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Alright, more fun questions arising from having an Undead Master in my group.
The hearty fellow opted to animate a dead owb as a bloody skeleton, now with the purchase of muleback cords, he intends to have the owb make a habit of flying him around by carrying him.
Per weight restrictions, he's good to go (muleback cords are pretty handy when it comes to carrying capacity).
My question is how to adjudicate this. He's not riding the owb, he's being carried by it, and I'm unsure if this means he'd be counted as being grappled, moved, or what.
So I come to you all, to pick your brains.
Thanks in advance.
How exactly did he animate an Owb? They aren't an option from animate dead or create dead spells.
In any event, just treat being carried pretty much like riding. Except he probably doesn't need the ride skill and he can control the undead using his voice instead of handle animal.
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How exactly did he animate an Owb? They aren't an option from animate dead or create dead spells.
In any event, just treat being carried pretty much like riding. Except he probably doesn't need the ride skill and he can control the undead using his voice instead of handle animal.
Dead called Owb plus animate dead equals bloody skeleton owb.
They're an outsider, but still have a skeleton (even if its just a torso).
The ride skill thing makes some sense, but I'm a little against the idea of letting him get mounted combat for the thing. He's also planning on getting a harness made that keeps the owb's hands free.
While the animate dead will allow him to make a skeleton owlbear, it will not have the flesh required to fly.
I would probably count that exactly as riding with an exotic saddle. Ride isn't a perfect match, but it at least gives you a framework to work with.
How exactly did he animate an Owb? They aren't an option from animate dead or create dead spells.
In any event, just treat being carried pretty much like riding. Except he probably doesn't need the ride skill and he can control the undead using his voice instead of handle animal.
Dead called Owb plus animate dead equals bloody skeleton owb.
They're an outsider, but still have a skeleton (even if its just a torso).
The ride skill thing makes some sense, but I'm a little against the idea of letting him get mounted combat for the thing. He's also planning on getting a harness made that keeps the owb's hands free.
When undead are killed, they are destroyed. The body is not left in a state fit for animation.
You responded more quickly than I could edit. Your initial post lead me to think it was undead for some reason.
In any event, the Owb's flight doesn't seem to be magically powered. It would lose that quality when it's turned into a skeleton.
And if it relied on wings, turning it into a skeleton would cause it to lose flight.
Further, what do you mean when you say "mounted combat" for the thing. I mean, you know anybody can buy a horse or a griffon and ride them into combat. All he's done is avoid having to buy them. Also, he wont benefit much from being mounted because he's a caster. If he does end up using it with a harness (saddle) you should really just run it as a mount.
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When undead are killed, they are destroyed. The body is not left in a state fit for animation.How exactly did he animate an Owb? They aren't an option from animate dead or create dead spells.
In any event, just treat being carried pretty much like riding. Except he probably doesn't need the ride skill and he can control the undead using his voice instead of handle animal.
Dead called Owb plus animate dead equals bloody skeleton owb.
They're an outsider, but still have a skeleton (even if its just a torso).
The ride skill thing makes some sense, but I'm a little against the idea of letting him get mounted combat for the thing. He's also planning on getting a harness made that keeps the owb's hands free.
Owbs are outsiders, not undead.
In any event, the Owb's flight doesn't seem to be magically powered. It would lose that quality when it's turned into a skeleton.
"An owb resembles a floating, legless, humanoid torso draped in shadow."
Sounds magical to me. There's no wings or gas sacks or the like involved. No reason why it wouldn't keep the quality.
The owb's flight is almost certainly magical in nature. The physical description gives no indication of flight through mundane means (quite the opposite, in fact; a human torso shouldn't be able to fly without magic) and it has a perfect fly speed, which I don't think anything with Ex flight has.
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The owb's flight is almost certainly magical in nature. The physical description gives no indication of flight through mundane means (quite the opposite, in fact; a human torso shouldn't be able to fly without magic) and it has a perfect fly speed, which I don't think anything with Ex flight has.
How could you forget everybody's favorite wand monkey.
Anyway, if the thing doesn't have wings, then by default it's flight is Su or Sp, not Ex
Flight (Ex, Sp, or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the creature has wings, flight is an extraordinary ability. Otherwise, it is spell-like or supernatural, and it is ineffective in an antimagic field; the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists. Format: fly 30 ft. (average); Location: Speed.
Can you even animate dead on a dead outsider ? Do they leave corpses ? Owb look like skeletons but that need not mean that they leave it there on death or that it can be animated. Can you animate a dead balor as a skeleton?
