An alternative to Charisma?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

So we are starting a new campaign, Neutral-aligned, and the GM is considering alternative uses for Charisma; or more accurately, making Charisma a more plausible and combat-related statistic for all characters, and failing that, removing the Charisma statistic entirely, and I'm not all that opposed to it, since this would remove a possible dumpstat, and there are several successful games that don't have a statistic like Charisma (though most of them are a lot more combat-centric, i.e. MMOs).

Although this has very obvious implications for classes, skills, etc. that are Charisma-based, we've already solved the idea for swapping it over to one of the other mental statistics; i.e. Bards and Sorcerers cast via Intelligence, Paladins and Oracles cast with Wisdom, etc. So removing them can be an option, though the GM doesn't want to go that route if he doesn't have to.

All that's left is to find a more combat-related use for Charisma (if possible); one idea I came up with is to nerf Intelligence by creating a "Skill" stat, meaning the Skill modifier alters the amount of skills a character gets (just the same way as Intelligence does); this could lead characters like Rogues and Bards and Rangers who have a lot of Skill Points per level able to dump it (like they probably would anyway), whereas characters with lower skill points per level would want to invest in a couple ranks of this stuff anyway. It also nerfs the powerlevel of Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards down a fair amount since, if they want their skills usage, will need to split their stat investments. (It might not affects Bards so much if they're primarily being a support-type.)

However, that's the only big idea I've come up with, so I'm coming to the community to help brainstorm some ideas to propose to the GM.

Is my "Skill" stat a good idea? Are there things that you think I could tweak? Do you have other possible uses in mind? Any help would be appreciated; thanks!

[Deadmanwalking]

My quick and dirty fix for Charisma is to allow either it or Wisdom to be used on Will Saves at the player's choice. This combined with it's other uses works well to make it a nice stat that people want.

This does tend to lead people to dump either Charisma or Wisdom a lot, since having both high is rarely optimal, but that actually fits a majority of fictional characters quite well.

Personally, I don't let Paladins double-dip Cha for Will Saves, though if they select it and then apply Divine Grace they can avoid suffering a Wis penalty to it even after dumping Wis otherwise, which is nice, I guess.

[Corvino]

For any non-Int-based class Int is already just a "skill" stat mechanically, apart perhaps for Combat Expertise prereqs. As for Wizards, Maguses (Magi?) etc - their power rarely comes from skill points, more from casting progression.

If your GM wants to make Charisma combat relevant then how about running a campaign with performance combat elements? This way you can have a material reason to invest in it, with appropriate benefits.

[avr]

I've seen charisma used to determine how lucky the characters are - the characters got a number of rerolls equal to charisma mod per session. A negative mod gave the GM rolls to use against them. This was in D&D 3.0, and charisma was important to rather fewer characters than in PF.

[Dave Justus]

One thing I've toyed with doing, although I haven't tried it yet, is changing saving throws to be multi-stat dependent. Fort becomes the average of STR and CON, REF is the average of DEX and INT and Will is the average of WIS and CHR.

This makes it so dumping any stat has negative consequences, and rewards more balanced point buy.

[Chess Pwn]

you could do something like the artful dodge feat but with charisma.

One thing to watch out for with any change to charisma are Oracles. They can already cast off charisma, get charisma to AC, get charisma to saving throws, get charisma to initiative. And with a pali dip charisma to attack rolls. So making it easier to do something or making it do more just makes this build even better. Just something to make sure you account for with whatever you decide to do.

[blackbloodtroll]

Everyone gets the Amateur Swashbuckler feat, as a bonus feat, or an at will 0 level Spell if they have a Charisma of 11 or higher.

Now, having a better charisma has benefits in, and out, of combat.

[Cavall]

Charisma gets you out of combat and into bed. Making it the greatest stat you could ever need.

[blackbloodtroll]

I suggest not making Charisma the stat to max, or the DM will punish you.

Simply provide some incentive.

Go too far, and much will go wrong.

[Helcack]

Make the game have important social elements, or have it actually determine your character's physical attractiveness and give bonuses in that category such as starting attitude increases, preferential treatment by enemies in combat and the like(then everyone other than trogdor the orc of smashingtown won't want to dump it so they don't look ugly... This does have the side effect of everyone getting more attractive as they get older, but hey that's an interesting thing you could have in your campaign.)

[blackbloodtroll]

Forcing PCs that are good at Social Skills, without high charisma, to invest in charisma, or suffer the DM's wrath, seems just mean, and pointless.

Inquisitors and Empiricist Investigator shouldn't be forced to be MAD PC's, just to not jimmy the DM's drawers.

[EpicFail]

I never thought about it before but Charisma, from what I remember about the explanation for Oracles and Sorcerers, is the innate spark of inspiration. From there it would make sense to have say a Zen Archer working off Charisma. It would be interesting to see a front line fighter type do something similar- a not so distant cousin from Swashbuckler.

