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Hi,
I'm reading a lot post on summoners, both APG and the Unchained version. Most of the post are all about the Eidolon and not about the summoner's ability to summon monsters.
Since you can't have both an Eidolon and a summoned monster out at the same time, most people just seem to ignore the latter and concentrate on the former.
However, is not running an Eidolon a viable option for the Summoner? I would prefer to focus on the summoning aspect of the class instead of the pet aspect of it. I think conjuring monsters from the deep unknown parts of the world seems, for me atleast, a fun role playing thematic than the Eidolon component of the class, but each to their own.
Anyway, I was just curious as to the viability of the class without having the Eidolon tagging along. Thanks.
Step One: Play a Master Summoner.
Step Two: Win.
:P
If you want to focus on summoning one big bad monster every now and then, though, I think there's an archetype that makes your eidolon way more mutable. Just flavor it as being different creatures each time.
Sure, it's no problem. The Master Summoner archetype is great at that, but it can bog things down a lot (and kind of sideline the other players). I've seen players suggest self-limiting to one summons at a time, with any more than that being a panic button for things like avoiding a TPK. It also lets you have your half-progression Eidolon out consistently.
Really, it's just a matter of investing feats in the summoning-related options.
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Okay, you successfully summoned me -- now what?
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Back to your question, because I must actually answer questions. (Professional hazard: librarian.)
Rather than be a summoner, have you considered the Occultist archetype of the Arcanist? More spell choices, and standard action summons too!
Isn't master summoner banned in PDFs?
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You could do what some guy I know did, granted it was the original summoner class so I'm not sure how well the unchained summoner could do it. But just make your eidolon the most insane scout in the world, purely focus on scouting and nothing else. Then dismiss your friend when combat starts and summon away.
It's a fairly viable class, since having so many summon monsters guarantee's that you will be a force to be reckoned with in every encounter. The only difference between the eidolon and summoned monsters is that the eidolon is more versatile, and can evolve to be whatever you may need him to be, whereas your summoned monsters are stuck within tight constraints.
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Speaking as a DM with a summoner in his party. The summoner barely ever pulls out his eidolon.
Usually he takes advantage of his augment summoning feat and the assistance of a bard to make his summons pretty damn beefy.
The major 'drawback' of summons is that they typically are hitting below weight class, meaning they aren't as dangerous as they could be.
Lets say your bard pal is carrying a longspear, and on this long spear he has the relatively cheap and innocuous banner of ancient kings . With the banner, the bard's enhancement on inspire courage goes up to a nifty +4. If he has flagbearer, this might result in an additional +2 on top of that, meaning a +6/+6 attack/damage. Even if you don't accept that, its still a +4/+4 attack damage.
Augment summoning gives a +4 to con and str. So thats 2 more hp per hd and 2 more to the attack.
Between this and his bard friend, this means a summoner at say level 13 now has summons that have an effective +6 or depending on flagbearer interpretation a +8 to hit.
Put onto something like say a huge earth elemental, this results in huge amounts of damage on a very reliable hitting platform. On smaller stuff like bralani azatas that's numerous, high crit-range enemies who bypass evil DR and each individually have fun stuff like lightning bolt and wind wall.
With superior summoning, the summoner can now call in at least one more of each summons he pulls.
And keep in mind, as the summoner summons as a standard, his summons can act the turn they arrive. Meaning he can literally drop the summons right into attack position for an immediate full attack (with flanking).
Now the above flagbearer shennigans can start occuring as soon as the party bard gets 9k in his kitty and is willing to blow a feat on longspear proficiency. And the augment and superior summoning feats can be grabbed by a summoner as soon as he hits level 3.
Allied area effects (like bard song) increase the effectiveness of a summoner by leaps and bounds as the summons all count as 'allied.' So freebie boosts like bless and the like can make this even more ridiculous.
Note that the true power of the summon line is in summoning multiples, but that summoning multiples is what can cause the game to bog down because of all of the extra rolls.
