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Is it just my imagination, or are there entire tables both on Play by Post and at conventions that are lacking in a healing character?
The reason I ask is because between a weekend onvention and some PbP I've seen, there are very rarely healers?
In fact, that's part of the reason I took up some Cleric, aside from rp-story reasons. I just find it really confusing and hope it's not a trend?
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I was speaking more 'in general', but at the convention in question my 1 (and later 2) levels of Cleric was more healing than a good chunk of the people playing. I think there was maybe one or two other people not playing on Kyra pregens that had some sort of in-class healing power besides wanding?
Also, that 2 pp price is for a Wand of Cure Light CL1, right? What happens when parties get to higher levels?
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I think the general school of thought is: It is usually a better tactic to do something else besides heal in combat. At least that's a common thought around my area. If you're healing in combat something has gone wrong. They set characters up so that they have enough AC/HP to last an entire fight then spend time outside combat healing.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but if I have to choose between possibly dropping the bad guy or healing the fighter 1d8+x I'm most likely going to be attacking the bad guy.
As for tables where no one could use a wand, I've only experienced that a few times in my hundreds of tables played/GMed. Of those one of the most memorable games ended in a double TPK (I took pity and had Osprey find them unconscious (they all stabilized) and healed them up mostly). But then they all died again at the hands of undead... :/
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I think he is talking about a table with no PCs that can use a wand... say a party of a Fighter, Rogue, Monk, and Wizard... each with a wand of CLW, and no one at the table who can use it.Sure you'll see tables without.
Wands are a good thing. 2pp. Get one.
Well, many (most) rogues will be able to UMD a wand.
A lot of classes can use a wand of clw as well... In just core you have bard, cleric, Druid, ranger, paladin (half of the classes, right?)
Add to that alchemists, inquisitors, oracles, witches, shaman, hunter, skald, warpriest.
It seems tough to not have a character that can cast cure light wounds
Finally, add to that the ability for wizards, sorcerers, arcanists, summoners, bloodragers, and magi to cast infernal healing.
Really, only fighters, barbarians, monks, rogues, brawlers, Slayers, swashbucklers, Gunslingers, and cavaliers, samurai and ninjas cannot cast any healing spells (or at least use the wands without UMD).
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I think the general school of thought is: It is usually a better tactic to do something else besides heal in combat. At least that's a common thought around my area. If you're healing in combat something has gone wrong. They set characters up so that they have enough AC/HP to last an entire fight then spend time outside combat healing.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but if I have to choose between possibly dropping the bad guy or healing the fighter 1d8+x I'm most likely going to be attacking the bad guy.
As for tables where no one could use a wand, I've only experienced that a few times in my hundreds of tables played/GMed. Of those one of the most memorable games ended in a double TPK (I took pity and had Osprey find them unconscious (they all stabilized) and healed them up mostly). But then they all died again at the hands of undead... :/
The build I've got going has some Slayer (what I started with) and some Cleric (as things developed rp/storywise) because of a few modules where we almost had TPK because of that very reason, either an outright lack of skills or those with skills *refusing* to use them.
As a result, there have been a couple of situations where I had to make a choice between stepping up to fight or healing downed party members because we were playing up, and it was very much the party (and character) saver?
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Really, only fighters, barbarians, monks, rogues, brawlers, Slayers, swashbucklers, Gunslingers, and cavaliers, samurai and ninjas cannot cast any healing spells (or at least use the wands without UMD).
And there's no strong disincentive (in some cases other benefits) for any of those classes to take a level of ranger.
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I think he is talking about a table with no PCs that can use a wand... say a party of a Fighter, Rogue, Monk, and Wizard... each with a wand of CLW, and no one at the table who can use it.Sure you'll see tables without.
Wands are a good thing. 2pp. Get one.
Well, many (most) rogues will be able to UMD a wand.
A lot of classes can use a wand of clw as well... In just core you have bard, cleric, Druid, ranger, paladin (half of the classes, right?)
Add to that alchemists, inquisitors, oracles, witches, shaman, hunter, skald, warpriest.
It seems tough to not have a character that can cast cure light wounds
Finally, add to that the ability for wizards, sorcerers, arcanists, summoners, bloodragers, and magi to cast infernal healing.
Really, only fighters, barbarians, monks, rogues, brawlers, Slayers, swashbucklers, Gunslingers, and cavaliers, samurai and ninjas cannot cast any healing spells (or at least use the wands without UMD).
Has the Inquisitor been added? Alchemists have specific language saying they can use wands; inquisitors have no such wording. I thought the consensus was that they cannot. That said, inquisitors can be very solid at UMD.
Edit: I meant Investigator, and my fingers typed Inquisitor. So sorry for the error.
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To the general topic of the thread.
I have rarely seen dedicated healers in PFS, but some do exist. My life oracle, Magwedda Desnadottir, keeps life link on everyone she is with, and has crackerjack channeling (9d6 seven times a day at 7th level). She fights with a longspear and stays back mostly, but she can threaten and aid another with the best of them. Mostly, though, she's a buffer/debuffer spellcaster.
