for CHA to Hit and Damage when attacking with a starknife. The advanced prerequisites for the upgraded ability doesn't really seem useful as the base ability allows for melee or ranged, but the final ability is a full round single attack that can deal 1-4 hits of damage.

As such i was thinking about how to utilize this in a interesting build and was looking for ideas.

So far the main ways i see to capitalize on this:
1. A level dip into oracle with the lore mystery can replace dex with cha for AC and reflex allowing to make dex effectively a dump stat.
2. It has caster stat synergy with Oracle, Bard, Eldritch Scion Magus, Sorcerer, and Paladin.
3. One could get AC bonus with the Scaled Fist monk archetype, though dex can't be a dump stat then as it won't stack with lore oracle.
4. There technically is nothing against using a large or huge for a 1h or 2h variant on the starknife.

The main build ideas I've had are.
1. Eldritch Scion Magus for melee.
2. Arcane Duelist bard for melee.
3. Slayer with a 1 level dip into lore oracle for either melee or ranged TWF build.
4. Swashbuckler/Daring Champion to maximize on Panache.

Any interesting ideas anyone might have would be helpful as I'm uncertain how to fully maximize on this as most ideas i have for this run into problems meeting certain requirements when trying to add anything interesting like feint/two weapon feint.


Burnscar wrote:
ranmyaku262 wrote:
Burnscar wrote:

I note a stray sentence in your OP:

"and utilize the deep marshal's ability to use 2h weapons to get 2h str multiplier on damage."

Not with spell combat, right? I don't see anything about that in the archetype.

Personally I like the idea, at least, of a dorn dergar wielding magus at 6th level and above.

But then again, I was always big into whip magi, and as such I've grown used to the idea of a two-feat tax on my reach - other people well might disagree.

I don't think the crossblooded dip is worth it, personally.

In bound by tradition:

"a battleaxe, heavy pick, warhammer, or weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name. She can use her spell combat or spellstrike abilities only with such weapons.
This alters arcane pool, spell combat, and spellstrike."

I guess it doesn't explicitly state the removal of the limitation but rather slaps a limitation on itself, though at least from what i can tell its supposed to mean "you can use it with these, but only these". Not really "proof" of intention but even the artwork for the archetype in the player companion is a dwarf using a 2h mace.

I could definitely see the argument being that mindblade specifically calls it out, but one could argue mindblade also does that because it has the capabilities behind level gates.

Considering just how pedantic paizo gets in their reading of spell combat (see 'is it full attack', natural weapons, hands of effort, slashing & fencing grace etc.), I must admit I find your reading rather unlikely.

Paizo's art is not to be trusted. Especially regarding deepmarshals.

This design was used for the Deepmarshal of the NPC codex. Who is a dwarven Abjurer 16 wielding a warhammer and wearing no armor.

IMO, you just have spell combat and friends, with the additional stipulations that they must be used with weapons from the list that otherwise qualify.

Darn..... i see the point there because the rest of the weapons specifically called out are all 1h weapons also. Making 75% of the list valid, just the other 25% that are 2h aren't valid. That makes this archetype much less interesting.


Burnscar wrote:

I note a stray sentence in your OP:

"and utilize the deep marshal's ability to use 2h weapons to get 2h str multiplier on damage."

Not with spell combat, right? I don't see anything about that in the archetype.

Personally I like the idea, at least, of a dorn dergar wielding magus at 6th level and above.

But then again, I was always big into whip magi, and as such I've grown used to the idea of a two-feat tax on my reach - other people well might disagree.

I don't think the crossblooded dip is worth it, personally.

In bound by tradition:

"a battleaxe, heavy pick, warhammer, or weapon with the word “dwarven” in its name. She can use her spell combat or spellstrike abilities only with such weapons.
This alters arcane pool, spell combat, and spellstrike."

I guess it doesn't explicitly state the removal of the limitation but rather slaps a limitation on itself, though at least from what i can tell its supposed to mean "you can use it with these, but only these". Not really "proof" of intention but even the artwork for the archetype in the player companion is a dwarf using a 2h mace.

I could definitely see the argument being that mindblade specifically calls it out, but one could argue mindblade also does that because it has the capabilities behind level gates.


Secret Wizard wrote:

I would not dip out of Magus. I also wouldn't recommend going Hexcrafter...

Giving up Spell Recall negates your strongest feature as a Deep Marshall - the increased caster level on your spells. Spell Recall lets you double dip on your caster level maximized spells.

Dwarven Dorn Dergar is also not particularly attractive... why not just use a heavy pick?

You can compensate for the weaker arcane pool by being a Dual Talent Human for +2 STR/INT and using your FCBs.

That makes sense.

As for why I had chose Dorn Dergar.
The reasons were these:
1. being able to spellstrike from reach seemed useful, but deep marshal doesn't support whips.
2. Being avoiding concentration checks many times.
3. It can swap to normal if reach isn't plausible for that fight.]
4. Even in medium armor my AC isn't very high so forcing additional enemies to provoke opportunity attacks to approach seems nice (the one i'm fighting will likely 5ft forward but i can 5ft away generally.


