What the heck, Paizo? I just found out about all the Promos I apparently have been missing out on.
1) I don't mean to complain... a lot... but why the heck do I have to buy Pathfinder Battles products - A GAME I DO NOT PLAY - (Iconic Heroes) in order to get Pathfinder ACG Cards? The last thing I want is a ton of miniatures I don't need cluttering up my house.
2) Why don't you sell these Promos as a pack, or include them in the subscription? I thought one of the guarantees of the subscription was to **get ALL the promos**. Here I am finding out there's like 18 promos I didn't even know about floating around. Feeling very jipped. $90 to get 18 cards and a bunch of miniatures I'll never use? Seems unreasonably high.
Mildly miffed.
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Ok the whole point of the miniatures is because a pretty large amount of the players I know are interested in using miniatures not the token cards to represent them in the game. And the aftermarket was rediculous. Also they are for role players who want the iconic for a decent price. If you don't want the miniatures look for someone who want them and help pay for the sets and take the cards. If that works. I've seen people on here selling just the cards.
I honestly prefer the roughly 1 inch base of the miniatures to the full sized card. The miniatures are actually pretty nice. As for the cards that come with the iconic hero sets... They're really good at the beginning of the game, but definitely not necessary later. I'm more miffed about the character decks. I didn't like any of the characters in them. I'm hopeful for the monk and paladin decks though.
I remember Vic Wertz actually saying explicitly that not all promos will come with the subscription.
Also, Pathfinder Battles isn't a game. Brendthomas is correct - one of the reasons Iconic Heroes was released was that a lot of people requested the ability to use the minis instead of the hero card to represent their character.
That being said, I'd love to have more OP-oriented promos or boons to encourage more OP play. Even if I have to use DriveThruRPG for on-demand printing.
Some insight into Vic's philosophy on promo cards here.
Thanks hawkmoon, that's exactly the thread I was thinking about.
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I'm not incredibly jazzed about the promo cards coming with something that I don't personally find very valuable, but I've been able to buy the minis, keep the cards, and then off-load the minis to someone else who does value them. Win-win - he gets something he values, I get something I value, and neither one pays full price.
Vic's philosophy is one I find really compelling. You don't have to fly half-way around the world or have a friend of a friend to get these promo cards - just be a customer of Paizo.com. It's a reasonable (and not unreasonable) amount of customer loyalty they're asking for in exchange for scratching the completionist's itch. The iconic minis might be slightly less reasonable than the subscription, but there are creative ways you can tailor the value proposition more to your liking.
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And remember, the promo cards are not required as part of the set. Neither the promos that come with the subscription nor the promos that are released with the Iconic Heroes sets. People that purchase their adventure decks, etc. from Amazon probably won't see those promos. However, some retail stores as well as the subscription will provide them. And as far as the Iconic Heroes sets, I am one of those that likes a physical representation of my character when moving from location to location rather than the token card. So the miniature is something I wanted. The promo cards that come with them is just a bonus.
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I will also add this, my first concern is that I love this game. I want it to stick around for years to come. When my 8, 5, 3 and in utero kids are old enough, I want to play it with them. To do that, Paizo will need to sustain and expand the customers buying it. The Iconic Heroes having promo cards helps with that. Some people are buying the Iconic Heroes just because they want the miniatures and they have never played the card game. But now they'll have some cards. Maybe some of them will say, "Hmmm... Maybe I'll give this card game a try. After all, I've got these free promo cards."
I'm sure that same philosophy is why Paizo sticks promo card in random orders. And it is probably why (if I'm reading this right) they gave everyone who came to Paizocon a free class deck even though not all of them play the card game.
It is cross promotional marketing. The Iconic Heroes product is targeted at two market segments: Card Game Players and Miniature Buyers. Like a Venn Diagram, those markets overlap. Paizo is hoping to expand that overlap. As a someone who wants this game to outlast me, I personally want to see those Miniature Buyers merge into the overlap segment. That is good for the longevity of PACG, which is good for me.
Granted, a miniature buyer that doesn't play the card game probably has less sticker shock when they see these, since thinking of the price as if it were just for 6 miniatures is a lot more palatable then thinking of the price as if it were just for 6 cards. But the price is because both products are there. As others have said, you can probably sell off the miniatures if you don't want them, and pretty easily. There were even people that had inquired whether they could buy just one of the miniatures instead of all six. So you might even be able to sell them off individually. If you can get about $3 per miniature, you have made back a significant portion of the cost.
I feel where you are coming from, wanting every promo. It was why I originally didn't subscribe during Rise of the Runelords. Having come to the game a few months after the release, I knew getting every promo would be hard to do. And I also knew that if I got one, I'd want them all. (I ended up subscribing to make sure I got a first printing to finish it out with a single printing.) The good thing is, these aren't one time promos. They will be in those boxes as long as supplies last.
