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Not that I know of. The changes to the class in brief are:
The class itself is pretty much exactly the same.
The spell list has been adjusted so you no longer get many spells at a lower level (so haste is back to a 3rd level spell for example).
The eidolons are the big change. Now when you make a summoner, you choose from a list of subtypes. Such as Demon, azata, inevitable, etc. The eidolon has a set alignment for their type (ie demon = CE) and the summoner must be within one step of the eidolon's alignment. Many of the evolutions have changed and/or changed in cost.
So pros- they've tried to balance it better.
cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearance
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cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearance
Am I missing something? You can't play plant-types or (actual) insect types, that's true, but looking at all the different lores of deamons, angels, and other subtypes I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you couldn't do just about anything outsider-themed. It IS an outsider after all, and always has been (there really aren't many outsider plants or insects).
As far as mechanics I feel like, aside from the necessary spell and evolution costs/description changes, they wanted the class to lean a bit more towards ACTUALLY fitting into one of the planes by forcing some basic characteristics. It all makes sense, and it really isn't that limiting. Most conversion analysis I've seen led to a very similar build with minor changes, and sometimes even power jumps depending on the outsider type. I have seen a few limits, but they usually applied only to attempts to build stuff that wasn't anything like an outsider.
Also the "Share Spells" power appears to be gone too, so no more personal buffs or animal/human buffs
Go read that again. It's still word-for-word the same.
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Since I don't have the book Heroes of the Wild, how is that archetype worded?
The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.
If the plant oriented summoner has different style bases it has to bypass that restriction somehow.
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I'm wondering how much of this occurs now:
Player #6 sits down after the muster.
GM: "Ok, what's everyone playing?"
Various players respond.
Player #6: "I'm playing my level 3 Summoner, Bob. He's all I have available to play in the 1-2 subtier of today's scenario."
Player #5 leans over.
Player #5: "Ah cool, I've been waiting to play with an Unchained Summoner... those original ones pissed me off and made me feel like my barbarian was a glorified animal companion... I'm glad those days are over."
Player #6 starts blankly at Player #5 for a moment.
Player #6: "I'm, uh, still playing the APG Summoner. If I converted, I'd have lost my ability to pounce and have 30ft reach with my fauchard."
All players at the table stare at Player #6, creating an air of discomfort at the table.
GM: "Okay, everyone, let's stay focused here. Drendle Dreng is explaining that he needs another bottle of wine..."
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Since I don't have the book Heroes of the Wild, how is that archetype worded?
The unchained summoner qualifies for all existing summoner archetypes, save those that modify the eidolon's type or base form.If the plant oriented summoner has different style bases it has to bypass that restriction somehow.
The Wild Caller Summmoner is not Unchained Compatable. Bolding mine for emphasis on the wording.
WILD CALLER
(SUMMONER ARCHETYPE)
A wild caller summons creatures from the First World and forges a bond with an eidolon with a plant body.
Plant Eidolon: When a wild caller summons his eidolon, the eidolon’s body is created from extraplanar plant material and imbued with the intelligence of a being from the First World. Its statistics are changed from a standard eidolon as follows.
Type: The eidolon has the plant creature type and extraplanar subtype. Unlike other plant creatures, the eidolon is not immune to mind-affecting or polymorph effects, though it does gain immunity to paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Base Form: The wild caller chooses one of the base forms listed below for his plant eidolon. When the eidolon is summoned in an environment matching one of these base forms, the wild caller can choose to change the eidolon’s base form to the matching form by sacrificing one daily use of his summon nature’s ally ability as a free action.Cactus (desert):
Size Medium;
Speed 30 ft.;
AC +2 natural armor;
Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad);
Attacks slam (1d8), sting (1d4);
Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11;
Free Evolutions limbs (arms), limbs (legs), sting, tail.Conifer (forest, mountain):
Size Medium;
Speed 30 ft.;
AC +2 natural armor;
Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good);
Attacks 2 claws (1d4);
Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11;
Resist cold 10;
Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), resistance (cold).Mushroom (swamp, underground):
Size Medium;
Speed 20 ft.;
AC +2 natural armor;
Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad);
Attack bite (1d6) plus poison;
Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11;
Free Evolutions bite, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), poison.Tree (forest, jungle, swamp):
Size Medium;
Speed 20 ft.;
AC +4 natural armor;
Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad);
Attacks 2 slams (1d8);
Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11;
Free Evolutions improved natural armor, limbs (arms), limbs (legs), slam ×2.This ability alters the summoner’s eidolon.
