the monk still bugs me - it' practically useless unless you are goin for an armorless build. You just don't really get anything
Think about it;
Lvl 3: Unarmed Strike: you could just take the feat, and for damage dice scaling you could just use a combination of Monks Robes, the Brawling Enchantment, and maybe some other effects, yes, maybe you're damage dice don't become as big as a Monks, but at least is a better situation than trading away the ability to use armor
Lvl 7: Evasion: Just buy the ring
Lvl 11: Ki Pool: As you can't flurry, you can't spend a Ki Point to gain an extra attack. If you want to move extra distance, buy some boots. if you want +4 AC wear armor.
Lvl 15: AC Bonus: way too little, way to late, and even light armor gives me a better AC Bonus.
Lvl 19 Improved Evasion: nice ablity, too bad games basically never get to Level 19.
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Now, how I would of done it:
Lvl 1: Improved Unarmed Strike: A character who chooses monk as his secondary class who has also taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may deal unarmed damage equal to a monk of half his character level.
Clerics get their Aura of good at level 1, so I feel this is ok, also, as a character has to invest yet more feats into their secondary class to get this benifit, and the scaling only goes to 1d10 for a 20x2 weapon at level 20, no-one is going to be reasonably crying foul
Lvl 3: AC Bonus: When wearing no Armor or Light Armor, not using a shield, and unencumbered a monk gains a +1 bonus to his AC and CMD. At 7th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1.
short, sweet, and actually useful, I haven't playtested this so maybe reducing the frequency of +1s would be needed.
Lvl 7: Stunning Fist: A character who chooses monk as his secondary class gains the Stunning Fist feat, and may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to half his character level. A Secondary Monk my apply alternate effects to his Stunning Fist as a Monk of his level -3.
if the amount of uses per day are too high (would have to playtest) then we would just drop Stunning fist back to the regular once a day per four levels
Lvl 11: Ki Pool: At 11th level, he gains the ki pool class feature of a monk of his character level – 2, with a number of ki points
equal to 1/2 his character level. He only ever gains ki pool (lawful) if he is of lawful alignment.
By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a Secondary Monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but he can do so only when making a full attack. This additional attack does not need to be made with a Monk weapon or Unarmed Strike.
Ninjas can do this from level 2, so if a Secondary Monk wants to spend their limited Ki on an additional attack then I say let them. Te removal of the need for a monk allows for more versitile options, again a Ninja can do the same with any weapon from Level 2.
Lvl 15: Evasion: A character who chooses monk as his secondary class gains the Evasion class feature. If a Secondary Monk already has Evasion from a different source, he automatically gains Improved Evasion instead.
Lvl 19: Quivering Palm as a Monk of your character level
Nice capstone that works well with stunning fist, if a Sorcerer can get their 15th level Bloodline ability at 19, then this shouldn't be an issue.
That's mostly a problem with the Gunslinger not being that great of a class to start with. It's hard to give away decent class features when you don't have any. :/
Grit and Quick Clear at level 3, Gun Training at level 7. Bada bing, bada boom, you have everything that a person who says "I want to shoot guns but I don't want to be a Gunslinger" could ask for.
The problem with gunslinger is that they have only a single class feature, Gun Training. If you give it away, you might as well delete the class. But on the same hand, without it shooting with a gun is , to say the least, impratical.
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Yay for[...] Paladins getting Rage without losing class features!
Fan-TASTIC.
Seriously, this is awesome.
It's now possible to create a true-to-the-source Lancelot character without having to do Gestalt BS nonsense or multiclass into Bloodrager for a level.
(For those who are confused by this, go and watch Monty Python & The Holy Grail - due to several of the Pythons being legit Arthurian Scholars, that portrayal of Lancelot is actually THE most accurate in all of cinema; Lancelot in the Medieval Romances had a VERY bad habit of getting "too excited" while smiting and would end up killing more people than he intended to save because he just couldn't stop lopping off heads, and then being very, very apologetic afterwards about the whole mess).
That's mostly a problem with the Gunslinger not being that great of a class to start with. It's hard to give away decent class features when you don't have any. :/Grit and Quick Clear at level 3, Gun Training at level 7. Bada bing, bada boom, you have everything that a person who says "I want to shoot guns but I don't want to be a Gunslinger" could ask for.