So if the goal is "making Charisma a more plausible and combat-related statistic for all characters" that could be a start.

warning = Since Wisdom feeds will saves and perception skill, that could hurt mechanically.

[Kazaan]

Charisma's root is Confidence. It's confidence in yourself that drives all the derived affects of the Charisma score. I'd just let it provide a morale modifier to your attack stat. The caveats are as follows:

1) You can't increase the governing ability score by more than double. So if your Str modifier is +3 and your Cha modifier is +4, you only gain +3 to your Str modifier.

2) If your Cha modifier is negative, it is a "negative typed bonus" of the morale type and, since only the highest bonus of the same type applies, you'll suffer a penalty from Cha, but any morale bonus will override it (ie. the Bless spell). To illustrate, a character with -1 Cha and +3 Str modifiers would net +2 to attack, but throw in the Bless spell for +1 and they now completely lose the -1 from Cha and net +4 instead.

[Bandw2]

I've considered making the saves change a bit, along with how they're used, but i haven't done it yet in my game.

the lowest of 2 stats in a category is what you use for your save
fort - str or con
reflex - dex or wisdom
will - int or chr

this came about because to me
physical - mental
str - chr(charisma is your mental ability to do things, you can make people follow you easier and make the universe follow you easier as well, it just seems to fit)
dex - wis(Wisdom based on the skills attached to it, is your ability to react to things on a mental level and think through them or process them quickly, such as perception or survival)
con - int(Intelligence is your ability to remember and ability to resist mental trauma from information overload, this means it covers your minds stability, just as con covers your bodies stability.)

also making every caster need multiple mental stats to cast. bonus spells per day - int. DCs - chr. required caster stat to perform - wisdom. this would make true master casters something much rarer. (also the option of rotating them for different kind of casters to make them feel different. divines use wisdom for bonus spells, charisma for required stats and int for DCs)

[kestral287]

Kazaan wrote:

Charisma's root is Confidence. It's confidence in yourself that drives all the derived affects of the Charisma score. I'd just let it provide a morale modifier to your attack stat. The caveats are as follows:

1) You can't increase the governing ability score by more than double. So if your Str modifier is +3 and your Cha modifier is +4, you only gain +3 to your Str modifier.

2) If your Cha modifier is negative, it is a "negative typed bonus" of the morale type and, since only the highest bonus of the same type applies, you'll suffer a penalty from Cha, but any morale bonus will override it (ie. the Bless spell). To illustrate, a character with -1 Cha and +3 Str modifiers would net +2 to attack, but throw in the Bless spell for +1 and they now completely lose the -1 from Cha and net +4 instead.

You just broke the Oracle.

That's the hard part I'm having in trying to pitch ideas here. Natively, Cha is useless or close to it. But if you're a class that uses Cha, you can really, really use Cha.

[Hmm]

I don't understand why everyone dumps on poor Charisma. It is my favorite stat. I cannot dump it. I often wind up going with Charisma builds simply because I love Charisma and social skills so much... but I'll invest in charisma even in classes that don't call for it.

[blackbloodtroll]

I bounce around with high and low charisma.

I actually like roleplaying both.

Being forced to played one, and, more or less, attacked by the DM for playing the other, would greatly irritate me, if not outright anger me.

In the end, find a balance, that makes charisma relevant, but doesn't severely punish those who don't want it, and not make charisma the only stat that matters.

[Vagabond?]

My proposal is something more simplistic than what everyone else is sugesting, though may be more complicated.

I have two sugestions: One is to grant a pool of Action Points per week up to their Charisma mod. They can transfer these action points to Hero Points at a 2-1 rate, and can regain action points by either allowing a critical failure upon rolling a natural one, or by doing exceedingly well roleplaying. They can store up to their Cha mod in Action points, or the Cha mod in Hero Points.

Alternatively (Though this is not quite the most thought out idea), grant them the ability to learn up to their Cha mod in Path of War manuvers.

[mplindustries]

Yeah, I like Charisma. The stat I hate and think is pointless is Wisdom.

Literally no other RPG I've seen has a Wisdom stat (ok, well, one--Artesia--but it's different and they have like 15 attributes).

The origins of Wisdom bug the hell out of me. Way back, in development, there were 5 stats. Intelligence covered all magic. Then someone decided they wanted it to be possible to create the (completely modern) trope of a dumb guy with strong faith, so, you wouldn't necessary be super smart to be super pious. Ignoring thousands of years of human history where priests were universally the smartest people on the planet, or that without clergy there would basically be no modern scholarship, they added a sixth stat, which was basically just Piety. However, that's too narrow in focus. All the other stats did something in a general sense, not just for specific mechanics, so, they kind of came up with Wisdom as the common-sense-street-smarts version of intelligence. I find that utterly ridiculous--I feel like common sense should just be the player's anyway.