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cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearanceAm I missing something? You can't play plant-types or (actual) insect types, that's true, but looking at all the different lores of deamons, angels, and other subtypes I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you couldn't do just about anything outsider-themed. It IS an outsider after all, and always has been (there really aren't many outsider plants or insects).
As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.
Undead Eidolon, Skeletalal Champion themed, who took traits and feats to really fit the whole theme (including my Dhampir boon).
Needless to say, that idea got scrapped.
(not a complaint in the manner of wanting a change, or an exception, but a response to the sentiment that whatever the old Summoner could do, the new one can as well)
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cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearanceAm I missing something? You can't play plant-types or (actual) insect types, that's true, but looking at all the different lores of deamons, angels, and other subtypes I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you couldn't do just about anything outsider-themed. It IS an outsider after all, and always has been (there really aren't many outsider plants or insects).An eidolon can look like almost anything its summoner desires. Eidolon models are pre-built examples of base forms and evolutions that provide an easy guide to building an eidolon with a specific appearance or theme.Lets look at the models
Lots of Models!
So of the 22 models in Ultimate Magic, only 5 are based on...
While many who dabble in the arcane become adept at beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes, none are more skilled at it than the summoner. This practitioner of the arcane arts forms a close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolon, who gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning.
(later, in the Eidolon section)
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages
I'll have to check when I get the book back in front of me later tonight, but I would ask if you're missing some important context from UM (or if UM completely forgot the whole outsider stipulation).
Summoners have always summoned outsiders, it's in their subtype. Everything you listed from those types in UM were, by definition, outsiders. Now, you could replicate the physical shape and function as desired with the flexibility of the evolution points and body type, but they were still outsiders. The Unchained Summoner more or less says, "Okay, continuing with the whole outsider thing, but lets tie that outsider to a plane that reflects the typical critter traits you'd find there and give each some unique traits instead of letting players dump all of their points into being able to alpha-strike something so hard it rattles the teeth of their boss 12 miles away." You can still make a lot of these types anyway, and a lot of really powerful builds...
Aboleth - Pick one. You could pull something off like this from almost any type that has the serpent body-type. The attitude fluff would be a little shoehorned, but it's fluff, and mutable.
Angel - done.
Behir - doable. I'd probably go with one of the neutral or evil options and build from there with a quadruped or serpent body-types. Add legs and take the appropriate evolutions. You could even pick an outsider type that gives the electricity immunity (and then some)!
Bodyguard - So vague it could be anything. You could do a Daemon biped and fluff it so that it's a lesser Daemon who wants to collect souls to become a Purrodaemon. Or any of the good-aligned types, angel comes to mind. Practically anything with a biped option could fill this, several would even EASILY make human looking eidolons.
Centaur - Quadruped with arms. Pick a type to suit your fancy.
Chimera - Heads vomiting breath weapons and a tail with a stinger. I think they have wings too?
Demon - done
Devil - done
Dragon - I think there are even dragon types that are also outsiders (those really bizzare ones). All the evolutions for it exist. I'd personally go for an elemental sub-type to get all of those free evolutions, then do a little reskinning for flavor (heh, literally).
Drider - C'mon, these aren't even a challenge.
Fey - yep
Genie - yeeeep
Hydra - Head + reach + bite = hydra
................ (skipping to interesting ones)
Thing from Beyond - You could go anywhere with this, I'd go for protean or daemon, but just make sure to add a bunch of tentacles. Sort of a legitimate claim though because non of the sub-types are the Outer Realms (where chtulian things exist).