That would be nice (aside from still needing to wait until level 7 before your guns deal level appropriate damage), but it isn't what they get. At 3rd level they get firearm proficiency, and at 7th level they get Gunsmithing. At no level do they get any ability to increase their firearm damage, making it virtually worthless.
Lvl 11: Ki Pool: As you can't flurry, you can't spend a Ki Point to gain an extra attack. If you want to move extra distance, buy some boots. if you want +4 AC wear armor.
This brings up another question. The "Unchained" Monk doesn't get to spend a point from their Ki pool for +20 movement or +4 dodge to AC for 1 round like the "Chained?" Monk can (they have Ki powers that they choose). So if the Unchained Monk is used for VMC, then Ki Pool does nothing but allow unarmed strikes to bypass Damage Reduction. The number of points you get is irrelevant since you can't spend them on anything at all.
If it isn't the Unchained Monk then you can at least spend points on two things (movement or AC) so it isn't quite as bad.
I like the Unchained Monk much better, but for VMC, I would prefer the old Monk.
This whole VMC thing, Admiral Akbar said it best: It's a trap!
This whole VMC thing, Admiral Akbar said it best: It's a trap!
i disagree, this made my bomb-chucking gunslinger i wanted to play MUCH better, VMC a little Alchemist and im solid :D
Mostly is a trap, but some stuff passed under the radar and are very good, like VMC Magus to get swash precise strike
Mostly is a trap, but some stuff passed under the radar and are very good, like VMC Magus to get swash precise strike
Magi can already use Arcane Deed for this though, and with less expenditure of feats (2 feat-equivalents instead of 5). And wouldn't Cavalier's Challenge be better in this case, since it doesn't fail against anything that laughs at sneak attack?
Deity: At 1st level, she must select a deity within one alignment step of her own. She gains the cleric’s aura, bonus languages, code of conduct, and restriction from casting spells of opposed alignments. She also gains the cleric’s spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.
Well, Sacred Summons just became an option for, like, anyone that likes to summon!
Deity: At 1st level, she must select a deity within one alignment step of her own. She gains the cleric’s aura, bonus languages, code of conduct, and restriction from casting spells of opposed alignments. She also gains the cleric’s spontaneous casting ability, which she can use with any prepared casting classes that have the appropriate spells on their spell lists.Well, Sacred Summons just became an option for, like, anyone that likes to summon!
...This is a Wizard buff.
Mostly is a trap, but some stuff passed under the radar and are very good, like VMC Magus to get swash precise strikeMagi can already use Arcane Deed for this though, and with less expenditure of feats (2 feat-equivalents instead of 5). And wouldn't Cavalier's Challenge be better in this case, since it doesn't fail against anything that laughs at sneak attack?
Dekalinder is saying that now a non-magus can get Swashbuckler Precise Strike through the VMC Magus option.
I'm more than happy with my Taillefer Cosplay ala' Cavalier VMC'ing a Bard.
Though I do have to say it seems to make the Battle Herald pretty redundant, Inspire Courage is commonly seen as one of, if not the, best option for a B.Herald to take when inspiring away and this way the Cavalier keeps:
His Mount Scaling
His Challenge Scaling
His Order Abilities
His Banner's Quicker Scaling
Upgraded Tactician
Similar Scaling on Inspire Courage
Scaling Bardic Knowledge
All of which would normally fall by the wayside if you decide to jump into B.Herald. So all-in-all, I like it.
Now excuse me, I have maidens to rescue, Dragons to slay and the Chanson De Roland to sing all the while.
TL;DR: There are Fluff and Crunch benefits to VMC'ing
I really wish that instead of distributing bits of the class throughout 19 levels they had gone with focused "themed" VMCs. They also didn't really need to shackle* themselves to only giving abilities at the level feats are lost. That just unnecessarily restricts the design space.