But even being the completionist I am, I'd be willing to not get everything if it meant that more people would discover the game and enjoy it just as much as I do. Part of me looks at that post about promo cards in random orders and free class decks and thinks "Aw man! Why couldn't I have gotten an extra promo in my order?" Or "Man, if only I could have gone to Paizocon and gotten a free class deck!" (Which I'm sure is exactly what Paizo wants me to think!) But another part of me (and I hope it is the bigger part) thinks, "I hope some of the Paizocon people gave the card game a shot and went home having purchased a Base Set and Character Add-on Deck. And it is the same thing with these Iconic Heroes Sets.
Yes, hawkmoon, they did give everyone who came to Paizocon a free class deck (among other swag).
You should come to PaizoCon next year :)
You should come to PaizoCon next year :)
We should take up a collection to send Hawkmoon to Paizocon. I'd contribute.
I think the miniatures add to the game and it is easier to move my mini from location to location. They take up very little space and the quality is great. I'm just irradiated they don't have them all ready right now! Me waving money at Paizo. :p
So, I have to find and paint the missing ones - I do it because I have to, not as a miniature painting hobby. And bring on those for the class decks as well. No one wants to play with a standie. My son needs Adowyn...a problem here - a preorder in, but I need it now! Looked for a Disney Merida, but alas, all too big and too little girl. I did custom for Ranzak and will again for Ekkie, but I would rather Paizo made them available.
To me the cards are just a bonus. I also would not care if the cards were sold/given out separately.
I agree, and also disagree with many comments on this thread.
A) I shouldn't *have* to try to sell off pieces of a game I don't want in order to get pieces of a game I do want. I'm not going to split hairs over this, but suffice it to say that there are extremely few games that force you to go to great lengths to get the things you want to play with - it's common courtesy. If I wanted random junk, I'd go buy random junk - this isn't Magic The Gathering with getting the right rares for my deck.
B) I don't think the price is right to say "Oh the miniatures are just bonus!" or "Oh the cards are just bonus!" You're paying the high price because of cards AND minis - you have to want both to buy this product. And I don't.
C) It isn't that hard for paizo to alter their strategy a bit for those who are completionists, but also aren't hoarders. I'm a completionist, but as stated by others, these promos included in the iconic heroes don't make or break the game. Charging me $90 for 18 promos is unreasonable. But if you want to sell me promo card bundles or charge me extra for them in my subscription with no miniatures, I'd consider paying $45. Now, I'm no mathematician (well - I sort of am) but I'd say $2.50 per card is a pretty reasonable take for Paizo, without opening up the whole third-party resale market who seem to think $10-$20 per promo is fair, which it isn't.
D) If I buy the iconic heroes, does anyone want to buy the minis off me? =(
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Regarding C, let's be fair, they aren't charging you $90 for 18 promos. To say they are is like saying you buy the Character Add-On deck for one character and saying Paizo is charging you $20 for one character. Just because you don't want everything in a product doesn't change the fact that the whole product is there.
For what it's worth, most of the people I know who have purchased Iconic Heroes miniatures sets are GMs who purchased them specifically for use in Pathfinder Society, where the Iconics are the pregens. All of the people I know who have bought them play the RPG in some form. So I've always thought of it as a cross-promotional thing, raising awareness of the card game to people playing the RPG. (Your local PFS night might be a good place to talk to folks about splitting the cards and minis. :)
Otherwise, if you feel a need to get all the cards, there's always eBay.
FWIW, I'm a reasonably consistent Paizo-product purchaser and this strategy irks me also. Like the OP, I felt kind of "pushed" into buying a product I dont want because it was bundled with a product I do.
Obviously, I'm a free agent and I wasnt really pushed - I dont think there's anything ethically wrong with the strategy (perhaps the iconic heroes line wouldnt be viable without it). I nonetheless wish that the card game promos were tied to card game products.
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We should take up a collection to send Hawkmoon to Paizocon.
NEVER!!! Hopefully Iomedae will protect us from such a catastrophe! Have you ever thought of the consequences you fool!
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A number of games have promos for other games in them. I just got King of Tokyo and its expansions, inside one of the expansions is a promo for King of New York.
Now a KoNY player that doesn't own the other game might feel upset that they have to buy it to get the promo, but really its just cross promotion. I'm all for that.
What I hate are Kickstarters that do cross-promotion promos like that and you can only get them for backing the KS. Then its annoying because you end up with a single card costing $50 on eBay.
I think I can name the worst offender on that front Andrew !
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'B) I don't think the price is right to say "Oh the miniatures are just bonus!" or "Oh the cards are just bonus!" You're paying the high price because of cards AND minis - you have to want both to buy this product. And I don't.'