This is getting ranty, so, the point is this:
Don't get rid of Charisma. Get rid of Wisdom. Give the willpower stuff to Charisma. Give the perception stuff to Intelligence. Problem solved. This is how 90% of other games handle it already.

Savage Worlds, for example, has Strength, Agility, Vigor, Smarts, and Spirit. The first three are basically directly Str, Dex, and Con. Smarts is Intelligence and covers perception. Spirit is the social and willpower stat.

World of Darkness has 9 stats, and Perception is a function of Wits+Composure while willpower is Composure+Resolve, both of which are kind of like part of Int + part of Cha.

Even in SKR's upcoming game, Five Moons, he drops the stats to 5: Str, Dex, Con, Int, and Psyche, which covers social+willpower, and I only assume Int gets the perception stuff (his blogs haven't covered that yet).

So, basically everyone but D&D itself understands that Wisdom is dumb and should go away.

[Kazaan]

kestral287 wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

Charisma's root is Confidence. It's confidence in yourself that drives all the derived affects of the Charisma score. I'd just let it provide a morale modifier to your attack stat. The caveats are as follows:

1) You can't increase the governing ability score by more than double. So if your Str modifier is +3 and your Cha modifier is +4, you only gain +3 to your Str modifier.

2) If your Cha modifier is negative, it is a "negative typed bonus" of the morale type and, since only the highest bonus of the same type applies, you'll suffer a penalty from Cha, but any morale bonus will override it (ie. the Bless spell). To illustrate, a character with -1 Cha and +3 Str modifiers would net +2 to attack, but throw in the Bless spell for +1 and they now completely lose the -1 from Cha and net +4 instead.

You just broke the Oracle.

That's the hard part I'm having in trying to pitch ideas here. Natively, Cha is useless or close to it. But if you're a class that uses Cha, you can really, really use Cha.

Actually, this method is most useful for balanced attackers more than straight Cha characters. Remember that even with a +10 Cha modifier, if your Str/Dex mod is only +2, you only get an additional +2 on attack rolls. Conversely, a fighter with 14 Str and 14 Cha spends 10 points for +4 attack bonus while 18 Str and 7 Cha is 13 points and only yields +2 attack (but +4 damage compared to +2) damage.

[kestral287]

Kazaan wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

Charisma's root is Confidence. It's confidence in yourself that drives all the derived affects of the Charisma score. I'd just let it provide a morale modifier to your attack stat. The caveats are as follows:

1) You can't increase the governing ability score by more than double. So if your Str modifier is +3 and your Cha modifier is +4, you only gain +3 to your Str modifier.

2) If your Cha modifier is negative, it is a "negative typed bonus" of the morale type and, since only the highest bonus of the same type applies, you'll suffer a penalty from Cha, but any morale bonus will override it (ie. the Bless spell). To illustrate, a character with -1 Cha and +3 Str modifiers would net +2 to attack, but throw in the Bless spell for +1 and they now completely lose the -1 from Cha and net +4 instead.

You just broke the Oracle.

That's the hard part I'm having in trying to pitch ideas here. Natively, Cha is useless or close to it. But if you're a class that uses Cha, you can really, really use Cha.

Actually, this method is most useful for balanced attackers more than straight Cha characters. Remember that even with a +10 Cha modifier, if your Str/Dex mod is only +2, you only get an additional +2 on attack rolls. Conversely, a fighter with 14 Str and 14 Cha spends 10 points for +4 attack bonus while 18 Str and 7 Cha is 13 points and only yields +2 attack (but +4 damage compared to +2) damage.

Right. So this is what happens.

Right now, an Oracle who's specc'd for Cha really only cares about two stats: their Cha and their Str. That means that these two stats are going to be relatively good. The amounts can vary, based on build-specifics, but we're probably looking at a balanced setup or a Cha-heavy setup.

In a Cha-heavy setup, you're probably adding +2 to hit off the bat-- this means that the class is as accurate as most full-BAB classes. This will scale upward slowly, probably capping out at a mere +5 with a Belt, meaning the class is about as accurate as a 3/4ths BAB class using their accuracy booster, or the less accurate full BAB classes (Cavalier without an accuracy-boosting Order, for example). And that's before their spells-- when those kick in, a combat-focused and not strength focused Oracle will be able to box with a full BAB class no problem, while still being a 9th level caster.

If the game ran high enough for Wishes to be a realistic option, the bonus to hit from this rule is a +7, which makes an Oracle obnoxiously accurate. When they are, quite literally, not trying to be.