As most people say, it is difficult to keep up with healing, but sometimes it makes or breaks encounters. There are dedicated healers out there.
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Has the Inquisitor been added? Alchemists have specific language saying they can use wands; inquisitors have no such wording. I thought the consensus was that they cannot.
I'm not familiar with this consensus. An inquisitor casts divine spells and her spell list includes cure light wounds. What would prevent her using a wand?
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DesolateHarmony was confusing Inquisitors for Investigators.Has the Inquisitor been added? Alchemists have specific language saying they can use wands; inquisitors have no such wording. I thought the consensus was that they cannot.I'm not familiar with this consensus. An inquisitor casts divine spells and her spell list includes cure light wounds. What would prevent her using a wand?
I sure was! Thanks for the catch.
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DesolateHarmony was confusing Inquisitors for Investigators.Has the Inquisitor been added? Alchemists have specific language saying they can use wands; inquisitors have no such wording. I thought the consensus was that they cannot.I'm not familiar with this consensus. An inquisitor casts divine spells and her spell list includes cure light wounds. What would prevent her using a wand?
Ah, good point then. I've avoided this question since my Investigator is also a Ranger (not for that reason, but it comes in handy).
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At higher levels, you can end up with dedicated healers who don't ever do anything. More than once, I've seen life oracles start healing the bad guys just so they have something to do. (Of course, I've also seen a gnome oracle use Breath of Life three times on a purchased mount, just because he thought it was cute and didn't want it to die...so that might not mean anything.)
I've met several players who have experienced getting bullied by other players when they played the healer (being told they needed to spend all their gold on healing the other characters, getting yelled at if someone's character went unconscious, etc.). I don't know how prevalent it was, but I think it resulted in kind of strike of sorts. For a while, there were very few (if any) healers in the area, and players playing a pregen would run anyone but Kyra. That pendulum has swung back more to center in the past 1.5-2 years, so it might that the damage has finally worked itself out of the system.
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Good tactics by the party (or bad tactics by the enemy) decreases the need for in-combat healing. I'm not saying in-combat healing is never needed, but it is not inevitable in every combat.
Healing should never be the one and only shtick for a character. It should be an option a character possesses. My life oracle is a buff/debuff/summons-style character. Even when I play a pregen Kyra, I swap out her spells to be buffs or offensive spells so she can contribute during combat.
At high levels, proper preparation (resist energy, stoneskin, blur/displacement, boosted ACs, alpha striking, etc) combined with rocket tag means a dedicated healer better find a way to contribute during combat other than healing because otherwise they risk being a bored bump on a log as the party SWAT teams through a dungeon.
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I'm reasonably responsible with my spell selection, especially given that clerics can 'hot-swap' for a healing spell in a pinch.
Admittedly, the load-out either has party buffs, or personal combat buffs, but the option is available.
And this isn't the only 'schtick' for the character in question. It just seemed sort of weird after having a few online addictions to NOT have some sort of solid healing power? Refreshing on one hand, disturbingly dangerous if say, a 'Langford' starts going to town?
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Almost every single character I've played in PFS proper has been able to, at the very least, cast some healing spells off wands. Sorcerer with high UMD and wand of CLW and wand of infernal healing, life oracle, inquisitor, barbarian with high UMD, hedge witch, paladin.
With the exception of the life oracle (who's built to stand up front and do a mild amount of body-blocking, while also healing the entire party well), none of them would ever cast a heal mid-combat (except in the rare case where it's "heal this guy immediately or he DIES!").
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I am curious how you manage 9d6 at level 7. Even assuming the phylactery and putting 7 levels of favoured class bonus into it you are looking at only 7d6.To the general topic of the thread.
I have rarely seen dedicated healers in PFS, but some do exist. My life oracle, Magwedda Desnadottir, keeps life link on everyone she is with, and has crackerjack channeling (9d6 seven times a day at 7th level). She fights with a longspear and stays back mostly, but she can threaten and aid another with the best of them. Mostly, though, she's a buffer/debuffer spellcaster.
As most people say, it is difficult to keep up with healing, but sometimes it makes or breaks encounters. There are dedicated healers out there.
I think I was adding a die instead of a level for the favored class bonus. Thank you for pointing it out to me.
Teach me to research my level ups on the fly.
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This trend is why my first character is a paladin, one of my friends' -1 character is a cleric, and we each followed up with sorcerers. Our local meta is lousy with fighters, rogues, and barbarians; not only do you not see a healer, you can frequently see no casters at all barring someone from the old guard (otherwise known as my home game group) sitting at the table.
Everyone's grateful when you bring one - but no one wants to do it themselves.
