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I am still confused about the huge Eidolon. Normally, Summoner cannot give the large evolution untill level 8. I thought the Summoner was.level 6 in the story? Even if useing those scrolls of a spell higher level than he.can cast and auto succeed on the scroll activation, would that.really allow the Summoner to choose the large evolution when the Summoner is below the minimum required level?
Did thus Summoner get multiple rounds to buff the Eidolon before the fight? If he spent 2 rounds of the actual fight buffing and all the group could do in those rounds was 20% damage, sounds to me like the other characters were rather poorly made.
Published modules are written to be very easy. It is hard not to do a ton of damage unless you lose initiative and go after someone else with a well designed PC did a whole heck of a lit if damage first. Even just going first and then getting a second turn to go first again and kill an enemy would prevent others from getting two rounds of attacks themselves but it would be the same or very close for some raging barbarian with power attack and a 2 handed weapon, of a deaducated archer with rapid shot taking at least 3 attacks turn at level 6. Heck, even arogue with 2wf and a flank could throw.put out a lot of damage turn 2 without a iritive attack!
Summoners ate rather squishy, I don't know howthey don't get killed more often except for almost all published adventures to be written for a bunch of chumps to be able to win.
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The Undead Lord and Vivisectionist archetypes were dropped from PFS because their flavor did not really fit Golarion/Pathfinder Society. If folks look at the APG vs. unchained summoner as a flavor restriction,* it might help.
For summoners, we built into the world the idea of diabolists and demonoligists who summon outsiders to do their bidding; there's a huge amount of this in Cheliax and the Worldwound, for example.
I think Keleshite genie binders and the Ruby Prince* with his elemental aid add a few more options for someone forming a 'close bond with an outsider' using Golorian lore.
Outsiders are specific in Golorian so try to look at it not from what you can't build but what you can find in Golarion. Many of us did this when we built our APG summoners, and the transition is actually pretty simple (I'd gain two attacks in the new system, but I doubt I will change for the last 3 chronicles of my dash one.)
Is there a place in Golorian where ancestors manifest themselves? That sounds vaguely Linnorm kings, but maybe I am thinking of something else. If so look there and see how they are (mechanically) treated. In my mind an ancestor is undead (but Eberron taught me there are positive energy undead ;) not outsiders. I can get behind the argument that they have become some form of angel though.
Nethys' servant is a "succubus-like" creature, not a succubus (demon/angel/agatheon build?), though I am quoting pathfinderwiki and not the source.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Is there a place in Golorian where ancestors manifest themselves? That sounds vaguely Linnorm kings, but maybe I am thinking of something else. If so look there and see how they are (mechanically) treated. In my mind an ancestor is undead (but Eberron taught me there are positive energy undead ;) not outsiders. I can get behind the argument that they have become some form of angel though.
If I understand the lore correctly, most if not all the creatures living in the outer planes are the spirits of the dead, brought to the plane that most matches their deeds in life, and then shaped by the plane into an outsider. The longer they are there, the higher they rise, the more they are reshaped into ever more powerful forms.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Or, as has also happened in these situations, the summoner missed the rule and / or misbuilt the eidolon. In previous threads like this, people have managed to track down the build in question only to find it was grossly illegal.
Or, it could be that the eidolon rolled high on initiave and was a pounce build, and killed most things before anyone else got a turn.
Lots of scenarios.
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I wasn't referring to the outsider as religious figures, but the ones that are now specified are specifically the ones that are associated with religon... (I.E. Angels, Daemons, Devils, Psychopomps et al)
They appear mostly in Golarion's Religous texts, and while you could make them as such before, you are now FORCED to make them that way... seems dumb to me for it to remain an arcane caster now that it is tied to these outsiders....
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Or, as has also happened in these situations, the summoner missed the rule and / or misbuilt the eidolon. In previous threads like this, people have managed to track down the build in question only to find it was grossly illegal.
Or, it could be that the eidolon rolled high on initiave and was a pounce build, and killed most things before anyone else got a turn.
Lots of scenarios.
Yeah, and given the number of times the mantra of "you don't have to know the rules for every one of the classes to GM for them, just trust that your players have done it right" gets told to GMs on these boards, the old summoner created a lot of problems.