Hey so i'm attempting to put together a character for a campaign and i'm trying to get something that does a good mixture of "smashy" and "magic" that isn't a bloodrager (nothing against it, but its so much of a go-to for me that i need to play something else).

The characters are starting at 4th level and this is what i have so far:

Build 1:

20 point buy: 17 12, 12, 15, 10, 7
Race: Half-Elf(Racial bonus +2 str)
4th level bounus: +1 str
Final stats: 20, 12, 12, 15,10, 7
Class: Magus (Deep Marshal/Hexcrafter)
Use the racial alt for exotic proficiency in Dwarven Dorn Dergar.
And use the 4th level hex from hexcrafter to get the flight hex.

The main idea was to get medium armor early on, and utilize the deep marshal's ability to use 2h weapons to get 2h str multiplier on damage.

I imagine at some point utilizing power attack + blade tutor's spirit. To maximize 2h damage on top of shocking grasps and such.

I assumed the only way to do this would be pure magus from 1-20 but the alternative i've seen was this:

Build 2:

20 point buy: 17 12, 12, 14, 9, 9
Race: Half-Elf(Racial bonus +2 cha)
4th level bounus: +1 str
Final stats: 18, 12, 12, 15,10, 9
Class: Magus(Deep Marshal/Hexcrafter) 3/Sorcerer (Crossblooded) 1
Bloodlines: Orc/Blue Dragon
Use the racial alt for exotic proficiency in Dwarven Dorn Dergar.
And use the 4th level hex from hexcrafter to get the flight hex.

The alternative idea here is sacrifice a spell level and 1 BAB to get a +1/dice on all damaging skills and a +1/dice on all electric damaging spells. Making the intensified shocking grasp do 10d6+20 eventually.

The other downside is outside of the damage boost and eschew materials, the sorcerer casting basically is non-functional with any magus abilities, so only buffing spells could be chosen basically. Though pre-combat buff spells like shield wouldn't be horrible to place on it.

The 2nd reason for this build is because it fits the prerequisite of a 1st level spontaneous caster, allowing eventual leveling into Dragon disciple which doesn't require that the class I add the spell levels to is the spontaneous one, so i can keep boosting class levels on magus, while also benefiting from the stat bonuses of it.

A partial alternative of this, is do the 1st build but then build in sorcerer at 5th level so 6th can become dragon disciple.

I would like to get some thoughts/critiques on this or possibly a better way to do this. But so far on either build i don't really have any feats/traits outside of weapon focus and intensified spell, and intensified spell can wait because it won't be very useful until around 5th/6th level.

For both i'd also thought of removing hexcrafter to get spell recall back but i'm not sure how useful it is considering the main drawback of deep marshal is a weaker arcane pool.


I didn't check this thread for a bit and it mildly exploded. I did want to make one counter argument that came up a few times.

People saying they're not meant to last or be long-term and are more of a "fix me now" sort of deal.

While you're not wrong, because I think the party doesn't want one of their players to suddenly turn on them I will make a couple of points.

1. The system grants more manifestations and overall stuff over levels rather than time. Meaning it does somewhat intend for you to carry a curse for extended periods of time.

2. I have noticed there are very careful wordings on these that allow you to avoid the saves. Like vampirism to progress requires you to drain an innocent sentient creature, while the requirement is blood per week of a sentient creature. So keyword being innocent (which is 100% DM's ruling, but if you were going to off that bandit anyways because he was attacking you one could make the argument he wasn't innocent).

3. I'm slowly realizing if you make a character who is ready for corruptions you'll have a way easier time. Playing a Cleric, Inquisitor, Monk, or even just a sorcerer (bonus points if you go for the wisdom based spell casting archetype bloodline), add the trait, a feat, items. Heck the +2 on saves vs corruption is a 2nd level spell, so if its on your spell list you're stronger, and if its not potions exist.

4. The stains don't seem to be that bad imho. Like Vampire fangs is horrible, but if you've reached the point where you've outpaced your save through items/magic/ect... all you fear is nat 1s, then saving each day doesn't sound too horrible.

My original concern is if you started off with one you would die to it pretty quickly. Now looking at it, its more available of an option, just maybe not for all calsses/builds. I think the only concern is if the DM lets you pick the manifestations or if they do. As from what i'm reading it doesn't seem to directly specify.


Daw wrote:

Lycan Corruption advances on a monthly (lunar) timetable?

How did I miss that? I love it.

Aren't there methods, spells, etc that also help slow and even push back the corruptions?

I suppose the trick, like everything else, is to find the sweet spot between inevitable and trivial. Where that spot is, exactly, is probably also a personal preference.

From what i saw in the book all i could find was a 2nd level cleric/paladin spell that gave +2 on the saves for 2days/level.

And then a 6th level that included witch, shaman, psycic, spiritualist, and cleric. The 6th level could either push back 1 corruption stage, or remove 1 manifestation (and by extension a manifestation level).
It requires a CL check with a DC of 10 + 2x their manifestation level + 3x their current corruption stage. So a CL check from 12 to 34. If you roll at nat 1 or fail by 5 or more you catch their corruption and gain a manifestation level (if you already have their corruption you have to save to prevent progression).
The final bit is you can't self-cast it.

