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Can a creature or character with darkvision make use of a mirror in the dark?
I know there's little to no light for the mirror to work for people without extra-sensory capabilities, but darkvision isn't exactly scientific in the way it's defined, so I don't know if those with darkvision simply see the almost non-existent light that is present due to extreme sensitivity, or if it's something else altogether at work.
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According to the SRD, a mirror has no descriptive text to tell us how it functions. It will most likely, solely, be up to GM discretion, using their interpretation of in-game and/or out-of-game physics.
I think I would allow it.
Darkvision is 100% in the realm of magic sight now as it has no range limits and is "see perfectly"
For fun I would have mirrors reflect the "normal world" / be dark voids and I am stealing that for the near future.
It is one area I like how 5e did it more, limited range darkvision and a pretty huge penalty to rely on using it and it alone. Enough to live and navigate but you want other senses as a player.
Much easier to track and implement in game now though :) and less ubiquitous and easily accessed.
Low light works fantastically though.
That means every reason a GM could have for not letting a creature using darkvision see a reflection - just as clear as if the area were brightly lit, but in black and white - is clearly incompatible.
Rule of cool is incompatible? :P
Jokes aside the whole black and white element likely came from infravision (a creature seeing in infrared). Even in "pure darkness" essentially anything that gives off heat is going to give off infrared light.
This said, it is more sensible to just assume the vision is magic/game mechanics and ignore our real world physics as you said.
Infrared cameras are fun to play with (and generally less sophisticated than the eyes of creatures that use them to hunt), the black bin bag vs the clear sheet of glass experiment is always fun to show kids :) (the opaque binbag becomes like cellophane and the clear glass becomes almost opaque)
Rule of cool is incompatible? :PSince the 'rule of cool' is inherently a permitter, not a restricter... even as a joke, yeah, it's incompatible.
Player: I have darkvision, so I can see a reflection because I see as if in bright light, right?
GM: Sure... but wouldn't it be cool if you couldn't?
Player: No. Seems pretty cool to me to see like the rules say I can.
Or, it could be ruled in the players favour so they aren't seen. Or it can be a rule of what makes a scenario feel cool / exciting / evocative.
"The torch flames in the hallway all blow out at once, your eyes adjust to the darkness quickly leaving the length of the hallway in de-saturated greytones and the mirrors in the alcoves inky pools of darkness".
As long as it isn't done to disadvantage the players specifically and it isn't a adventurers league game I see no issue in this.
I think we must be talking past each other here, TGG, because there's no way I can think of that "the GM decided you can't see even though the rules clearly say you can" can be described as "isn't done to disadvantage the players specifically."
When the players aren't trying to utilise it, and when it would be advantageous in the players favour for it to work a different way.
Darkvision is clearly supernatural or magical, as it requires no light of any kind. Maybe it relies on infrared light that is generated by heat, but that wouldn't give you detailed enough vision really, and doesn't really match the description given to Darkvision.
Also trying to make it match the real world is madness.
Personally I say, no light no mirrors, but Darkvision works just fine. Just mirrors wont reflect anything.
And I think that's an okay ruling.
Ruling the other way is just fine too.
I think we must be talking past each other here, TGG, because there's no way I can think of that "the GM decided you can't see even though the rules clearly say you can" can be described as "isn't done to disadvantage the players specifically."
I don't think anyone is suggesting your Darkvision doesn't generally work, just that maybe mirrors wont reflect anything.
As long as your consistent with whatever ruling you make (not changing it to consistently be better or worse for the players) then it should be fine.
I'd hardly say that ruling that mirrors don't work with darkvision is screwing over players. Honestly I think in all the games I've played we've only used mirrors a dozen or so times.
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The answer is: Of course it can be used!
How else would Dwarves groom their beards and braids in the dark?
What a silly question... :P
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How else would Dwarves groom their beards and braids in the dark?
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If the mirrors don't work in the absence of light, Dwarves (and other ancestries living below) now have a bit more reason to use torches/glowing plants/fungi/magic lights/... in their cities.