Not every summoner player built monstrosities that when audited were built incorrectly, but every one I bothered auditing had.|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Quinton, what outsider were you previously able to build that is not an outer planer resident, that you now cannot build?
Because these were the outsiders you had access to before, it's just that players kept making up their own, as if the summoner was a god with the power to create brand new creatures out of raw mana.
Yeah, and given the number of times the mantra of "you don't have to know the rules for every one of the classes to GM for them, just trust that your players have done it right" gets told to GMs on these boards, the old summoner created a lot of problems.
Not every summoner player built monstrosities that when audited were built incorrectly, but every one I bothered auditing had.
First time I've heard it on the boards.
Hmm... I will throw my 2 coppers in.
Every time I've seen a summoner completely overshadow the rest of the party, it was built and/or played against the rules. I don't think it was ever intentional, but it was not in compliance.
What do I mean by that?
If you look at a fairly 'green' X-Class built and played by someone new to the system and call that the low end of the class possibilities. Then you look at a very 'optimal' X-Class built and played by a master of the system and call that the high end of the class possibilities.
Most 'average' builds are going to be somewhere a lot closer to the middle of that low-high spectrum.
A 'green' wizard is, frankly, usually crap (unless the player gets and is willing to accept an awful lot of help and advice, in which case it is no longer 'green'). It won't accomplish much and will probably die quickly.
An 'optimal' wizard on the other hand is (after a few levels) nearly unbelievably powerful in relation to most other characters. There is a reason the call them god-wizards.
The 'average wizard that you usually see is somewhere in the middle. They're squishy but pretty powerful and useful most of the time.
A 'green' APG summoner is actually pretty dang good. An even semi-reasonable legal eidolon is quite useful. And even if it dies, they can just start summoning creatures which are almost automatically good.
The 'optimal' APG summoner isn't quite as good as an 'optimal' wizard, but most would put it at least in the same ball park.
Thus the 'average' APG summoner that you usually see, is fairly likely to be better than the 'average' wizard that you usually see.
I do think the summoner needed the nerf it got in unchained. I'm not quite so sure it needed as much of a nerf as it got though. And I must say I was disappointed to see the amount of customizability lost. But I understand why. It is very difficult to make something customizable that isn't wide open to abuse.
{ Anyone else remember Skills & Powers? }
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Quinton, what outsider were you previously able to build that is not an outer planer resident, that you now cannot build?
Actually, this point needs to be clear. The outsiders we are forced into now, were available before BUT, were not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known outsiders.
Ultimate Magic showed us that not all outsiders fell into those groups. Dragon, fey, even animal like creatures, were all summonable, thus they must have existed. In fact, the majority of the models published in UM were models of creatures not normally associated with outsiders.
A specific example?
You can no longer make a LG Lion like eidolon. To my knowledge, all the LG options are bipeds, where as the Lion is clearly quadruped. Only way to make him now (that I am aware of) is to turn this noble and regal creature into a fiend.
And please do not try to say that Lion like creatures are not Lawful or Good. The summon monster list already disagrees with you Summoning Celestial Lions, as well as the existence of the resolute template.
I am all for opening things up to more outside races.
But remember that the celestial lions you summon are unintelligent animals, not sentient outsiders. There has never been the ability for a summoner to have a non sentient Eidolon. (Actually, I think it would be a pretty cool option for an archtype. It's Eidolon would probably have to be more like an animal companion, but it would be pretty cool.)
As for summoning Fey, that is what first world summoner is for, though it is going to have to probably be completely rebuilt to fit it to the new summoner. (for one thing, fey should be it's own subtype.)
But these are not problems with the class, these are problems with the fact that we don't have all the addons out yet. Yes, it would have been nice to have every potential outsider available when the class came out, but that is a pretty unattainable goal.
It is as if PFS had made the "build your own race" part of the Advanced Race Guide legal for PFS play. It is a tool that was meant to be used with the supervision of a GM to rein in excesses, or used by the GM to populate his own custom world and you have told the players they can do what they want with it. Now PFS has (effectively) said, "Hey guys, you can only use the races where we have prebuilt half the package." They could have gone even further (as the did with actual races) and said "Here is the list of outsiders you can have as eidolons, this is the evolution each one gets at each level." In otherwords, instead of being allowed to build "an azata" you could have been only allowed to build a Bralani Azata or a Ghaele Azata.