So from what i can see thats the only way to turn back corruption stages which comes with a decent amount of risk for the caster.

So that option doesn't present itself until 11th/12th level. (its also 500 gp per HD of the person you're casting it on)

That said I do agree. Maybe the saves are intentionally hard for low-wis low-will classes, as they wanted to keep with the theme that a Inquisitor, cleric,monk, ect.. has more ability resist their corruption than a rogue or a fighter who require less mental discipline.


Milo v3 wrote:
Quote:
But I guess, the narrative assumes you pass the majority of your saves?
It would do a lot to improve longevity to lower the save to 10+manifester level.

I think the main concern there would be that it would be incredibly easy to auto-win most saves (as long as you don't nat 1 of course). The system would need to be much more dynamic to the specific character's strengths/weaknesses.

I decided to just do a little basic look at chances to progress.

Corruption stages and chances:

Lets look at the two extremes, the fighter who has no will, and the cleric who has will to spare.

First corruption can be from 16 to 24 DC (maxing out at 9 manifestations).

First for the cleric:
Wisdom: 18 starting, 22 ending (from leveling bonuses)
Class bonus: +2 to +12
Magic items:+0 starting to +6 from headband of wisdom.
Resistance bonus(cloak): +0 starting to +5 end.

So the cleric can have a will save starting at 6 making their average save around 16, meaning about 50% of the time they'll make that save.

But by the end we could have a +26 (29 if they max out on inherent bonus). So by default gear progression the cleric has to crit fail giving a 95% success chance. If the cleric gets Iron will they could easily sit at 31 will and possibly outpace the DC for their corruptions even sooner.

Now lets compare the fighter:
Wisdom: 10 starting, 10 ending, he decided to just go full dump stat on it.
Class bonus: +0 to +6
Magic items: maybe the fighter gets the headband down the line so we'll say +0 to +6
Resistance bonus cloak: +0 to +5

So the fighter at first level has a 0 will save. Meaning they'll need to roll a 16 to make it putting their success chance at about 20%ish.
By the end their save would be +14, so now they only need to roll a 12, upping them to a 40% success rate. If they got iron will we can aim for a 50% success rate.

Now lets assume this fighter was made for corruptions and rather than he just got it and tried to run with it.
So lets add a +1 will trait.
And lets say using standard point-buy he got a 14 wisdom.

So his starting will save is 3, meaning he has to roll a 13 to make it. raising his chances to 35% from the 20%.
Now lets assume the person put 2 leveling points into wisdom.
So by the end he'll have a 18 will, 20 with iron will.

So their chances are about 70% success to 80% success. Which isn't perfect but its definitely more comfortable than before.

So taking all this data and using the suggested 10 base + manifestation level has it from 11 to 19 DC.

The cleric would start on a 90% success, and almost immedately cap out on success. (Actually with the +will trait they could have only nat 1s to worry about right away).
The fighter would start at 50% or higher if the focus will saves.

So basically.

With the current 15+Manifestation Class High Wis + good will classes already can quickly begin to outpace the DCs gaining maximum success chance, while low wis+ bad will basically have to catch up to their starting point.

If you lowered the DC by 5 as you suggest, clerics could almost immediately not care about the saves, and fighters would sit where clerics would currently sit at.

We would still want the saves to pose a danger, so maybe a more inclusive option is to base it on the higher of Will or Fort, or maybe lower the save, but base it on the lower of Will or Fort.

I think either would allow corruptions to still be a danger, but it would allow classes not in will saves to have a higher chance of success without handing immediate success to cleric/oracles/ect..


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Heretek wrote:
Daw wrote:

Ranmy,

Being interested in the corruptions is not a bad thing, it can make for an interesting character. It is there for a reason. Believing that the downsides are stupid and should have never been put in (and this has been posted) is munchkin. Concern over how fast it takes you over is a matter of taste. Believing that you should be able to avoid any downsides, is not a matter of taste. I don't see you falling into the Munchkin camp from what you have posted.

The problem isn't that there ARE downsides, the problem is the downsides FAR outweigh any potential strengths the corruptions may have even had. The result is a punishment system.

The Benefits/Stains are simply not even close to equal, and that's not even including the whole three strikes and you hand your DM your character sheet and go back to browsing tumblr for the rest of the session clause.

Honestly the penalties should outweigh the benefits. If we gave up feats/class features to use these there would be argument. But right now you can slap this stuff on top of anything.

I think the stain system is nice and is fine, the Lich one is a little nasty, but considering that if you're lucky the only time you need to save is when you level up and get new spells its not the worst thing ever.

My only problem were the corruption levels and how its possible to lose a character to it extremely fast to it, considering the system seems to be intended to want to give you greater benefits with growing burden as you level it makes sense to have some sort of finality.

I was partially wrong on the "no way to reverse stages" option as there's a 6th level spell calls "Alleviate corruption" allowing you to reverse 1 stage of corruption, and even remove a level of manifestation should the save be too difficult to keep up with. 6th level is a bit late to be able to handle it, but it is an option. The downside being you have to make a CL check and if you fail too hard you gain their corruption and get a manifestation level. And you can't self-cast it. So its not a perfect solution.

