I shouldnt have to limit myself, just so someone can feel special


Advice

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Original thread/earlier this week

So, in a thread i posted earlier this week, i asked for some advice about ways of keeping my power spike in check, and ways of using my build as a way to "quietly" help my allies without stepping on any toes... I don't think it really worked out.. Funny thing is it hasnt even happened yet. Here's what went down after tonights session.

After the session we were discussing how we should go about completing our next task. It doesnt really matter how we got it, but basically we are about to fight an ancient dragon that's been terrorizing the kingdom farmers. Well we were going over how much damage, and what kinda stuff we do. I wasnt saying anything, just listening.

The "star" of our group is this Shaman with some pets. He does crazy damage, has crazy range, and a boatload of versatile ways of dealing with most things. (he's always efficient with round management, and is/other than me/ the most experienced person other than the GM) In tonights session, his versatility and flexibility was apparent.

The other three are all melee classes basically, and played by 3 new players.

We have a CM monk specialist that is more like a one trick pony when it comes to combat. He wrestles people, and its an effective way of disabling one guy at a time.

Then an alchemist, who honestly i dont really know what he does. He's the base class, he likes the alchemist for the roleplaying aspect. He throws bombs, muties out sometimes, but most of the time, he kinda doesnt really do much. Has a bastard sword he swings around.

Then there's a bloodrager, "max" dps dude. Typical hammer type(funny enough he uses a hammer). All he wants to do is damage, and has in his own little way, revolved his whole build around hack n slashing the first guy that looks at him wrong. (side note: as a player, he seems totally uninterested in the rping aspect of the game, and is on his phone or doodling until a fight comes up. He does very little talking)

Well it was just the 4 of us and the GM(mr monk wrestler had to leave early, so session was stopped at around the 4-5hr mark). There was a lull in convo after people had been saying what they would do in the fight and such so i piped in. If we're ganna be fighting a fricken Dragon, i should bring my -A- game so nothing bad happens. Well i unveiled my "Judge" construct chain dude. And not even like, BAM heres this badass ive been hiding from yall. na. it was more like, well this is what i got atleast in terms of this fight. I described what it does, and the AVERAGE damage this dude can dish out if he hits.

Well this rubbed mr bloodrager completely the wrong way. Like, everyone else was "thats badass," or dang dude thats alot of damage, thats sick. And i could tell bloodrager was pretty confused. He was looking at it, and all he said was "dude thats completely broken.." looked at the gm. "Is that legal?" Mind you, i talk to the GM (he's a really good friend of mine) on an almost daily basis, and alot of it is about pathfinder. I do everything by the rulebook, if you remember, and anything i couldnt find on my own (which was literally like 2 things) i asked GM ruling, and did everything by the book.

Basically, EVERYTHING i do is legal. I dont like homebrew rules, i feel like they take the legitimacy out of the game sometimes (not always, good homebrews are hard to comeby though). I could lay out the numbers, and rules, and entries to everything that went in to making this complicated big bastard, that makes him so strong after all is said and done. I mean, the whole point of my PC is to get to this point, i planned every. little. thing. Then he just acts all pissy after i just show him the numbers for the first time.

HE HASNT EVEN BEEN PLAYED YET. HE HAS NEVER EVEN HIT THE FIELD

In terms of damage(assuming all attacks hit, and bloodrager is fully buffed), the rager's MAX damage without crits, is about 35-40% of what big dude brings with an average dmg role. Mind you i didnt point this out. Hell, i didnt even think about it. Rager felt the need, to help him process it i guess, to do the math on how completely "broken" it is. I just min-maxed his damage on paper and rolled with it.

Well needless to say it got kinda awkward. I shut up immediatly, and just let him process it. Shaman and GM helped him in terms of explaining why it worked the way it did, and not only that, point out what makes it bad. The weaknesses, and the fact that in terms of build path, EVERYTHING i have done has been to get me HERE. To this spike. So i should be rewarded a spike like this if you have to commit every feat, every skill point, and every penny you got to making it work (and 20 full days of constructing it too).

tl;dr: In an attempt to be real with people, after the session tonight, i showed people what my PC has been working towards, and what my build brings to the table. One player takes it the wrong way.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In the last thread i expressed hesitation towards playing even remotely efficient, or "optimal," or for all intents and purpose, GOOD for fear that i would piss off some people. Well the first thing i show them about my PC, he takes offense to it.

