Unchained Summoner


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Shadow Lodge 4/5

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The Summoner issue for me is the pfs reskinning rules. I could remake my summoner into the unchained Summoner and get something similar enough rules wise. But my gnomish inventor's helicopter would turn into a winged snakeman. I would no longer be allowed by pfs rules to say it looks like a mechanical flying machine. The rules change is all well and good, but the cosmetic changes force players to change the character of their characters. It's pretty ironic that pfs allows no reskinning, and here's a release asking players to reskin.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Ironically my weapon wielding 'sister' brought back from the grave is functional but just doesn't fit for me now. If I want good, biped and claws I have to bounce my alignment a bit. Can't be LG and have a human like eidolon with claw nails without sacrifing something else in her build

Sovereign Court 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
wakedown wrote:

I'm wondering how much of this occurs now:

Player #6 sits down after the muster.

GM: "Ok, what's everyone playing?"

Various players respond.

Player #6: "I'm playing my level 3 Summoner, Bob. He's all I have available to play in the 1-2 subtier of today's scenario."

Player #5 leans over.

Player #5: "Ah cool, I've been waiting to play with an Unchained Summoner... those original ones pissed me off and made me feel like my barbarian was a glorified animal companion... I'm glad those days are over."

Player #6 starts blankly at Player #5 for a moment.

Player #6: "I'm, uh, still playing the APG Summoner. If I converted, I'd have lost my ability to pounce and have 30ft reach with my fauchard."

All players at the table stare at Player #6, creating an air of discomfort at the table.

GM: "Okay, everyone, let's stay focused here. Drendle Dreng is explaining that he needs another bottle of wine..."

To be fair, I'm not siding with Player #5 or Player #6, but I think the above is exemplary of something that is certainly going to happen at upcoming gamedays, so I figure it'd be an interesting topic for the forumites.

id like to point out this knee-jerk reaction is still there as hunters, druids, rangers, cavaliers all get animal companions that are just as nasty and make playing at tables unenjoyable. hell try playing with min maxed archers so thier is no point in anyone else bein at the table cause a person does 30-50 damage with 1 arrow and can shoot 3-4 times. how bout a barbarian that does 80 damage a hit.

there will always be min maxed characters, summoner was no worse than any of the others.

Sovereign Court 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

as for the new summoner itself i am ok with the eidolon changes its the spell changes that piss me off, why play a summoner at all now, no combat spells and no early access to buff or travel spells like they had before. society is really making the game unejoyable. mix this bs with the paizocon bs, the fact that paizo wants to release a 100 new books but never errata and fix the ones that are out. hell at this rate i may as well go back to playing wizards of the coast stuff. thought paizo wanted to fix issues not remake the old problems.

The Exchange 5/5

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

Mirrors calls up Smoke with a procedure that involves lighting up and "smoking" a cigar -

Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)
Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent, 5) Climb, 6-7) Flight (just gave her this one, and haven't used it yet, so not sure what her wings look like. Butterfly wings maybe? or more like a succubus?).

So - how do I convert this? I've got a "Rich Kid" Summoner with a "Sex Kitten" Eidolon who many people will think is just imaginary... 'cause they never see it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wakedown wrote:

I'm wondering how much of this occurs now:

Player #6 sits down after the muster.

GM: "Ok, what's everyone playing?"

Various players respond.

Player #6: "I'm playing my level 3 Summoner, Bob. He's all I have available to play in the 1-2 subtier of today's scenario."

Player #5 leans over.

Player #5: "Ah cool, I've been waiting to play with an Unchained Summoner... those original ones pissed me off and made me feel like my barbarian was a glorified animal companion... I'm glad those days are over."

Player #6 starts blankly at Player #5 for a moment.

Player #6: "I'm, uh, still playing the APG Summoner. If I converted, I'd have lost my ability to pounce and have 30ft reach with my fauchard."

All players at the table stare at Player #6, creating an air of discomfort at the table.

GM: "Okay, everyone, let's stay focused here. Drendle Dreng is explaining that he needs another bottle of wine..."

To be fair, I'm not siding with Player #5 or Player #6, but I think the above is exemplary of something that is certainly going to happen at upcoming gamedays, so I figure it'd be an interesting topic for the forumites.

I strongly suspect that Player 6 wasn't even correct using the old rules at level 1 and 2. I played an APG summoner and I never cheesed it to that level of a 30 foot reach. Player 6 is a textbook example of why the changes needed to be made for PFS.


Well most classes have some form of cheese factor.

1st level Human Witch for instance with both feats dedicated to Extra Hex (Evil Eye, Cackle) and they have as their standard 1st level hex (Slumber). Just top that off with say a Wand of Hex Vulnerability which can be obtained after one adventure for just 2PP.

