Unchained Summoner

[Dafydd]

Hrothdane wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

Hrothdane wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

So either minimal damage, or 3 attacks getting damage only slightly better then a smiting paladin.

You realize you are comparing something a level 1 paladin can only do once a day and only on a single enemy, and only on evil enemies (which can be a crapshoot at level 1 since many things dont detect properly because they dont have enough HD) to something the eidolon can do all day long to anything it wants?

Yes, however, if you look up (about 14 posts) you will see the original argument used smiting paladin vs pouncing eidolon as the basis. As such, the comparison was set with those parameters.

Additionally, a first level paladin is adding all of a +1 to damage, +2 if the foe is undead (cause how many outsiders and dragons have you seen in subtier 1-2, I count 1 from my play experience).

I am sure, if people looked, they could find the past comparisons. While the Eidolon usually wins the minimum damage, average is often only a point or 2 and max can go either way. Barbarian and bloodrager doing upper 20s, hunter getting in at 26 (bow), Rogue sneaking in at 24 (yes I am applying sneak attack to this).

You are highly overvaluing pure single-hit damage and undervaluing multiple attacks. The issue at low levels is generally not dropping the enemy, but hitting them. Hitting the upper 20s on single-hit damage will be a total waste against almost all enemies at level 1, and you will likely have only a 50% chance to hit an average AC enemy. An eidolon with multiple natural attacks can still drop most enemies in one hit, it's more likely to hit one in any given round, and it can possibly take down multiple targets in one round.

Lets test this a little. Parameters, best possible situation, AC target of 14

Eidolon, Power Attack, Pounce
+4/+4/+4, not bad, will hit any given attack 45% of the time

Paladin, Power Attack, Smite(CHA 14), Charge
+9, so 1 hit, but going to hit roughly 70% of the time

Barbarian, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Rage, Charge
+9, 1 attack but still 70% chance

Hunter, Bow, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot (no one messing up the shot)
+3/+3, 40% chance to hit, but this is ranged (30ft)

Rogue, Two Weapon Fighting (+feat), Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack
+2/+2, vs Flat footed AC (lets say 12), 45% chance
+4/+4, cause of flanking, still 45% as unlikely to be flatfooted and flanked

So better chance then the hunter with a bow, same chance as 2wf rogue, and a much lower chance compared to Paladin and Barbarian. Should also note that while I said Best Possible, I only gave Flank to the Rogue. Hunter was ranged, but the others all could have gotten flank. However, it is much easier for the paladin and barbarian to move into flank. The real benefit is the 3 attacks they get, which means more then likely 1 attack will hit of those 3 (mind the damage for just 1 attack is all of 7-12 for a bite, 5-9 for a claw which is much less then any of the other 1 hits)

[Curaigh]

Ryzoken wrote:

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I am still still confused on how an pouncing Eidolon at level 1 gets + 5 on damage rolls?

Str 16 + Power Attack, if I had to hazard a guess.

Specifically, it starts as Quad, takes Ability Increase(Str) to hit that magic number 16, takes Power Attack for its level 1 feat. Eats up exactly 3 Evo points, 2 for +Str, 1 for Pounce.

How does a quad eidolon at 1st level have pounce, ability increase and get a second attack? Maybe I should ask 'What good is pounce if you only have one attack' (1 ep for pounce & claws/slam/bite, 2 ep for ability increase.)

EDIT: Dafydd, can you break down those numbers on attack?
if pounce is optimized I think the PCs would have to play an 18 or 20 in the stat ability for comparison
EDIT EDIT: charge+flank is not as easy to accomplish, assuming one or the other seems close enough for comparision.

[redward]

And then the Summoner brings in an eagle on the same turn for another three attacks.

[Jeff Merola]

redward wrote:

And then the Summoner brings in an eagle on the same turn for another three attacks.

The SLA cannot be used while the Eidolon is out, and it requires a Standard to dismiss the Eidolon.

[redward]

Jeff Merola wrote:

redward wrote:

And then the Summoner brings in an eagle on the same turn for another three attacks.

The SLA cannot be used while the Eidolon is out, and it requires a Standard to dismiss the Eidolon.

Ah yes, I forgot. But the summoner still gets to act, summoning (full round), casting or performing its own attacks.

[Curaigh]

Curaigh wrote:

The Undead Lord and Vivisectionist archetypes were dropped from PFS because their flavor did not really fit Golarion/Pathfinder Society. If folks look at the APG vs. unchained summoner as a flavor restriction,* it might help.