I was legitimately worried, because thats the type of person i am. Ill play the support role, the anvil, the face. Whatever. Ill let them have the spotlight no matter what. (note: this is his first game, meaning my first game WITH him as a player) I can do the thankless job so they can have the limelight. I just like playing. But you know what, I shouldnt have to play a certain way to try and please someone who gets offended anytime he feels like he's being overshadowed. The thing is, all the other players just play. Every character has there own strengths, multiple weaknesses, different areas of expertize and, as players go just all around cohesion and understanding of how things work.

I don't know. I don't know what to do, i feel bad that he took it like that, and i love playing with them. But it sucks that i put all that effort into specifically NOT having this happens, and the smallest thing puts it in motion.

-Whatever


It is a good idea to play at the level of the others. To really be there, not "holding back for emergencies", as it is so often phrased. See, the feeling of being overshadowed doesn't take into account what others DO, but what they CAN do. Take the opportunity to goof out and make a character built around a theme, take suboptimal options. Enjoy the game AS IT IS BEING PLAYED.


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See, it's funny you should say that. Im playing a construct crafter.. A spellslinger Wizard Construct Crafter.

I've never even heard of something like that. First off spellslinger, as far as what i've read, is pretty sub-optimal on its own. But i wanted a gun, and int for crafting. So it makes sense. Then crafting constructs takes so much commitment to even get to, that im walking around with broken legs till i get there anyways.

If you wanna talk suboptimal, that was the WHOLE point of this build. I stepped out of my, number crunching face class, or the crazy spell DC anvil type to play something thematically fun. My inspiration for this guy was the Puppet Masters from Naruto. I wanted to have these objects fight for me. They would be my weapon.

Only problem is, i wanted it to actually be functional. So i did my homework. Like alot of homework, and this is the result. A weird/ unorthodox build that has a surprisingly big payoff.


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My advice? Just play the game. Stop worrying about how the other players are going to handle it and just RP up your character. They can step up and respond in game or they can deal.

Alternatively: If you WANT to limit your personal power you guys have more than enough funds to start a kingdom; the droids could factor heavily into that. I had a player do this (well he killed off the party and turned them into his puppets, but that was interesting in its own right), the kingdom building rules are a bit cumbersome however so I'd talk to your party and GM first.


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Tough luck for him. You said everybody else thought it was cool, so just do it anyway. He's the problem, not you.

The Exchange

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I'm actually kind of curious about what kind of constructs you made. :)

Anyway, I've had this issue in many games. Being a GM and generally having more rules knowledge than my players, I have been guilty of making CR stretching encounters that get pretty rough. Even the other GMs I know are impressed I can make CR appropriate single villains stand up 10 rounds to a full party. When I play, I know how to min-max but I try not to. In the end, the guy getting upset has no reason to. The one time you get to shine is supposed to be your own. Taking a backseat most of the time? Yes, you deserve one moment of glory. But also, it's a friggin dragon o.o ... If played smartly, those things are dangerous.


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Graves wrote:
Taking a backseat most of the time?

That was my mindset the whole time i've been playing. I want these guys to play there PCs and have fun, but im a player too. I shouldnt have to feel bad for making a reasonable or smart decision in a combat encounter. It doesnt matter if Rager gets the last hit on every. single. mob. Only thing that i care about it all of us getting out alive.

So i use fly to my advantage. (btw: since big construct gets unveiled next session, it means i havnt even been using constructs. Only one i got is a little Homunculus that flies around) Its almost as if the Rager forgot i was a thing, and was so used to me just being total non-factor (which is completely not fair, but i guess if im not doing damage then the stuff i do doesnt matter). I've been playing "God" Wizard, spellslinger style for the past levels. I use my gun to make my CC spells more potent. I hit my spike this level, and with enough free constructing time im ganna start getting real scary here pretty soon, and it sucks that he's taking it like this..


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the game situation here the biggest problem is your GM. From what I remember he just gave you a huge amount of money several times your expected WBL.
This gives everyone a power boost but (Un)Fortuntaly this synergises well with your build. If you spend the extra money on a better magical weapon you get say +2 to hit and +2d6 damage as the bloodrager could while you get a pimped out Golem which is more powerful than the pc's individually because you can more efficiently use the money.
Normally this would be much less of a problem because you would not have enough money to buy a construct that powerful and the lesser constructs you could afford would not overshadow the party. In my brief look at the construct rules for an upcoming game it did look possible to legally build constructs which are too powerful for their cost as well but thats a slightly different issue. So because you have too much money for your level you are able to replace a damaging pc with a class feature,this is unfortunate and one reason for limiting wealth.

