Well, all my guesses were wrong. The next AP after Hell's Rebels is Hell's Vengeance. Evil PC AP.
Are they serious?
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Well, all my guesses were wrong. The next AP after Hell's Rebels is Hell's Vengeance. Evil PC AP.Seriously? Ah hell. Seems like a bit too much hell in a row. I think I'm'a pass.
I'm with you there, Samy. My players don't do evil. No use for this AP at all. I wish Paizo the best with it, of course, but I'll not keep my subscription up for this one.
It will also be the only AP in their line that I'll not own. Sadness . . . :(
Hell's Vengeance gives me mixed feelings,
Bad
1.Your basically undoing everything done in a previous adventure path.
2.Being so close behind makes Hell's Rebels an AP you shouldn't bother with in the first place, (if you like playing every AP that comes out) thus redundant.
3.playing under a strict LE patron means limited villain origins.
Good
1.A requested AP where you play Evil PCs.
2.A social AP, less revolution and combat, more manipulate and control type of adventure. (guessing)
3.A chance for me to play my mantis assassin PC (Slayer class!) and hopefully get a deity article for the mantis god.
Hopes
1.Not everything will be undone from the events of Hell's Rebels in Hell's Vengeance.
2.More material for Cheliax and evil players being released in PC and CS product lines.
3.Hell's Vengeance and Hell's Rebels will be successful APs in quality and storyline.
Is there any official confirmation that Hell's Vengeance will "undo" the results of Hell's Rebels? (Or even that it's a sequel?)
All I've seen is that you're expected to play evil PCs. Has there been any further information?
Maybe it's the "other side of the coin" for Hell's Rebel? It could imply that each adventure is where things would go depending on whether the PCs fell on Cheliax's or the Rebel's side. That would be a really interesting idea, if you ask me.
I have seen no confirmation of that one way or the other. The only details tweeted by those actually there are the title and the fact that you're playing evil characters. Everything else has been speculation and assumption that this will be the worst thing ever and the standard threats to unsubscribe. After a hundred AP volumes, I kind of tend to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt that even if at face value I don't see the appeal that they're going to put out a damned good story that's worth giving a chance.Is there any official confirmation that Hell's Vengeance will "undo" the results of Hell's Rebels? (Or even that it's a sequel?)
All I've seen is that you're expected to play evil PCs. Has there been any further information?
Cheers. I just wondered if I'd missed something - my recollection is that the REAL Adventure Path spoilers/news comes on the Sunday of Paizocon.
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I share your view on giving paizo the benefit of the doubt too. In my experience, it's the APs I've least looked forward to that have worked out the best at the table. (Something to do with my expectations, I presume).
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I will keep an open mind as well, but from the little we do know, I'm not getting my hopes up. I think it's a reasonable concern that the APs might be linked in some way, since they are coming out back-to-back and being named similarly. I at least hope the second one will be set somewhere else, because twelve months stuck in Cheliax is not my idea of a fun time.
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Yep! That's my understanding as well. If I recall, there's a panel on Sunday discussing it in more detail and the presentation tonight was just a teaser on the heels of giving a lot of Occult Adventures details, and product announcements.Cheers. I just wondered if I'd missed something - my recollection is that the REAL Adventure Path spoilers/news comes on the Sunday of Paizocon.I have seen no confirmation of that one way or the other. The only details tweeted by those actually there are the title and the fact that you're playing evil characters. Everything else has been speculation and assumption that this will be the worst thing ever and the standard threats to unsubscribe. After a hundred AP volumes, I kind of tend to give Paizo the benefit of the doubt that even if at face value I don't see the appeal that they're going to put out a damned good story that's worth giving a chance.Is there any official confirmation that Hell's Vengeance will "undo" the results of Hell's Rebels? (Or even that it's a sequel?)
All I've seen is that you're expected to play evil PCs. Has there been any further information?
No threat here, my friend (Duiker)! I meant no disrespect to Paizo at all, which is why I wished them all the best with this one. This simply comes down to play style. This AP could be the greatest, most unbelievably awesome story ever conceived in modern day gaming . . . but once you've slapped the "Evil PCs" tag upon it, there's nothing about it that my group will buy into. Nothing.
I don't blame Paizo for making this AP. I know there has been an outcry by many for an evil AP, and now they've got it. Which is cool! I buy APs to give my players options of campaigns to play, however, and this provides us with none. My players want to play heroes, and good-aligned ones at that. Literally, there is one kind of AP that is of absolutely no use to me, and an evil one is it.
I'll plan to resubscribe after this one is done. Has nothing to do with giving benefit of the doubt though, and everything to do with a play style that's useless for myself and my group. I suppose you can take that as you will.