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If a non-caster is at all prepared, early level healing isn't that bad. The Vial of Efficacious medicine and a wand of cure light wounds (or infernal) are on almost every one of my characters. Now, 5 of my 7 active characters can cast cure (the sorcerer uses UMD with a +19 and can cast Infernal healing). Also, most pure healers I've seen are ineffective. Damage out scales healing until heal (11th level) so healing in combat is more of a delay tactic casting buffs in combat and heal ooc is generally more effective. (There are two notable exceptions to this IMO, Oradins since they passively heal and heal themselves on swifts, and one player I've seen who makes almost exclusively Clerics (but even her heal bots are generally buffing))
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I can think of 4 different life oracles in my area off the top of my head. It's something that pops up semi-often. The usual advice is to have your healer able to be good at something else as well as healing. Reach fighter, buffer/debuffer/aid specialist, tank... mine summons. Not only does this provide an effective role to the party, but it's more fun to play. Being the healbot is boring.
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Honestly, I hate having pure healers in the party since they tend to be so useless. I much prefer effective buffing clerics or the like who can heal ooc if the need arises.
Really after a character has gotten 2pp they should be responsible for their own healing.
Part of what I was going for was an answer to this -- If the people that CAN use the wands REFUSE to out of combat, what good is the 2PP paperweight?
Granted, I've only encountered this at conventions, and the tables had... other issues.
And there were two modules at my last convention where if I *didn't* have the Healing Domain rocking... it would have ended poorly for us.
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Honestly, I hate having pure healers in the party since they tend to be so useless. I much prefer effective buffing clerics or the like who can heal ooc if the need arises.
Really after a character has gotten 2pp they should be responsible for their own healing.
Part of what I was going for was an answer to this -- If the people that CAN use the wands REFUSE to out of combat, what good is the 2PP paperweight?
Granted, I've only encountered this at conventions, and the tables had... other issues.
And there were two modules at my last convention where if I *didn't* have the Healing Domain rocking... it would have ended poorly for us.
Wait--you've encountered other players who won't use your wands on you out of combat?
Or do you mean players who won't share their wands?
One dynamic I've seen is that healers are often treated as sidekicks or porters, not characters in their own right. Combined with the tendency of new players to get handed the healer role, you end up with an attitude of "Just stand there and come heal me when I tell you to." It irks me when players constantly refer to a "healbot" or "Kyrabot"--especially when they then complain that they don't see any healers around. (Hm...why might that be, do you think?)
When we're running demos, anytime I hear a player sigh and say, "OK, I guess I'll have to play the healer", I ask the GM to run the demo with the highest number of low HP undead. Sure, Kyra can heal, but have you actually checked her stats to harm undead? She kicks ass.
The role of healers is an interesting one. One the one hand, they can save parties, BUT the fame goes to the Damage dealers.OOC healing is the norm I encountered so far. Most often with a CLW wand. Sometimes a chracter actually incvested in a CMW Wand. Only exception I encountered so far is the Life Oracle.
Then there comes some arrogance of damage dealers. I think I saw a thread here which quoted a Barbarian and a cleric (In fullplate and obviously not purely Heal oriented). The Barb player only said to cleric:"You can heal, so always stay behind me" or something similar to those lines.
That seems to be a common mindset. Plus many think such dedicated healers make the game boring, since many intended dangerous situations are not so dangerous anymore if you have a healer onboard who knows what he is doing.
Said Lifeoracle not only heals quite effectivly, but also gives as Reroll possibilities and other buffs.
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Even though I am often the main damage dealer in my adventuring party, I am not above healing in combat, it if means the difference between a friend dying or living. Ice done it more than once in my career. However, most of my healing has been with happy sticks after the fight.
But the key is that you have to be adaptable.
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Wait--you've encountered other players who won't use your wands on you out of combat?
One dynamic I've seen is that healers are often treated as sidekicks or porters, not characters in their own right. Combined with the tendency of new players to get handed the healer role, you end up with an attitude of "Just stand there and come heal me when I tell you to." It irks me when players constantly refer to a "healbot" or "Kyrabot"--especially when they then complain that they don't see any healers around. (Hm...why might that be, do you think?)
When we're running demos, anytime I hear a player sigh and say, "OK, I guess I'll have to play the healer", I ask the GM to run the demo with the highest number of low HP undead. Sure, Kyra can heal, but have you actually checked her stats to harm undead? She kicks ass.
My wand, my charges, party is getting/has gotten MAULED, nearly having to throw wadded up paper at the person who could USE said wand to get them to use it.
'Healer' "Oh, but I don't want to waste your charges!"
Me: "That's what they are THERE for."
'Healer' "uhhhhhh."
It's happened more than once with different people. Much to the exasperation of not only myself and some of the party members, but also the GM running.
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Wait--you've encountered other players who won't use your wands on you out of combat?
My wand, my charges, party is getting/has gotten MAULED, nearly having to throw wadded up paper at the person who could USE said wand to get them to use it.
'Healer' "Oh, but I don't want to waste your charges!"
Me: "That's what they are THERE for."
'Healer' "uhhhhhh."
It's happened more than once with different people. Much to the exasperation of not only myself and some of the party members, but also the GM running.
Wow. I've never seen that. I'm not sure I can wrap my brain around it.
I guess you could tell them, "I just like the way it feels" or something. Heck, we've used wands of Mage Armor as timers before: "We only have an hour? Here--when this runs out, you'll know it's time to leave."