Also. I call Hyperbole.
You can no longer make a LG Lion like eidolon. To my knowledge, all the LG options are bipeds, where as the Lion is clearly quadruped. Only way to make him now (that I am aware of) is to turn this noble and regal creature into a fiend.And please do not try to say that Lion like creatures are not Lawful or Good. The summon monster list already disagrees with you Summoning Celestial Lions, as well as the existence of the resolute template.
Agathions are Nuetral Good Quadrupeds. That gets you your celestial lion. I don't believe you usually get resolute and celestial, usually it is one or the other. Now, the fact that there are no resolute lions is a defect I am hoping to see remedied in the expansions, but since you can't summon lawful sentient lions, you can't really say that lawful sentient lions are out there.
A bigger problem is that you cannot make a Lawful Good horse, or even a Nuetral Good horse, which is a problem several of us are trying to lobby to fix, and please join us in our efforts to convince them to add agathion to the list of subtypes that can take mount.
But the class is not the problem. The class is the solution to the fact that players were abusing the freedom of the old system. The class *has* problems, most of which are that it is very young and needs more addons, but those are fixed by enthusiastically supporting the class and convincing Paizo to make more books for it. (In a home game, it would be fixed simply by the GM adding subtypes to the list. Sadly, Mike Brock has too many other things to do and is unlikely to make up custom subtypes for us. :(
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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To make my parallel as explicit as possible
Actually, this point needs to be clear. The outsiders we are forced into now, were available before BUT, were not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known outsiders.
"The races we are forced into now, are not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known races."
Are you really saying every PC should be allowed to build their character using everything in chapter 4: Race builder of the Advanced Race Guide? Because that is basically what the APG summoner got to do.
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My problem isn't with the crunch, it is the Fluff....
While the skill may be Knowledge: Planes to identify these outsiders (and I was using hyperbole to make my point, the Primals, the Elementals and the Inevitables aren't directly linked to a religion as far as I know) all the rest function as major parts of the religious background of Golarion. Or are you claiming that the DEMONS, ANGELS, and other direct agents of the gods of Golarion are not religious in nature?
Sorry, but it feels more to me like this class should have been renamed, and had it's spell list converted to a divine list.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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You can still have a competent mount or body guard.
The custom race builder is unbalanced because a lot of prebuilt races spend most of their points in flavor, and the GM gets to nix any that are too unbalanced or too clearly written with optimization as the goal instead of flavor.
The APG Eidolon is the same deal. Granted the powers it gets are weaker (although 1 point pounce is kind of ridiculous.) and are not as front loaded. The race builder gets all those powers at level one, and then never advances. The Eidolon has to wait but gets a lot of powers down the road.
The fact remains, the APG Eidolon is a perfect example of open race building in a system where every other class has to use prebuilt races. This is unbalanced both out of character (in that it allows gross amounts of optimization) and in character (as it implies that the summoner has the god like power to craft new races from nothing but his imagination.)
As someone said earlier. The summoner is no longer the mystic master of the universe. In otherwords, the complaint is that the summoner is no longer a god. I feel this is a good thing.
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To make my parallel as explicit as possible
Actually, this point needs to be clear. The outsiders we are forced into now, were available before BUT, were not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known outsiders."The races we are forced into now, are not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known races."
Are you really saying every PC should be allowed to build their character using everything in chapter 4: Race builder of the Advanced Race Guide? Because that is basically what the APG summoner got to do.
I'm certain that's not what the poster meant at all. Summoner got a customizable pet. Not all classes get to fully customize, and technically, neither does the Summoner. Either way, that's ok.
As to your comparison of Eidolons and the ARG build your own race, this is comparing apples and oranges. Race and class feature are too different to compare them for PFS/game appropriateness. Everyone has to choose a locked race, even Summoners. Everyone has class features that allow for some customization.
I loved being able to customize the pet, it allows for a lot more creativity from the player. Conceptually, I could have any kind of being/monster/whatever as a pet. Why is that bad? Why do you feel it a good idea that they take that away from Summoner players? Seems to me like if you want to reign in OP Summoners, you just increase the evo point cost on some of the powerful evolutions (like pounce).