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I'm with Sub-Creator. There's nothing wrong with either the concept of an evil AP or with Paizo deciding to make one, but it is most defintley not for my personal taste. I'm a softie, couldn't even bring myself to try playing an evil character in some old bioware games that allowed it. Childish or not, I want the good guys to win in a story I invest in. Playing or GMing an evil campaign is not something I want to do.
However, I know there is at least one positive that I'm likely to get out of this deal: many new good-aligned monsters! As things stand right now these are in very short supply since what the game demanded is evil monsters to fight more than good creatures to interact with. I'm confident that balance will change with this new AP and we will get to see a surplus of good guys.
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Another bestiary - meh. Evil AP - meh.
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I'm really interested to see what Paizo can do with an "evil AP". I think it'll be far more interesting and nuanced than, um, "Kill, burn, maim, rape and destroy".
I'm also interested to see what the mirrored name means, especially since I've been running the APs in a shared world thus far.
I'm glad to finally see Cheliax get some attention. ^_^
The only real problems I have are that I just started Way of the Wicked with one group , and so won't be running another evil game with them for a while. and it comes out to late for my other group as the current campaign will have finished with too much of a gap to wait for this one.
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Kill, burn, maim, rape and destroy, that's something I can roll with.
Feeling fairly confident that at least rape won't be a part of it, because while the other stuff you mentioned is the basics of D&D even when playing the good guys, rape is strictly outside of the comfort zone of most players of the game.
I also wonder if Paizo will include a series of sidebars or something on "playing as the good guys" (similarly to how they sometimes include advice on playing their APs with evil parties) in an attempt to make it more accessible to a larger audience.
The more I think about the AP the more curious I am to know what is being done with it. After all, twisted and evil stories are a large part of the appeal of Pathfinder to me - the APs have always been pretty dark, even if ultimately they were stories of good defeating evil - so how will Paizo make an evil AP feel different enough?
I'm unsure how to feel about this. Without more information, I can't really decide. Although I would be disappointed if it undoes what happens in Hell's Rebels. Idk, I don't really like playing the bad guys. It really brings the worst out of players. I'll tentatively pay attention.
Meh.
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Cheliax again? Sigh
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The only thing that would make this AP worth getting if the bestiaries are full of good aligned monsters such as celestials, fey, magical beast, etc. and maybe some good aligned aberrations, undead, and oozes.
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While I see a lot of negativity about an evil AP, as a DM I would like to express joy at seeing Paizo's take on an evil AP. I'm not too fond of the idea of it being in service to Asmodeus (if that is the case, which it sounds like) but it will be interesting to see how Paizo will do it.
Also as a DM I've done enough evil monologues. It is nice to switch things up and get to do the "bring the bad guys to justice" speech instead. Even if my good guys will end up losing (or will they, this would be a TPK I wouldn't feel so bad about!).
Also, I reckon this will not so much be an 'evil' AP as it a 'lesser of two evils' AP. You might start out on the wrong side, but I strongly suspect that someone even worse than you is going to start causing trouble and you have to stop them.
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This sounds amazing.
And it also makes clear the key reasons that Rob McCreary has been running the developer crew through Way of the Wicked for quite some time now...
Well I'm very excited as a GM. I'm eager for more detail but I'd love to GM this with my group. My players have done Evil before and know how to behave themselves. I even think that giving them the option of evil makes character development better because the GM can throw at them moral dilemmas. How those characters react and what they decide shows that some characters can do good things and some evil things.
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Based on this I'm calling an AP that focuses on devils, and possibly makes a trip to hell.Please be prepared to revisit this thread in a few weeks. AKA: Have patience. ;-)I remember when Wrath of the Righteous was coming out there was a deluge of demon-related content. There doesn't seem to be whole lot of devil-related supplements coming out besides Hell Unleashed.They're definitely biased in demons' favor, and I've never quite gotten why. Each race has a major supporter (James Jacobs and F. Wesley Schneider, respectively), but devils and their realm always seem like they're neglected.
I'm just disappointed that we don't seem to be getting a Cheliax book. The Player's Companion wasn't enough. Cheliax is one of the central and most influential nations of the Inner Sea, and we know virtually nothing about it compared to others. Osirion got a book. Irrisen got a book. Andoran is getting a book. I don't get it...
/rant
^_^
Back to this - called it. :)
Cheliax again? Sigh
While this seems likely, we actually don't know yet if this is Cheliax-based.
I bet it's not, I'm hoping it might start in Galt, tho in all likelihood Druma, Isger or Andoran are very strong possibilities :-)
I for one think it sounds awesome :-)
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Back to this - called it. :)Based on this I'm calling an AP that focuses on devils, and possibly makes a trip to hell.Please be prepared to revisit this thread in a few weeks. AKA: Have patience. ;-)I remember when Wrath of the Righteous was coming out there was a deluge of demon-related content. There doesn't seem to be whole lot of devil-related supplements coming out besides Hell Unleashed.They're definitely biased in demons' favor, and I've never quite gotten why. Each race has a major supporter (James Jacobs and F. Wesley Schneider, respectively), but devils and their realm always seem like they're neglected.