...I don't think anyone is suggesting your Darkvision doesn't generally work, just that maybe mirrors wont reflect anything.Where I am hung up on trying to understand TGG is not on the "maybe I'll rule that darkvision will not let someone see a reflection in a mirror" but by trying to understand how the "rule of cool" is the alleged reason for ruling that way.
And yes, it absolutely is "screwing over players" to rule that darkvision can't see a reflection in a mirror, and here's why: the book sets the expectation for the player that darkvision means "You can see in darkness and dim light just as well as you can see in bright light" and being able to see a reflection in a mirror is exactly what they'd be able to do if they were in bright light.
It's not a major point to be screwed on (except for if it is, like if their plan for some reason relied on being able to see a reflection), but it is still being screwed because a feature with only one listed caveat ("though your vision in darkness is in black and white.") has had extra caveats added - and probably not with advanced warning since this is, after all, such a minor point and unlikely to come up. So a player is probably in the situation of creeping through the darkness with their darkvision having character and thinking all is fine, then they try to use a mirror to peak around a corner and surprise, plain rules text that's clear has day has been contradicted because the GM has had a whim.
Yeah, I don't see the rule of cool argument either.
But as for the other part, I'll be honest and say I don't care what the exact text of Darkvision says about being able to see as well as bright light but in black and white because no actual light means mirrors have nothing to reflect.
In my opinion this isn't screwing over players, this is just a facet of how the universe works in my opinion. Mirrors require light, if there is really no light than there's nothing to be reflected by a mirror. To me it's about like saying "Hey when you go off a cliff you fall, because gravity, and if it's high enough you take damage". With the main difference being that's explicitly enumerated in the rules.
Screwing the players would be making the adjudication specifically to hamper the players. I would be making the call because to me that's how it should work.
It also means enemies with Darkvision can't put mirrors in a dark hallway and try to spot the part around corners, in just the same way that the party couldn't hold a mirror to try to get a look around a corner.
To clarify, it's not that Darkvision wouldn't see the reflection in a mirror, but that the mirror's not reflecting in the dark.
I don't see how the Rule of Cool aids either way. It's a mundane issue.
As far as I know, there's no description of how Darkvision works other than it doesn't need light. Yet Heightened Darkness must be blocking something, right? But does that something reflect?
It's a rabbit hole.
I think I'd allow it because it does involve vision specifically. There should be something interacting with your eyes even if it doesn't mirror how photons work IRL. (pun unintentional!) And the history of the ability is based on photons. First there was IR vision (w/ an occasional UV) and boy did that have lots of messy interpretations around what could or couldn't be seen or what might blind you even. And Infravision totally failed when normal light was around, so it morphed into Darkvision, which was simply a cleaner version for navigating (yet not reading if I recall). Now it's even cleaner, acting like black & white vision which is something most players can grok. There are no range limits, no "tracking heat signature footprints", no "infra-ink" to bypass reading limits, and so forth.
In that vein, of it being a much cleaner ability, I think Darkvision should work with mirrors in darkness. Let Smell (imprecise) be the new, messy sense to wrestle with. :)
In a similar vein to the mirror question: What does a character with darkvision see when they look at a new moon or out into space?
I said I don't care what the exact text of darkvision says, because it doesn't touch on anythign specific to mirrors or light. It just says
A monster with darkvision can see perfectly well in areas of darkness and dim light, though such vision is in black and white only. Some forms of magical darkness, such as a 4th-level darkness spell, block normal darkvision. A monster with greater darkvision, however, can see through even these forms of magical darkness.
So, they way I see you could see the mirror, it just wouldn't be reflecting anything. It can see "perfectly well" is pretty vague, and to me leaves room for mirrors not working. I'm not saying it's absolutely the case, but short of official ruling that's how I would run it as a GM.
I don't know how darkvisios works, but I know mirrors require light. No light, no reflection. That's really all this boils down to.
Why does darkvision work? Magic/supernatural energy.
Personally if anything I'd rther get rid of darkvision altogether and just have low light vision, because Darkvision makes no sense.