In general a few I hope helpful comments
1) Spellslinger is indeed a weaker wizard it's still a wizard so still fairly powerful
2)"Then crafting constructs takes so much commitment to even get to, that im walking around with broken legs till i get there anyways." Is a classic fallacy of game balance IMO made throughout the earlier rule sets. It goes that because something is powerful at high level(wizards) we will make it suck at low level so thats fair. It isn't. What happens is that at low level indeed the character sucks and it is not a lot of fun for the player, then at high level they are powerful and its not fun for everyone else. This is a clear case of 2 wrongs not making a right.
3)I end up doing similar things to you I optimise a none optimal concept because I like optimising characters but don't want to be vastly better than the rest of the party and it generally works the problem is that sometimes like this soemthing plays to your strengths and you are 'overpowered'
4) I understand the other players point as well. In most groups characters have niches (damage, social spellcasting, etc) and it is annoying if someone suddenly comes along and tries to take your niche away which is what it will look like to him.

But really the problem is if you did not have stupid money you could probably not build a construct which replaces a pc

Silver Crusade

Yea Srtz, that build would be feat starved. I am curious what you did with this character. Did you get all your pre-req feats and craft construct all taken by 5th level? Or did you use your general feats at 1st/3rd/5th to take point blank / precise / and far shot and use your 5th/10th level bonus feats to take your crafting?

I am actually a fan of the spell slinger, but neither of my two builds veered off in to the construct arena.

One thing that is in your favor for this dragon fight... ranged touch against a big creature = easy hits.

Did you take the x3 critical single gun option?

Anyway, try to put these objections to your build out of your mind. I have had to do the same thing at my gaming table. There is nothing wrong with your spike. It happens with any build that you plan from level 1 (if you know what you are doing).

Good luck with that dragon!


JohnHawkins wrote:
I understand the other players point as well. In most groups characters have niches (damage, social spellcasting, etc) and it is annoying if someone suddenly comes along and tries to take your niche away which is what it will look like to him.

More so if the one taking away the niche is a wizard who can do tons of other stuff well in addition to being better in the other player's niche.


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Hawk wrote:
In general a few I hope helpful comments

I completely and totally agree with everything you said.

The money is playing a huge part it this whole thing, cause the benefits he's getting for the paycheck doesnt give him to-scale power up that i'm getting. This just boils down to build path that no one coulda seen coming. I guess it just worked out this way unfortunately.

4: As far as taking his niche, thats not what i wanted to do. in terms of party composition, we are a very blasty/beefy party. We slug it out with the best of em, we have strong frontliners with the monk+rager and additional support from the Shamans mutts. Then we have a semi-solid mid-ranger filled by the loveable alchemist. Then at a distance stands me and the shaman.

In terms of fights, honestly, i rarely get hit, like ever. Same with the shaman. Enemies get so tied down with our frontline + my spells that it makes it near impossible to get past the first stage of combat. It boils down to GM encounter building, which i think i need to talk to him about. I think the Dragon fight will be a clear decider on how strong we are though.

The Exchange

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That really seems like a personal problem with himself. It also seems like he's more trying to "win" the game from the description. That isn't what this kind of thing is about. I do hope you find a way to keep playing with him, but this isn't something to be upset over.

When I DM I give every player a bit of spotlight. If the character in question is under-powered, or "shown up" alot in combat, I'll throw in an NPC that will only deal with said character to advance the plot. Everyone gets fair screen time in this mental motion picture.