Some examples of roughly the sort of things I would have liked to see(note:any mention of getting spells refers to getting them as spell likes with a clause about expensive material components still needing to get used)
Druid:
at level 4, give wildshape as a Druid of character level/2 + 2
(level 8, 6th level wildshape - pounce at this level)
at level 10, trackless step and woodland stride
(level 12, 8th level wildshape)
at level 14, A Thousand Faces,
(level 16, 10th level wildshape)
at level 19, timeless body
(level 18, 12th level wildshape)
at level 20, unlimited wildshape uses/day
Druid, a different theme:
at level 4, nature bond of level-3
at level 7, wild empathy, nature bond goes to character level
at level 11, a single orison at will, or a single 1st level spell 3/day
at level 15, poison immunity
at level 19, a single spell of level 5 or lower, 3 times/day, or a spell of level 3 or lower at will.
(both druid VMCs have to follow druid restrictions like no metal armor etc)
Bard
at level 3, you get bardic performance as a bard of your level-2, but you can only use 2 performances available to a first level bard, chosen at this level.
at level 7, versatile performance in 1 skill, you count as a bard of your level, choose another performance available to a bard of your level
at level 11, another performance, a single spell of spell level 3 or less 1/day, or a masterpiece that can replace a spell of 3rd level or lower
at level 15, another performance, second versatile performance skill
at level 19, all performances available to a bard of same level are usable. A single spell on the bard list 1/day, or any 1 masterpiece
Barbarian
at level 3, Rage, but only a +2 bonus to str and con. Also, a single rage power
at level 7, Full bonus from rage, uncanny dodge
at level 11, rage power
at level 15,Greater rage, rage power
at level 19, tireless rage, another rage power
These are all much more focused, and give the most important part of the VMC fairly early on. They are a lot better for building a character around, instead of the majority of the current ones, where a build only comes online at mid to high levels.
*pun intended
It makes them a lot easier to balance if they follow a consistent pattern. One for one tradeoffs.I really wish that instead of distributing bits of the class throughout 19 levels they had gone with focused "themed" VMCs. They also didn't really need to shackle* themselves to only giving abilities at the level feats are lost. That just unnecessarily restricts the design space.
They need to balance each one individually anyway. Having a hard restriction like that actually makes it harder because they can't shift around the level abilities are acquired at to tweak balance.
It makes them a lot easier to balance if they follow a consistent pattern. One for one tradeoffs.I really wish that instead of distributing bits of the class throughout 19 levels they had gone with focused "themed" VMCs. They also didn't really need to shackle* themselves to only giving abilities at the level feats are lost. That just unnecessarily restricts the design space.
That's not what happened though. While none of the VMC options are overpowered, it's pretty obvious that the Wizard and Magus VMC are far more powerful than most of the other options.
I think the Monk VMC would work better if its armor restrictions actually corresponded to the granted class features. In that case, unarmed strike and ki pool would be unaffected by armor worn, evasion and improved evasion would would require light or no armor, and the AC bonus feature would be the only one to actually require no armor.
In that case, the AC bonus feature could actually be worthwhile to a lightly armored character with high dexterity.
I think the Monk VMC would work better if its armor restrictions actually corresponded to the granted class features. In that case, unarmed strike and ki pool would be unaffected by armor worn, evasion and improved evasion would would require light or no armor, and the AC bonus feature would be the only one to actually require no armor.
In that case, the AC bonus feature could actually be worthwhile to a lightly armored character with high dexterity.
agreed, but getting the AC bonus at such a late level is still unacceptable
Okay, to get this straight, the VMC from Unchained gives ONLY the secondary class options.
No class skills?
If you want to do a wilderness archerdin, you are still better off dabbling in a level or two of Ranger, aren't you?
Yep.
I'm pretty sure the poor design on the Monk VMC is to prevent Empyreal Sorcerers from getting wisdom-to-ac basically for free. Much the same reason Nature's Whispers and its ilk were specifically excluded from the Oracle VMC.
Basically, full casters ruin everything.
I'm pretty sure the poor design on the Monk VMC is to prevent Empyreal Sorcerers from getting wisdom-to-ac basically for free. Much the same reason Nature's Whispers and its ilk were specifically excluded from the Oracle VMC.
Basically, full casters ruin everything.
So in other words, in order to prevent a subset of full casters from spending up to 5 feats for wisdom-to-ac and some mostly irrelevant junk, they opted to make the monk VMC terrible.
The term "Unchained" is seeming more and more ironic.