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Note that however you rule on the mirror, the essence should carry over into telescopes & eyeglasses as well. Right?
I'd rather not open up that can of worms of faux-physics and keep it simple. It'd be a shame to spend game-time hashing this out as if it's pivotal.
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I love this thread and how vehement the arguments are!
We should all agree to boycott all Paizo products until they correct there monumental and inexcusable error of omission and provide us with definitive guidance on how mirrors and darkvision work.
We should also insist that they clarify whether or not a dragon can effectively use a hammer.
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XD
doesn't touch on anything specific to light?
"...just as well as you can see in bright light" seems to disagree with that assessment.
Saying "darkvision works because magic" but then turning around and saying "mirrors are an exception to that magic even though the rules don't say so" is inconsistent. You're willing to just let it be magic, rather than a game-ified version of something like a "night vision" camera (which, oddly enough, pick up reflections just fine but have some difficulties in showing what is behind a pane of clear glass because of it reflecting the light spectrum being used to see an image), right up until a mirror gets involved - then you are switch to "because physics" instead of "because magic" even though you're still answering "why does darkvision work?"
Darkvision makes just as much sense as giants, lighting-breathing dragons, and aliens from another world with an ingrained connection to their surroundings (aka Elves), and a thousand other things that are a part of the game - no reason to pick just this one "but physics says otherwise" instance and single it out for 'correction'.
I disagree, the magic is what lets them see at all. But you can't see in a mirror what's not there. Without light there is nothing to see in the mirror, it's as simple as that. Regardless of what makes darkvision work, you can't see what isn't there to be seen. Without light there is nothing to reflect in the mirror.
Also, night vision cameras used infrared light, which is light.
If you want to go back to previous editions and call darkvision as Infra-vision instead we can at figure out how it should work.
Since darkvision has no mechanics or explanation of how it functions except the vague line of "see perfectly well in areas of darkness" then were forced to extrapolate. In my opinion they see the mirror perfectly well, but there's nothing in the mirror to reflect because there is no light.
You're not going to convince me I'm wrong, and I'm not going to convince you I"m right. We are just repeating the same arguments over and neither of us finds the other at all convincing. Short of Paizo making an official statement I'm not going to be swayed. So I guess this is my way of saying I'm not going to engage with you further on this topic.
A question to those in the "mirror's won't work in darkness"-camp (and anyone else who likes to chime in):
Can a character in the dark read a book with darkvision?
Or: Can a character in the dark look through a window, with darkvision?
These all would put very serious limitations on darkvision (and bring it much more in line with low-light and normal vision, on a power scale).
A question to those in the "mirror's won't work in darkness"-camp (and anyone else who likes to chime in):
As I said in my original comment before weirdly offending some, it would only be in a rule of cool rather than simulationist approach.
Knowingly using it to make a scene more impactful, and generally only where/when I was certain that it would not be negatively used against the players. As opposed to making it a standardized rule in all of my games.
Rule of cool being a ruling that breaks (usually only temporarily) game rules to enable a cool scene that could otherwise not occur. Usually to a players advantage but not always.
e.g. allowing PCs to grapple and then drag another PC who has had their mind controlled by a hostile effect so they don't walk into the massive fire. RAW this isn't allowed with grapple, but a GM can always throw rules out the window if it makes for a more evocative scene.
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...and then here we have a player try to read a book in the dark because the game says their character can see just as well in darkness as in bright light and a GM saying "rule of cool" says they can't read. I can't find anything "cool" from the player's perspective - or a reason why a GM would think it was "cool" to directly contradict what a character can do according to the rules on a whim of hypothetical "more evocative"-ness.
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The reading books in darkness bit was from me, so:
I did not say "wouldn't it be cool if darkness prevented darkvision characters from reading books in the dark?".
I asked: "If you think darkvision characters can't see reflections on a mirror in the dark, does that extend to looking through windows and reading books in darkness?".
Ah, sorry. I really got a bit defensive there.
I guess it depends on how you interpret and convey what "see perfectly well ..., though ... black and white only" actually looks like to the player.