Now I'm not real up to snuff on crafting, but maybe you could promise to build him something bad ass? Idk what you are capable of making other than constructs but maybe there is something you could make for him? I feel like this May have been your plan all along but maybe build a number of constructs that can travel with the party and have them support the party in different ways. For right now your going to some huge crazy battle, maybe find a way to make the thing more of a tank rather than dishing out tons of damage,(it can still do that but maybe less so?) I'm not sure how you would get it to draw most I the attacks though. Either way only bust this guy out when you know the fight is gonna be a big one. Other wise maybe have a tiny little scout construct who goes with the party the rest of the time. Idk. :/


Moose wrote:
More so if the one taking away the niche is a wizard who can do tons of other stuff well in addition to being better in the other player's niche.

that was truly not my intent. I just wanted a beefcake that could keep me unscathed in a big bossfight(he was intended as a trump card/meaning nearly never take him out. But its a D.r.a.g.o.n) incase something big and scary got close to me. It wasnt intended to double our dps output. I wanted a tank, not a hammer. It just so happens he does that pretty well if he gets a full round


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So the short version appears to be "I know another player focuses on DPS and intentionally built a construct focusing on the exact same thing and he's unhappy". To which I say, DUH.

The long version appears to be "And here's a case study in how large sums of money given to lower level characters imbalances the game" followed by "And here's how large sums of money given to a construct maker can make other characters feel slighted".

Seriously, you could have used the money to make yourself a CR 16 creature to handle all the combats for you for several levels. Hell, with the custom building rules you could have made yourself a 60 HD Homunculus with the Brain modification and maybe a few enhancements to strength to pick up power attack. It would have 30 feats, 120 skill points, 15 ability score bonuses. Base attack bonus is +60. Grab power attack and it would power attack at +44 (plus STR) for 1d4+32 (plus STR). Oh, and all the other things. A DC 40 30d6 acid breath weapon. You could throw on any spell that exists as a potion by using 10 of them (doesn't otherwise increase the price of the homunculus).

Also, as an aside, I somehow doubt your character was built towards receiving the entire wealth of a level 14 character in gold as a lump sum 7 levels early.

I'm sure if you were level 14, when you should have had that kind of money, the bloodrager would be a lot less concerned with your super construct. Mostly because it would probably be a lot less super and a lot more... speedbumpy.


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Bobx3 wrote:
60 HD Homunculus

This.

haha, but no really, making something like that not only, wouldnt exactly be legal, since the CL cap is based on HD of the construct usually. And having all that modified mumbo on it, would make the construction of it take months. But and overpowered homunculus is legit terrifying haha


loveablepleeb wrote:
Other wise maybe have a tiny little scout construct who goes with the party the rest of the time

Thats been what i've done up to this point. I had a homunculus construct as a scout/sense link that i could either send out, or stick on the party and i can split. Either way it gave us flexibility outside of combat.

Theres some stuff i can do to "power" up my party in combat, i just wanted this tank ready first incase something came up. Then wamm, Dragon fight inc. So im glad he's ready, Mr Bloodrager not so much..


If someone is more worried about being 'overshadowed' by a PC pet, don't worry about that nonsense. This is a roleplaying game and if you want to play as a squishy gun mage with a giant construct, more power to you if it is actually useful.

Your fun =/= the bloodrager being made a second wheel. Unless you blatantly optimize things with a cookie-cutter power build (Slumber Witch, anyone? How about the Mythic orbit thrower Barbarian with Body Bludgeon/Limitless Range?), I see no reason why it should even be an issue in the campaign.


Master of the Squealing Doom! wrote:

If someone is more worried about being 'overshadowed' by a PC pet, don't worry about that nonsense. This is a roleplaying game and if you want to play as a squishy gun mage with a giant construct, more power to you if it is actually useful.

Your fun =/= the bloodrager being made a second wheel. Unless you blatantly optimize things with a cookie-cutter power build (Slumber Witch, anyone? How about the Mythic orbit thrower Barbarian with Body Bludgeon/Limitless Range?), I see no reason why it should even be an issue in the campaign.

You're missing the part where the OP was given a massive windfall by the GM that allowed him to make a construct far beyond the capabilities of any martial character of that level.


Quote:
Basically, EVERYTHING i do is legal. I dont like homebrew rules, i feel like they take the legitimacy out of the game sometimes (not always, good homebrews are hard to comeby though).

I strongly doubt -everything- is legal as everyone makes mistakes. Regardless...

Amusingly this is exactly why I prefer homebrew in my game, because it gives the option of avoiding stuff like this. The 'core' is pretty stacked against martial types otherwise, especially at higher levels (and more so if you are new and don't know every single rule and splatbook option or how to maximize your choices). Personally though, I'm not fond of characters that make any other character feel superfluous. Everyone deserves to have fun and feel valuable.


to be fair, I think you may be engaging in one of the lower tiers of metagaming. I mean a lot of people plan out characters including myself, but feats and what class's you take must always reflect on the story. While not actually breaking the rules, people can still exploit them.