It isn't really a fault of the player if they gravitate to what works on an optimized level. They are simply using the tools they are given to the best effect. People have different levels of tolerance for cheese builds. What one abhors, another accepts. Humans always have this knee-jerk reaction to supposed cheese.

Same with cleric.
Same with druid.
Same with barbarian.
Same with cavalier.
Same with summoner.
Same with etc.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Witch Doctor wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

^
Is another example of the knee-jerk reacion to cheese.

Except that it's yet another example of an eidolon built wrong.

Evolutions Heading under Eidolon wrote:


Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.

Reach does not mention that it is allowed to be grabbed multiple times.


James McTeague wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

^
Is another example of the knee-jerk reacion to cheese.

Except that it's yet another example of an eidolon built wrong.

Evolutions Heading under Eidolon wrote:


Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.
Reach does not mention that it is allowed to be grabbed multiple times.

Thank you. I misread the evolution.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sarvei taeno wrote:
a number of complaints

This is probably the wrong thread and forum for this type of rant.

Not saying it isn't warranted, but there are probably better places to vent your frustrations.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Witch Doctor wrote:

Well most classes have some form of cheese factor.

1st level Human Witch for instance with both feats dedicated to Extra Hex (Evil Eye, Cackle) and they have as their standard 1st level hex (Slumber). Just top that off with say a Wand of Hex Vulnerability which can be obtained after one adventure for just 2PP.

It isn't really a fault of the player if they gravitate to what works on an optimized level. They are simply using the tools they are given to the best effect. People have different levels of tolerance for cheese builds. What one abhors, another accepts. Humans always have this knee-jerk reaction to supposed cheese.

Same with cleric.
Same with druid.
Same with barbarian.
Same with cavalier.
Same with summoner.
Same with etc.

Please let me know what other class could have a fighting companion with 30 foot reach at 1st-2nd level. It's not all the same.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Any 1st level character can get a 25' reach.

Reach weapon + potion of Enlarge Person + wand or scroll of Long Arm.

Heck a 1st level Alchemist can do all that with no help, wielding a Longspear.

The Exchange 5/5

LazarX wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:

Well most classes have some form of cheese factor.

1st level Human Witch for instance with both feats dedicated to Extra Hex (Evil Eye, Cackle) and they have as their standard 1st level hex (Slumber). Just top that off with say a Wand of Hex Vulnerability which can be obtained after one adventure for just 2PP.

It isn't really a fault of the player if they gravitate to what works on an optimized level. They are simply using the tools they are given to the best effect. People have different levels of tolerance for cheese builds. What one abhors, another accepts. Humans always have this knee-jerk reaction to supposed cheese.

Same with cleric.
Same with druid.
Same with barbarian.
Same with cavalier.
Same with summoner.
Same with etc.

Please let me know what other class could have a fighting companion with 30 foot reach at 1st-2nd level. It's not all the same.

what class can? Are you saying Summoner CAN? How?

(actually Archer. Range on a Comp.Longbow is 110', so it can actually reach 1100 feet...)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Please let me know what other class could have a fighting companion with 30 foot reach at 1st-2nd level. It's not all the same.
Are you saying Summoner CAN? How?

I think he's confusing the Eidolon's ability to add reach to its attacks as combining with manufactured weapon attacks, which is not how the evolution works.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Witch Doctor wrote:

Well most classes have some form of cheese factor.

1st level Human Witch for instance with both feats dedicated to Extra Hex (Evil Eye, Cackle) and they have as their standard 1st level hex (Slumber). Just top that off with say a Wand of Hex Vulnerability which can be obtained after one adventure for just 2PP.

It isn't really a fault of the player if they gravitate to what works on an optimized level. They are simply using the tools they are given to the best effect. People have different levels of tolerance for cheese builds. What one abhors, another accepts. Humans always have this knee-jerk reaction to supposed cheese.

Same with cleric.
Same with druid.
Same with barbarian.
Same with cavalier.
Same with summoner.
Same with etc.

Please let me know what other class could have a fighting companion with 30 foot reach at 1st-2nd level. It's not all the same.

what class can? Are you saying Summoner CAN? How?

(actually Archer. Range on a Comp.Longbow is 110', so it can actually reach 1100 feet...)

Player 6 in the OP's example apparantly managed if the poster wasn't writing for hyperbole. I don't know how yet.

Grand Lodge 4/5

LazarX wrote:
Player 6 in the OP's example apparantly managed if the poster wasn't writing for hyperbole. I don't know how yet.

It's hyperbole, but not intentional. He misread the Reach evolution and thought you could take it more than once.