Can you even animate dead on a dead outsider ? Do they leave corpses ? Owb look like skeletons but that need not mean that they leave it there on death or that it can be animated. Can you animate a dead balor as a skeleton?
Nothing says that outsiders are different to any other creature with regards to leaving corpses, so they leave corpses. If the creatures has bones, it can be animated as a skeleton, as per Animate Dead and the skeleton template. Owbs don't have any text indicating that they lose their skeletal structure upon death, so they wouldn't lose it.
A balor is a bad example, because they have an ability that explicitly states that they explode (death throes).
Can you even animate dead on a dead outsider ? Do they leave corpses ? Owb look like skeletons but that need not mean that they leave it there on death or that it can be animated. Can you animate a dead balor as a skeleton?
The outsider in question was called, not summoned, so it dies for real and leaves a corpse rather than being sent back to its home plane upon death.
Dead called Owb plus animate dead equals bloody skeleton owb.
Just a quick note here - casting animate dead on a called owb does not automatically create a bloody skeleton, unless the caster was at least 8th level and expended an onyx gem worth 400 gp.
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Dead called Owb plus animate dead equals bloody skeleton owb.Just a quick note here - casting animate dead on a called owb does not automatically create a bloody skeleton, unless the caster was at least 8th level and expended an onyx gem worth 400 gp.
Yeah, he has the onyx and had a temple with a desecration effect to drag the carcass into as well.
The guy's behavior gives the NG Synth Summoner hives but he's LN, and not evil. He only reanimates things that try to murder him, he views it as making them 'pay penance to his god.'
His other go-to servant is a bloody skeleton redcap.
My issue is mostly the 'riding other medium creatures' into battle thing.
I'd deny the character his dex mod to ac while he is being carried, to reflex how he cannot use his body to urge the Owb to move in reaction to danger. Perhaps you would allow him to use the Owbs Dex, but that may give him BENEFIT instead, since it's got 22, and he's a cleric.
Overall, the Owb should be relegated to Flying Mount classification, and if you make him take Undersized Mount (Feat), it eliminates all issues.
Harness? Sounds like an exotic saddle to me.
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Harness? Sounds like an exotic saddle to me.
Yeah, I treated it as an exotic military saddle when he went to a leathersmith. He was shocked to find out it'd cost 140gp.
He was further shocked when the leather smith said he'd probably need to see the creature being described to get the fittings right, and then balked when he saw the owb.
Currently the Owb's carting his butt around with muleback cords. I'm partially inclined to apply a dex penalty to both of them (sort of like quasi grappling) until he gets the harness and/or that feat mentioned higher up in thread.
Yeah, that might work. The player in question keeps trying to bring up that he's wearing a sort of 'harness' and hanging beneath the Owb as if it were a jetpack, as opposed to riding it though.
Umm, I'd disallow this and go with Conall on this one. Said harness is affixed to a creature that, while a bloody skeleton weighs only 20 lbs. Yes, it can CARRY his weight but the actual bones are too weak to hang a cleric from.
Still if he want's to go that route I'd still rule it as an exotic saddle on a Medium sized mount, and all that that entails.
I would. Caster's already get enough nice things, no reason to let him run roughshod over everything else just because he has magic.
There aren't rules for being carried, but they should be at least as bad or worse than riding a mount (which we have rules for). I would honestly just deny him his dex to AC and reflex saves until he was mounted up.
Note, he will either need to become small, increase the owb to large, or get the undersized mount feat to actually ride him as a mount.
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I would. Caster's already get enough nice things, no reason to let him run roughshod over everything else just because he has magic.
There aren't rules for being carried, but they should be at least as bad or worse than riding a mount (which we have rules for). I would honestly just deny him his dex to AC and reflex saves until he was mounted up.
Note, he will either need to become small, increase the owb to large, or get the undersized mount feat to actually ride him as a mount.
He might just grin and bear the dex penalty. Given that he's already carting a tower shield (non proficient) and wearing plate mail (non proficient).
Apply the penalty to the Owb too. And then target and destroy the Owb when he doesn't take action to protect it.
Apply the penalty to the Owb too. And then target and destroy the Owb when he doesn't take action to protect it.Oh I whallop them all the time. Fast healing, DR 5/bludgeoning, and not being destroyed for good go a long way on keeping them operational.
Eh? When an undead is destroyed the first time it is destroyed for good. You can't just keep reviving the same undead.