I mean I've encountered DM's who, if you took your first class in fighter and your character has never met a wizard and has no knowledge of it. then you can't take a level in wizard. I think its strict but fair. for example, the goal that you were aiming for, the particular feats and abilities that aligned themselves in such a way that allowed you to pull off you crazy DPS. was your character aiming for this as well. was it a story point?

I don't know what your build is, lets say that your build relied on a... an agile greatsword. if your character actually bought it, he must of had prior knowledge of that particular enchantment right? perhaps he had seen one in his travels and desired one ever since. then it makes sense, but if once your character hits the level where the build requires that particular magic item and thats the reason you buy it, then it can feel pretty cheap.

I mean my current character in my rp is a duel wielder and thus has duel wielding feats and uses two swords, but if he loses a hand... well. it'll become a sword and a hook which'll hurt my DPS but whatever. thats the story for you.


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Aleron wrote:
I strongly doubt -everything- is legal as everyone makes mistakes. Regardless...

I dont think its fair to assume i made mistakes along the way, especially considering how much planning i actually had to do to make this work in the first place. On top of that, like i said, i talk with the GM on the daily, and he's just as experienced as me(we've been playing just as ling, got into it the same time, but he's been a GM most of it), and on the flip he has a ton of GM experience. So he looks at things from a diff angle. I run everything past him, and because i wanna do everything right. After i double and triple check, he does the same.


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Haydon Mehmet wrote:


I don't know what your build is, lets say that your build relied on a... an agile greatsword. if your character actually bought it, he must of had prior knowledge of that particular enchantment right? perhaps he had seen one in his travels and desired one ever since. then it makes sense, but if once your character hits the level where the build requires that particular magic item and thats the reason you buy it, then it can feel pretty cheap.

Unless the pc met someone with that kind of weapon in his youth.

Same with the fighter becoming wizard. Perhaps his father was a fighter and his mother a wizard. Just because there haven't been any wizards during gameplay it doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about wizards.

I liked the 3.x option of starting as level 0 in two classes. Prevents that issue.


Just a Guess wrote:
Haydon Mehmet wrote:


I don't know what your build is, lets say that your build relied on a... an agile greatsword. if your character actually bought it, he must of had prior knowledge of that particular enchantment right? perhaps he had seen one in his travels and desired one ever since. then it makes sense, but if once your character hits the level where the build requires that particular magic item and thats the reason you buy it, then it can feel pretty cheap.

Unless the pc met someone with that kind of weapon in his youth.

Same with the fighter becoming wizard. Perhaps his father was a fighter and his mother a wizard. Just because there haven't been any wizards during gameplay it doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about wizards.

I liked the 3.x option of starting as level 0 in two classes. Prevents that issue.

sorry, I include backstory when I'm talking about role-play. should of made that more clear. but it does get pretty cheap when a character's dad was a monk, there mother was a wizard, and their uncle was a samurai and thus they can have all those classes, plus he knew a half-orc who used a great axe so it makes sense for my character to have that particular exotic proficiency.

whilst I don't hate it when the builds come first then the backstory comes later. you can only stretch the backstory so far until it becomes farfetched and then you're running the game for everyone because you're tainting the universe so to speak.


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Just because you can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that you should do that thing.


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Just because someone shouldn't, doesn't mean they won't.

Dark Archive

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I concur that the major culprit of disparity here is the GM handing out way too much gold. I know from personal experience that wealth disparity, in either direction, can completely destroy any semblance of game balance. My suggestion would be to speak to the GM about fixing this imbalance. Perhaps a really cool setpiece battle in which your new over-powered (for your level) construct shines, but is ultimately sacrificed? To make it fair, the rest of the party would have to lose a good chunk of their own ill-gotten loot as well. That way you get to stay true to your character, try out the nifty new toy, but not suffer from continued imbalance for the rest of the campaign, intentionally come up with implausible reasons not to constantly use your big guns, or end up with inter-player conflict ruining everyone's fun.