Also, linguistics is very important. An elemental can make a great scout if you can just talk to it.
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It does go without saying that any player that runs a summoner character, be it summoner, wizard, or druid, should have index cards of his summons ready to go.Note that the true power of the summon line is in summoning multiples, but that summoning multiples is what can cause the game to bog down because of all of the extra rolls.
As a DM its important to remember also that summoned creatures cannot themselves summon, or use dimensional means of travel (dim door, teleport, etc).
Also quite a few of the outsiders have spell likes that result in odd situations (like lillends having some pretty beefy 3/day healing).
A lot of the summon spells were balanced with the assumption the summons would be around for a few rounds, the summoner keeps his around for considerably longer.
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It does go without saying that any player that runs a summoner character, be it summoner, wizard, or druid, should have index cards of his summons ready to go.Note that the true power of the summon line is in summoning multiples, but that summoning multiples is what can cause the game to bog down because of all of the extra rolls.
True. But even being totally prepped, resolving 12 attacks in your first round, as early as level 3, is going to take up a lot more time than your teammates. While you can lessen the summoning bog, you can't get rid of it as long as your summoning multiples.
A lot of the summon spells were balanced with the assumption the summons would be around for a few rounds, the summoner keeps his around for considerably longer.
Past level 4, this is mostly only an issue in out of combat uses of summoning. A combat that lasts more than 5 rounds is rare, and minutes per level isn't usually enough to ensure you keep the summons up between encounters.
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Another weird summoner thing I thought about.
The stack.
Its entirely feasible for the summoner to have say his large earth elementals resolve their actions, and then use his own action to summon in a fresh bunch or something entirely new, change the topography of the battlefield.
I'd draw the line at letting the new summons get their actions though. That'd just get ridiculous.
Ridiculous yes, but exactly that is what happens under the RAW.
I have thought of doing a standard summoner that uses summoned monsters for combat, using the ridiculous rule just mentioned, and the eidelon for skills and non combat stuff.
It should work, I think, but I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong.
Ridiculous yes, but exactly that is what happens under the RAW.
Yeah. A totally legal move that will get vetoed by a lot of tables for being too meta.
There is another slightly more legitimate reason for doing this. Say in round 1 you summon 1d3+1 monsters with your SLA, but roll a 1. In round 2, you may very well want to try using your summon SLA again just to up the number of creatures.
I am playing a Master Summoner and when I have my computer, which is where all the needed info is stored, there has been absolutely no problem with it slowing play.
Actually me character saved everyone's ass last session. 4 of us were fighting 4 vampire spawn, and we were not good against that sort of enemy. I slipped out the door after taking a nasty hit, locked it and cast summons through the keyhole.
The Hellhound convention that resulted turned the combat just before all 3 of the other PCs started keeling over. Just barely.
If I lack my computer, ie we are playing elsewhere, things do slow down. I have to get someone to bring up what I need and keep it on screen.
So if the master summoner's player has the right info and makes decisions fairly quickly I think the perceived problem with slow play is a bit of a non issue. A new player, perfectionist or something might be different.
Always spending your first turn in combat (the most important turn!) dismissing the eidolon as a standard action is going to hurt though.
If your eidolon is a stupidly good scout, you should almost always know the fight is coming in plenty of time.
"Tejan tells me there are bugbears coming down the hall..." Dismiss eidolon, summon, buff, ambush.
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well, it doesn't get you standard summoning, but purely for the fun of messing with the GM's head, take Skald and invest heavily in Linnorm death curses. Especially the one that leaves the target permanently staggered. Then dump expendable summons onto the field. It is almost better if you *don't* have augment summons. Really obnoxious summons, like stirges, or whatever the summon nature ally that does area affect misfortune.
The enemy has to either suffer through the effects of your summon, or kill it and suck down the curses.
If you have enough rage power slots, you can add Spirit totem so every one of those summons is also giving you an extra attack.