|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if the Player in question stocked up on a few Greater Evolution scrolls? Didn't say they were used all at one encounter. I was pointing out of the session of a hard module.. the Player ATE like 80% of the fights with a creature that seemed to have every situation set up.
Yeah..he had flight, winged, and no he didn't pounce when he had to fly over difficult terrain. I was trying to point out a well designed monster can take out every encounter.. between 2 scrolls of Greater Evo Surge (one provided by his buddy who was a melee masher as well)
Typically he'd fly/charge up and either grab or pounce/maul the bad guy furthest from the players..then proceed to kill anything else in his hellish reach.
And tell you what..next time I'll track every bit of the minutiae so I can show things in a factual manner so you don't have to be so condescending. I'm done. All I was trying to point out is that wihtout some form of GM 'veto' the old Summoner in the hands of an optimizer the player can totally destroy scenarios.
Those cost 1k gold each. You're talking a level 6 player blowing something like 10% of their WBL for a temporary advantage on two fights? After spending 16,000 gold to have Holy on their amulet? That doesn't sound very plausible.
And as far as one character doing 80% of the damage - I've seen Animal Companions that are just as bad. Hell, I've seen Barbarians do the same.
I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm just pointing out that you were making accusations without actually knowing what was going on, which does absolutely nothing to further the dialog about the issue, it just ticks people off and muddies the whole issue. There are legitimate complaints about the APG summoner, and there's no reason to throw a bunch of hyperbolic examples that blatantly violate rules into things to point that out.
|
I'm not a fan of the new summoner. In fact, I don't think I really understood on a gut reaction how some people felt about the APG summoner until I realized I felt that way about what think of as the new coke summoner.
That said, I feel like I need to at least look at converting. Considering that my favorite thing to do was to skirt designer intent by not making pounce monsters but making 12 int skill monkeys and wand wielding creepy children and such I suspect their is little here for me.
Am I wrong? Please, tell me I'm wrong.
I think you're wrong! From what I can gather, you're going for a skill-monkey children of the corn feel, yeah?
Devil sub-type to help give you some of those skill bonuses and a bit of that creepy feel, small for your stated trait. I think that the Improved Evolution feat is pretty much required for any unchained summoner (it's so much more valuable now!), so we'll assume you've taken them. Further, while you will not be able to make an 8th level skill monkey at level 3 (fewer evo points now), you'll still be able to do pretty well fairly rapidly. If you happen to go half-elf, even more points... but you pretty much get a racial skill bonus in 1 skill every level in addition to your normal skill points, which seems like a reasonable progression to me.
A level 5 character, half-elf and 1 improved evolution feat just to push it even farther per your post, would have 6 evo points, skilled in bluff, elemental resistance 10 vs. fire, cold, and acid, and +4 vs. poison saves. Those points could go into flight (not a frontliner, so that helps avoid getting killed), and 4 skilled evolutions for some CRAZY check scores (+15 before stat bonus assuming you put 4 skill points in each one and they were class skills) for a total of 5 skills like that (bluff comes with the sub-type)!
When you put evo points into INT boosts is up to you, but sooner is probably better. You'll do pretty well as far as that is concerned as you'll be drowning in points compared to most builds. Level 8 will bring you 2[feats]+2[favored class bonus]+6[base]=10 points. You also get skilled (diplomacy) at 8 along with immunity to poison, so 2 different free skilled evolutions. At that point you could add 3 to your INT (evo + stat boost) for an INT of 10 and 6 skill points per HD, fly, and still have 6 evolution points for more INT or a ton of Skilled evolutions.
Looking human: make one of those Skilled evolutions go into disguise with a hat of disguise (1800gp) and we're talking nearly a +30 to disguise. Don't forget you also have 3 eidolon feats at this level, so I'm sure there's some wacky stuff you could do with those as well.
Thoughts?
|
|
And just to throw out my level 8 Eidolon build to show that combat is not nerfed half as much as some folks like to complain...