Stave off corruption is a 2nd level cleric/paladin spell that can grant a +2 on the saves, so its helpful as well in case you know their save is coming up soon.

That said the best prepared to combat the corruptions are paladins and clerics, which is funny considering a paladin is more likely to just off your character then let you try to keep hold of a corruption for power. Though a neutral cleric, or oracle would at least be cool with it.


Rysky wrote:
They're very thematic to have if the player in question wants to play slowly fighting/slipping into a monster.

I agree, with the thematic ideal and the idea that you could lose yourself to it. I think it could've benefited from either a longer time between saves or making it possible to maybe pull yourself out of the stages? Like a nat 20 or some sort of hard effort to pull yourself back would help quite a bit.

Daw wrote:
I doubt that very many people are interested in the horror themes, but I suspect a great many are disappointed that HA is not a free path to Lichdom/Vampirism/whatever uber-madness their little hearts lust for.

I'll admit i was one of those scrubs to a degree. But less for the power and more for the thematicness of vampirism/lichdom without the weak alternatives like Dhampirs and such (because spending a feat to get 5 temp HP from one creature subtype that I hope will be in enough abundance to even make remote use of this is so great). I was hoping more of a way to allow characters to obtain this rather than needing to apply templates that break the balance, but instead allow you to get some of the abilities while having to deal with all of the nasty drawbacks.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The Corruptions are presented for the GM to modify as needed......

...That said, some of these, like the Accursed corruption, aren't that hard to avoid progressing....

While I somewhat agree, many of the people in my group are a bit leery of doing custom rules.

While i get your idea as well that some are hard to progress, things like Hellbound are incredibly easy to progress, especially with things like "Devil's Horns" which if your ever have an agreement presented to you you're in a no-win scenario where you have to accept and exploit the loophole, forcing your progression without any save.

That said at higher levels this would be an easier thing to deal with, cloaks, stat bonus items, and Iron will, so maybe this is just something that requires higher levels to deal with.


So I've been reading through the corruptions and i'm curious if they're even viable for a PC to use without a GM using the Useful Corruption rules.

I've been looking over each of these and the Gift/Stain system seems interesting risk reward sort of system of giving you benefits with slowly increasing penalties. I realize these are supposed to be bad, but i'm curious how viable it would even be to play a character over several levels to obtain more manifestations?

The will save is already a bit high at a minimum of 16, meaning you'll need a decent wisdom score. So if you started at level 1 (like the book tries to suggest) and you're a cleric you might have a +6 will save, putting you at a 50/50 chance of making the saves to avoid progression. As many of these are compulsions to occur once a week or so is this even remotely sustainable? The Corruption stages seem to have no reversal system so its basically a 3 strike will save system. This was the optimistic will save as well, if the fighter gets it and assuming he just has a +0 wisdom bonus he could have a +0 will save. So now its a 25% or lower chance to make the save.

I understand there should be this ever-looming issue, but it seems like its really easy to succumb to the corruption and lose your character if you're not playing a high-wis + good will save class. But i would assume the Stains would continue to grant more and more penalties as you progress. My main concern from this is if your party is in a campaign with any travel/downtime. You could be on a boat and fall to your corruption while traveling from point A to point B. (Lich being the odd one out because its a fort save, and you can end up either constantly making saves or never making saves but many of the manifestations are working against you as you keep accruing con penalties while the DC keeps raising.)

I was curious what people's thoughts on the system were and if there's a way to work these into a character for a campaign at all.


Olaf the Holy wrote:
How much do you guys optimise?

Sometimes a powerful character exists, but generally the group just kinda plays what they feel. Once or twice characters accidentally struck gold on a build, but otherwise "functional", "decent", or "powerful with a glaring weakness" is generally the result of this group.

I guess to give an idea of general level we're looking at here is some greater detail on the characters made for this.

Characters:

Half-Elf Crossblooded Dragon Disciple
1. Crossblooded Draconic/Orc
2. Has ridiculous strength score. (mostly to help with terribad BAB).
3. Has a level in fighter and wears mithral full plate
4. Has no touch AC to speak of
5. Reduced spellcasting thanks to the multiclass/prestige.

Dwarf Oracle (Spirit Guide)/Barbarian (titan mauler)
1. Wields huge hammer.
2. Utilizes "rage cycling" for sunder build.
3. Spirit guide oracle for healing ability from life spirit to get channel energy.
4. Is a dwarf on a Cha/Str build.

Nohwear wrote:
What are his feelings on alignment and Paladins?

I guess what do you mean "alignment and paladins". Do you mean being a "chaotic neutral paladin" or more "how strict are we on alignments"?

To answer the 2nd we barely consider alignments, we mostly think about them in relation to spell effects and class restrictions. We've had "alignment slip" moments in previous campaigns but it was generally stuff that was massively out of character or out of alignment we might discuss it happening.

As for paladin restrictiveness I doubt you'd ever be intentionally put into a "no-win" scenario that would cause you to break paladin oath no matter what is chosen.