In my mind, this turns darkvision into some sort of "outline-vision": you get the sense of depth, see objects as outlines and such
somewhat like this maybe, or this image for a smaller object
Applying that to your mirror maze in the dark example, the darvision character would be fine navigating the maze. In fact, he'd have an advantage versus navigating in bright or low-light, with the mirrors now not reflecting any disinformation. The same way that character can easily navigate through tunnels in darkness.
Reading a book though would not be do-able. Unless it's a special kind, similar to braille, so that the characters or runes would be recognizable to this vision.
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My original statements were.
Darkvision is 100% in the realm of magic sight now as it has no range limits and is "see perfectly"
Rule of cool is incompatible? :P
Jokes aside the whole black and white element likely came from infravision
This said, it is more sensible to just assume the vision is magic/game mechanics and ignore our real world physics as you said.
e.g. we're not talking about an equivalent of dragging a mind controlled PC out of a massive fire they're being puppeteered into, but more like the equivalent of the player being told they can't Shove their mind controlled ally away from the flames because "wouldn't it be cool if they walked into the fire, though?"
No we aren't I was quite clear... it would be a "room with a mirror in it, light goes out and the mirrors look back to your eyes" completely aesthetic effect.
I SPECIFICALLY said I would only apply something like this if it were almost certain to not negatively impact a player character (and if there is no benefit to seeing reflections in a dark room it is not negatively impacting them). Please stop strawmanning scenarios suggesting I would do otherwise when I have quite CLEARLY said I would not, multiple times now. Especially when I have SPECIFICALLY said ignoring real world physics and treating it as normal sight in darkness is the and I quote "sensible" thing to do.
You know what is more likely to impact a player with darkvision and mirrors, a GM simply forgetting to mention reflections. No I wouldn't do it in a mirror maze, no I wouldn't do it to a character trying to see around a corner with a mirror, or had prepped a mirror during a medusa fight.
And yes, describing something aesthetically slightly different than the rules suggest can be rule of cool. But hey if you think it is world ending "unfun" or something similae then great, fine, whatever.
/exits convo I am done, too much effort spent justifying something I said in light hearted jest in the first place.
It seems Claxon is only looking at the definition of Darkvision on p 465 of the CRB, whereas thenobledrake is also taking into consideration the text under Darkvision shown on pages 35 and 47.
I'd point out that all vision depends on light being reflected or emitted from whatever is being observed. So if a mirror doesn't work for a creature with Darkvision because there is no light to reflect, then the same would be true about anything else they might look at. So essentially, either mirrors work, or there is no Darkvision.
I don't actually own the book, I use Archives of Nethys, and when searching for darkvision the only entry I can readily find is I guess the one you're referring to on page 465.
And if all vision depends on light being reflected or emitted then how does Darkvision work?
Because there's no light in the visible light spectrum in the scenario we're discussing. So it's either ultraviolet light or infrared light, or it's magic and darkvision doesn't depend on light. And it it's not light dependent, and there's no light then the mirror wont have anything in it.
If it's ultraviolet or infrared we can actually evaluate what those would look like, but it wouldn't be a black and white version or normal vision.
"If it's not light dependent, then there's no light then the mirror won't have anything in it"
Do you see the issue with that statement?
I agree we seem to be in agreement up to the point above.
WHat I'm trying to say, is assuming there is 0 light in any part of the spectrum, or rather that darkvision doesn't work using light (something we agree on, and that is some sort of magic) then a mirror doesn't work.
It doesn't reflect anything. There's nothing to be seen in, because there is no light.
It doesn't matter that you can see in the dark, there's nothing to see in the mirror.
I guess the difference is, even though it's magic I see no reason for mirrors to work in the complete absence of light.
Darkvision doesn't let you see through walls or not in straight lines, it doesn't let you see invisible creatures. Why should darkvision let you see something that's not there?
This isn't about darkvision not working, it's that in the complete absence of light there is nothing to reflect or be seen in a mirror.
I'm not trying to apply physics to darkvision, I'm applying physics to mirrors.