Undead - Legitimately difficult to replicate because of the Undead traits aren't easily replicated, but I don't think you could do that with the APG summoner either? I may be wrong. There was that vague replication evolution that isn't available anymore, so okay, you've got one.
Vermin - Another that would be slightly difficult. You could do Daemon, there's one... the Derghodaemon that is pretty insect fluffy. Since these have to be outsiders, you're not going to get an actual giant mantis, but you can choose evolutions to get there pretty easily, granted most types are not going to have built in defenses that easily match up with giant insect/vermin, so you'll have some immunities/resistances you wouldn't normally have. Darn. And anyway, any vermin-like eidolons created before were already smarter than your average vermin, so mindless is already out.
So, really, your argument is there are less options because some folks didn't read the class and ignored some fairly obvious details/traits concerning their primary class mechanic.
As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.
Yeah, that's fair, and a really cool build idea too. It is sad you can't do that, but they might offer that sort of thing further down the line. You can still fluff it/build it to look that way, but you'll be missing the actual traits. :(
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.Undead Eidolon, Skeletalal Champion themed, who took traits and feats to really fit the whole theme (including my Dhampir boon).
Needless to say, that idea got scrapped.
(not a complaint in the manner of wanting a change, or an exception, but a response to the sentiment that whatever the old Summoner could do, the new one can as well)
Am I missing something? Undead Appearance evolution is still legal. Take Psychopomp-Bipedal + Undead Appearance. Now you get everything fro UA + Immune to death, disease & poison (from psycopomp)
If anything it is actually better.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the original class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.Undead Eidolon, Skeletalal Champion themed, who took traits and feats to really fit the whole theme (including my Dhampir boon).
Needless to say, that idea got scrapped.
(not a complaint in the manner of wanting a change, or an exception, but a response to the sentiment that whatever the old Summoner could do, the new one can as well)
Am I missing something? Undead Appearance evolution is still legal. Take Psychopomp-Bipedal + Undead Appearance. Now you get everything fro UA + Immune to death, disease & poison (from psycopomp)
If anything it is actually better.
Or if you GM doesn't want an "undead" psychopomp, then go with daemon or inevitable. Both are decent approximations.
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As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.Undead Eidolon, Skeletalal Champion themed, who took traits and feats to really fit the whole theme (including my Dhampir boon).
Needless to say, that idea got scrapped.
(not a complaint in the manner of wanting a change, or an exception, but a response to the sentiment that whatever the old Summoner could do, the new one can as well)
Am I missing something? Undead Appearance evolution is still legal. Take Psychopomp-Bipedal + Undead Appearance. Now you get everything fro UA + Immune to death, disease & poison (from psycopomp)
If anything it is actually better.
Per unchained, that evolution is no longer legal as it wasn't included in Unchained. Also a little wacky to have a psychopomp masquerading as an undead.
-edit-
Oshi, wait, it is from a different source and it doesn't impact base type. Is it still legal?!
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yup. different source. They only outlawed the evolutions from APG.
They may change their mind, but that is just a good reason to get in under the wire before they do... (Which means Nefreet should come play his summoner next week. And I am not just saying that because we haven't seen him at game in forever :) )
Anyway, an undead psychopomp makes total sense. After all, why shouldn't a guide into death have come from the death side of the border?
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cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearanceAm I missing something? You can't play plant-types or (actual) insect types, that's true, but looking at all the different lores of deamons, angels, and other subtypes I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you couldn't do just about anything outsider-themed. It IS an outsider after all, and always has been (there really aren't many outsider plants or insects).An eidolon can look like almost anything its summoner desires. Eidolon models are pre-built examples of base forms and evolutions that provide an easy guide to building an eidolon with a specific appearance or theme.Lets look at the models
Lots of Models!
So of the 22 models in Ultimate Magic, only 5 are based on...
In fairness, they do need to ad some more subtypes. :)
Per unchained, that evolution is no longer legal as it wasn't included in Unchained. Also a little wacky to have a psychopomp masquerading as an undead.
-edit-
Oshi, wait, it is from a different source and it doesn't impact base type. Is it still legal?!