Eidolon Stats (Daemon Sub-Type):
STR 26; DEX 13; CON 15; INT 7; WIS 10; CHA 11
HP: 6d10+6 (48)
AC: 22 (10[base]+12[nat]+1[dex]-1[size]) **+8 once I cast extended Mage Armor at the start of the day and Shield [start of a fight] on him**
Saves: Fort +7; Ref +3; Will +5 (+4 vs. enchantment spells & effects [will only], death effects, poison, disease)
Skills: 24; Feats: 3; Max Attacks: 4;
Resistances: 10/Acid; 10/Fire; 10/Cold; 10/Electricity
Eidolon Feats:
-Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
-Power Attack
-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Curved Eleven Blade)
Eidolon Skills: (* indicates a skill point)
-Acrobatics[CS]: +7 *
-Bluff: +
-Climb(CS): +21 **
-Fly: +5 *
-Swim(CS): +13 **
-Intimidate(CS): +9 ******
-Perception: +17 ******
-Sense Motive: +0
-Stealth: +11 *****
Evolutions: (9pts)
-2x Bite
-1x Improved Natural Armor
-1x Large
-1x Skilled (Perception)
-1x Climb (Because fun!)
Eidolon Attacks:
-Bite +14 (2d6+12; P/S/B)
-2 Claw +14 (1d6+8; S)
OR
-Large Adamantine Curved Elvan Blade +1 +15/+10 (2d8+13|18-20/x2)
-Bite +9 (2d6+6|x2; P/S/B)
Equipment:
-Belt of Giant's Strength +2
Now just imagine something like Slenderman in cloaks rapidly crawling up a cliff-face towards you with a mouth full of needle-like teeth and see if your shorts stay clean!
Now imagine that I actually went to max out my natural attacks and took pounce instead of some of the other evolutions I chose. A nasty kill machine is easy to make, and compared to what existed before, this is MUCH more in-line with other pet abilities. Pretty in-line with the hunter too, though I think the summoner has much better spells.
|
So, can we make this clear for somone who does not spend tons of time on these boards.
I have 2 summoners levels 3 and 6.
What changes do I need to make to these characters?
Do I need to adjust my Evolutions, are the any of the old ones no longer choosable as I level up?
Do I need to adjust my spell list to the one in the new book?
How does this all effect my current characters....
|
So, can we make this clear for somone who does not spend tons of time on these boards.
I have 2 summoners levels 3 and 6.
What changes do I need to make to these characters?
Do I need to adjust my Evolutions, are the any of the old ones no longer choosable as I level up?
Do I need to adjust my spell list to the one in the new book?
How does this all effect my current characters....
You don't need to make any changes, but you can if you want to.
You probably don't want to.
|
@divvox that is fairly close to my eidolon build
The main differences are that I went with an estoc, psychopomp, and outflank with my summoner.
In general, I feel like the unchained summoner is no longer viable on as a focused caster. They need to either be a pure buff-bot or melee support, much like the hunter. The summoner still has one of the best buffing spell lists in the game.
|
|
So, can we make this clear for somone who does not spend tons of time on these boards.
I have 2 summoners levels 3 and 6.
What changes do I need to make to these characters?
Do I need to adjust my Evolutions, are the any of the old ones no longer choosable as I level up?
Do I need to adjust my spell list to the one in the new book?
How does this all effect my current characters....
It's a pretty limited retraining, and assuming you're going to retrain (or must) here is a list of things I believe you'll need to do:
1. Switch out illegal spells for legal spells, nothing else.2. Switch out illegal archtypes for legal archtypes/base.
3. Choose a Sub-Type for your eidolon.
4. Switch out & reassign evolution points for illegal evolution options, take into account the evolutions/abilities you get for free.
5. Sell items that are now useless due to changes in the build and nothing else (probably nothing for a summoner, I can't think of a single item; this is primarily for rogues who had agile weapons and the like) for full cost. If a boon is applied to an item sold in this way, I believe you can put it on the replacement item.