VMC Dreamscarred's Vitalist with Cleric/Inquisitor and you are a God of Healers.
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Summoner/VMC Bard. Inspire courage for your Eidolons and Summon Monsters. I'm testing it out with an unchained summoner with an Azata eidolon (a Lillend wielding a glaive [both of us worship Shelyn]). It has been very effective even though I think I chose some what poorly on my spells.
Without a doubt I agree some of the VMCs could use work (though the current Monk can work for a Kensai Magus extremely well in emulating a Spellfist [even if just that]), there is some decent possibilities still.
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Inspire Courage is literally one of the most multiplicative things in the game. It is multiplied by number of creatures it affects, which is then multiplied by number of attacks available to each creature, which is then multiplied by each attack's chance to critical hit. That's not counting that it effectively multiplies its own damage boost thanks to its accuracy boost. And the summoner is literally able to bring in more creatures which further increases the effectiveness of Inspire Courage. And you're telling me inspire courage is NOT worth 5 feats ALL BY ITS LONESOME?
Secondly, on summoning feats. Summoning is already an AMAZING action. It brings in more effective hp, essentially out doing the equivalent level Cure Spell if you can make sure the monsters are targeted with the attacks. It brings in more action economy on your team, bringing in 1 or more Full Round Actions for the cost of 1 Round of actions (or a standard action if a Summoner). Finally it creates "terrain" and flanks by clogging the battle field. Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning and other feats are very much "icing" on the cake that is summoning. You don't need to take feat options to make summoning effective. I would argue that Inspire Courage is more then worth prolonging the Augment Summoning or Superior Summoning a little while longer.
My favorite summoners (not the class) before VMC was Evangelist Cleric with the Heroism subdomain. This new Herald Caller though is looking simply delicious and the bard VMC and heroism subdomain... ugh.
On the subject of wanting a bard. It should be noted I tend to play in groups of 3 players and a DM most often so Bards are in rare supply. And even if my group wasn't small, bard isn't that common of a class in my own experience.
After a lot of thought, I think I have a VMC combo that works.
Kitsune Fey Sorcerer + VMC Void Wizard
You essentially gain a familliar at lvl 3, +2 or more to all saves (vs spells and spell-like abilities) and a really nasty debuf ability at 9, and at 15 you can get the Infectious Charms arcane discovery.
Plus the Void school really fits the asian theme of the character. The only issue of course is not being able to go for a spell perfection or eldritch heritage build, but I think it is totally worth it.
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VMC Void School wizard is excellent option for any character that requires enemies to fail their saving throws. Excellent catch there Matrix Dragon. I want to VMC enchanter with Mesmerist. School familiar (familiar folio) for enchantment produces a very similar effect (for enchantments anyway) as void school.
Eh, anyone know if the VMC Bard qualifies for Bardic Masterpieces?
greetings folks - i'm looking for some guidance from some folks who have investigated VMC more than me (I discovered it yesterday)
I have an idea for a character i'd like to play - a creepy tengu cultist type. Not sure if what I'm thinking is even legal in terms of game mechanics, or if it is viable whether it would be any benefit to do it.
I came up with the idea of multiclassing a soulbolt with a zen archer to add the level scaling weapon creation ability of the soulbolt to the zen archer's wisdom based awesomeness. I think both of these classes would probably be fairly heavily nerfed by splitting level progression between the two over time (we're probably starting from lev 1 or 2 after having played previous characters up to 18) I'm not sure which i should use as the primary and which should be the secondary class.
can anyone help me get a better idea of the way those two are likely to interact on VMC? I'm feeling like I'm really not understanding things. I'm particularly interested in how the first few levels would play out for abilities.
would really appreciate some help.
greetings folks - i'm looking for some guidance from some folks who have investigated VMC more than me (I discovered it yesterday)
I have an idea for a character i'd like to play - a creepy tengu cultist type. Not sure if what I'm thinking is even legal in terms of game mechanics, or if it is viable whether it would be any benefit to do it.I came up with the idea of multiclassing a soulbolt with a zen archer to add the level scaling weapon creation ability of the soulbolt to the zen archer's wisdom based awesomeness. I think both of these classes would probably be fairly heavily nerfed by splitting level progression between the two over time (we're probably starting from lev 1 or 2 after having played previous characters up to 18) I'm not sure which i should use as the primary and which should be the secondary class.
can anyone help me get a better idea of the way those two are likely to interact on VMC? I'm feeling like I'm really not understanding things. I'm particularly interested in how the first few levels would play out for abilities.
would really appreciate some help.