In a balanced setup, we can probably expect a +3 off the bat (16 Str start), scaling up to about a +7 (+3 headband, probably +1 levels) and a +9-10 when Wishes are an option.

Let's note for a moment that +10 to hit is what Barbarians get, at level 20, with Mighty Rage and Reckless Stance going. +10 to hit is the epitome of what an active class ability will grant in accuracy. And you're giving that to the Oracle for free. Any kind of self-buffing (easy for them) makes the Oracle the most accurate class in the game, and that translates easily into a very hard-hitting class.

And this is not building an Oracle to abuse the setup-- this is building a Cha-centric Oracle under the current rules and slotting this system in.

Oracles really do not need an easy +10 to hit. They do just fine. What this rule would push is everybody to run a Cha-friendly martial or fall behind, and we really do not have enough Cha-friendly martials to create diversity there. Oracles, Bloodragers, Daring Champions... there's the Eldritch Scion, but it's terrible, and the Swashbuckler, but especially here the Champion is beating it up and taking its lunch money.

[Zhayne]

I recently experimented with removing Charisma, and renaming it Power. Basically, all Charisma modifies is spell saves/spell-like saves, bonus spells, and the UMD skill. This adds some MAD to classes like clerics and wizards (a good thing IMHO), though they still need INT/WIS for their max spell level known.

I split the other six CHA-skills among INT and WIS; I remember I had 3 each, but can't recall the exact split offhand.

Yes, this does mean that non-spellcasters can dump it and dump it hard ... but don't they already do that? You can also throw in some magic items that go off the user's Charisma for effects/DCs/times per day, rather than the item properties.

This also has the benefit of not imposing RP issues on you; nobody goes 'your charisma sucks, stop talking nice' or whatever.

So far, it's worked quite well.

[rainzax]

I give everybody a free version of Leadership (caveat: NPCs must be recruited from the world though), and so, CHA determines how powerful or extensive your network can be. Which includes a cohort you can drag into combat situations. Especially the more cohorts that die.

[KestrelZ]

I don't know if ding another mechanic would be anything I would personally try, it seems the only way to make Charisma more important.

Perhaps make a system where Charisma is a statistic used for "social combat" (modifiers used to influence people or reputation). Create a system where social interaction is treated as combat is, with "saves" and "hit points" (social points?). This will make Charisma more important, as well as focus on social skills and such.

There may be a third party publication that already covers this, I am not certain.

[Thanael]

+1 . Grant every PC the Leadership feat for free at level 7 but require them to work to actually gain a cohort or followers. (See this blog for how and why).

Or get the Leadership Handbook for more intricate Leadership rules applying to everyone.

Also introduce psychological combat 3pp rules which give CHA based combat options.

Alex Augunas ftw.

PS: Social combat rules are a good idea too.

[glass]

Since, as someone mentioned upthread, Charisma is about confidence: Give initiative to Charisma. After all, confident people act quicker.

_
glass.

[kestral287]

glass wrote:

Since, as someone mentioned upthread, Charisma is about confidence: Give initiative to Charisma. After all, confident people act quicker.

_
glass.

A feat already does that, and hasn't particularly inspired Cha-heavy builds unless the build can leverage Cha elsewhere (Paladin, Oracle).

[Doomed Hero]

Using Charism for Will saves is a fairly common house rule. Given that Charisma is described as force of personality and is a measure of how strong a person's sense of self and identity is, it makes sense to me.

Just making that fix would go a long ways toward eliminating the dump-stat problem.

[blackbloodtroll]

If you go too far, you are basically playing a different system.

A number of these suggestions make Charisma, the only stat that matters.

Going that way, basically destroys certain classes and races.

Dwarven Inquisitor with a Charisma of 7? KILL IT WITH FIRE!!

This shouldn't be the approach.

Even if you tried to negate this effect, with even more houserules, you will end up with a pretty big knot of houserules, that your players will have to untangle, just to play at all.

I have been there for that. Eventually, the players just would rather play a different system, or not at all. Having to constantly ask how anything works, and being consistently confused is not a fun time.

So, for best results, minor changes, and/or boons to make charisma more relevant, or just switch systems.

[Morzadian]

Importance needs to be placed on Charisma, not have it wiped out entirely.

Make things more expensive for low Charisma characters, get NPCs to give them a hard time.

Run those neutral low charisma characters out of town, throw rotten food at them, make wanted dead or alive signs and have a party of bounty hunters be on the hunt for them.

Exile them from certain cities, have bane weapons named after them and never give them props for saving innocent commoners from deadly goblin attacks. Make sure the lazy and incompetent mayor gets all the credit.

Ah Charisma is looking better already.

[blackbloodtroll]

Morzadian wrote:

Importance needs to be placed on Charisma, not have it wiped out entirely.

Make things more expensive for low Charisma characters, get NPCs to give them a hard time.