6. Party.
Not 100% on that, but I think it's pretty close. Hopefully someone will call me out on something if I've buggered it up.
@divvox that is fairly close to my eidolon build
The main differences are that I went with an estoc, psychopomp, and outflank with my summoner.
In general, I feel like the unchained summoner is no longer viable on as a focused caster. They need to either be a pure buff-bot or melee support, much like the hunter. The summoner still has one of the best buffing spell lists in the game.
Nice! I think one definitely needs to consider Improved Evolution as a priority feat choice, but my summoner doesn't have the hutzpa to get up in opponent's faces. She is a halfling with +20 to sneak and 24 CHA, and he's there to debuff from the shadows and buff the party. I do have an idea for a frontline summoner I'd love to try someday though. They sound fun!
As far as spells, we get stinking cloud now! Woooo! I think we only had snowball before as an attack spell (granted, an amazing attack spell). But yeah, buff and battlefield control are the name of the spellcasting game.
On a side note, hunters make AMAZING melee fighters too, depending on how you do your build. Level 4 and me and my animal companion have about a +12 to hit.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not a fan of the new summoner. In fact, I don't think I really understood on a gut reaction how some people felt about the APG summoner until I realized I felt that way about what think of as the new coke summoner.
That said, I feel like I need to at least look at converting. Considering that my favorite thing to do was to skirt designer intent by not making pounce monsters but making 12 int skill monkeys and wand wielding creepy children and such I suspect their is little here for me.
Am I wrong? Please, tell me I'm wrong.
I think you're wrong! From what I can gather, you're going for a skill-monkey children of the corn feel, yeah?
Devil sub-type to ...goes into build
My dislike is a lot more fundamental. And yeah, I can talk about this build or that build but it comes down to wanting a list of cool and interesting things that logically we should be able to build but which are only disallowed because the editorial staff at Paizo has passive aggressive hatred of the class and so won't authorize cool stuff even in a nerf revision.
This is stuff like starting with a 13 intelligence at 1st level from an archetype and then taking combat expertise and perhaps then spending a couple ep for improved feint. It's having reasonably priced supernatural abilities. It's about a whole list of reasonable desires that I would want for PFS, that have nothing to do with the power level, which I get was over powered.
The point is, I want to experiment and I don't like a bunch chassis geared around being a cool munchkin monster. They are great ideas for archetypes but they are archetypes that should have shown up in Ultimate Magic like all those druid animal shaman variants.
I would have been fine with a cut in power. I just really hate the design philosophy behind this revision and what seems to me this was gutting followed by an animate dead spell. I t is, IMHO, the worst work paizo has done.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you hand the players a bucket o parts they are going to come up with the most combat effective human centipad possible.
Yes. Imagine if PFS allowed players to use the ARG race-building rules or ACG class-building rules, counting on them to exercise restraint and forcing GMs to deal with the consequences.
|
|
...but it comes down to wanting a list of cool and interesting things that logically we should be able to build but which are only disallowed because the editorial staff at Paizo has passive aggressive hatred of the class and so won't authorize cool stuff even in a nerf revision.
This is stuff like starting with a 13 intelligence at 1st level from an archetype and then taking combat expertise and perhaps then spending a couple ep for improved feint. It's having reasonably priced supernatural abilities. It's about a whole list of reasonable desires that I would want for PFS, that have nothing to do with the power level, which I get was over powered.
The point is, I want to experiment and I don't like a bunch chassis geared around being a cool munchkin monster. They are great ideas for archetypes but they are archetypes that should have shown up in Ultimate Magic like all those druid animal shaman variants.
I would have been fine with a cut in power. I just really hate the design philosophy behind this revision and what seems to me this was gutting followed by an animate dead spell. It is, IMHO, the worst work paizo has done.