Eh? When an undead is destroyed the first time it is destroyed for good. You can't just keep reviving the same undead.Apply the penalty to the Owb too. And then target and destroy the Owb when he doesn't take action to protect it.Oh I whallop them all the time. Fast healing, DR 5/bludgeoning, and not being destroyed for good go a long way on keeping them operational.
Based on the first post, "Bloody" is the explanation there.
Eh? When an undead is destroyed the first time it is destroyed for good. You can't just keep reviving the same undead.Apply the penalty to the Owb too. And then target and destroy the Owb when he doesn't take action to protect it.Oh I whallop them all the time. Fast healing, DR 5/bludgeoning, and not being destroyed for good go a long way on keeping them operational.
bloody skeletons, yo.
ah, ninja'd
Can you even animate dead on a dead outsider ? Do they leave corpses ? Owb look like skeletons but that need not mean that they leave it there on death or that it can be animated. Can you animate a dead balor as a skeleton?
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Something is left behind when they are slain. Summoned ones have disappearing corpses, as they reform back wherever they came from. Called ones however, stick around.
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.
Shadow is not corporeal. There may not be much left after the shadow part dissolves away. Remember, the shadow spells are some % real. So, how much of the corpse is real? GM call.
/cevah
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.Shadow is not corporeal. There may not be much left after the shadow part dissolves away. Remember, the shadow spells are some % real. So, how much of the corpse is real? GM call.
/cevah
This is missing the point lol. It's not like they have the incorporeal property.
With further nitpicking I will point to you that the shadow spells (that draw from the shadow plane) are the only spells of the illusion school with tangible effects.
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.Shadow is not corporeal. There may not be much left after the shadow part dissolves away. Remember, the shadow spells are some % real. So, how much of the corpse is real? GM call.
/cevah
This is missing the point lol. It's not like they have the incorporeal property.
With further nitpicking I will point to you that the shadow spells (that draw from the shadow plane) are the only spells of the illusion school with tangible effects.
Not really. My point was that a portion remained. How much was GM call.
/cevah
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.Shadow is not corporeal. There may not be much left after the shadow part dissolves away. Remember, the shadow spells are some % real. So, how much of the corpse is real? GM call.
/cevah
This is missing the point lol. It's not like they have the incorporeal property.
With further nitpicking I will point to you that the shadow spells (that draw from the shadow plane) are the only spells of the illusion school with tangible effects.
Not really. My point was that a portion remained. How much was GM call.
/cevah
Outsiders are made of the plane they come from but they're still tangible unless stated otherwise. Also the Shadow Plane with a capital S is a corporeal plane in perpetual darkness.
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Yeah, that might work. The player in question keeps trying to bring up that he's wearing a sort of 'harness' and hanging beneath the Owb as if it were a jetpack, as opposed to riding it though.
Harness? Sounds like an exotic saddle to me.Yeah, I treated it as an exotic military saddle when he went to a leathersmith. He was shocked to find out it'd cost 140gp.
He was further shocked when the leather smith said he'd probably need to see the creature being described to get the fittings right, and then balked when he saw the owb.
Currently the Owb's carting his butt around with muleback cords. I'm partially inclined to apply a dex penalty to both of them (sort of like quasi grappling) until he gets the harness and/or that feat mentioned higher up in thread.
Hanging with an harness below the owb? It seem grappled to me. As a minimum entangled.
He has no control on the creature movement unless he give it spoken orders.
The skeleton is non intelligent and will follow the last order.
He would be constantly jolted while flying.
The hob will have a light load of 306 lbs. A cleric in mithral will easily stay below that, but he is not on a saddle.
BTW, the flying skill of the undead, skeletal obw is +15 (perfect fly speed + dex 24 [+2 to dex for being a skeleton]). So, if commanded, he can do almost any maneuver, even if we give it a penalty for the guy hanging below it.
I would play it with the skeleton taking the orders literally. go there is "go there in a straight line". complex orders fail as the creature can't comprehend them.
Note that while harnessed the cleric can't move unless he is dragging the obw with him.
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I would. Caster's already get enough nice things, no reason to let him run roughshod over everything else just because he has magic.
There aren't rules for being carried, but they should be at least as bad or worse than riding a mount (which we have rules for). I would honestly just deny him his dex to AC and reflex saves until he was mounted up.
Note, he will either need to become small, increase the owb to large, or get the undersized mount feat to actually ride him as a mount.