What we have now is a chained Summoner. Predetermined pets, both in mechanics and in concept, that Paizo decides on for us. If there are any concepts we want outside of unchained, we are hosed, until Paizo publishes more templates (which they may or may not do), and which I have to pay additional money to have access to. Funnily enough, the cynic in me says that was partially the motivation for this change. "Want more eidolon templates? Of course you can't build your own, pay us money for them!" Whether or not that was even in the conversation, that DOES become a nice little financial perk for them.
/sigh.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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To make my parallel as explicit as possible
Actually, this point needs to be clear. The outsiders we are forced into now, were available before BUT, were not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known outsiders."The races we are forced into now, are not the whole collection. The ones we must use now are only the biggest and best known races."
Are you really saying every PC should be allowed to build their character using everything in chapter 4: Race builder of the Advanced Race Guide? Because that is basically what the APG summoner got to do.
I'm certain that's not what the poster meant at all. Summoner got a customizable pet. Not all classes get to fully customize, and technically, neither does the Summoner. Either way, that's ok.
As to your comparison of Eidolons and the ARG build your own race, this is comparing apples and oranges. Race and class feature are too different to compare them for PFS/game appropriateness. Everyone has to choose a locked race, even Summoners. Everyone has class features that allow for some customization.
Not really, because what you are building is effectively your Eidolons Race.
That wouldn't be a problem if everyone spent the points to give the races the flavor appropriate to the race, and then spent the rest of the points getting the things they want. But as it is, you wind up with a small subset of players doing things like building fire elementals with no fire resistance to squeeze in more points for offense. Creatures that make no sense in the flavor of the setting, but only in the realm of game optimization.
To rein in these people, they have three options:
Cut evo points.
Raise costs.
Require points to be spent on specific things.
What they wound up doing was a little bit of all three. They cut evo points, but they gave some of them back to you in the form of free things that they want you to buy. They raised pounce, (but I don't think they raised anything else?) They said Creatures from this plane don't have this characteristic (Good creatures cannot take poison, because in the aligment paradigm of pathfinder, poison use is evil.)
I'm not a huge fan of the locked body type thing, but if they say "look all intelligent creatures in this race are humanoid" that is their setting.
Yes, there are other races out there. Just like there are other races in the material plane. Not all of those races are permitted for PCs. Not all the outsider races are appropriate allies for PC summoners.
If you want to play a game where you can freely customize your characters, Hero System and GURPS are out there. I have never heard of an OP campaign for GURPS or HERO. I'm guessing there is a reason.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Are you really saying every PC should be allowed to build their character using everything in chapter 4: Race builder of the Advanced Race Guide? Because that is basically what the APG summoner got to do.
In what world is being able to custom design SLA, resistances, ability bonuses and penalties for yourself the same as having a competent mount/bodyguard?
A few things the ARG allows (in chapter 4) (Standard race gets 10 points)
Large Size, for 7 points: at first level, allowing Enlarge Person to become Huge at 1st. Speaking of which...
Spell Like Ability, for 1 point: You can gain Enlarge Person, once per day.
Hell, for 2 points you can have Enlarge Person as an At Will ability.
Course, on the flip side for casters. You can be tiny for 4 points. Tack on at will shield or mage armor, and flight and you have an unholy wizard, even at level 1 (17 AC with 0 investment on Dex, as well as at least a +9 to stealth, more if you actually try to improve it)
Spell resistance 11+HD, starting at first level. Total cost, 3 race points. Yes the Summoner can get this one too. For 4 evolution points, at level 9, not level 1.(Wierdly the Large race attribute does not grant reach. So as far as I am concerned, you are getting +1 damage, in exchange for not fitting most places you want to go and being -2 AC. I'm not sure I would take that for 7 points. Would you?)
The summoner can barely do a fraction of these, and many it has to work up too. As a race, it is automatic at first level...
You have either greatly overestimated the summoner, or never even looked at the ARG race builder.
I forgot to go back and comment on this, because it is not terribly relevant.
With the exception of Large (which would eat most of your points) and Tiny, which would actually cost 7 points, since it requires a 3 point (minimum) template as a prereq, and SLA once per day, most of what you laid out requires you to be an advanced race, if not a monsterous one (SLA at will is monsterous, as in only for races with 20+ points.)