Actually, if the role-playing leap is too hard, try going with a Daemon as you base type.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
That is kind of weird. I wonder if the idea is that the good aligned planes are too proud to serve as mounts? Or if the idea is that they expect to be treated as equal and won't serve a summoner that treats them as subservient beings (since treating others as subservient beings is not generally regarded as a good aligned act.) Remember that a being acting as a mount is essentially submitting it's will totally to yours, moving exactly as and when you direct it.
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Yup. different source. They only outlawed the evolutions from APG.
They may change their mind, but that is just a good reason to get in under the wire before they do... (Which means Nefreet should come play his summoner next week. And I am not just saying that because we haven't seen him at game in forever :) )
Anyway, an undead psychopomp makes total sense. After all, why shouldn't a guide into death have come from the death side of the border?
Mostly because psychopomps hate undead according to the fluff I've found (admittedly not a ton). That said, I'd love to run into a character with it set up so I could hear how that happened.
In fairness, they do need to ad some more subtypes. :)
Seconded, thirded, and so on. I can think of at least a couple I would not mind seeing. :D
Actually, if the role-playing leap is too hard, try going with a Daemon as you base type.
Admittedly, it's currently my favorite sub-type. Not the most powerful by far, but I really like the fluff.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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That is kind of weird. I wonder if the idea is that the good aligned planes are too proud to serve as mounts? Or if the idea is that they expect to be treated as equal and won't serve a summoner that treats them as subservient beings (since treating others as subservient beings is not generally regarded as a good aligned act.) Remember that a being acting as a mount is essentially submitting it's will totally to yours, moving exactly as and when you direct it.Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
If that's the case, then Proteans wouldn't be willing to serve as mounts or servants, by their description:
...Beyond that, protean eidolons are
happy to work with their summoners for any purpose,
though they are quick to remind their summoners that
while they have a mutually benef icial relationship, they
are not servants.
I'm not saying that what you mentioned doesn't make sense, it's just that there's more than one type of proud creature on the list that would more likely refuse service. It's just a small problem I have with embedding fluff into the class mechanics.
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(Which means Nefreet should come play his summoner next week. And I am not just saying that because we haven't seen him at game in forever :) )
Ha! Maybe in a month =)
Right now, with school and work, I've only had time to GM Emerald Spire Saturday evenings and CORE on Sunday evenings.
I haven't actually played in months.
Hopefully this Summer I'll be able to get my geek on!
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Designer
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Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the original class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
Given that the elementals are the odd one out in that they're the only ones not based on the Outer Planes, in my home games, I'm probably going to make them the exception to the alignment restrictions as well. And elementals can easily do dragons (I think magma dragons are literally from the elemental plane of fire). Won't help in PFS, admittedly. You'd have to go NG.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Given that the elementals are the odd one out in that they're the only ones not based on the Outer Planes, in my home games, I'm probably going to make them the exception to the alignment restrictions as well. And elementals can easily do dragons (I think magma dragons are literally from the elemental plane of fire). Won't help in PFS, admittedly. You'd have to go NG.Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the original class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
That may be what I'd have to do. I was hoping for an LG character (you personally know I have so many questionably good characters. :D )
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Yup. different source. They only outlawed the evolutions from APG.
They may change their mind, but that is just a good reason to get in under the wire before they do... (Which means Nefreet should come play his summoner next week. And I am not just saying that because we haven't seen him at game in forever :) )
Anyway, an undead psychopomp makes total sense. After all, why shouldn't a guide into death have come from the death side of the border?
Mostly because psychopomps hate undead according to the fluff I've found (admittedly not a ton). That said, I'd love to run into a character with it set up so I could hear how that happened.
Well, they were created to serve Pharasma, and Pharasma hates the undead. So yeah, you would probably need a really good reason for Pharasma to give one of her servitors the semblance (if not the reality) of undeath and send it to serve a half living / half undead Dhampir
On the other hand, that could lead to a truely epic story line. Maybe Pharasma sent it to pass judgement on him. Or maybe it is a case of using the weapons of the enemy. Or it could be a servant of Pharasma corrupted into service of a necromancer.