James Jacobs wrote:

For summoners, we built into the world the idea of diabolists and demonoligists who summon outsiders to do their bidding; there's a huge amount of this in Cheliax and the Worldwound, for example.

I think Keleshite genie binders and the Ruby Prince* with his elemental aid add a few more options for someone forming a 'close bond with an outsider' using Golorian lore.

Outsiders are specific in Golorian so try to look at it not from what you can't build but what you can find in Golarion. Many of us did this when we built our APG summoners, and the transition is actually pretty simple (I'd gain two attacks in the new system, but I doubt I will change for the last 3 chronicles of my dash one.)

Is there a place in Golorian where ancestors manifest themselves? That sounds vaguely Linnorm kings, but maybe I am thinking of something else. If so look there and see how they are (mechanically) treated. In my mind an ancestor is undead (but Eberron taught me there are positive energy undead ;) not outsiders. I can get behind the argument that they have become some form of angel though.

* yes, I am aware the OP change is probably more social than flavorful, yes I realize he is a cleric (and a 3.5 cleric/pre summoner originally)

This part got me thinking of how to make an ancestral eidolon. I use the ancestors of Galdur XXI as the flavor of his guidance spells which has led to some interesting RP opportunities. So I am a little intrigued by the potential. I found two possible connections ancestral sprits which is technically a deity. White furred kitsune have a strong connection to their spiritual ancestors and the fox tie works for agathon eidolons, which just happens to have biped and quadraped options. Elves & fey could use azatas, and psychopomps (I think already mentioned up thread) could be waiting to serve as witness for the ancestor.

yet again, I am adding way more options that interest me than I have time to play :)

[Tamec]

redward wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

redward wrote:

And then the Summoner brings in an eagle on the same turn for another three attacks.

The SLA cannot be used while the Eidolon is out, and it requires a Standard to dismiss the Eidolon.

Ah yes, I forgot. But the summoner still gets to act, summoning (full round), casting or performing its own attacks.

What I've seen is the level 10 summoner uses the SLA to (superior) summon multiple summon monster 4 creatures. Then he casts Summon Eidolon and has all fighting the monsters then places a dazing wall of fire behind (or on top of) the enemy.

This happened at a Con game I ran.

[Ryzoken]

Kalindlara wrote:

Ryzoken wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Can you give us more on that sorcerer build? I know parts of it, but 5d6+10 at first level is a little hard to swallow. :)

Crossblooded Sorcerer. Select Orc and Draconic Bloodlines. Each Bloodline Arcana adds +1 damage per damage die rolled by spell for +2/die.

Next, we need to be effective caster level 5. Start at 1, add Spell Specialization for +2 caster levels (requires Spell Focus Evocation, so we're human for the bonus feat.) Then add Gifted Adept for +1. I don't recall offhand where the fifth caster level comes from, it might be Varisian Tattoo off of the Tattooed Sorcerer archetype, it might be something else. There's options. Could make it worse by adding an Alchemist Fire as an optional material component so that one enemy that fails their save catches fire as well, but generally the 5d6+10 is enough to make things disappear so the catching on fire is pretty much overkill.

I knew most of those. But, thank you anyway. :)

How is he increasing the die type, though? I don't know of anything that does that...

Oh, blerg. Brain fart. 5d4+10. It's a rather moot point since not much survives the 15 minimum damage. Half the time he doesn't need to bother rolling damage, it's only when stuff saves that he needs to.

[FLite]

I have a vague recolection of seeing something, somewhere that let you shift the die from 1d4 to 1d6, but I have no idea where, and it probably wasn't 1st level anyway.

[Raymond Lambert]

Thanks for explaining the +5 damage was likely 2pt str boost and power attack.

To return the favor, I will answer the question asking hiw it could afford 2 str, 1 pounce, 1 extra attack. I suspect the Summoner itself took the extra evolution feat for 4 points total at level 1.

[Dafydd]

Curaigh wrote:

EDIT: Dafydd, can you break down those numbers on attack?

if pounce is optimized I think the PCs would have to play an 18 or 20 in the stat ability for comparison

EDIT EDIT: charge+flank is not as easy to accomplish, assuming one or the other seems close enough for comparision.