Silver Crusade

To switch gears a bit, my concern with the unchained summoner is the lack of restriction ot evil alignments for eidolons. I'm worried we will see people using eidolons as a way to sneak an evil "character" into PFS. I've seen hunters that basically play as an animal companion with a pet human, so what is to prevent a player from playing as Orcus and his pet human?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

I can offer suggestions when I get back to my books, but I need to know what your alignment is.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

Mirrors calls up Smoke with a procedure that involves lighting up and "smoking" a cigar -

Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)
Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent, 5) Climb, 6-7) Flight (just gave her this one, and haven't used it yet, so not sure what her wings look like. Butterfly wings maybe? or more like a succubus?).

So - how do I convert this? I've got a "Rich Kid" Summoner with a "Sex Kitten" Eidolon who many people will think is just imaginary... 'cause they never see it.

You might have a clashing alignment, but and air elemental eidolon should work for that concept.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Hrothdane wrote:
To switch gears a bit, my concern with the unchained summoner is the lack of restriction ot evil alignments for eidolons. I'm worried we will see people using eidolons as a way to sneak an evil "character" into PFS. I've seen hunters that basically play as an animal companion with a pet human, so what is to prevent a player from playing as Orcus and his pet human?

Well given that the character calls and banishes the summon at will, I am inclined to treat it as the summoned is responsible for its actions. (since they could stop them any time.)

Between that and invoking "don't be a jerk" I don't foresee a problem.

Grand Lodge

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The problem the summoner has always had is...

A) A story someone at the table heard from their friend, who heard it from a 3rd friend, who heard it from his brother, who got it from his sister in law, who heard it from her hair dresser, whose son played with a guy, who's second cousin twice removed read online of a build that allowed the Eidolon to outdo every other person at the table.

B) People not reading the rules and thinking that the build they heard about is actually possible.

Unchained has fixed exactly 0 of these problems. In fact, it may have made the second problem worse. There are now 2 sets of rules to learn, making it harder for GMs to audit and fix the issue.

Unchained even made them less group friendly by taking their big team buff, Haste, and removing it's availability to 7th level. They got it at 4th, Wizard got it at 5th. Was the delay really needed?

Was summoner breakable? Yes, like most classes. The "do not be a jerk" rule is a rule for a reason.

Scarab Sages

Dafydd wrote:

The problem the summoner has always had is...

A) A story someone at the table heard from their friend, who heard it from a 3rd friend, who heard it from his brother, who got it from his sister in law, who heard it from her hair dresser, whose son played with a guy, who's second cousin twice removed read online of a build that allowed the Eidolon to outdo every other person at the table.

The last time I player with a summoner was when I was playing up with a level 5 in a 5-9. The summoner was 6th level and was handing out haste to the party like candy while the eidolon did 80% of the damage of the entire party thanks to evolution surge making a giant sized flying pouncing beast that put the druid, the druid's velociraptor AC, my monk, and the archer bard to shame.

Dark Archive

I think another big problem with all the Summoner pounce hate was players and GMs being ignorant of how you cannot charge through differcult terrain, corners, or even allies. This makes charging at levels 1-4 very hard. By level five, other PCs are doing so much damage themselves that pounce becomes less gravy when eidolons can buy flight at level 5. But people still want to complain because too many people are too immature to ever be happy unless they are the best at something themselves. Heaven forbid an Eidolon can pounce and not many others can. It is not like all those other classes never have class abilities of their own that Eidolon cannot do.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:
Dafydd wrote:

The problem the summoner has always had is...

A) A story someone at the table heard from their friend, who heard it from a 3rd friend, who heard it from his brother, who got it from his sister in law, who heard it from her hair dresser, whose son played with a guy, who's second cousin twice removed read online of a build that allowed the Eidolon to outdo every other person at the table.

The last time I player with a summoner was when I was playing up with a level 5 in a 5-9. The summoner was 6th level and was handing out haste to the party like candy while the eidolon did 80% of the damage of the entire party thanks to evolution surge making a giant sized flying pouncing beast that put the druid, the druid's velociraptor AC, my monk, and the archer bard to shame.

So the Summoner used a big team buff on the party.... What a jerk.

He used Evolution surge to buff his pet? Cool, that is a 3rd level spell he did not have access to at 6th level. (Point B proven again, assuming he was using mid instead of Lesser)

He was using lesser? To do what? Could not enlarge him with lesser. Flight? Was the majority of the foes flying? If so, the eidolon doing 80% of the damage means, either, the party lacked ranged support (makes sense for Druid and velociraptor and monk) or rolled terribly (hurts everyone, but is not the fault of the summoner)

Giant? How big? Large? So the summoner used Enlarge Person on his medium sized beast. Huge? So he spent half his evo pool on being Large, taking on all those issues of being large in other, indoor scenes and still cast Enlarge Person.