I'm just disappointed that we don't seem to be getting a Cheliax book. The Player's Companion wasn't enough. Cheliax is one of the central and most influential nations of the Inner Sea, and we know virtually nothing about it compared to others. Osirion got a book. Irrisen got a book. Andoran is getting a book. I don't get it...
/rant
^_^
Now that would be interesting.
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Is there any official confirmation that Hell's Vengeance will "undo" the results of Hell's Rebels? (Or even that it's a sequel?)
All I've seen is that you're expected to play evil PCs. Has there been any further information?
Erik Mona never said it was a sequel.
He said something like "In Hell's Rebels you will have played characters that Rebel against Hell, now you can play the other side. And you will work directly for this guy!"
Good news Bestiary 5!
Bad news, another devil ap, probably full of good-alignment monsters in the bestiaries. :=(
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Come on, guys. Why are you acting like there is only room for on evil AP in Pathfinder? If it's "not as good" as Way of the Wicked, so what? It'll be something different.
And I said this in other threads, but if this does take place in Cheliax, I bet this will start from square one (like Hell's Rebels), but instead of PCs siding with the Rebels, they side with Thrune.
probably full of good-alignment monsters in the bestiaries. :=(
I am hopeful it will have them, they need some love.
But it could also include all types of outsiders, as Hell fights basically everyone, right?
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probably full of good-alignment monsters in the bestiaries. :=(I am hopeful it will have them, they need some love.
But it could also include all types of outsiders, as Hell fights basically everyone, right?
I hope they have more robots and aliens in the bestiaries:-)
probably full of good-alignment monsters in the bestiaries. :=(I am hopeful it will have them, they need some love.
But it could also include all types of outsiders, as Hell fights basically everyone, right?
Probably everything spare for mythology monsters again, hopefully bestiary 5 is teaming with them.
I hope they have more robots and aliens in the bestiaries:-)probably full of good-alignment monsters in the bestiaries. :=(XXX
I'm 90% certain your wish is being granted there. Sadly Bestiaries don't normally include a lot of the "extras" you'd want with robots and aliens like the gear and tools, though maybe they'll just stat them up in-block as special abilities like they did for the robots originally? And you'll just need to extrapolate out from there.
Hopefully robots will make it into B5.
I'm Thinking it might be Andoran based...although I guess we will find out more today...
Disappointed. An Evil AP is for me very good. However an evil AP revolving around Asmodeus? We have Way of the Wicked for that. It is an unimaginative pursuit.
Trying to show non paizo how to do things? Making them irrelevant? Did they perhaps write it in a way that lacked or didnt quite fit for people at Paizo? Did paizo want to explore more in that direction since WotW was well received?
If I play Way of the Wicked I dont feel like playing an Asmodeus paizo AP, and viceversa. Paizo have their whole world to explore and they decide to do something thats uninteresting and not refreshing. On the heels of a cheliax related campaign too. Wasted potential.
No doubt the AP will deliver in quality, as they mostly do. I like Cheliax, I like evil subtle-machinations stories..but this sounds like a regurgitation.
That was an early and highly opinionated...opinion, I am always open to changing my mind if proved otherwise.
I am still very looking forward to when they put their minds to many of the more distant/otherwordly topics in this thread. Or high intrigue (hint of their new book?) where they cater for grey morals instead of black and whites, again.
From things that were said about Hell's Rebels, I believe there are other revolts going on in Cheliax- not just Kintargo. As a result, Hell's Vengeance could very easily still be a "flip side" to Hell's Rebels but taking place elsewhere in the nation.
If the new AP happens at the same time Hells Rebels does, and the same place, eventually diverging (depending on which side succeeds) it would be very interesting. Imagine running 2 groups simultaneously one on each.
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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There will be more posts here from the Paizo staff once PaizoCon is over. The AP staff has not yet conducted their Adventure Path Q&A, which will have a lot more Infformation on Hell's Vengeance. Until then, a couple things:
1) Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance take place at the same time, during the same general rebellion throughout Cheliax. Hell's Vengeance has nothing whatsoever to do with Kintargo, and Hell's Vengeance does not in any way "undo" Hell's Rebels. We've had that concern for months and months, and have planned things accordingly to avoid the problems some people here are worried about.
2) The AP staff is very familiar with Way of the Wicked, and I am certain that they will be taking great pains to provide a very different experience. Although I referenced Asmodeus at the Preview Banquet, in fact the PCs in Hell's Vengeance do NOT work for Asmodeus. They work instead for House Thrune, which isn't the same thing. In fact, friction between House Thrune and Asmodeus is a significant plot point in Hell's Vengeance.
More soon.