Run those neutral low charisma characters out of town, throw rotten food at them, make wanted dead or alive signs and have a party of bounty hunters be on the hunt for them.

Exile them from certain cities, have bane weapons named after them and never give them props for saving innocent commoners from deadly goblin attacks. Make sure the lazy and incompetent mayor gets all the credit.

Ah Charisma is looking better already.

That still rides the "F**K YOU!" to anyone without high charisma.

Unless, you are just joking.

[EpicFail]

Importance needs to be placed on making characters like I feel they should be made.

Make things more expensive for characters I don't approve of, get NPCs to give them a hard time.

Run those bad-fun-incorrect characters out of town, throw rotten food at them, make wanted dead or alive signs and have a party of bounty hunters be on the hunt for them.

Exile them from certain cities, have bane weapons named after them and never give them props for saving innocent commoners from deadly goblin attacks. Make sure the lazy and incompetent mayor gets all the credit.

Ah making guys my way is looking better already.

------------------------------------------------------------
Or I suppose we could take the o.p.'s points seriously. As several posters have pointed out, exchanging/ purposely blurring the roles of Charisma and Wisdom seems like a good way to do it. Thematically and mechanically challenging, but an interesting path.

[GreenDragon1133]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Morzadian wrote:

Importance needs to be placed on Charisma, not have it wiped out entirely.

Make things more expensive for low Charisma characters, get NPCs to give them a hard time.

Run those neutral low charisma characters out of town, throw rotten food at them, make wanted dead or alive signs and have a party of bounty hunters be on the hunt for them.

Exile them from certain cities, have bane weapons named after them and never give them props for saving innocent commoners from deadly goblin attacks. Make sure the lazy and incompetent mayor gets all the credit.

Ah Charisma is looking better already.

That still rides the "F**K YOU!" to anyone without high charisma.

Unless, you are just joking.

What happens if you dump stat STR? Encumbrance. Poor Climbing, Attacks.

What About CON? Poor Fortitude and HP.
WIS? Poor Will Saves and blind as a bat.
INT? No Skills, only speak Common - which is not a real language in most settings, but a way to seek food and lodging if you don't speak the local tongue.
DEX? low AC for non-tanks, poor Reflex Saves, Stealth.

Why should characters with poor CHA be coddled and not penalized for being unlikeable?

AS to the OP:
It depends on the kind of game you want to play. If everyone involved wants to run a tactical dungeon crawl, do away with CHA (or just play 4E). If players want to Roleplay, not just kill things then the GM needs to make certain to use the rules for social interaction. There are several examples of ways to use the Stat/related skills above - some of which are actually in the books, but are ignored because they aren't in the combat chapter.

I don't run PF (only play it), but the system I most often run (TORG/Masterbook), outside of combat the 5 most commonly used skills (out of a list of over 50 skills) are Find and Deduction (Perception based), Streetwise (Mind based originally, and in my games but based on the Spirit/Confidence attribute in another edition), and Charm and Persuasion (both Charisma based).

Outside of a combat situation CHA is important. It determines base attitudes of NPCs, it is used to negotiate with them, gain friends and influence people, etc. And in Combat it has uses as well - Intimidate is CHA-based in PF. Shaken - Saves -2, not as dramatic as Panicked, until they miss a Reflex save against the Wizard's Fireball...

[blackbloodtroll]

GreenDragon1133 wrote:

What happens if you dump stat STR? Encumbrance. Poor Climbing, Attacks.

What About CON? Poor Fortitude and HP.
WIS? Poor Will Saves and blind as a bat.
INT? No Skills, only speak Common - which is not a real language in most settings, but a way to seek food and lodging if you don't speak the local tongue.
DEX? low AC for non-tanks, poor Reflex Saves, Stealth.

Why should characters with poor CHA be coddled and not penalized for being unlikeable?

You are missing the point.

What if each of those scores had additional penalties, including the DM going out of his way to screw with you?

Balancing the implements used to promote charisma's role, is what I am advocating.

Picking on players because they didn't play the PCs the DM, wanted, the way they wanted, and in contrast, giving overwhelming rewards to those who "play ball" is something I am opposed to.

Hell, nobody even mentioned dumping.

You just assumed, and jumped right into to attacking anyone who dares disagree with your personal view, which isn't exactly clear, even though that undefined view, isn't being directly attacked.

If you want to just stick your nose in blindly, looking to start a fight, go to 4chan.

[Morzadian]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

GreenDragon1133 wrote:

What happens if you dump stat STR? Encumbrance. Poor Climbing, Attacks.

What About CON? Poor Fortitude and HP.
WIS? Poor Will Saves and blind as a bat.
INT? No Skills, only speak Common - which is not a real language in most settings, but a way to seek food and lodging if you don't speak the local tongue.
DEX? low AC for non-tanks, poor Reflex Saves, Stealth.