At best, the summoner would have been looking at 6 Enlarge Persons and 4 Hastes/Lesser Evolution Surges. (Assuming a 20 CHA)

Thank you for another blown out of proportion story though.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Dafydd wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dafydd wrote:

The problem the summoner has always had is...

A) A story someone at the table heard from their friend, who heard it from a 3rd friend, who heard it from his brother, who got it from his sister in law, who heard it from her hair dresser, whose son played with a guy, who's second cousin twice removed read online of a build that allowed the Eidolon to outdo every other person at the table.

The last time I player with a summoner was when I was playing up with a level 5 in a 5-9. The summoner was 6th level and was handing out haste to the party like candy while the eidolon did 80% of the damage of the entire party thanks to evolution surge making a giant sized flying pouncing beast that put the druid, the druid's velociraptor AC, my monk, and the archer bard to shame.

So the Summoner used a big team buff on the party.... What a jerk.

He used Evolution surge to buff his pet? Cool, that is a 3rd level spell he did not have access to at 6th level. (Point B proven again, assuming he was using mid instead of Lesser)

He was using lesser? To do what? Could not enlarge him with lesser. Flight? Was the majority of the foes flying? If so, the eidolon doing 80% of the damage means, either, the party lacked ranged support (makes sense for Druid and velociraptor and monk) or rolled terribly (hurts everyone, but is not the fault of the summoner)

Giant? How big? Large? So the summoner used Enlarge Person on his medium sized beast. Huge? So he spent half his evo pool on being Large, taking on all those issues of being large in other, indoor scenes and still cast Enlarge Person.

At best, the summoner would have been looking at 6 Enlarge Persons and 4 Hastes/Lesser Evolution Surges. (Assuming a 20 CHA)

Thank you for another blown out of proportion story though.

How about when having a nasty pounce monster who literally killed like 80% of every encounter with the claw/claw/claw/claw/bite with acid/holy damage. Difficult Terrain? He flies.. Enlarge/Evolution surge moves him from large to 'oh my gawd'.

DOn't assume that you know the entirity of the encounter.. and please don't be snarky to others. You are free to disagree but other peoples opinions about their experiences are their own. Having one guy totally dominate the scenario might be nastier for them than you.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.

Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)
Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent, 5) Climb, 6-7) Flight (just gave her this one, and haven't used it yet, so not sure what her wings look like. Butterfly wings maybe? or more like a succubus?).

So - how do I convert this? I've got a "Rich Kid" Summoner with a "Sex Kitten" Eidolon who many people will think is just imaginary... 'cause they never see it.

You shouldn't have *any* trouble converting this -- in fact, you're liable to end up with more stuff.

My first thought is that you go with a Small Biped Fire Elemental. (Or air -- but fire seems more thematic.) You have enough evolution points to get the exact same evolutions and one additional feat. The only thing is that at level 8 you get flight for free, so you'll have to find something else to spend those points on. :) Elementals are Neutral, so your alignment would have to be within one step of that.

EDIT: Whoops, Fire elementals *don't* get flight for free at 8, that's only air elementals. But since you've already paid for it -- that's not a problem for you.

You could also go with an Angel (any good) or Azata (CG), but they have one fewer evolution point, so you'd have to get something other than Flight. Although, again, they both get Flight for free at level 8, so you aren't missing that much.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

Mirrors calls up Smoke with a procedure that involves lighting up and "smoking" a cigar -

Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)
Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent, 5) Climb, 6-7) Flight (just gave her this one, and haven't used it yet, so not sure what her wings look like. Butterfly wings maybe? or more like a succubus?).

So - how do I convert this? I've got a "Rich Kid" Summoner with a "Sex Kitten" Eidolon who many people will think is just imaginary... 'cause they never see it.

Remember, that any summoner that was level 2 and played at least once before April 27, is grandfathered in as the APG summoner. This means that those that had their builds before don't have to change. You get the choice to rebuild into the unchained summoner if you want, but it is not required.

The Exchange 5/5

FLite wrote:
Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

I can offer suggestions when I get back to my books, but I need to know what your alignment is.

currently N/N, but I'm flexible

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Roasa Annarey Hellena de Noire wrote:

How about when having a nasty pounce monster who literally killed like 80% of every encounter with the claw/claw/claw/claw/bite with acid/holy damage. Difficult Terrain? He flies.. Enlarge/Evolution surge moves him from large to 'oh my gawd'.

DOn't assume that you know the entirity of the encounter.. and please don't be snarky to others. You are free to disagree but other peoples opinions about their experiences are their own. Having one guy totally dominate the scenario might be nastier for them than you.

You are correct, I do not know all the details of the encounter. However, the recounting of the event had major holes like most "Terrible Summoner ruined my game" stories.