So what you have really shown is that there are two highly abuseable options in the race rules, that if Players had access to would cause a lot of problems. I am saying there are one or two highly abuseable options in the Eidolon rules, that if the Players had access to would cause a lot of problems. The Eidolon fix is far more generous than the fix that was made to the Race rules (aka, you can't use them.)
(And wierdly, Large doesn't grant reach or con adjustment. So you are paying 7 points for +1 to damage, and -2 to AC and -1 feat if you actually want to follow the rest of the party most places. Um. Sure, Have fun.)
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@FLite: I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You seem convinced that the Summoner likes to hang out behind the school, beating up the other classes, and laughing as they try to crawl away. I have always viewed them as the class that is being beaten up, daily. This latest beating earning the class a coffin.
In my experience, as a PFS GM, APG Summoners are, as a rule, broken, even if they manage, somehow, to actually build their Eidolon correctly.
GMed a game with two Eidolons with Summoners in it. That covered most of the actions in the game.
Your experience may be different. Then again, one or both of us may be looking at our experiences with summoners and their whatsits through colored glasses.
I haven't had a chance to really look through the UInchained Summoner, but I ma fairly sure that, despite having to modify the flavor of my APG Summoner (level 3, played), I will still prefer to swap him over to Unchained instead. Maybe that's because, even though I thought I had built my eidolon correctly, I have made errors in the build.
And, no, I am not a newbie, I am not math deficient, I have been playing RPGs since 1979, including Champions/Hero System, so I am very experienced with number calculation during character builds. I was also noted, in school, for breaking the curve, for the erest of the class, by scoring too well on the math tests.
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@FLite: I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You seem convinced that the Summoner likes to hang out behind the school, beating up the other classes, and laughing as they try to crawl away. I have always viewed them as the class that is being beaten up, daily. This latest beating earning the class a coffin.In my experience, as a PFS GM, APG Summoners are, as a rule, broken, even if they manage, somehow, to actually build their Eidolon correctly.
GMed a game with two Eidolons with Summoners in it. That covered most of the actions in the game.
You would probally say the same thing however with 2 druids, or 2 wizards. I do not think anyone has tried to say the summoner is weak, but my stance is that it was not so over powered to warrant a nerf (not unless the rest of the tier 1 classes are getting an axe or 3 forced on them).
Guess it does come down to experiences with the class. The summoner I played had trouble outshining any of the others in anything. Even the rogue was keeping up in damage and outshone me in skills. Probably helped to have constant flanking, thanks to the reach bite my Dragon eidolon had in combat.
Nope, played with both of those, and, since they were properly built, didn't hang off of walls with reach, didn't abuse their spell lists, they were manageable, and the rest of the table had fun.
To be honest, if the Wizard is Tier 1, the APG Summoner, especially when the eidolon gets mis-built, moves into Tier 0.
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@FLite: I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You seem convinced that the Summoner likes to hang out behind the school, beating up the other classes, and laughing as they try to crawl away. I have always viewed them as the class that is being beaten up, daily. This latest beating earning the class a coffin.In my experience, as a PFS GM, APG Summoners are, as a rule, broken, even if they manage, somehow, to actually build their Eidolon correctly.
GMed a game with two Eidolons with Summoners in it. That covered most of the actions in the game.
You would probally say the same thing however with 2 druids, or 2 wizards. I do not think anyone has tried to say the summoner is weak, but my stance is that it was not so over powered to warrant a nerf (not unless the rest of the tier 1 classes are getting an axe or 3 forced on them).
Guess it does come down to experiences with the class. The summoner I played had trouble outshining any of the others in anything. Even the rogue was keeping up in damage and outshone me in skills. Probably helped to have constant flanking, thanks to the reach bite my Dragon eidolon had in combat.
Nope, played with both of those, and, since they were properly built, didn't hang off of walls with reach, didn't abuse their spell lists, they were manageable, and the rest of the table had fun.
To be honest, if the Wizard is Tier 1, the APG Summoner, especially when the eidolon gets mis-built, moves into Tier 0.
Got to love that catch 22. The druid did not do it's stupid overpowered tricks, nor did the wizard. Not that they could not do em, The Player choose not too.
On that same token, the summoner's player DID choose to use it's most powerful options.
Again, all the issues with Summoner can be solved, not through the use of a Nerf Hammer, but through the Golden RPGer's Rule (Do not be a Jerk).