(for the record, a skeletal, though not undead, psychopomp: catrina & vanth)
That may be what I'd have to do. I was hoping for an LG character (you personally know I have so many questionably good characters. :D )Given that the elementals are the odd one out in that they're the only ones not based on the Outer Planes, in my home games, I'm probably going to make them the exception to the alignment restrictions as well. And elementals can easily do dragons (I think magma dragons are literally from the elemental plane of fire). Won't help in PFS, admittedly. You'd have to go NG.Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the original class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
Try an Agathion
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Yup. different source. They only outlawed the evolutions from APG.
They may change their mind, but that is just a good reason to get in under the wire before they do... (Which means Nefreet should come play his summoner next week. And I am not just saying that because we haven't seen him at game in forever :) )
Anyway, an undead psychopomp makes total sense. After all, why shouldn't a guide into death have come from the death side of the border?
Mostly because psychopomps hate undead according to the fluff I've found (admittedly not a ton). That said, I'd love to run into a character with it set up so I could hear how that happened.
Well, they were created to serve Pharasma, and Pharasma hates the undead. So yeah, you would probably need a really good reason for Pharasma to give one of her servitors the semblance (if not the reality) of undeath and send it to serve a half living / half undead Dhampir
On the other hand, that could lead to a truely epic story line. Maybe Pharasma sent it to pass judgement on him. Or maybe it is a case of using the weapons of the enemy. Or it could be a servant of Pharasma corrupted into service of a necromancer.
(for the record, a skeletal, though not undead, psychopomp: catrina)
Oh damn. I like the judgement angle, that sounds AMAZING. I miiiiiight steal that for when my current summoner retires... >___>
Try an Agathion
A 'dragon' flying mount with Lay On Hands.... yikes. o_O
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Try an AgathionThat may be what I'd have to do. I was hoping for an LG character (you personally know I have so many questionably good characters. :D )Given that the elementals are the odd one out in that they're the only ones not based on the Outer Planes, in my home games, I'm probably going to make them the exception to the alignment restrictions as well. And elementals can easily do dragons (I think magma dragons are literally from the elemental plane of fire). Won't help in PFS, admittedly. You'd have to go NG.Personally, I think the restrictions make it much easier to actually do the stat-wise construction of a Summoner. After reading it over, I'm not as reticent to introduce newer players to the Unchained Summoner. That's a bit of relief.
I think the biggest challenge is negotiating flavor. I had a blob of GM credit sitting at 2nd level (not yet played at 2nd, sadly) that I was going to make a fiery dragon-riding LG halfling holy crusader. All good fluff-wise, but literally unable to make with Unchained Summoner rules. I think that it stand at odds with the flavor of the original class ("I made this with my imagination, and it likes me!") that someone Lawful Good cannot imagine a mount.
That's what I was going to suggest...but they aren't allowed to take the "Mount" evolution. Of course, something doesn't need to be a 'Mount' for you to ride it...but it's a lot harder if they don't.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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True, it is effectively a one point evolution to get rid of a -5 penalty (and reduce the cost of saddles)
So maybe it isn't that good planar creatures can't be mounts, it's just that they are so proud they keep second guessing their riders, and it makes them hard to ride...
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Can't use it as a mount. That evolution restricted to certain types. That may possibly be why.Try an AgathionA 'dragon' flying mount with Lay On Hands.... yikes. o_O
Ahh, that's fair. I keep forgetting about how some evolutions are limited in that only some sub-types can be applied. It's interesting how only evil or neutral types can be used as a mount... I use a daemon as my primary and use stealth to hide my mage, so I haven't dug into a lot of other build details regarding evolutions. Learning more by the hour it seems.
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For another dragon eidolon option, might I suggest basing it on a Yamaraj psychopomp?