I can see why you're disappointed by what came out of it then, but I have to say I think your wish is an unrealistic one when considering the context. Pathfinder is a game where you have to balance out everything. Not only power level but balance between classes, otherwise you get everyone playing 2-3 out of 30 of them. And as BNW stated in a wonderfully short sentence above... such an open setup will screw with that math. And unfortunately for those such as yourself who might be able to reign in their powerbuilding and just go for wacky fun/interesting builds, this has to exist in the real world, and in the real world we have min-max builders.
From a game design perspective of course this class gets the stink-eye. It is, by its nature, damn near impossible to quantify, but it works to fill that desire to create your own unique take on an aspect of your character, beyond what you can usually do. Access to crazy abilities and attacks... that sort of thing. And as is evident from the APG version, it is easily broken.
I COMPLETELY agree that there needs to be more options, but because of the modular nature of the Eidolon, every single additional evolution increases the difficulty to prevent unbalancing the class by an order of magnitude. If it was unbalanced, it would take away fun from people who love to play other classes. IMHO it's not a matter of passive-agressiveness, but rather a matter of fustration with a great class concept and the mechanical needs of nurturing a complex gaming system. If we went hog-wild with options, we'd get D&D 3.5 (or worse, 3.0).
I suspect they 'unchained' the class in this way as sort of a hard reset. They realized "Oh sh*t, we missed some details and a lot of this stuff is throwing off the balance and impacting other people's fun in playing with the class to SUCH a degree that we have to do something." However, they want to keep the great concept of the summoner in the game because so many people like it. So instead of banning it, they took a risk to reign it in a bit.
So, more options are great, but they have to be CAREFULLY considered and thought out. Purely fluff options are easy, but adding things like evolutions get massively difficult because of the hundreds of ways it could combo with other evolutions IN ADDITION to everything else. I suspect the brawler got a lot of heavy sighs during development too for the flexibility it gets, but I'd bet not half as much as the summoner because of how much wider the option pool is.
This is a completely understandable reaction to the situation, and necessary. I fully understand your dislike with the situation, and why you wanted those options. Because of aformentioned balancing, I don't think they're going to risk too much. But as many devs have said earlier, try out wacky stuff in home games. Your GM can adjust the situation to help balance things out. They can't do that for PFS.
|
|
Pretty sure this feat is not legal in PFS... unless something in the unchained book opens it up for eidolons? (which was not true up until now)And just to throw out my level 8 Eidolon build to show that combat is not nerfed half as much as some folks like to complain...
Eidolon Feats:
-Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
You may be right. I thought it was available to animal companions and pets of the like, but now I can't find where I saw that and I don't see the seal in Archives of Nethys.
----Yuuuuup. Whelp, I'll have to figure out something else to put that feat towards...
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I'm a bit behind you, being only level 2, but here is mine:
The Todal (Yeah, I am ripping off Thurber, what can I say.)
the todal is a blob of glup. It's made of lip and smells of old unopened rooms. It makes a sound like rabbits screaming. It feels like it has been dead a dozen days, but moves about like monkeys and like shadows. The Todal cannot be killed.
Eidolon Stats (Protean Sub-Type):
STR 13; DEX 17; CON 13; INT 7; WIS 10; CHA 11
HP: 2d10+2 (13 or 18? confused ?)
AC: 17 (10[base]+4[nat]+3[dex]) **+4 with mage armor**
Saves: Fort +1; Ref +6; Will +0
Skills: 8; Feats: 1; Max Attacks: 3;
Resistances: 5/Acid
Eidolon Feats:
-Weapon Finesse
Eidolon Skills: (* indicates a skill point)
(still thinking about this)
Evolutions: (2pts + 1 from feat)
-1x Constrict
Eidolon Attacks:
-Bite +5 (1d6+1; P/S/B) +grab +5 CMB +constrict (1d6+1)
-Tail Slap +0 (1d6; P/S/B) +grab +5 CMB +constrict (1d6)
Equipment:
(as soon as I can afford it, Agile AoMF and dexterity belt.)