Sure,

Eidolon: 1HD(d10)[+1], 14 STR[+2], Power Attack[-1], Charge[+2] for a total of +5 on each attack, Bite/Claw/Claw

Paladin: 1HD(d10)[+1], 18 STR[+4], Smite(CHA 14)[+2], Power Attack[-1], Charge[+2], Weapon Focus[+1] for a grand total of +8 [seem to have added a +1 in the earlier post, will go back and edit that if I can] [found my worksheet, forgot to add a weapon focus into the list]

Barbarian: 1HD(d12)[+1], 18 STR[+4], Rage(+4 to STR)[+2], Power Attack+Furious Focus[-0], Charge[+2] for a grand total of +9

Hunter: 1HD(d8)[+0], DEX 18[+4], Point Blank Shot[+1, within 30ft, but I did note that], Rapid Shot[-2/-2, makes 2 attacks], No cover[-0] at a grand total of +3/+3 within 30 ft.

Rogue: 1HD(d8)[+0], DEX 18[+4], Two Weapon Fighting(+ the feat)[-2/-2] for a +2/+2. I did add sneak attack, either through flanking or the foe being flatfooted (assuming half the foe's bonuses were DEX, getting a target of 12) Did also assume 2 light weapons (short swords if you care for particulars)

I should also note, this is all xp 0. Everyone but the eidolon could pick up masterwork for their weapons, giving them another +1 to hit. Well, maybe not the rogue, needing to get 2 Masterworks, but at least one would be.

Charge and flank not easy? I suppose it could be difficult, but when I have played a summoner, I have usually spent my first turn dropping some reinforcements behind enemy lines. Mind it works better once I can use Summon Eidolon on the second turn.

[andreww]

Dafydd wrote:

Charge and flank not easy? I suppose it could be difficult, but when I have played a summoner, I have usually spent my first turn dropping some reinforcements behind enemy lines. Mind it works better once I can use Summon Eidolon on the second turn.

Summon Eidolon has a 1 round casting time so it doesn't arrive until the start of your third turn and there is a good chance of losing the spell if you get hit in the meantime.

The spell also says to treat it as if you had summoned your Eidolon normally which arguably means it is still incompatible with the summon SLA.

[Dafydd]

andreww wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

Charge and flank not easy? I suppose it could be difficult, but when I have played a summoner, I have usually spent my first turn dropping some reinforcements behind enemy lines. Mind it works better once I can use Summon Eidolon on the second turn.

Summon Eidolon has a 1 round casting time so it doesn't arrive until the start of your third turn and there is a good chance of losing the spell if you get hit in the meantime.

The spell also says to treat it as if you had summoned your Eidolon normally which arguably means it is still incompatible with the summon SLA.

Just in time to get a haste. Still, proper placement of summons and party means you will be semi protected. Minnions on archers to foil shots, party members charging in. With some luck(1d4+2 thanks to Superior Summons at 5th and 3 other party members), most foes will have their own dance partner or 2 and will not be able to come dance with you.

I am aware of the argument, and I can see where they are coming from, but I have always thought that to mean more along the lines of "do not apply Augment Summoning or similar feats." I honestly would not be upset with a ruling either way on this. Summon Eidolon, in my experience, is more for that moment of mid battle it being plastered and you need it back now.

[Liz Courts]

Removed a post. Making assumptions about other posters budgets and roleplaying skills doesn't lead to productive discussions.

[DrSabre]

For what it is worth this seems to be just one more nail in the coffin of creativity. With the cry of balance we eliminate originality and replace it with cookie cutter representations of what the powers that be want you to play. Sorry but if I wanted to play some computer mmo, I can do that at home for less money and frustration.

[FLite]

Yeah, I don;t understand why, for a game set in golarian, their shared world setting, they want your summoner playing outsiders native to golarian. We should be able to make up our own, origional outsider races.

While we are at it, why are we only allowed to play the cookie cutter races that the powers that be want us to play? I mean, elves? really? That is so boring. We should be allowed to build our own races. And classes for that matter.

[/sarcasm]

It is a shared world organized play setting. You don't get to invent your own races, your own classes, your own familiars or animal companions, your own weapons, your own magic items. You have to pick from what the authors have decided exists within that world. That is because there is no GM to look at what you made and say "no, I am sorry, that is just unbalanced, you have to change this."

If you want to have true unfettered creativity, you should be playing in the GURPS OP, where you can build whatever you want. (Oh wait, there is no GURPS OP, I wonder why...)