We are looking for additional players for a upcoming campaign.

Our DM is looking to do a generally Lovecraftian themed campaign starting at level 14. This does not mean it will be combat light.
Right now we have only 3 party members right now and are looking for one or two more to help fill out the group balance a bit more.

About the group:
We meet every Saturday or Sunday around 3 PM central time. (Right now these are open days for current group members and is negotiable for what specific day we want to meet on).

We use the maptools program for for map/tokens. We know about roll20 and simply don't use it because maptools has a few features/customization options that have made it easier for us to utilize for certain elements such as flying enemies.
We also use mumble for voice communication during gameplay.

As for the group itself we are a fairly laid back group, we don't take this as extremely serious and have a tenancy to get off topic for short periods of time.

We don't use any custom/3rd party rulesets and try to generally go with general consensus/paizo rulings, DM rulings only really entering in when no other rulings/consensus exist, so don't expect many house rules.

Our DM is somewhat inexperienced and as such the woirld/setting is not of their own creation, the basis was one I created and utlized in a campaign that since has been utilized in spinoff campaigns by other members of the group, the "Lovecraftian" theme is of their own idea though.

Right now the party only consists of 2 made characters and one that is still pending from our third member.
we have a Half-Elf Crossblooded Dragon Disciple and a Spirit Guide Oracle/Barbarian Dwarf.


I don't really see a huge benefit to sensate. You get uncanny dodge and evasion already with rogue, and the centered senses is just weapon training but requires an action to begin.
Unchained barbarian sounds like a better option tbh.

I might be wrong but sensate just doesn't seem to gain much. That and i'm a bit biased against fighter archetypes that cause you to lose weapon training because Gloves of Dueling are awesome.


Melkiador wrote:
Eidolon Size change can get a little weird though. What if you use Evolution Surge to give the Large(ex) evolution to your eidolon? Does it still stack with Enlarge Person?

I would assume it would, because technically the magic isn't the enlarge effect, the extraordinary ability granted by it is and to my knowledge it wouldn't change Large(ex) into Large(Sp).


Melkiador wrote:
A similar question could be asked of the eidolon and his size evolutions. Or what about some animal companions that change size as they level.

I don't think that question ever arises because enlarge person and similar enlarge effects say "humanoid" requiring the humanoid subtype, Eidolons. I could be wrong and there's something that lets you get past this limitation. That said those size are also EX and make no mention of emulating a spell.

And for animal companions there is "Animal Growth" which i think exists entirely for animal companions and to my knowledge does work when they get their level size adjustments because its a base/permanent adjustment rather than magical/otherwise. (yet another example of "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." comes from this spell as well specifically calling out spells).


Melkiador wrote:

In the magic section:

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

I agree that the FAQ could use clarification that it applies equally to non-magical size changes.

I believe this rule for the most part comes from the exact wording from Enlarge Person which says "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

And most other effects that cause it mention that or say "as per enlarge person" and generally they're supernatural/spell-like at that point (like titan mauler's titanic rage).

In this rare case its EX and makes no mention of emulating other abilities.

So i feel like there's a very strong argument here to say it would stack, and not to mention the whole "must make a will save or continue fighting against allies/bystanders" which is pretty hefty considering it STARTS at minimum 20 DC, making the big angry thing bigger can possibly be a nasty outcome for all parties involved.


zeroth_hour wrote:
It needs to be a (Sp), a (Su) doesn't qualify. The FAQ just says that any (Sp) that acts like a spell will count as being able to cast that spell for prereqs.

Wasn't there a ruling that Spell-Like abilities stopped counting for meeting the prerequisites?

I remember everyone using Aasimar's daylight spell as it's a 3rd level spell given to the race as a SLA. I'm having difficulty finding it now but I remember everyone suddenly saying that SLA where ruled as no longer working for qualifying.


Evan Tarlton wrote:
I am rather intrigued by the idea of a kitsune vigilante. It's the whole natural ability to change shape that makes it fit thematically. I was wondering about which particular build or archetype would work best with the kitsune. I'm leaning towards Magical Child at the moment. Any thoughts?

Is Magical Child an archetype/option for vigilante? I checked my old playtest document/google but not seeing much regarding this.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

@ranmyaku262: I didn't mean to indicate that the Bloodlines are generally mediocre -- far from it, some of them (for instance, Arcane) are awesome. But they are really uneven in quality, and taken individually, the Bloodline Powers (and Arcana) are also really uneven in quality. In other words, they are imbalanced among themselves. For instance, compare the various Elemental Bloodline 1st level Bloodline Powers (really puny blasts that are inferior to the all-day Acid Splash Cantrip) to the Ghoul Bloodline (awesome 1st level Bloodline Power). And you can find a host of other problems like that . . . Yeah, this needs to be cleaned up.

I agree, the quality ranges fairly hard between bloodlines, which lends itself to people leaning on a select few bloodlines.