The other player's conduct is unfortunate, if understandable. Yes, everyone likes to have a niche and it sucks to find oneself overshadowed. Then again, it sounds like this player is a bit greedy for the spotlight, so maybe he is being a bit childish about having to share it for once. Not knowing the particulars of your dynamic, I cannot say for certain, but if you do indeed believe that he is acting in an immature manner, acting out because he is threatened by the idea of another character stepping, however briefly, on his schtick, perhaps you should have a conversation with him about it. If you take the advice from my previous paragraph, and the GM goes for it, perhaps he will be mollified by the assurance that the big bad golem will only be taking "his" roll for a single mini-arc. Of course, he will also have to eventually come to terms with the fact that, simply based on the way the system is built, your wizard and the shaman will inevitably take the spotlight mechanics-wise as the game progresses to higher levels, simply because of the sheer power and versatility afforded to full casters. If he wishes to continue to be the specialist shining snowflake, he may have to actually concentrate on story and role-playing, an arena where in-built power disparity is not so much of an issue.

Finally, if none of this helps your specific situation, the GM has plenty of tools in the arsenal to balance things out. Perhaps the bloodrager would be happy wading through the dragon's minions, or if he insists on facing the Big Bad, the other way round: have the uber-golem fighting a small army that would have otherwise overwhelmed you while the rest of you face off against the master. Also, unless said construct has the luxury of flight or very long-range attacks, well, dragons are smart and can fly, so I would not bet on it choosing to close the distance with your new toy.

Hope at least something in my musings helped. Regardless, Happy Gaming!


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There's a couple things here that bother me. One, you shouldn't have to adjust your style or hamper yourself for any reason. Just play your character. That means "roleplay" - not roll around a bunch of awesome numbers. That's like talking about people in terms of skeletal structure instead of as complete whole living people. The same goes for your character. It should be a "character" first and foremost.

And two, you really shouldn't be showing your game stats to other players. If it's not something their characters can see in the game world, then it's not their business. Power gamers, like the table you're describing, start coming up with devious ideas of things they feel entitled to because of something they see on someone else's PC build.

Just play your character as a character. Forget all the numbers. Roleplay, have fun and let the others play their characters the way they want to. Leave all the numbers bragging for WoW.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Let's look at it from his side.

A first time player thinks he has the lock on DPR in the group. You surprise him with something that takes a huge amount of system knowledge that he might not even be able to fully understand. It completely blows by anything he can do in the one area that he thought himself competent.

Seems like you totally blindsided him. Although he probably could have handled it better, from his side it probably felt completely unfair.

So, when this boatload of money came in did you make suggestions to the newer players on how to spend it to make their characters stronger? Things like a furious enchantment on the bloodrager's main weapon? The reason I ask is you talked of how they were new characters, and equipment makes a huge difference in power. It can be tricky picking the right equipment.

If you've been good about sharing your system experience, it could go a long way towards mending hurt feelings if you point this out. If you haven't, perhaps you should consider offering to help him create a better bloodrager via changes in equipment.


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There are two points here that I really don't get.

1. "Crafting Constructs is hard so it deserves a big payoff"

No it... it really isn't. It has two of the best feats in the game as prerequisites. After that its only cost is gold, which you have in spades. Crafting Constructs is downright easy. The only problem is that it's hard to leverage their value since constructs are, on the whole, Big Stupid Targets that cost a lot of money if they die. With that much money, you can craft something so high above CR that this is irrelevant; anything that could kill it will wipe your party without trying anyway.

2. "It was never my intent to take the other player's niche"

You built something that was designed as a walking wrecking ball, and didn't think "maybe this is something my existing walking wrecking ball won't like"?

This point I was originally going to leave here, because you did say "I wanted a tank, not a hammer."

Cool. Maybe it really was an accident. But then I remembered another Construct-related thread... which was you literally asking "how many slam attacks can I legally give a construct".

That's... not a question you ask of something built to absorb damage. No... after re-reading that thread, and this one, it seems that this was intentionally designed to stand and deliver, to slug it out with the best of them.

Which is the exact niche that your Bloodrager filled.

So I have to ask again. Did you really not see this coming? Because that was literally my first thought when I last looked at building constructs-- "Gee, these can do a lot of damage at range, I should make sure that my ranged buddy is cool with that".

If you really didn't see this coming, I would take the lesson to heart. If you don't want to be upset with other players, and have them upset with you, don't make them irrelevant (especially at the one part of the game that they enjoy).

Sovereign Court

With great power comes great responsibility.