When I bought the Iconics I didn't even realize there were Promo cards so it was a pleasant surprise. I bought them to have minis for the PACG ROTR. My 8yo bought a plastic Amiri and so my daughter really wanted a Lini (with the snow leopard as a total bonus).
Chief Technical Officer
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I think I can name the worst offender on that front Andrew !
I'm going to go with Mayfair's 1995 SimCity CCG, which lasted about a year but nevertheless had well over 100 promo cards. There were unique cards for specific distributors, specific retailers, specific conventions, inserted into specific other Mayfair products, distributed with industry magazines and catalogs... and top Mayfair employees even had their own individual cards such as "Friends of Peter," which you could only get if you were—that's right—friends with Peter Bromley.
Oh My Gosh Vic ! That was diabolically Byzantine of them.
No, he was talking about Kickstarter. And I will draw the curtain as I know the gentlemen in question. But their KS practices annoy the *&^*(&%(*&%(*&%^ out of me.
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The worst offender on that one that I can think of is Boss Monster. The rarity of their promo cards is the single reason that I have not and never will purchase that game.
I have no problem with a game doing KS only promos for their own games, its when other companies get involved that it is annoying.
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Last Ranzak song:
Me evil gooooblin
Me do me ouwn promo carts
Filled wiv magic and shiny piglets
Me post zem on drivesrou so me make you just plain jilous
But you cannot get zem
Cauz zem art Ranzak promo carts
And me evil gooooblin
I'm a HUGE fan of the regular promo cards that come with the subscription. For the longest time, I was buying these cards individually online and eventually got my own subscription for the sole reason of promos. Given this, I'd say Paizo's strategy is working.
I don't have any issues with the ICONIC promos being included with mini's or other marketing strategies. My problem with the ICONIC promos is that a few of them seem massively imbalanced when compared to other promos (and other cards in general)...some are even game breaking in my opinion. I don't think the ICONIC promos scale in power level as good as the other promos do.
my $.02
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Hey All,
I wanna jump in and add that this Promo card strategy is brutal to us completionists.
I just got done dropping nearly $150 to pick up the promo cards to nearly complete out the sets. And I'm still looking for a Goblin Lockpick...
This is insane. I can understand the allure of inciting interest in your product, but all these cards have done is leave holes in collections for many people in terms of game play.
If the idea is reward people for their loyalty for doing things like subscribing and what have you, fine, print a special edition of the card, with no unique powers or rules. Then sell a non-special edition version to those of us who'd like to have those cards to complete the game.
And as for rewarding subscribers in the first place, I'm glad you've found a way to build recurring revenue, but please try to consider those of us who want to see our local hobby stores stay in business and so shop *there* to support *them* while still supporting *you* by purchasing *your* products!
All I'm saying is that there are smarter ways to generate excitement and create product interest than by penalizing completionist gamers and forcing into existence an aftermarket where price gouging is the norm.
And if you don't believe that aftermarket exists please refer to the Ranzak pack currently listed at $46 on eBay -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pathfinder-Adventure-Card-Game-Skull-and-Shackles-R ANZAK-Promo-Expansion-Bonus-/121668196561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=it em1c53fd58d1
That's practically the price of a base set for a singular character! And you better believe that the same will happen with Ekkie!
- Zesban
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Okay, I'm a subscriber because I wanted to make sure I got the promos without issue.
But here's the thing, my FLGS is getting the promos from the distributor. Ranzak and Ekkie were available for free at the same store. You can buy Ranzak (and soon Ekkie) directly from Paizo for far less than eBay is offering. So I'm going to call bullsh*t on this reply. Paizo gives distributors the promos to be handed out for free with Adventure decks amd base sets. It's up to your LGS to make sure they're getting them. If your LGS participated in Free RPG Day, Ranzak was available and now Ekkie.
Don't start blaming Paizo for putting out promos for their game because you're having issues completing your set. My friend that buys only from our FLGS has ALL the promos that I have from subscribing.
So if you're complained about promos, then you need to find something else to complain about. The promos are free to both subscribers and people that buy at stores. It really depends if their distributors are on the up-n-up and handing out the promos they're given that should go out with the product. As far as Ranzak and Ekkie, if you have a local store that participated in FRPG Day, it was also a freebie to you.
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And if you don't believe that aftermarket exists please refer to the Ranzak pack currently listed at $46 on eBay -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pathfinder-Adventure-Card-Game-Skull-and-Shackles-R ANZAK-Promo-Expansion-Bonus-/121668196561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=it em1c53fd58d1
That's practically the price of a base set for a singular character! And you better believe that the same will happen with Ekkie!
- Zesban
Gotta say anyone that would buy that on eBay is an idiot since it's available for $4 on Paizo itself ..