Wildblooded did somewhat address this, but it somewhat has two issues.
1. Its mostly just replacing arcana/1st level powers (some replaced higher like the Brutal replaces the abyssal strength with wings, which is nice, but the arcana is pretty weak considering +2 on 1 target compared to orc which does +1 PER DICE with no target limit.).
2. Because of the range of quality there's little reason to not be crossblooded, but its been ruled wildblooded doesn't stack with crossblooded. Which honestly the best wildblooded options are the arcane/emphyerial options allowing Int/Wis to be used for casting.

Bloodrager isn't as bad as sorcerer but it also has an issue of a select few bloodlines being head and shoulders over the rest.

I'd rather just see new bloodlines or new wildblooded options be added than uncahined, we could end up easily seeing the good bloodlines just be brought down to bring them in line with the bad ones.


There's a big difference between "un-optimized" and bad though. If the character functions and contributes its fine. If the character is massive dead-weight and either eats all the party's resources to stay going or can't hit/contribute to a fight then its a problem.

Now also i feel if you overshadow your party and completely drain their fun you need to stop and figure out what is going on in the party. Either you need to assess if the party has characters bad at their role, or if you made something with the intention of stealing the spotlight constantly.

Generally i find if my party is super "bad" or "un-optimized" i try to make a character with some amount of support to help bring the rest of the party up in some way.

That and I find most groups should just pre-plan their group and have each player doing something different, and in all cases avoid having 2 players of the same class/role; because inevitably if you have 2 rogues or 2 barbarians one will do that job better than the other and make them irrelevant. At least having a spread out group its harder to have as much overlap and as long as your encounters/scenarios are varied someone will have their time to shine.


Atyres wrote:
ranmyaku262 wrote:

Synthesist is super wonky for a first-summoner. Alot of rules of what stays and what doesn't upon the merger gear-wise.

Manufactured weapon is probably the better option because you're maximizing total attacks as well as going with a shield to maximize defense. Remember not to be holding/carrying the weapons upon merging/summoning because they'll just meld into that form and you won't be able to access them.

Either way you have 4 max natural weapon attacks at 5th level.

Get limbs(arms) evolution. Chose serpentise base so you'll have a bite attack(with an additional 5ft reach) And a tail slap for free. Then get flight + wing buffet evolutions (as you'll qualify for those at 5th level).

You'll have 2 wing attacks 1 bite and one tail attack.

The wings are secondary as well as the tail. So the bite is your only primary. So all the secondary will be at -5.

If you get a manufactured weapon you'll have 1 attack (that'll eventually become iterative.) And then 4 attacks considered now secondary.

If you want defense on top of that grab a shield. Otherwise make the manufactured weapon a 2h weapon.

If you want to annoy your DM dip 1 level into barbarian just so you can rage because the extra morale bonuses are fun and work with this. Either way its a incredibly powerful archetype, and you might want to do some research on it to make sure you got all the rules in order as there's alot of stuff that people overlook when making them. (like extra evolution is disallowed for this because the eidolon class feature is replaced and you instead get something called "fused eidolon").

Edit: Eidolon gets no skills/feats of its own so i believe this means you're stuck at -5 for the secondary natural attacks, so you'll need to get the multiattack feat yourself.

Thank you for your reply. I was thinking of going with the manufactured weapon on a bipedal character with extra arms to hold a shield while still utilizing the great sword.

Also, after some reading, I found...

Ah ok. I've seen a large amount of back and forth on that one and the general consensus was "works like" doesn't mean "counts as".

Extra arms also work in this case as you'll still have access to those claws as in thoery the arms without claws would be used to hold the sword.

Read this if you haven't:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mi13&page=last?One-Synthesist-Summoner-Thr ead-to-rule-them-all

Its a long read, but search through this anytime you have a question as this class has been beaten into the ground regarding how it works and what is allowed. Its about 20 pages (last entry in Feb 4 2015).

The class hasn't gotten much FAQ thanks to being both PFS banned and many DMs banning it. Which humorously enough its not the most overpowered thing in any specific field, but it can be built with little to no real weaknesses.

Also if i'm not mistaken outside of spellcasting nothing disallows your eidolon from wearing armor as long as its donned post-merge (though it may need to be appropriately sized should you be large which could prove troublesome).


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A Wild rager dip would be a very close option to giving you something like that. If you kill something while raging you have to make a will save or get the confused condition which can range from attacking an ally, acting normally, doing nothing, or hurting yourself.


Jodokai wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Yet if your good at preparing spells and planning then everything your saying that is a drawback becomes an asset.

Utility is KING and wizard has it in spades. Being able to design a spell list to defeat every challenge is amazing power.

You're right, utility is king, and in almost every instance the sorcerer has more of it. IF you think about, if you know exactly what's coming, the sorcerer can just go out and buy scrolls. In that case he's still better than the wizard, because not only will he have the spells he needs for this particular battle, but he still has his regular abilities too.

If you want to talk about the cost of that, both the Wizard and the Sorcerer need the exact same items, a Wizard then has to spend more buying scrolls and copying them into a spellbook that the sorcerer doesn't have to do. So if we assume they both spend the same amount on gear, and they both earn the same amount, what does the sorcerer do with the money he saves on not having a spell book? He buys the scrolls he needs for those particular battles.