Someday, you will stop making assumptions about what others mean, and catch what they are saying, instead.
Abuse spell list? APG Summoner spell list is, very, abusive, with early access to spells that should not be in their purview.
Sure, a druid can buff their AC.
Sure, a wizard can build for insane save DCs.
A Summoner can do the same, and, because they don't understand the rules on building eidolons, they move from overpowered because they are built wrong, to insanely overpowered because they are also now buffed to the max, frequently using spells that shouldn't be on the Summoner's spell list because they are not appropriate to the theme of a summoner.
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... make what the Summoner can do look like a toddler swinging a stick around playing make-believe.
Depends on the context.
If you have a PFS game sitting down a bunch of players with 0xp and 0pp and there's a wizard and an APG summoner (built correctly) at the table...
The wizard, regardless of the mastery of the build, looks fairly medoicre. His best schtick is maybe Color Spray which could be fairly limited in value in an undead-heavy scenario.
The 0xp Summoner can almost hang with the 0xp wizard. They both can cast a fairly high DC Grease (arguably one of the most useful things to do at 0xp). They can both cast Daze or Acid Splash to their heart's content. The wizard maybe has one extra spell over the summoner - a mediocre damage spell (suped up burning hands for 3d4)? Sleep?
On top of being comparable as 0xp casters, the 0xp Summoner can parade out a basic pouncing eidolon, who has darkvision, Power Attack and can charge for +5/+5/+5 1d6+5/1d4+5/1d4+5.
Ultimately, that's what makes other plays go "huhhhh?" when they are playing a barbarian, paladin, fighter or whatever. The 0xp, 18-Str melee paladin, Power Attacking while smiting is swinging for 2d6+10 and still can't match the eidolon's damage output.
Ultimately, this is why pounce should've never been available at level 1 for 1 evolution point, but should've come online at level 7 when a druid's animal companion is allowed to pounce. I'd still lobby for Paizo to errata the APG pounce evolution to require level 7, because then it's likely a lot of the people complaining about the UC summoner vs APG summoner would see them as more comparable at levels 1-6.
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Every time people talk about eidolon attacks vs a barbarian or paladin's attacks, they never seem to mention how horribly inaccurate the eidolon is. The extra attacks are nice, but they almost never all hit!
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Can you give us more on that sorcerer build? I know parts of it, but 5d6+10 at first level is a little hard to swallow. :)Crossblooded Sorcerer. Select Orc and Draconic Bloodlines. Each Bloodline Arcana adds +1 damage per damage die rolled by spell for +2/die.
Next, we need to be effective caster level 5. Start at 1, add Spell Specialization for +2 caster levels (requires Spell Focus Evocation, so we're human for the bonus feat.) Then add Gifted Adept for +1. I don't recall offhand where the fifth caster level comes from, it might be Varisian Tattoo off of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype, it might be something else. There's options. Could make it worse by adding an Alchemist Fire as an optional material component so that one enemy that fails their save catches fire as well, but generally the 5d6+10 is enough to make things disappear so the catching on fire is pretty much overkill.
What I'm wondering is how it get from d4s to d6s...
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Can you give us more on that sorcerer build? I know parts of it, but 5d6+10 at first level is a little hard to swallow. :)Crossblooded Sorcerer. Select Orc and Draconic Bloodlines. Each Bloodline Arcana adds +1 damage per damage die rolled by spell for +2/die.
Next, we need to be effective caster level 5. Start at 1, add Spell Specialization for +2 caster levels (requires Spell Focus Evocation, so we're human for the bonus feat.) Then add Gifted Adept for +1. I don't recall offhand where the fifth caster level comes from, it might be Varisian Tattoo off of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype, it might be something else. There's options. Could make it worse by adding an Alchemist Fire as an optional material component so that one enemy that fails their save catches fire as well, but generally the 5d6+10 is enough to make things disappear so the catching on fire is pretty much overkill.
Secret of the Impossible Kingdom regional trait will give +1 CL as well. You may get guff for two +1 CL traits.
You could get Varisian Tattoo, but the only way to get it at 1 is the Tattooed Sorcerer, and it doesn't stack with Crossblooded.
It would be 5d4+10 instead of 5d6+10 too assuming you went burning hands, any of the 5d6+10 options are single target.