Well, sadly Soulknife is in Ultimate Psionics which is sadly not official paizo. So I doubt they'd ever make rules for a VM version of it, in addition to the fact that both Zen Archer and Soulbolt are archetypes for the class. So the easiest bet is to shelve that build and try it out in a gestalt campaign (just make sure to grab Emulate Ranged Weapon asap). It's also probably easier to just shelve it for a gestalt campaign because some of the VM versions of classes are kinda... meh. Some are gold but others just make you question everything. Like the fighter one where by the end you get a +2 to attack and damage of a specific weapon group and -2 armour check penalties and +2 to the max amount of dex. So worth losing half your feats for!
Anyways, one thing I also wanted to bring up was a build I came up with using this system that I'll be using in a future campaign. Dual cursed oracle with the Wood mystery and then the VM sorcerer to go into the Verdant Bloodline, grab thematic casting for fluff to base your spells around plants and bam! It's not the most effective thing in the world to do, but it's a fun build that has a lot of flavor.
I don't feel as bad about taking things like thematic casting for this campaign cause we are planning on having it be a very mini gestalt, where instead of losing half your feats to get a little extra flavor or versatility, you instead just gain it without sacrificing anything.
I do gotta say that I do like this system for the sake of a softer gestalt, since the main reason why my friend and I played gestalt a lot was because we wanted a bit more versatility, but with gestalt it's way to easy to break the game. At least with this you have very limited choices and don't gain all that much unless you're really digging for gold.
I like certain VMC's and use them when my GM allows. Fighter, Barbarian, and Wizard (Divination) are excellent choices depending on your class and what your shooting for and generally well worth the feats your giving up. Rogue, Witch, Druid, Magus and some Oracles are also pretty good IMO.
I agree that Gunslingr and Monk are generally prob not worth it to take. I also don't like the Cleric and Ranger VMC's much.
I think fighter would be good if it allowed you to qualify for fighter feats. Cause if it did, with the weapon focus line and the 3.5 feat that adds to that line, you're looking at a nice +6 to damage and to hit vs the +2 to hit and damage. Though even then, that would be pretty much the only feats you could grab unless you're doing a variant of gestalt.
The Cleric VM is highly situational, as someone pointed out earlier, it's good for Wizards and other prepared casters since now you have spontaneous casting, and can learn any Wizard spell in the game, since you would still keep the Wizard's spells known. But yeah, I gotta agree that the Ranger VM isn't that great. It's not as bad as Monk, cause it's at least usable, but it's still pretty meh compared to other VMs.
Edit: I totally overlooked the fact that the Monk's VM is a dodge bonus to ac, IE, stackable with other dodge bonuses to ac. I could see a fighter taking the Monk VM since they have a lot of bonus feats anyways and that extra ac and evasion is nice, plus having the unarmed with a reach weapon is also nice.
The Cleric VM is highly situational, as someone pointed out earlier, it's good for Wizards and other prepared casters since now you have spontaneous casting, and can learn any Wizard spell in the game, since you would still keep the Wizard's spells known.
Cleric VMC only allows spontaneous casting if the spell is already on your list. So no to Wizards, but yes to Witches.
Cleric VMC only allows spontaneous casting if the spell is already on your list. So no to Wizards, but yes to Witches.
The Cleric VM is highly situational, as someone pointed out earlier, it's good for Wizards and other prepared casters since now you have spontaneous casting, and can learn any Wizard spell in the game, since you would still keep the Wizard's spells known.
Ah, damn. Still that's pretty good. Situational still, but really good for witches.
I'm playing a High Con Unchained Monk VMC Barbarian. Just got to level 3 so it's just coming online but I think it's a very flavourful and interesting combination. Ki And Rage at the same time should be quite good especailly since he's got the Combat Stamina Feat too. Three pools of martial points to do martially things.