Really no matter how you look at it, you're better off with a sorcerer. The only real drawback is having to wait a level for next higher spell level.

Well except pearls of power cost 1/2 as much as a runestone of power so in theory if they have the same money, copying spells costs money but not a huge amount. So in theory a wizard can have more spells/day than a sorcerer given there's no real limit on runestone/pearl ownership.

Also in theory then a sorcerer may end up spending more money on scrolls just because they're buying tons of them for 1 time use (or even a page of spell knowledge if they want to not keep eating money for common utility spells).

Honestly it all comes down to also how much utility you need. A wizard can prepare based on city/field/dungeon/travel situations and fill many roles. Sorcerers are limited by funds/town visits in that regard.

I like sorcerers more than wizard but i don't feel its a clear cut where one class is incredibly better than the other.

That said I do feel the arcanist makes the wizard a bit obsolete because they did somewhat sprinkle in the upsides of being a sorcerer onto the spell flexibility of a wizard with that one while sorcerer still can hold onto what makes them good wizard kind of got buried on that one.


Synthesist is super wonky for a first-summoner. Alot of rules of what stays and what doesn't upon the merger gear-wise.

Manufactured weapon is probably the better option because you're maximizing total attacks as well as going with a shield to maximize defense. Remember not to be holding/carrying the weapons upon merging/summoning because they'll just meld into that form and you won't be able to access them.

Either way you have 4 max natural weapon attacks at 5th level.

Get limbs(arms) evolution. Chose serpentise base so you'll have a bite attack(with an additional 5ft reach) And a tail slap for free. Then get flight + wing buffet evolutions (as you'll qualify for those at 5th level).

You'll have 2 wing attacks 1 bite and one tail attack.

The wings are secondary as well as the tail. So the bite is your only primary. So all the secondary will be at -5.

If you get a manufactured weapon you'll have 1 attack (that'll eventually become iterative.) And then 4 attacks considered now secondary.

If you want defense on top of that grab a shield. Otherwise make the manufactured weapon a 2h weapon.

If you want to annoy your DM dip 1 level into barbarian just so you can rage because the extra morale bonuses are fun and work with this. Either way its a incredibly powerful archetype, and you might want to do some research on it to make sure you got all the rules in order as there's alot of stuff that people overlook when making them. (like extra evolution is disallowed for this because the eidolon class feature is replaced and you instead get something called "fused eidolon").

Edit: Eidolon gets no skills/feats of its own so i believe this means you're stuck at -5 for the secondary natural attacks, so you'll need to get the multiattack feat yourself.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Some of the Bloodline feat lists are pretty bad -- even considering that they are for gish builds, they still out to be at least functional for a single-classed Sorcerer at reasonable levels, but some of them are not.

Also, some of the Sorcerer archetypes that are supposed to support gish builds replace the Bloodline Powers that you need for gishing (Eldritch Scrapper, I'm looking at you). And the Bloodline Powers themselves are REALLY uneven in quality.

Sorcerer is far from being a bad class, but we need a Sorcerer Unchained.

The bloodlines are kinda meh, but remember its a full caster. Like domain powers/arcane schools the extra power is on top of the power/utility of being a full caster so they aren't meant to be super powerful.

That said we basically got all of options we wanted via the crossblooded bloodline, you lose spells and take a penalty on will saves to get double bloodline arcana and the ability to mix/match bloodline powers as we want. Considering Draconic+Orc can equal a 10d6 fireball becoming 10d6+20 damage (more if you're half-orc and got the FCB).

Honestly the class could have more options via bloodlines to be better at different schools, but right now the class as a whole makes for the best blaster option at least.

Any non-blaster options kind-of fall to arcanist for save DCs, and wizard/summoner for conjuration (maybe even arcanist).


Illusion is fun.

I found Kitsune with Wrecking Mysticism as an oracle can be fun. Wrecking mysticism lets you replace all your mystery bonus spells with the magical tail feat.

Mostly because Kitsune get a bonus to the DC of enchantment spells.

If you want to be a 100% caster oracle you can also just burn all your feat slots on it as well. So it grants you access to a bunch of enchantment SLAs like Dominate Person (the displacement spell is nice also).

The biggest downside is its alot of enchantment spells are "target humanoid", but stuff like bane works on anything. So it's definitely a setting specific thing as there's alot of stuff you can't get. But at that point you have a cleric's caster list so stock up on buff spells as a backup plan.


I wanted to check on something.

The boots say you move 50ft and deal 6d6 damage as per the lightning bolt spell. It mentions no saving throw but references "as per the lightning bolt spell" which has one. Saving throws are generally not calculated on caster level so I was curious if this was a "no save" situation or if it had a default save of 13 (because saves are generally 10 + spell level + casting stat modifier(which for an item would be 0))

I was curious as most items call out saves.


lemeres wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
He gets 5 feet fro Aberrant and has enlarge person. I did not want too much overlap and Like to keep a couple 1st and 2nd spells unused for emergency Spell eating if I get too low.

I'm not sure if I'd call it overlap though. They stack wonderfully.