Money breaks some chars more than others. Crafters are specially benefitted. If your game got a huge influx of gold and now your char does like 4x the damage of your pure DPR chars, then is not your char what's broken. Is your game's economy. Your GM should think about thst. And shoukd do it without taking in account your are his friend. From the bloidrager's perspective this sounds like "the GM buddy got along with a lot of gokd that personally benefit him more than others, and is trying to cheese"


Just a Guess wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:
I understand the other players point as well. In most groups characters have niches (damage, social spellcasting, etc) and it is annoying if someone suddenly comes along and tries to take your niche away which is what it will look like to him.
More so if the one taking away the niche is a wizard who can do tons of other stuff well in addition to being better in the other player's niche.

Yeah, the problem here is the system [and how much sheer power a mage gets out of the same money a martial uses to just do his job a bit better] and not the player himself. He even discussed this whole process with the GM all along [and I might lay a bit of blame on the GM for not seeing this coming and either distributing the wealth differently or having the Wizard tone his constructs down a bit BEFORE they were built and entered play.]


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:
I understand the other players point as well. In most groups characters have niches (damage, social spellcasting, etc) and it is annoying if someone suddenly comes along and tries to take your niche away which is what it will look like to him.
More so if the one taking away the niche is a wizard who can do tons of other stuff well in addition to being better in the other player's niche.
Yeah, the problem here is the system [and how much sheer power a mage gets out of the same money a martial uses to just do his job a bit better] and not the player himself. He even discussed this whole process with the GM all along [and I might lay a bit of blame on the GM for not seeing this coming and either distributing the wealth differently or having the Wizard tone his constructs down a bit BEFORE they were built and entered play.]

The system has its problems, but the player has to choose to push it. We all agree that Simulacrum is an obnoxiously broken spell-- but that doesn't matter unless the Wizard chooses to learn it, chooses to cast it at the correct creature, and chooses to abuse the resulting simulacrum. It's still all about player choice, so ultimate blame still falls on the player who made those choices. Unless the system forced him to build that construct somehow.

The GM... yeah, he asked for this one.


BretI wrote:
So, when this boatload of money came in did you make suggestions to the newer players on how to spend it to make their characters stronger? Things like a furious enchantment on the bloodrager's main weapon? The reason I ask is you talked of how they were new characters, and equipment makes a huge difference in power. It can be tricky picking the right equipment.

The furious enchantment as we knew it no longer exists due to recent errata. If anything, I'd be worried that the bloodrager was about to get a lot worse ;)


Matrix Dragon wrote:
BretI wrote:
So, when this boatload of money came in did you make suggestions to the newer players on how to spend it to make their characters stronger? Things like a furious enchantment on the bloodrager's main weapon? The reason I ask is you talked of how they were new characters, and equipment makes a huge difference in power. It can be tricky picking the right equipment.
The furious enchantment as we knew it no longer exists due to recent errata. If anything, I'd be worried that the bloodrager was about to get a lot worse ;)

That's Courageous. Furious still exists and is still awesome for Ragers.


Completely off topic: Wow, they finally clarified that? I remember quite sometime ago having a discussion on how the property worked. Long enough ago that I'd forgotten lol.


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I'm gonna go ahead and concur with the other posters, this is a gm problem, that's exacerbated by your attitude.

Firstly, allowing custom golems is a super bad idea, for the same reason allowing custom races is, and custom eidolons was backpedaled on to a large extent. In those systems, players will pretty much always milk way more out of the system than was intended.

Secondly, giving that much extra wealth to a lower level party was just asking for trouble. Some abilities scale way, way better with wealth than others. Like the craft construct feat.

Thirdly, this is a cooperative game. The other player in question clearly enjoys being a combat beatstick. You're not just stepping on his toes, you're breaking his foot, his ankle, and the rest of his leg, with your pet, and saying he shouldn't whine about it. That's... a poor attitude for a group game. Don't want to reign in your optimization? There's a variety of single player RPG's to choose from. Otherwise it becomes the "stand there and watch while I solve all of the problems" show. Like it or not, that's not really fun for everyone else involved.


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The bloodrager in that game is a pure damage dealer, and does 35% of the construct damage. That means the constructor is like 3 chars, plus the wizard itself

So this GM managed to ley a player be a party by himself, because he threw away waaay too much gold in a game were one of the players was able to turn that golf into combat prowess easy. That player happen to be a great friend of the GM, who talks to him daily, often about pathfinder, and discussed with him his plans (I wonder if the discuss was before or after the gold influx...). Then that plsyer dtsrted a thread asking advice about how to legally push the construct damage. Which kept secreto, until bragging time came.