At 3rd level, I will pick up final embrace, followed by piranna strike, followed by the rest of the final embrace chain. Should make for a fun creature when it works. Right now what I'm mostly struggling with is how to get a dex based grappler past DR.
At 8th, he gets the constrict for free, so I can sell it back and get the points back, but I need it early for final embrace.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Well, even on the APG summoner, you only get reach on one attack, not one attack type. So he can only have reach on a claw, not on claws.
If you took the feat extra evolution, you could fit in everything but the Improved strength. If you didn't you would have to drop the reach as well. You simply are not going to be cramming everything you got from APG into an unchained.
If he went neutral, he could have a bear like Agathion and get lay on hands at 8th.
Or he could take an Azata, drop the claws and or bite, and go more weapon focused (free martial weapons proficiency)
But frankly, I think Psychopomp probably fits better.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
From a game design perspective of course this class gets the stink-eye. It is, by its nature, damn near impossible to quantify, but it works to fill that desire to create your own unique take on an aspect of your character, beyond what you can usually do. Access to crazy abilities and attacks... that sort of thing. And as is evident from the APG version, it is easily broken.
I think part of the problem with the APG summoner was limited number of builds and that the system seemed to push you toward being a melee combat monster.
More archetypes/options could have led instead having pseudo spell casters and archers and some different takes on the skill monkey.Basically the existence of these options would have meant fewer DPR monsters, would have meant less outcry for an all out revision, would have meant less stinky eye.
As for a making it more balanced, we could have done something like the fighter. Designated all damage related evolutions as "combat evolutions" and limited the points spent on those.
IMHO it's not a matter of passive-agressiveness, but rather a matter of fustration with a great class concept and the mechanical needs of nurturing a complex gaming system. If we went hog-wild with options, we'd get D&D 3.5 (or worse, 3.0).
Here, I'm much more cynical, based off of people at Paizo publically sounding off their disdain for the Summoner, the lack of rarity of npc summoners, the fact that the Iconic summoner story was not told for several years till after the other APG Iconics story was told, the fact that after Ultimate Magic very little came out to support or reform the class, all of which could have been done.
I basically believe that some within Paizo were trying to kill the class and the problems that existed for FOUR YEARS could have been dealt with, but they chose not to.
I suspect they 'unchained' the class in this way as sort of a hard reset. They realized "Oh sh*t, we missed some details and a lot of this stuff is throwing off the balance and impacting other people's fun in playing with the class to SUCH a degree that we have to do something." However, they want to keep the great concept of the summoner in the game because so many people like it. So instead of banning it, they took a risk to reign it in a bit.
I've heard the accusations, and most of them seemed a bit overblown. I've played two summoners. I've found the rules fairly easy to understand. I've had a couple sessions where I've been the most powerful character on the board, but nothing compared to the horror mythology that is out there.
I've GMed summoner eidolon combos including one from a player I consider a master of screwing over the system. Characters were powerful, but they didn't in and of themselves dominate the game.So, more options are great, but they have to be CAREFULLY considered and thought out. Purely fluff options are easy, but adding things like evolutions get massively difficult because of the hundreds of ways it could combo with other evolutions IN ADDITION to everything else.
They've had four years to come up with new options, to think them out. In general, they have refused. Instead, with the new summoner, they've made it harder to do anything more innovative.
What I've proposed are simple, not very difficult options. I have a hard time seeing how a feat evolution or eidolons with different attribute arrays (and less powerful physical stats) would break the system.In fact, I see them as a step back power wise.
This is a completely understandable reaction to the situation, and necessary. I fully understand your dislike with the situation, and why you wanted those options. Because of aformentioned balancing, I don't think they're going to risk too much. But as many devs have said earlier, try out wacky stuff in home games. Your GM can adjust the situation to help balance things out. They can't do that for PFS.
My work involves a lot of travel which makes home games difficult.