Contributor
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Can you give us more on that sorcerer build? I know parts of it, but 5d6+10 at first level is a little hard to swallow. :)Crossblooded Sorcerer. Select Orc and Draconic Bloodlines. Each Bloodline Arcana adds +1 damage per damage die rolled by spell for +2/die.
Next, we need to be effective caster level 5. Start at 1, add Spell Specialization for +2 caster levels (requires Spell Focus Evocation, so we're human for the bonus feat.) Then add Gifted Adept for +1. I don't recall offhand where the fifth caster level comes from, it might be Varisian Tattoo off of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype, it might be something else. There's options. Could make it worse by adding an Alchemist Fire as an optional material component so that one enemy that fails their save catches fire as well, but generally the 5d6+10 is enough to make things disappear so the catching on fire is pretty much overkill.
I knew most of those. But, thank you anyway. :)
How is he increasing the die type, though? I don't know of anything that does that...
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So either minimal damage, or 3 attacks getting damage only slightly better then a smiting paladin.
You realize you are comparing something a level 1 paladin can only do once a day and only on a single enemy, and only on evil enemies (which can be a crapshoot at level 1 since many things dont detect properly because they dont have enough HD) to something the eidolon can do all day long to anything it wants?
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Can you give us more on that sorcerer build? I know parts of it, but 5d6+10 at first level is a little hard to swallow. :)Crossblooded Sorcerer. Select Orc and Draconic Bloodlines. Each Bloodline Arcana adds +1 damage per damage die rolled by spell for +2/die.
Next, we need to be effective caster level 5. Start at 1, add Spell Specialization for +2 caster levels (requires Spell Focus Evocation, so we're human for the bonus feat.) Then add Gifted Adept for +1. I don't recall offhand where the fifth caster level comes from, it might be Varisian Tattoo off of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype, it might be something else. There's options. Could make it worse by adding an Alchemist Fire as an optional material component so that one enemy that fails their save catches fire as well, but generally the 5d6+10 is enough to make things disappear so the catching on fire is pretty much overkill.
I knew most of those. But, thank you anyway. :)
How is he increasing the die type, though? I don't know of anything that does that...
I don't either. He could be using Snowball or Shocking Grasp, but Burning Hands is clearly the better option for maxing the pain. Of course, if anything survives the inferno, there is going to be one dead first level sorcerer very soon.
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You realize you are comparing something a level 1 paladin can only do once a day and only on a single enemy, and only on evil enemies (which can be a crapshoot at level 1 since many things dont detect properly because they dont have enough HD) to something the eidolon can do all day long to anything it wants?
So either minimal damage, or 3 attacks getting damage only slightly better then a smiting paladin.Yes, however, if you look up (about 14 posts) you will see the original argument used smiting paladin vs pouncing eidolon as the basis. As such, the comparison was set with those parameters.
Additionally, a first level paladin is adding all of a +1 to damage, +2 if the foe is undead (cause how many outsiders and dragons have you seen in subtier 1-2, I count 1 from my play experience).
I am sure, if people looked, they could find the past comparisons. While the Eidolon usually wins the minimum damage, average is often only a point or 2 and max can go either way. Barbarian and bloodrager doing upper 20s, hunter getting in at 26 (bow), Rogue sneaking in at 24 (yes I am applying sneak attack to this).
You are highly overvaluing pure single-hit damage and undervaluing multiple attacks. The issue at low levels is generally not dropping the enemy, but hitting them. Hitting the upper 20s on single-hit damage will be a total waste against almost all enemies at level 1, and you will likely have only a 50% chance to hit an average AC enemy. An eidolon with multiple natural attacks can still drop most enemies in one hit, it's more likely to hit one in any given round, and it can possibly take down multiple targets in one round.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Only sort of.
Assuming the idea is a gnomish inventor who summons his inventions from the realm of Ideal forms, You could go with an inevitable as the base (half construct, half outsider.)
Now your gnomish inventor concept is actually *stronger* than before because he is actually summoning inventions, not flesh and blood outsiders, as a bonus, they get a bunch of construct like immunities.
There is the drawback that he is limited to bipedal forms. I am hoping that we will eventually get more subtypes and forms. (Most inevitables seem to be buildable as bipeds, except that some seem to have sold back their legs.)
Take Evolutionist archtype, and he can "rework" his invention in between missions.