Unless you want to argue that the magic of darkvision extends into reflective surfaces to somehow generate images that aren't there?
Personally I think extending the magic beyond the character to affect the world is beyond what Darkvision is capable of.
Let me come at this from a slightly different direction.
Let's assume we have a room with no visible light (and we're going to ignore the existence of ultraviolet and infrared light). There is a mirror in the room (and no people). Does the mirror reflect anything?
No, there is no light so there is no relfection.
This doesn't change if a human walks in.
It also doesn't change if a creature with darkvision walks in. There is no image in there mirror to be seen.
If we thought Darkvision actually used the infrared or ultraviolet light spectrum we could argue that even without visible light, you would have those other wavelengths of light and they would form an image, but we've already agreed Darkvision doesn't use ultraviolet or infrared.
So Darkvision doesn't see anything in a mirror because there's nothing there to be seen.
Unless you believe that whatever magic Darkvision has somehow affects the mirror to create a reflection.
I guess I'm saying that the game does not define how a mirror works. In the absence of such a definition, other rules that define how abilities work and how characters interact with the in-game world are all we have to go by. Darkvision explicitly grants the ability to "see in darkness and dim light just as well as...in bright light". So if a character can see an image in a mirror in bright light, they should be able to see the same image in the absence of light, but in black and white.
I really do understand your point of view, I just think the game is served better in this case by suspending your understanding of real-world science. Why can there not be a kind of light in Golarion that is present everywhere but can only be seen by those with Darkvision? And maybe still another type that is invisible even to those with Darkvision, but not Greater Darkvision. And mirrors reflect these light varieties just as they do the mundane kind. Poof, problem solved.
So then, if a prism is in a room with no light, does someone with Darkvision see a greyscale rainbow being emitted from the prism, despite the absence of light needed to create the rainbow in the first place?
That's an odd way to interpret the text. Seems more likely that what is intended is to take a picture, load it into a photo editor, and then de-saturate it but make no other changes.
English isn't my native language, so maybe I make a distinction between "greyscale" and "black and white" that isn't there for americans?
converting the above image to black and white only gives me a black square with a few white pixels.
For sake of simplicity alone I am firmly in the camp that reflections do work while using darkvision, simply due to the description of darkvision and that this ability is not limited to mirrors alone.
So a Goblin can see himself in a mirror in normal light and while using darkvision. He can see the stereotypical enemy creeping up on him poised to strike while looking at a pool of water. And waking up at night after a banquet where he passed out underneath one of the tables after too much wine he can see the silhouette of the assassin sneaking around in the dark "mirrored" in one of the suits of armor that are on display in the kings grand hall.
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So then, if a prism is in a room with no light, does someone with Darkvision see a greyscale rainbow being emitted from the prism, despite the absence of light needed to create the rainbow in the first place?I guess I'm saying that the game does not define how a mirror works. In the absence of such a definition, other rules that define how abilities work and how characters interact with the in-game world are all we have to go by. Darkvision explicitly grants the ability to "see in darkness and dim light just as well as...in bright light". So if a character can see an image in a mirror in bright light, they should be able to see the same image in the absence of light, but in black and white.
I really do understand your point of view, I just think the game is served better in this case by suspending your understanding of real-world science. Why can there not be a kind of light in Golarion that is present everywhere but can only be seen by those with Darkvision? And maybe still another type that is invisible even to those with Darkvision, but not Greater Darkvision. And mirrors reflect these light varieties just as they do the mundane kind. Poof, problem solved.
Exactly! You get my argument. Without light, things that rely on light don't do what they normally do.
Without light, there are no reflections. So in the absence of light polished metal, water, mirrors, etc have no reflections. Prisms have no light to separate into different wavelengths.
This has nothing to do with darkvision, it's simply how those objects works and while it is physics, it basics extremely basic physics to understand that without light you don't have reflections.
So anyone, with any sort of sense, cannot detect what isn't there to be detected.
Next someone will try telling us that with blind sense you can see the reflection in the mirror/water/metal and see the "rainbow" of the prism, all without any light.
NO. It's not there, it can't be seen.