And I at this point don't believe Paizo will ever come out with those options. Because of Paizo's mishandling/ignoring my favorite class for years, I've basically lost some degree of faith/respect for the company. I hope I'm eventually proven wrong. But I'm very much at this point considering dropping Pathfinder.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kerney, the problem while the Summoner may have been your favorite class, and one of mine, it was the most hated class in the campaign from players, GMs, and campaign leadership alike. And there were a lot of summoner players who did their best to make sure the class deserved that hate.most hated class? nah - that's the Gunslinger.
I'm sort of half expecting another book like Unchained next year. One that addresses four different classes....
Cleric (power boost), Paladin (easier to run), Alchemist (restricting power), Gunslinger (re-write).But that's just a prediction.
NEW for 2017!
PATHFINDER UNCHAINED 2!
We buffed the Cleric!
Screwed the Alchemist!
Made Paladins easier!
Revised the Gunslinger!
And fixed the Summoner....Again!
|
|
Kerney, the problem while the Summoner may have been your favorite class, and one of mine, it was the most hated class in the campaign from players, GMs, and campaign leadership alike. And there were a lot of summoner players who did their best to make sure the class deserved that hate.most hated class? nah - that's the Gunslinger.
I'm sort of half expecting another book like Unchained next year. One that addresses four different classes....
Cleric (power boost), Paladin (easier to run), Alchemist (restricting power), Gunslinger (re-write).But that's just a prediction.
Hold I am playing Alchemist right now. I think without Brew Potion it seems extremely lowered powered in PFS compare to home version. So why is the Alchemist so overpowered. He less damage than the fighter with his bombs, and if the bombs miss it could end up hurting the party. He doesn't have the flexibility of a spell caster, yet enemies attack him like he is one. His AC is as light as a rogue, yet unlike the rogue he can't use his primarly stat to hit, therefore making getting up close a risk.
I think that the Alchemist is quite balanced when you consider that his point is to be sort of jack of most trades with bombs. His major role in the party I am with is healing, minor buffing with alchemy items, and group weakening at the start of the fight.
Clearly we have different views on the class. I currently have 5 in PFS.
12th level Chirurgeon7th level Crypt Braker
6tn lvl Crypt Braker/Chirurgeon/ 1st level Wizard (Diviner)
5th lvl Mind Chemist
1st (two games) TrapBraker
and I have a 6th level Investigator (sort of an Alchemist without bombs).
They can tend to overshadow the other players in the game and I have to hold them back some during play.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And fixed the Summoner....Again!
Two choices for bases: Nerf Demons, and Marshmallow Golems
*2 months later, Golarion is besieged by marshmallow golems doing 24d12 damage per round, DC 59 save to not get entangled by goo*
Dr Ray Stantz: No! It CAN'T be!
Dr. Peter Venkman: What is it?
Dr Ray Stantz: It CAN'T be!
Dr. Peter Venkman: What did you DO, Ray?
Winston Zeddemore: Oh, s@#&!
Dr Ray Stantz: [after Ray thinks of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man and it appears, stomping through New York City] I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I loved from my childhood. Something that could never, ever possibly destroy us. Mr. Stay Puft.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Nice thinking, Ray.
|
|
I think that the Alchemist is quite balanced when you consider that his point is to be sort of jack of most trades with bombs. His major role in the party I am with is healing, minor buffing with alchemy items, and group weakening at the start of the fight.
I love the alchemist class, but I have to admit as a GM, there is at least one build with the class that I cannot stand.
A nicely built Alchemist will be able to contribute to the game in a wide range of situations and will do one thing quite well
An abomination of the system (played by someone without restraint) does only one thing, and shuts down entire encounters with it whenever they can.
|
I think that the Alchemist is quite balanced when you consider that his point is to be sort of jack of most trades with bombs. His major role in the party I am with is healing, minor buffing with alchemy items, and group weakening at the start of the fight.
I love the alchemist class, but I have to admit as a GM, there is at least one build with the class that I cannot stand.