He might just grin and bear the dex penalty. Given that he's already carting a tower shield (non proficient) and wearing plate mail (non proficient).
Cleric, meet shadow.
I doubt that someone that routinely animate undead has positive channeling.And using positive channeling while being carried by an flying undead can have .... interesting effects.
What you have here is a magically powered vehicle, not a mount. Between the rules for the bone skiff, and something like a gyro-copter but smaller (and without the rotor of course) you should be able to come up with appropriate stats.
I doubt that someone that routinely animate undead has positive channeling.
And using positive channeling while being carried by an flying undead can have .... interesting effects.
If he has the Death domain at level 8 this is a non-issue
Also, do you want to send a shadow against someone who has command undead?
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I doubt that someone that routinely animate undead has positive channeling.
And using positive channeling while being carried by an flying undead can have .... interesting effects.If he has the Death domain at level 8 this is a non-issue
He has the domain? Possible but not granted (LN, so he can be a cleric of Zon-Kuthon)
And irrelevant, as it say "Death's Embrace (Ex): At 8th level, you heal damage instead of taking damage from channeled negative energy If the channeled negative energy targets undead, you heal hit points just like undead in the area." but I was speaking of using positive energy to harm the shadow
Also, do you want to send a shadow against someone who has command undead?
It depend:
He has spent the feat for that? Again, not granted.And his limit is 8 HD of undead controlled this way. That is 2 regular shados or 0 greater shadow, an encounter with an appropriate CR for his level.
and shadows can't harm each other.
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I doubt that someone that routinely animate undead has positive channeling.
And using positive channeling while being carried by an flying undead can have .... interesting effects.If he has the Death domain at level 8 this is a non-issue
He has the domain? Possible but not granted (LN, so he can be a cleric of Zon-Kuthon)
And irrelevant, as it say "Death's Embrace (Ex): At 8th level, you heal damage instead of taking damage from channeled negative energy If the channeled negative energy targets undead, you heal hit points just like undead in the area." but I was speaking of using positive energy to harm the shadow
Also, do you want to send a shadow against someone who has command undead?It depend:
He has spent the feat for that? Again, not granted.
And his limit is 8 HD of undead controlled this way. That is 2 regular shados or 0 greater shadow, an encounter with an appropriate CR for his level.
and shadows can't harm each other.
Two clarifications.
Cleric's deity: Home setting, not Golarian.
Owb's carry weight: Its got muleback cords on, so its carry weight is ridiculous.
And for all of your (extremely helpful) suggestions, we've got the following three theories on this..
a.) The Owb is a riding mount and requires riding stuff.
b.) The Owb carrying him should remove his dex modifier and require constant spoken commands to operate.
c.) The Owb is a magically powered vehicle and needs to be driven.
Also the #1 drawback I see to the flight by Owb thing is what happens if he's harnessed and another cleric commands the thing.
I think all of this could be solved if he turned into undead a creature that flies magically but still has a body shape suitable for a mount.
A protean maybe?
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I think all of this could be solved if he turned into undead a creature that flies magically but still has a body shape suitable for a mount.
A protean maybe?
Well for that, guy has to take what he can get.
He's somewhat ethical regarding his 'I only animate that which tries to kill me' limit.
Although he doesn't really care about dumb animals. He routinely buys, and kills horses, for resurrection as skeletal mounts.
Anyway if you want to royally screw over him you can try to banish the skeletal owb as it kept the Extraplanar subtype
If the owb has him they are both flatfooted.
That's it. There are no skill checks that the cleric themselves have to make. The owb doesn't require checks because it has perfect maneuverability.
He would have to command it verbally without using a custom made item.
Stop making things more difficult then they have to be...
If he actually ever wants to ride it have him talk to a wizard with the craft wondrous item feat and at least a 10 spellcraft. They can make an constant effect enlarge item to make the owb large size category that way.
It will take a while since he'll have to cast enlarge 100 times.
You know that this post was from 5 years ago don't you
You know that this post was from 5 years ago don't youIf the owb has him they are both flatfooted.
That's it. There are no skill checks that the cleric themselves have to make. The owb doesn't require checks because it has perfect maneuverability.
He would have to command it verbally without using a custom made item.
Stop making things more difficult then they have to be...
If he actually ever wants to ride it have him talk to a wizard with the craft wondrous item feat and at least a 10 spellcraft. They can make an constant effect enlarge item to make the owb large size category that way.
It will take a while since he'll have to cast enlarge 100 times.
Thread necromancy is appropriate here.