5 attacks, yep that is accurate. Pounce too, assuming quad or serpent shape. That said, the attack is doing, assuming all 5 hit at huge size*, 5d8+2d6+53 (large drops down too 5d6+1d8+22), minus damage reduction. Acid and Holy? Well, you can get Acid with a lesser evolution surge yes, but Holy? Can you please explain how you get Holy beyond a 16000 gp item?

Yes, level 6, flight should be common by now. Wizard has been flying for a full level. Potions of flight are 2pp or 750g. If the issue is that the summoner does not need to spend money on it, well neither does the wizard, or sorcerer or witch, or clerics of 3 different domains. Alchemist has had wings available for a level. Magus, alchemist and summoner all get the spell themselves at 7th.

*Being huge? Well, as I said in the last post, he did not have Evolution Surge for the 4 point evolution. This means, the player has the issue of trying to slip a large sized creature through doors made for medium creatures and spent 4 of his 10 evolution points for it or the size is only Large, no worse then the Enlarged Fighter or Barbarian.

Finally, if you read snark into my post, I am sorry. I meant no snark, just pointing out the flaws in another "Terrible Summoner ruined my game" story. Flaws that actually prove the point I made in the post prior.

The Exchange 5/5

noswald wrote:
Smoke & Mirrors wrote:

not sure how I can keep the flavor of Smoke and re-skin into a Unchained Summon.

So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

Background. Mirrors is an Azata Blooded Aasimar, a well-to-do rich kid who in his adolescence slipped off with some of his fathers cigars ("he'll never notice them missing) to try out smoking. Mostly with the expected results (got sick). But he found that when he tried to blow smoke rings (something he had seen his father do) he kept getting humaniod shapes.... several weeks and a number of cigars later and he found he could create "almost real" shapes. Being a young male with a normal imagination, his "imagined shape" began to take on the shape often imagined by young adolescent males... you get the idea. Now add in a touch of Anime - and perhaps a splash of succubus (but not evil). And you have Smoke.

Table Tent describes him like ths: Summoner/"Party Face" - Azata Blooded Aasimar, Silver Mirrored Eyes, white hair, Golden Halo, Dressed in brightly colored silks and leather lamellar armor - he often has "Smoke" hiding near by.

Mirrors calls up Smoke with a procedure that involves lighting up and "smoking" a cigar -

Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)
Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent, 5) Climb, 6-7) Flight (just gave her this one, and haven't used it yet, so not sure what her wings look like. Butterfly wings maybe? or more like a succubus?).

So - how do I convert this? I've got a "Rich Kid" Summoner with a "Sex Kitten" Eidolon who many people will think is just

...

the re-build is not "required", but there will be enough players/judges that roll their eyes at the start of the game when I pop out my table tent ..."oh - one of THOSE....".

Kind of funny really - realizing the way she plays... (in a "perfect game" no one ever sees her...)

I like the Elemental suggestion... so Fire or Air? To bad there's not a Smoke Elemental. This is going to shape up nicely - I'll start looking at the conversion, and check back for more suggestions.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Smoke
Well, if you ever wanted her to be a weapon wielder, I would go with Azata, but you haven't said anything about that, so I would go air elemental.

The Bad news, you are going to lose some evo points...

Quote:


Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)

That all stays the same.

Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent (or climb)

She is also going to get immunity to sleep, paralysis, and electricity

You aren't going to be able to get the flight for another few levels, but at 8th level, you will get the 4 point perfect flight for free.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
FLite wrote:

Smoke

Well, if you ever wanted her to be a weapon wielder, I would go with Azata, but you haven't said anything about that, so I would go air elemental.

The Bad news, you are going to lose some evo points...

Quote:


Smoke - Small Humaniod Eidolon. NOT a combat creature. At the first sign of combat, Mirrors will normally "send her away". She is VERY SHY, and hides all the time (and is very good at not being seen). She is very curious - kind of like a kitten - and always looking for hidden things - and good at finding them.
Feats: 1) Extra Traits (Kobold neighbor & Inspired), 2) Skill Focus (Stealth)

That all stays the same.

Evolution Points: 1)Skilled (Stealth), 2) Skilled (Perception), 3) Skilled (Disable Device), 4) Scent (or climb)

She is also going to get immunity to sleep, paralysis, and electricity

You aren't going to be able to get the flight for another few levels, but at 8th level, you will get the 4 point perfect flight for free.

Why losing evo points? 7th level gets 6 pts from the table + 1 at 4th for being an elemental.

That's skilled x3, Climb, Scent (all 1 pt evos), and Winged Flight for 2pts. Total of 7pts. Am I missing something?

I think I'd suggest Fire -- the flight isn't as good, but immunity to fire is more thematically appropriate than electricity. And then she gets a speed boost to hide quicker.


All this talk about smoke and fire makes me think of this song.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I thought they said level 4 didn't they?