A nicely built Alchemist will be able to contribute to the game in a wide range of situations and will do one thing quite well
An abomination of the system (played by someone without restraint) does only one thing, and shuts down entire encounters with it whenever they can.
Having seen an 11th level alchemist with 6 touch attacks each doing 6d6+18 a few times, I would say that alchemist could use a FAQ change more than anything. The class itself is fine, the FAQ on two weapon and rapid stacking is what is broken.
Back to the summoner, I really like the new version better. Pounce should have never ever been a 1 point evolution. The pounce beast was annoying and overly powerful at lower levels. Does the new summoner need something at high levels? Maybe.
|
|
An abomination of the system (played by someone without restraint) does only one thing, and shuts down entire encounters with it whenever they can.Oddly enough this is something wizards, witches, clerics, shamans, druids, sorcerers and oracles are all perfectly capable of doing and without having to resort to any sort of bizarre combinations or go digging through masses of material for. Most of what they need is sitting right there in the CRB spell chapter.
I don't recall anyone ever implying that they couldn't
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But hey now... How did we get so off topic? This thread is supposed to be about how much everyone hated* the old Summoner!
*except for the people who loved them
On the NEXT episode of Pathfinder Society! Eidilons, and the Summoners who love them. Now, it's positively Angelic.
In other news, there has been an marked increase in banditry, especially the BMX variety.
|
|
I enjoyed the old summoner to a degree, but can admit it was a touch overpowered and could be obnoxious to other players... much like wizards, sorcs, alchemists, magus.... or any other class one really wants to break.
I despise the new summoner. This class has little to do with the original summoner, and bluntly I find the fluff revolting. The funny thing is this would have been a good companion class for the pld summoner if Paizo had mad it a devine caster. I mean you already tied the eidolon to what amounts to religous figures. Call it a Channeler or something and alter its spell list to be devine caster.
The new summoner doesn't have the I am the mystical master of the universe feel. It gets spells too late to be useful now, and just feels ininspired. In other words, half measures suck.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
I am confused by this response
While many who dabble in the arcane become adept at beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes, none are more skilled at it than the summoner. This practitioner of the arcane arts forms a close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolon, who gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning.
summoners have *always* been tied to an outsider (what you call a religeous figure) that has always been the fluff.
The whole "summoners are mystic masters of the universe who can reshape it to their whim and call forth new forms of life" is a testament to how overpowered the class was that it's fluff was completely wiped out by it's overwhelming power.
Actually, summoners are freer now, in that they can now call outsiders from planes other than their own alignment (previously they could only summon outsider eidolons from a plane that matched their alignment.) Now, that didn't matter, because a lawful good summoner could effectively summon an Angel, and reshape it into the physical shape and abilities of a demon.
If that is not overpowered, then I don't know what is. That is literally godlike power.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Except that you could twist the energy into forms completely alien to the plane you pulled it from.
Except that wouldn't a succubus who reformed cease to be a succubus (as in a chaotic evil demon) and be released to the (lets assume chaotic good) plane and reformed as an appropriate entity there? I don't have the AP Nethy's herald is from, but I can't find anything about her being a reformed succubus, and since what I can find on her states that Nethys created her,* I stand by my assertion that you are talking about godlike power, since your example is the god of magic.
*I was looking at his herald, not his servant.
You could still pull your ancestor. It may even be easier, in that if your ancestor was lawful good and you were more moderate, say nuetral good, you can still pull him. (and he will ride you constantly about letting the family standards slip.) Or vice versa. ("Wait, kid, your family told you I charged that hill for the honor of the clan? I was brave not suicidal. If I had know those archers were there, I would have been charging the other direction!")
And you could freely drop the parts of the plane that didn't suit you in the old system. Sure my outsider is a fire elemental, thats why he is throwing all that fire around. But why spend points on making him immune to fire, when I can just cast endure elements on him and get the same effect in most cases? Those are points I can spend on pounce. Optimiztion at the expense of flavor.