From my understanding, Paizo also sends promos to distributors but they cannot guarantee those distributors will send the promos to your FLGS. So far, I have been able to acquire promos from my FLGS for recent releases at the time. Now I have opted for subscription to secure that I get the promos.
This is like complaining you don't get a Black Lotus on your Dragons of Tarkir box (MTG). "I have to have it, I'm a completionist, and it costs too much to buy now. Why are you doing this?!?!"
This is nothing like Magic The Gathering. The cards aren't random.
Don't get me wrong, of course the cards are random the games aren't the same, etc. I'm talking about the concept of must have that certain card, I didn't get it, so I have to pay extra money to get it. That concept. Not the game.
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Some people want to have every card, every version. I find collecting every card (or every comic book issue, or every figure, Pokemon, whatever) to be a lot of fun...IF the level of effort required to obtain isn't too high. If effort required is too high, then I simply choose not to play "the collecting game" - and this usually means I don't buy or play the game itself. The instances where I decide to invest in spite of somewhat high effort are very, very rare (only one that I can think of in my entire lifetime, and I don't see that being repeated - ever).
It's perfectly legitimate "game" to play, but then, if you want to "win", you have to choose a winning strategy. IMO Paizo has provided a very reasonable strategy to "win" this game.
My friend that buys only from our FLGS has ALL the promos that I have from subscribing.
What a bulls****!
There are several promos you ONLY obtain when u r going to a Paizo convention or when you have a PACG subscription!
I will give you examples:
Convention promos were Fire Sneeze and Tempation of the Big Die.
Subscription promos (exclusive!!!!) was Blessing of Zogmugot.
MY ADViSE: go n get a subscription n you will obtain all promo cards there are for 101% sure. Believe me!
@Vic, will there be again a subscription only promo card for WotR???
Organized Play organizers/officers get promo cards too. I don't have all of the S&S promos, but the ones I have are about evenly split between "came with an Adventure Deck not bought from Paizo" and "were a gift from the folks who run Guild games in our area". One of those gifts was the Blessing.
I also have a Fire Sneeze from last year's Gen Con, for whatever that's worth.
Organized Play organizers/officers get promo cards too. I don't have all of the S&S promos, but the ones I have are about evenly split between "came with an Adventure Deck not bought from Paizo" and "were a gift from the folks who run Guild games in our area". One of those gifts was the Blessing.
To my knowledge, that isn't true. If you got a promo card from an Organized Play organizer/VO, they got it from other channels. For instance, I received a bunch of Goblin Keelhaulin' promo cards last GenCon from playing OP adventures there, and distributed them to players / other organizers.
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Organized Play organizers/officers get promo cards too.
If only that were true ...
All of the promotional cards I have managed to acquire I got the same way that anybody else can get them - picking them up from stores on Free RPG Day, subscribing to the ACG, going to a convention, or buying "Iconic Heroes" miniatures.
I gave away a "Ranzak" a few weeks ago, but that came from my own loot.
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Organized Play organizers/officers get promo cards too. I don't have all of the S&S promos, but the ones I have are about evenly split between "came with an Adventure Deck not bought from Paizo" and "were a gift from the folks who run Guild games in our area". One of those gifts was the Blessing.
I also have a Fire Sneeze from last year's Gen Con, for whatever that's worth.
We don't get any extra cards as officers. We get the same promos as every other subscriber, and only if we actually subscribe.
Maybe it was convention leftovers then? They said they had been given a bunch to hand out.
Edit: Heh, those Paizo ninjas.
Hey All,
I wanna jump in and add that this Promo card strategy is brutal to us completionists.
I just got done dropping nearly $150 to pick up the promo cards to nearly complete out the sets. And I'm still looking for a Goblin Lockpick...
This is insane. I can understand the allure of inciting interest in your product, but all these cards have done is leave holes in collections for many people in terms of game play.
If the idea is reward people for their loyalty for doing things like subscribing and what have you, fine, print a special edition of the card, with no unique powers or rules. Then sell a non-special edition version to those of us who'd like to have those cards to complete the game.
And as for rewarding subscribers in the first place, I'm glad you've found a way to build recurring revenue, but please try to consider those of us who want to see our local hobby stores stay in business and so shop *there* to support *them* while still supporting *you* by purchasing *your* products!
All I'm saying is that there are smarter ways to generate excitement and create product interest than by penalizing completionist gamers and forcing into existence an aftermarket where price gouging is the norm.
And if you don't believe that aftermarket exists please refer to the Ranzak pack currently listed at $46 on eBay -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pathfinder-Adventure-Card-Game-Skull-and-Shackles-R ANZAK-Promo-Expansion-Bonus-/121668196561?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=it em1c53fd58d1
That's practically the price of a base set for a singular character! And you better believe that the same will happen with Ekkie!
- Zesban
Unfortunately I cannot go back and remove this post. Please consider this a "courtesy removal".
- Zesban