Quote:


So, I'm fishing for help converting my 4th level Summoner, trying hard to keep the flavor...

On the other hand, when they get to level 8, including the perfect flight, she will have exactly as many evo points as an APG eidolon at 8th level. (and will have 3 free immunities on top of that.

The Exchange 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

yeah, we're 4th level (just made 4th in fact) -

the Flight was added, and we've not played with it yet. and I can drop the Climb for now too.

So, looks like she'd loose the Climb and Fly, but pick up some immunities? That would work. It would be kind of odd for her to be immune to fire when Mirrors is resistant to Acid/cold/elect. (Aasimar) - but it really fits the theme! I like it.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Roasa Annarey Hellena de Noire wrote:

The last time I player with a summoner was when I was playing up with a level 5 in a 5-9. The summoner was 6th level and was handing out haste to the party like candy while the eidolon did 80% of the damage of the entire party thanks to evolution surge making a giant sized flying pouncing beast that put the druid, the druid's velociraptor AC, my monk, and the archer bard to shame.

....

How about when having a nasty pounce monster who literally killed like 80% of every encounter with the claw/claw/claw/claw/bite with acid/holy damage. Difficult Terrain? He flies.. Enlarge/Evolution surge moves him from large to 'oh my gawd'.

DOn't assume that you know the entirity of the encounter.. and please don't be snarky to others. You are free to disagree but other peoples opinions about their experiences are their own. Having one guy totally dominate the scenario might be nastier for them than you.

I can't assume I know the entirety of the encounter, but I can assume I can actually look up the rules to build a summoner. It is literally not possible to play within the rules and do what you describe. You cannot use Evo Surge to get Huge as it is a 6 point evolution, so you need greater, and you don't even have a regular Evo Surge at 6th level. At most it was starting at Large and became Huge from Enlarge Person.

If it was large, did it get left behind outside all the buildings with 5 foot doors and hallways? Because it was too big to fit.

You said it had Flight. I totalled up the evo points, and while possible, it would have needed to be mundane flight. Did they make flight checks? Not falling out of the sky and ending up prone on the ground when connecting on a flying pounce is a DC25 Flight check, which unless he dumped all his skill points that level into fly (and only that level - he couldn't fly before, so he didn't qualify), and took a Fly skill evo, would have been next to impossible; even with all of those, it's still a check he'd be failing a few times a game. He also wouldn't be able to hover without another high DC flight check, or maneuver in tight spaces.

Where was it getting holy damage from? There are only evolutions for elemental damages. Not to mention, they cost 2 evo points, and I'm pretty sure everything you've described added up would total up to 2 or 3 more evo points than it actually has.

For something that dangerous, you'd think the opponents would target it on occasion, given that it would have about 30hp and an AC in the mid teens (since doing the above would have taken literally every evo point it had, so no boosts to defenses, and the size increases would tank what AC it has) - your average Barbarian that level would be able to 1-shot it. Not to mention it would have a will save of +1.

I really do think you are either exaggerating, or the person playing that summoner was either cheating or had no idea how to build it correctly.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.

One of the bigger complaints about build a eidolon was all of the errors that lead to overpowered monstrosities and all of the "errors" that lead to overpowered monstrosities.

4/5

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


If it was large, did it get left behind outside all the buildings with 5 foot doors and hallways? Because it was too big to fit.

Large creatures can squeeze in and through 5 ft spaces.

Quote:
Did they make flight checks? Not falling out of the sky and ending up prone on the ground when connecting on a flying pounce is a DC25 Flight check,...

An attack is not the same as a collision. Even if you were to call an attack a collision, the collision is with the weapon, not the creature wielding it. Weapons have their own size categories based on "handedness" and natural attacks are considered light weapons, meaning they're two sizes smaller than the creature (which is not equal to their size or larger, the trigger for the DC 25 Fly check).

Quote:
Where was it getting holy damage from? There are only evolutions for elemental damages. Not to mention, they cost 2 evo points, and I'm pretty sure everything you've described added up would total up to 2 or 3 more evo points than it actually has.

Amulet of Mighty Fists? 16,000gp. I calculate WBL for a 6th character between 24k and 30k, so that's achievable. They would need a nearly perfect Fame, but that's also not terribly unusual.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


I can't assume I know the entirety of the encounter, but I can assume I can actually look up the rules to build a summoner. It is literally not possible to play within the rules and do what you describe. You cannot use Evo Surge to get Huge as it is a 6 point evolution, so you need greater, and you don't even have a regular Evo Surge at 6th level. At most it was starting at Large and became Huge from Enlarge Person.

Of the top of my head I assume it was: Evo Surge (medium to large) + Enlarge Person (Large to Huge)

But that seems like a heafty spell dump for a single combat.