The more I smell it, the greater the cheese odor is. I'd also be "mildly upset" if I were the bloodrager.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Don't be that guy.


I once was playing a space master game where the GM let one player have cybernetics that totally unbalanced his character to the point that if the GM made encounters suited for that one player, then everyone else would die.

This golem is pretty much the same as that cybered up player. No GM should allow a construct or cohort to out do another character by a 3x factor.

If I was the barbarian, I would be more than mildly upset.


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The Wealth-per-Level guidelines are just guidelines, so you can be very lenient with them. But the DM flatout broke them to pieces and threw them out of the window.

And now he got a broken group mechanic....

Count me as "Not surprised". DM is to blame for distributing a gamebreaking amount of gold, which then did indeed break his game.


Construct your golem as a hollow shell, with a lot of padding so you don't get too bruised if you have to shelter inside it.

Then your GM can show some minotaurs or something getting shredded by automated defenses, dart storms and slashing adamant blades. One hero-minotaur manages to parry a blade, and all this is observed. How to get to the defenses controls? The suit can absorb the dart storms, but not dodge the blades. The 'rager could use his BAB to parry, but the darts would shred him over time.

But the 'rager, INSIDE the suit... Good thing all that padding is removable.


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1 wrote:
So, when this boatload of money came in did you make suggestions to the newer players on how to spend it to make their characters stronger? Things like a furious enchantment on the bloodrager's main weapon? The reason I ask is you talked of how they were new characters, and equipment makes a huge difference in power. It can be tricky picking the right equipment.

In the previous thread i said that they ask me for advice in that area. I really did give them my thoughts on the route they should take to maximize what they are trying to do. It wasnt even like :\"this is what i would do," I always asked "What are you trying to do?" Then go from there. But mostly, it was the Alchemist and Wrestler that took it to heart. I helped rager out a bit, but he's never seemed interested in getting helped unless he's stuck.

2 wrote:
That's... not a question you ask of something built to absorb damage. No... after re-reading that thread, and this one, it seems that this was intentionally designed to stand and deliver, to slug it out with the best of them.

That was one of the two rules that wasnt properly stated when it came to building constructs. I need to have the rules there to make proper decisions. That was one of the times i asked the GM for the ruling. It wasnt me trying to max dps, it was me finding out the limits of a build. Thats all

3 wrote:
Thirdly, this is a cooperative game. The other player in question clearly enjoys being a combat beatstick. You're not just stepping on his toes, you're breaking his foot, his ankle, and the rest of his leg, with your pet, and saying he shouldn't whine about it. That's... a poor attitude for a group game. Don't want to reign in your optimization? There's a variety of single player RPG's to choose from. Otherwise it becomes the "stand there and watch while I solve all of the problems" show. Like it or not, that's not really fun for everyone else involved.

That was the WHOLE points of the last thread. I didnt want to overshadow anyone, and needed some help on how to make it fun. This was supposed to be a tank, and lets recap. THIS HASNT HAPPENED YET

He just saw the numbers on paper, and took it hard. How i was planning on using it, wasnt how he thinks im ganna use it.

edit: And by the way... Ive played many sessions of this campaign, and in every single on i have takin the backseat support role. I dont think ive actually killed something yet. I roleplay alot, and take a non-factor role in combat. This is literally the FIRST time ive even hinted that i have potential to do more, and he gets pissy. Its not my fault, which when it happened i thought it was. The more i think about it, the more i realize theres other issues here.


I think you should keep thinking about it, but being assertive, trying to ser his point of view, and perhaps be open to the possibility that he is right


I'd really like to see the statblock for this juggernautank, I'm thinking of making something similar since our group is lacking in frontliners.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Srtz wrote:
This is literally the FIRST time ive even hinted that i have potential to do more, and he gets pissy.

That right there might be the problem. You've been sitting in the back, quietly working on building this golem and no one in your party knew about it until now? How long did it take you in game to make this thing? You never once mentioned it? They never once noticed you disappearing into your workshop for long hours? That's all perfectly fine. But that means you've been building a giant surprise for your party this entire time. It shouldn't be that big of stretch to see that some people are going to react poorly to that. Especially the one guy who your secret impacts the most.

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