Why should characters with poor CHA be coddled and not penalized for being unlikeable?

You are missing the point.

What if each of those scores had additional penalties, including the DM going out of his way to screw with you?

Balancing the implements used to promote charisma's role, is what I am advocating.

Picking on players because they didn't play the PCs the DM, wanted, the way they wanted, and in contrast, giving overwhelming rewards to those who "play ball" is something I am opposed to.

Hell, nobody even mentioned dumping.

You just assumed, and jumped right into to attacking anyone who dares disagree with your personal view, which isn't exactly clear, even though that undefined view, isn't being directly attacked.

If you want to just stick your nose in blindly, looking to start a fight, go to 4chan.

GreenDragon1133 wasn't saying that at all. And wasn't advocating for DMs to single out players that played their characters in a different way that he or she expected.

And Charisma is often used a s a dump stat, it's a fair comment. And Charisma with the exception of a few classes doesn't have the penalties that other abilities have in relation to combat.

Once again, another fair comment.

[blackbloodtroll]

Fair, but put forth in a terrible manner.

Whatever good, logical, statement was in there, it was lost in quite a bit of gnashing of the teeth.

[Arae Garven]

Mainly your gnashing, though.

[Lamontius]

CHA is the new DEX
if you are paying attention

[jonhl1986]

atm im playing a cleric and there was no way i would dump my cha so i dumped my physical stats. playing a cleric with stats str 7 dex 7 con 13 int 14 wis 18 cha 18 i was able to survive through 2 combats in one session without using any spells and only using half my channels. i just can't see myself ever dumping cha unless the class doesnt need it for anything.

[GreenDragon1133]

Thank you Morzadian.

My point is: every other stat has clear game systemic penalties if it is exceptionally low. CHA does also, but some of those penalties must be adjudicated by the GM and are not precise numeric values. For the most part, the rules(or advice in the case of the roleplaying elements) are actually already there, and are simply ignored by many GMs.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

My solutions:

1) Will removed from Wisdom and added to Charisma. Ranged Attack removed from Dexterity and added to Wisdom.

or

2) 10 is the lowest you can go on Charisma. Very small change, doesn't do much, doesn't guarantee against players who want to play social jerks, but it makes me feel okay. I might let you be bad at social stuff, but you don't get any points back for it.

or

3) Get rid of the stat. I honestly don't know what to make of a social stat (and no one tell me, it won't work) so I don't care for one.

[Cyrad]

I have no problem with Charisma.

However, in an RPG project, I removed Constitution and Wisdom. A character's durability is based on their Strength. Crafting is a Charisma skill and used extensively.

[Atarlost]

It's best to remove one or even two of the mental stats. There are too many mental stats for the breadth of mental variation they purport to represent. Cyrad may be right that wisdom is the one to get rid of, but there are too many mental stats. There are one martial stat, three caster stats, and two everyone stats, but apart from arcanist each caster only uses one of the three caster stats. There's just not enough mental stuff to make all the caster stats at all useful to a non-caster even if casters were made to use all of them.

The three mental stats between them do more than strength so it's probably best to remove just one, but if you also juggle physical stuff to make strength more generally valuable you can remove two and not have it overshadow the physical stats for non-casters.

First, the loss of a dump stat means point buys should be raised by 4. After reshuffling almost everyone will lose a dump stat. If you're one of those people who rolls stats roll an extra stat and discard the lowest unless you still do roll in order. If you remove two mental stats that messes with class balance more because eg. alchemists lost one dump stat while condensing two they were investing in, but monks lost two dump stats. In almost all cases stat prerequisites for feats should go to the greater of the remaining mental stats, though if wisdom is removed monk feats may be an exception.

To remove Charisma move all charisma based class abilities to wisdom unless they're from an arcane class and all racials to int unless they're from tiefling or aasimar. Diplomacy and bluff join sense motive under wisdom. UMD and perform go to int because UMD should have always been int and performance tends to rely on memory, which is the one thing that int unambiguously covers in the normal game. Intimidate goes to strength because it was stupid to ever put it under any other stat in the first place.

To remove wisdom move perception and the class abilities of all casting classes that use wisdom to int and all other wisdom based abilities to charisma. Monk feat prerequisites can go to just charisma.

To remove int move all int skills to wisdom and everything else to charisma.

[Rory]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

All that's left is to find a more combat-related use for Charisma (if possible)

In a party of practically no healers, I introduced the following mechanic action for CHA.

Heroic Recovery: As a full round action that provokes AOOs, a character can recover 25% of their maximum hitpoints (round down). This action may be used 3+CHA times per day.