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


You said it had Flight. I totalled up the evo points, and while possible, it would have needed to be mundane flight. Did they make flight checks? Not falling out of the sky and ending up prone on the ground when connecting on a flying pounce is a DC25 Flight check,

???

It is a DC 25 if you collide. End your charge one square (or more if large+ ahead of your target and on the ground. Pounce =/= run full into.

In fact charge avoids most if not all of the fly checks. (By definition it is a straight line move.)

Anyway, Flight is actually a bit of a waste on this one. Dragon Style is all he really needs to clear most charge lanes.

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


Where was it getting holy damage from? There are only evolutions for elemental damages. Not to mention, they cost 2 evo points, and I'm pretty sure everything you've described added up would total up to 2 or 3 more evo points than it actually has.

Aumulet of mighty fists maybe? Bit expensive, but should be doable at 6th level.

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:


For something that dangerous, you'd think the opponents would target it on occasion, given that it would have about 30hp and an AC in the mid teens (since doing the above would have taken literally every evo point it had, so no boosts to defenses, and the size increases would tank what AC it has)

Well, that assumes the summoner isn't boosting it's survival with his life link. And if he is, and there is a channel cleric in the party, the eidolon is getting healed double on each channel effectively.

And at 6th level, it is getting +4 to will from devotion against enchantments.

Also, it can be mage armored I believe.

Dark Archive

redward wrote:
An attack is not the same as a collision. Even if you were to call an attack a collision, the collision is with the weapon, not the creature wielding it. Weapons have their own size categories based on "handedness" and natural attacks are considered light weapons, meaning they're two sizes smaller than the creature (which is not equal to their size or larger, the trigger for the DC 25 Fly check).

A pouncing charge sure seems like one hell of a collision, but not counting as one by the rules would hardly be the weirdest thing in the game :) I will have to keep this in mind, since my APG summoner is about to hit 5 and I will be doing the flying charge thing, albeit to deliver a spirited charging halfling instead of pounce; I had been looking at how to pump my fly skill to avoid a problem it turns out doesn't exist.

4/5

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
A pouncing charge sure seems like one hell of a collision, but not counting as one by the rules would hardly be the weirdest thing in the game :) I will have to keep this in mind, since my APG summoner is about to hit 5 and I will be doing the flying charge thing, albeit to deliver a spirited charging halfling instead of pounce; I had been looking at how to pump my fly skill to avoid a problem it turns out doesn't exist.

Wouldn't you be doing a Ride-by-attack anyway to set up the next charge? That certainly wouldn't qualify as a collision in my mind.

Grand Lodge

Even if you do not count pouncing as colliding with something (watch a video of any big cat pouncing, you will likely change your mind) the DC to drop out of the air when hit is still a 10. Unless he drops all the skill points for the level into fly, he has a -7 on the check (12 Dex, poor maneuver, huge size), meaning a failure 80% of the time. Even dropping all the skill points into fly, you only come out with a +0, which means a fall 45% of the time.

And as Akari said, the AC for the beast is terrible at a 16, 14 if it is pouncing. Do not forget, it is all natural, so a touch attack is looking at a 9, 7 if pouncing.

Also, yes the summoner could have held on to a lot of gold spending 2/3 of his wbl on it.Course that ignores armor, cloak, stat boosting items etc. All for a +2d6 damage against evil foes.

Dark Archive

redward wrote:
Wouldn't you be doing a Ride-by-attack anyway to set up the next charge? That certainly wouldn't qualify as a collision in my mind.

I have RBA, but my usual tactic is to charge as an opener then stay close and exploit reach on both eidolon and summoner and Combat Reflexes with Trip on the eidolon to pin down casters and keep enemies from getting to the friendly squishies - I *can* charge, and I like to charge, but didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I would say pouncing is no more colliding than landing is (for example) colliding with the ground. Now, I could see a certain logic saying that to land requires a fly check, but currently, the system doesn't require it.

And as long as you fly to your target and land, they can't really hit you out of the air.

But then again, as I said, if I were building this, I would probably have put the flight points into Trip (and possibly push) and invest in combat reflexes (and some extra dex maybe.) Size large+, if the barbarian wants to attack me, I AoO hit and trip him 10 feet away. If he stands back up, I AoO hit him and push him back 5 feet to 15 feet away (so that he can't just take a 5 foot step up to me, he has to take a 10', and get tripped again...)

Grand Lodge

FLite wrote:
Well, that assumes the summoner isn't boosting it's survival with his life link. And if he is, and there is a channel cleric in the party, the eidolon is getting healed double on each channel effectively.

Except there was not in the story given. It was a Druid, his pet dino, a monk and a bard who focused on archery.