They look pretty awesome and have really nice flavor.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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cons- way less customization, particularly in your eidolon's appearanceAm I missing something? You can't play plant-types or (actual) insect types, that's true, but looking at all the different lores of deamons, angels, and other subtypes I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you couldn't do just about anything outsider-themed. It IS an outsider after all, and always has been (there really aren't many outsider plants or insects).As I had mentioned (somewhere) up thread, I had a 6th level GM credit blob slated to be a Summoner, who would RP as a Necromancer.
Undead Eidolon, Skeletalal Champion themed, who took traits and feats to really fit the whole theme (including my Dhampir boon).
Needless to say, that idea got scrapped.
(not a complaint in the manner of wanting a change, or an exception, but a response to the sentiment that whatever the old Summoner could do, the new one can as well)
Actually, I asked and could not find a source one way or the other regarding the evolutions from ultimate magic.
So unless I missed something you could totally create that undead looking eidlon (some the evil outsiders, could work and maybe we will get a daemon variant at some point)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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For another dragon eidolon option, might I suggest basing it on a Yamaraj psychopomp?
They look pretty awesome and have really nice flavor.
Also does not permit the mount evolution. Only Daemon, demon, devil, elemental, or protean subtype. I really would like to know the design rational for that list.
Can't use it as a mount. That evolution restricted to certain types. That may possibly be why.
Why not? You don't need the Mount evolution (on an Eidolon) or special quality (on anything else) to use something as a mount. In fact, since it's sapient (Int 3+), this shouldn't be a problem at all if it's willing.
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Also does not permit the mount evolution. Only Daemon, demon, devil, elemental, or protean subtype. I really would like to know the design rational for that list.For another dragon eidolon option, might I suggest basing it on a Yamaraj psychopomp?
They look pretty awesome and have really nice flavor.
It really makes no sense for Devil to be on that list as they only have the Biped base form but Mount requires Quadraped or Serpentine base form.
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Can't use it as a mount. That evolution restricted to certain types. That may possibly be why.Why not? You don't need the Mount evolution (on an Eidolon) or special quality (on anything else) to use something as a mount. In fact, since it's sapient (Int 3+), this shouldn't be a problem at all if it's willing.
For pfs I guarantee you will have GMs who take will issue with you trying to ride an eidolon that doesn't have the mount evolution.
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Can't use it as a mount. That evolution restricted to certain types. That may possibly be why.
Yeah, I think that Agathion not being mount material is the think I'll most sad about when Gimbulundray goes Unchained Summoner with an Agathion. I'll happily pay more for Pounce (or drop it entirely) and bump up Haste to a third level spell to be able to tell my table i'm playing an Unchained summoner.
(I try not to be That Person when I play my summoner, but to be honest when the party is in bad shape and I have to crank it up to 11, I do that with my summon list, not my eidolon).
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I'm not a fan of the new summoner. In fact, I don't think I really understood on a gut reaction how some people felt about the APG summoner until I realized I felt that way about what think of as the new coke summoner.
That said, I feel like I need to at least look at converting. Considering that my favorite thing to do was to skirt designer intent by not making pounce monsters but making 12 int skill monkeys and wand wielding creapy children and such I suspect their is little here for me.
Am I wrong? Please, tell me I'm wrong.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, your skill monkey won't be *as* disgustingly skilled, I expect, but because it will have fewer evo points, but it should still be pretty disgusting.
I can't see why the creepy child would be any harder. In fact it could be easier. Psychpomps are plenty creepy.
On one hand, the Wildcaller (Plant version) archetype is legal for APG summoners... so yay! On the other hand its also means we are losing out on the APG version for a more tame version; ironic how the Unchained Summoner is more "Chained" then his old counterpart which is more "Unchained".
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I'm not a fan of the new summoner. In fact, I don't think I really understood on a gut reaction how some people felt about the APG summoner until I realized I felt that way about what think of as the new coke summoner.
That said, I feel like I need to at least look at converting. Considering that my favorite thing to do was to skirt designer intent by not making pounce monsters but making 12 int skill monkeys and wand wielding creapy children and such I suspect their is little here for me.
Am I wrong? Please, tell me I'm wrong.
The new summoner makes a pounce eidolon significantly harder, your creapy children should be fine^^