It was a low magic game, exploring a wilderness setting at the start, so wands/scrolls/potions of healing weren't readily available. The mechanic worked fairly well, as it gave a strategic means for anyone in the party to heal themselves in combat.

Another means of using CHA in combat would be to introduce Heroic type effects. Example: Allow a character to free action or immediate action add +1d6 to any d20 roll in combat up to 1+CHA times per day.

[Vagabond?]

I said it earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again due to the mention from earlier- I use a modified version of the Action Points system from 3.5 to give Charisma a purpose- Everyone gains a 1/week refreshing pool of action points equal or up to their charisma mod plus a quarter their level. They can turn them into Hero Points 1/day at a 2:1 rate. They count as two for the purpose of how many action points you recover at the end of the week. Charisma based casters subtract their highest spellcasting level from their charisma for the purpose of Action Points max.
Might not be the best option, but it's still a rather effective idea.

The time period can vary, however- You can change it to Months in a longer campaign, or YEARS in a kingmaker campaign. Generally, the 1/week thing is just to prevent it from being too useless.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Using Cha instead of Wis for certain kinds of Will saves makes some sense I suppose, and I suppose one could rationalize using Cha checks instead of Con to stabilize while dying - pulling through via force of will. Maybe enemies would try to kill the leaders first (the ones with a greater personal presence). The way you could also look at it is that once a group of people have decided to kill each others, strength of personality doesn't play into things much.

The next idea doesn't have anything to do with Cha in combat, but has more to do with increasing the presence of ability checks in the game. Skills and magic are great, but I think there is also a place the raw stuff that makes up a person. The game has some ways to use Str, Dex, and Con ability checks (I made a list once), but very, very little for Wis, Int, and Cha checks. If your game has enough important NPCs that the PCs have repeated or extended contact with, I recommend a simple DC 15 or 20 Charisma check to make a friendship. Add in circumstance bonuses of course. Diplomacy makes for great introductions, but its not the same as forming a stronger bond with someone.

[Cel'Daren]

Instead of 6 stats, drop it down to 4 maybe?

Vigor
Coordination
Cognizance
Presence

.

Vigor is the combination of both Strength and Constitution. It measures a character's ability to both generate and withstand physical forces. This ability is important for everyone, but is especially so for any character that engages in melee combat, such as fighters, monks, paladins, barbarians, etc etc. This ability determines the maximum amount of weight a character can carry, and a bonus increases a character's hit points. Incorporeal Undead lack a Vigor score, and rely on their Presence instead. A character with a Vigor score of 0 is dead.

You apply your character's Vigor modifier to:
Most Melee Attack Rolls,
Damage rolls when wielding a melee or throwing weapon,
Each roll of a hit die,
Fortitude Saving Throws,
Climb and Swim skill checks.
Strength checks (knocking down doors, etc)

.

Coordination is a combination of Dexterity and Wisdom. It measures a character's ability to control their own movements and manipulate physical objects with finesse. This ability is important for anyone seeking to excel with ranged or dual melee combat. A character with a Coordination score of 0 is incapable of moving and essentially paralyzed.

You apply your character's Coordination modifier to:
Ranged Attack Rolls,
Finessed Melee Attack Rolls,
Armor Class, provided the character can react to the attack
Reflex Saving Throws,
Acrobatics, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Profession, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks

.

Cognizance is a combination of Intelligence and Wisdom. It measures a character's ability to learn, use logic, and intuition. This ability is important to everyone, but is most important to Wizards and Monks because it effects their Spellcasting and Ki abilities respectively. A character with a Cognizance score of 0 is incapable of perception or thought and is unconscious.

You apply you character's Cognizance modifier to:
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skillpoint per level.
Disbelief Saving Throws*,
Appraise, Heal, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Survival checks.

.

Presence is a combination of Wisdom and Charisma. It measures a character's willpower, luck, divine-favor, self-confidence, and ability to influence others. It is important for many classes including most Divine Spellcasters, Bards, Sorcerers, and Rogues. A character with a Presence score of 0 is unable to stir themselves to action and stand helpless unless directed by another being. For undead creatures their Presence also represents their unnatural lifeforce and an undead creature with a Presence score of 0 is destroyed.

You apply your character's Presence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character starts with.
Will Saving Throws,
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Linguistics**, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks

.

.
Essentially you drop Wisdom and Constitution, and fold their effects into the other abilities. Having Constitution apart from Strength, and having Wisdom apart from Intelligence, never made sense to me personally. The strongest people in the world also tend to be the most durable, and I'm pretty sure that line of logic follows into Pathfinder. Whoever heard of a sickly giant, anyway? No one, they're all big and brawny, and thus durable creatures by default.

With these changes suddenly Presence, which is what is replacing Charisma, is a very important statistic for just about everyone to have. Actually it seems like it becomes almost too important. Thoughts?