At best, the Eidolon had around 47 Hit Points of it's own and another 32 from the summoner. (A good barbarian or archer could clear both pools in 2 turns easily)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Sure. But how many really good barbarians or archers have you ever seen in a PFS scenario. They are designed to have a 90% survival rate by an average unoptimized party.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Roasa Annarey Hellena de Noire wrote:

The last time I player with a summoner was when I was playing up with a level 5 in a 5-9. The summoner was 6th level and was handing out haste to the party like candy while the eidolon did 80% of the damage of the entire party thanks to evolution surge making a giant sized flying pouncing beast that put the druid, the druid's velociraptor AC, my monk, and the archer bard to shame.

....

How about when having a nasty pounce monster who literally killed like 80% of every encounter with the claw/claw/claw/claw/bite with acid/holy damage. Difficult Terrain? He flies.. Enlarge/Evolution surge moves him from large to 'oh my gawd'.

DOn't assume that you know the entirity of the encounter.. and please don't be snarky to others. You are free to disagree but other peoples opinions about their experiences are their own. Having one guy totally dominate the scenario might be nastier for them than you.

I can't assume I know the entirety of the encounter, but I can assume I can actually look up the rules to build a summoner. It is literally not possible to play within the rules and do what you describe. You cannot use Evo Surge to get Huge as it is a 6 point evolution, so you need greater, and you don't even have a regular Evo Surge at 6th level. At most it was starting at Large and became Huge from Enlarge Person.

If it was large, did it get left behind outside all the buildings with 5 foot doors and hallways? Because it was too big to fit.

You said it had Flight. I totalled up the evo points, and while possible, it would have needed to be mundane flight. Did they make flight checks? Not falling out of the sky and ending up prone on the ground when connecting on a flying pounce is a DC25 Flight check, which unless he dumped all his skill points that level into fly (and only that level - he couldn't fly before, so he didn't qualify), and took a Fly skill evo, would have been next to impossible; even with all of those, it's still a check he'd be failing a few...

What if the Player in question stocked up on a few Greater Evolution scrolls? Didn't say they were used all at one encounter. I was pointing out of the session of a hard module.. the Player ATE like 80% of the fights with a creature that seemed to have every situation set up.

Yeah..he had flight, winged, and no he didn't pounce when he had to fly over difficult terrain. I was trying to point out a well designed monster can take out every encounter.. between 2 scrolls of Greater Evo Surge (one provided by his buddy who was a melee masher as well)

Typically he'd fly/charge up and either grab or pounce/maul the bad guy furthest from the players..then proceed to kill anything else in his hellish reach.

And tell you what..next time I'll track every bit of the minutiae so I can show things in a factual manner so you don't have to be so condescending. I'm done. All I was trying to point out is that wihtout some form of GM 'veto' the old Summoner in the hands of an optimizer the player can totally destroy scenarios.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dafydd wrote:
Unchained even made them less group friendly by taking their big team buff, Haste, and removing it's availability to 7th level. They got it at 4th, Wizard got it at 5th. Was the delay really needed?

From the voices of many player, Judges, and coordinators, the answer was a resounding YES. The summoner had both a powerful combat companion, AND a table w hose spells were not really retarded in progression despite being a six level caster. It was a partial caster with effectively a full caster in real ability.

5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Colorado—Colorado Springs aka Hakken

""""Well, that assumes the summoner isn't boosting it's survival with his life link. And if he is, and there is a channel cleric in the party, the eidolon is getting healed double on each channel effectively.

And at 6th level, it is getting +4 to will from devotion against enchantments.

Also, it can be mage armored I believe.""

GMs need to reread this ability

Life Link (Su): Starting at 1st level, a summoner forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.

In addition, the eidolon and the summoner must remain within 100 feet of one another for the eidolon to remain at full strength. If the eidolon is beyond 100 feet but closer than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 50%. If the eidolon is more than 1,000 feet away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane. Current hit points lost in this way are not restored when the eidolon gets closer to its summoner, but its maximum hit point total does return to normal

coupled with

Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.

means that an eidelon with 30 hps and a 13 con--that is hit for 40 points of damage can not use lifelink. The eidelon is at negative 10 hps and unconscious. There is NOTHING the summoner can do to stop it from going unconscious. He can only start sacrificing his hps when it would drop his eidelon to negative con and send it home.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Hakken wrote:
means that an eidelon with 30 hps and a 13 con--that is hit for 40 points of damage can not use lifelink. The eidelon is at negative 10 hps and unconscious. There is NOTHING the summoner can do to stop it from going unconscious. He can only start sacrificing his hps when it would drop his eidelon to negative con and send it home.

Right, but at that point (and this gets weird) If the eidolon is at 10 hit points and is about to take 25 points of damage, the summoner can spend 25 hit points to negate the hit entirely.

Well, to the eidolon anyway.

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