A base character occupies his square and threatens 8.
Add large size, and he occupies 4 squares and threatens 30 squares.
Add aberrant reach and he threatens 48 squares
Add Long Arm and you now threaten 76 squares.

And if you add lunge and 5' step to that, you can full attack at a distance that many characters struggle to reach with their full move action just to do a single attack afterwards (ie- 30' out).

I'd generally advise against getting polearms when going enlarged. Don't want to end up like a dark souls boss where the safest place to be is right at your ankles.

That was the death of a abyssal bloodrager my group had once. Had super strength and HP. He got enlarged and a bunch of rogues managed to surround him and destroy him (and he couldn't do anything about it)

The build overall seems interesting. Even without a tumor familiar having just that extra HP pool even eldritch guardian is a viable option.


fel_horfrost wrote:
If you want a really high ac try the bloodrager with the destined bloodline and the steelblooded archtype. You get a luck bonus to your ac and saves at 4th level that scales to a plus 5.The fates favored trait adds a plus 1 to all luck bonuses so that's a plus six to ac and saves on top of your full plate and cloak of resistance bonuses. Play a half orc take the feat iron hide for a natural armor bonus then the improved natural armor feat a few times for a pretty high ac and saves. Very tanky imo.

I was half considering that. I had done a Crossblooded Arcane/Destined bloodline with fates favored (big fan of that trait if you're a halfling with the alternate trait, use a jingasa, or if someone in the party has the prayer spell). I had done that build once utilizing the blur with raging from the arcane bloodline along with combat expertise.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


I have a lot of ideas for making a character difficult to hit/damage/kill, and they mostly involve combining many small, inexpensive things that you can use a few of or all together. One of my favorite ones though, is really best if the entire party is on board. Does your party have any willingness to adapt their builds in order to use a group tactic?

The group generally doesn't plan together feat-wise. Most use of teamwork feats are when i did a cavalier.

Item-wise what else is there?

I know of Ring/Amulet going from +1 to +5. Dusty rose prism +1 insight. Jingasa +1 luck bonus. So based on the budget 2 of those might be +3, so about +8 total.

Depending on armor/dex looking at +10 from that.

So we're at about 28. Put the armor to +5 33. So outside of adding a shield of some sort i'm at a bit of a loss where else to add in bonuses.

RaizielDragon wrote:
Earth/Water Kineticist is very Tanky, and very different from the builds you listed.

I'll look at that as well. I haven't looked super close at the kineticist for this. Would you suggest the elemental annihilator archetype so the ability to threaten squares and have full BAB is an option or is the loss of the utility wild talents potentially a problem?


I am making a character for a campaign that is level 14.

In most campaigns I end up making a hard to hit melee character and i'm a mixture of bored with it and unsure how to build something a bit different.

TL/DR:

I've done fighter in full plate + tower shield (even went orc to basically never fall when negative and have the extra str offset the tower shield penalties).

And my most recent monstrosity is a Halfling who between daring champion cavalier and a small level dip to help with feats is a near unhitable monstrosity compared to the fighter because thanks to order of the eastern star and fighting defensively (crane style boosted) their AC/Touch/and saves are a bit dumb and I expect the DM plans to destroy them soon.

So getting that out of the way as a result I've tried both walking hunk of metal and the dexterous annoyance. So i'm looking to try something else but i'm having some difficulties.

Generally to be tanky you need some combination of the following:
AC - While i find the forum is a bit anti-AC i find there's a magical spot with AC where you can prettymuch shut down all forms of melee or bare minimum be almost never hit. But unless you focus super hard on it unfortunately I find it quickly becomes nearly worthless.

DR/resistances - When AC fails this helps mitiage.

HP Pool - Important, though falls a bit flat if you have neither of the above (seen many barbarian die because they had no AC to speak of and they thought 140 points of HP would last forever).

My problem right now is without dexterity you need armor, which is less flexible for stacking extra bonuses (aka monk, kensei, nimble bonus from those classes), and outside the nimble bonuses (huzzah mithral medium armor counting as light armor) you end up getting crazy attribute dependent.

We rolled for stats and i got 17,16,13,11,9,8 so i have a lot of room to work with here.

I was thinking magus or something else but i'm finding it difficult to make a character because either a class isn't very shield friendly or else i'm looking at just doing crane style or something similar all over again.

I've been looking at magus either with mindblade (dip 1 fighter to get heavy armor because psychic spells have no spell failure (though nasty concentration checks) or a regular magus as heavy armor is an available feat anyways. I looked at kensei but the archetype while sounding cool on paper seems to fall short.

In all 3 cases generally the AC with +5 armor and the staple ring/amulet combo only seem to just barely break 30+ AC and i had a fighter around the same level was nearing 50 with all the stuff collected by then (though enchanted tower shield + shield focus/greater shield focus was almost 11 points of AC alone).

I'm open to suggestions for something that can fit the role of something durable as many times my group tends to be very squishy and if my character isn't contributing via something like blundering defense or tripping of some sort to try and help keep stuff off the party, when the party has to make a tactical retreat having something that can be a somewhat durable meatshield while the group takes a round or 2 to regroup i've found is incredibly invaluable to a party.

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