*Disbelief would have to be made different than normal Will Saves, for the occasions when a spell is designed to trick, dupe, or manipulate a target through false sensations like illusions rather than trying to overpower their minds. Any class with Perception or Sense Motive as a Class skill (I.E. Everyone but Fighters, Sorcerers, and Wizards) should have a High Progression with this save.

** Language is really just a tool created to help influence others, and should be tied to a person's presence than their intelligence. Sure an intelligent person can learn to speak a lot of languages, as shown by their higher skill points they can invest into the skill, but only a truly sociable person tends to have the talent to effortlessly learn new languages.

[Indagare]

There are three skills which could be helpful in combat situations. Two are based in Charisma and one in Wisdom (but which could easily be changed to Charisma). Bluff and Intimidate both have an official ability related to combat and Sense Motive has an unofficial one that I think would help if your GM allowed it.

Bluff (Cha)

Feint in Combat:

You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat.

Action: Feinting in combat is a standard action.

Retry? Yes. You can attempt to feint against someone again if you fail.

Intimidate (Cha)

Demoralize Opponent:

You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.

Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.

Fail: The opponent is not shaken.

Action Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.

Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed.

Sense Motive (Cha instead of Wis)

Analyze Prowess:

You can read a foe’s body language, movements, words, and other cues to guess its prowess and likely abilities. The DC is 10 + target’s base attack bonus + target’s Charisma modifier or 10 + target’s Bluff modifier, whichever is higher. If you succeed, you learn the target’s base attack bonus. For every 2 points by which you exceed the DC, you learn of one combat feat the target possesses. Analyzing prowess is a move action. If you fail this Sense Motive check, you can make a guess at your foe’s abilities, but are aware that it is unreliable. The GM secretly takes the higher of the foe’s base attack bonus or ranks in Bluff, subtracts 4, and adds 1d8. You learn only the result, but know that it may be as much as 4 points different from the true value and could represent either combat training or the ability to fake it well.

Your GM could give as bonus feats the following to those who meet the requirements:

Flagbearer
Combat, Local
Cha 15
You and others with same allegiance gain +1 morale bonus on attacks, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws vs. fear and charm effects while holding a flag.

Fury of the Tainted
Combat
Cha 13, rage class feature, tiefling
While raging, you gain a +4 competence bonus on saving throws against spells and effects with the [good] descriptor. [BoF]

Fury of the Tainted, Improved
Combat Cha 13, Fury of the Tainted, BAB +8, rage class feature, tiefling
While raging, you gain SR equal to 10 + your class level against spells with the [good] descriptor. [BoF]

Haunted Gnome
Combat
Cha 13, gnome magic racial trait, Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank
You add haunted fey aspect to your list of gnome magic spell-like abilities, and you can use this spell-like ability twice per day.

[Devilkiller]

It sounds like if Charisma can't be the best stat it doesn't want to be a stat at all. Is Charisma threatening to take its toys and go home? There are plenty of uses for Charisma in Pathfinder. There are also PCs who don't need Charisma much, just like there are PCs who don't need Str much. They'd get some benefit from these stats, but it is one they could easily live without. I think that's OK.

Anyhow, way back in the 2e days when Charisma did next to nothing a tough and gritty DM decided Charisma needed to play a bigger role, and he gave us the Luck Check, which is basically just a d20 roll adjusted by your Charisma modifier. A Luck Check can be used to determine minor things like if you find a little extra treasure when you search a room, whether a guard comes by on patrol, or whether the gear you found fits you. Opposed Luck Checks are often called "Ugly Offs", and they frequently determine who gets the extra arrow, who got the poison apple, or who the monster with Improved Vital Strike and Constrict decides to hop out and Grab.

People on the boards generally think that Luck Checks sound like a cruel and unusual punishment, A d20 gives a pretty good range though, so PCs with high Charisma can get unlucky too. In practice most of our groups enjoy Ugly Offs, and determining more stuff randomly makes the game a little more exciting and unpredictable.

[Aleron]

Charisma is my favourite stat. That said, outside of certain builds (looking at you oracle...) it does get a bit of a short stick and seems to be dumped far too often for my taste.

In my home game, charisma also plays a factor in how much fate itself takes notice of you and partially represents luck for that reason or whether fate is on your side or against you. The rough version of this is allowing a reroll on your rolls once for every two modifier points per game session (1 for 12, 2 for 16, 3 for 20, etc). A dumped charisma instead allows the GM to force you once or twice per session instead.

Note I also don't allow some things like divine protection or noble scion of war feats as it felt like a bit overkill on certain builds (and both way too powerful for a single feat).

*edit*

Might just steal Devilkiller's idea, that's pretty cool too. How do you determine the DC outside of the 'ugly offs' though?