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Or - maybe I misunderstood your question. Is the question regarding the fact that the great majority of PFS players only level to 12? If so, then I'll explain further. What will power the leveling is a sort of algorithmic engine that will use existing data to build the player character. Once this engine is in place, it will build any character level based upon the data involved. What I am saying is - if we can build an engine to power characters to 12, then it is nearly trivial to power them to 20. The 'hard part' will be creating this leveling engine to begin with. Those remaining eight levels of play will exist for completion as well as because they just won't be very difficult to do compared to the rest of it.
Yeah that was it.
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Glad I could clear it up. Rereading my response, I think "nearly trivial" is quite likely an overstatement; however, I don't think the code for stuff 12-20 will be all that bad in relation to the rest of the work. And given that we'll need it anyway for homebrew, we might as well shoot all the way to 20.
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Glad I could clear it up. Rereading my response, I think "nearly trivial" is quite likely an overstatement; however, I don't think the code for stuff 12-20 will be all that bad in relation to the rest of the work. And given that we'll need it anyway for homebrew, we might as well shoot all the way to 20.
As a software engineer, I was going to say something to that effect, but I knew what you meant ;).
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Just made a witch, here are a few things I encountered:
Feat Extra Hex: I wasn't able to select the Hex for the feat
Class features: Wasn't able to select a patron
Also, I find the current way lists are implemented slightly problematic.
It's really hard to see what feats/ traits/ hexes, etc. have been selected already.
Maybe a comma separated list at the top listing the selected stuff might help?
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Just made a witch, here are a few things I encountered:
Feat Extra Hex: I wasn't able to select the Hex for the feat
Class features: Wasn't able to select a patronAlso, I find the current way lists are implemented slightly problematic.
It's really hard to see what feats/ traits/ hexes, etc. have been selected already.
Maybe a comma separated list at the top listing the selected stuff might help?
You're right that Witch's patrons are missing, as well as the extra hex not working correctly.
Here's what I'll do - instead of clerics, we will do witches next. Working on the archetypes gives an opportunity to spend more time with each class and do some clean up, and it looks like the witch class could use it.
I believe we'll be ready to start work on witches likely tomorrow. The weekend looks 'clear' so far (yay!) - so this work should be completed pretty quickly.
I also agree with you on current feats/traits/etc selections - viewing previous selections is not ideal. I do want to visit this one before the push to 20. It may have to wait until after archetypes unfortunately, but I do promise we'll make it better.
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From a UI poinz of perspective you have basically two options:
Treat them as one long list and mark the selected ones (not a good idea, since the lists are really long)
or
Treat them as two seperate lists: selected and available.
Even better, but too late in the design process, I guess, would be not use trees instead of lists for both, so you could do nifty stuff like visualize relationships between feats.
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From a UI poinz of perspective you have basically two options:
Treat them as one long list and mark the selected ones (not a good idea, since the lists are really long)
or
Treat them as two seperate lists: selected and available.
Even better, but too late in the design process, I guess, would be not use trees instead of lists for both, so you could do nifty stuff like visualize relationships between feats.
I can grow an idea out of the second option, and I actually have a third suggestion as well.
As a variant of the second position, we would have a system that sorts the list with the selected items on the top of the list, and then the unselected items that follow.
For example - let's use traits. Currently, if you search through traits and select "Reactionary" (which is pretty deep in the table since it is alphabetical), when the page refreshes, you won't see an easy way to de-select Reactionary. It's buried in the table, which is still full of selections as you may choose two.
Currently, you would either have to:
- Type 'Reactionary' in the search filter to find it
- Select a second trait, so that the table shrinks to only those you've selected, and then deselect it
Both are not really acceptable as they are 'extra' work for something that should be simple.
So, to grow on your second suggestion, we could change how items are sorted so that items selected always come *first* on the list, followed by all other potential selections in alphabetical order. That way, your previously selected trait would be at the top of the list, in case you wish to deselect it.
I also have a third suggestion as well.
We could list the previously selected items at the top of the table, in the form of clickable buttons. In this example, after choosing Reactionary, a button would appear through something like this:
Selected Traits: <button>Reactionary</button>
Clicking this button will automatically cause the table to go to the page where Reactionary dwells, so that you might deselect it.
Which of those two options is preferred? Would very much enjoy feedback. We won't be visiting this right away - it'll be after archetypes - so it's good to sort out a plan that sounds workable for everyone. I am very much making this for the community to actually use - so it's very important to me to hear what works best for you.
EDIT: I didn't mean to dismiss the second option for my variant - so to clarify, I think that could also be a possibility. We could create two tabs (much like the other tabs the application has), one containing potential options, the other containing previous selections.
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An archetype update has migrated over!
Archetypes as they stand now - those in bold are complete:
Alchemist
Barbarian
Barbarian (Unchained)
Bard
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Rogue
Rogue (Unchained)
Sorcerer
Wizard
NEXT TO BAT: Witch
REMAINING:
Arcanist
Bloodrager
Brawler
Cavalier
Cleric
Gunslinger
Hunter
Inquisitor
Investigator
Magus
Ninja
Oracle
Ranger
Samurai
Shaman
Skald
Slayer
Summoner (Unchained)
Swashbuckler
Warpriest
We will likely tick through the remaining archetypes in alphabetical order by default; however, if there is a particular high priority class for anyone, please do feel free to make suggestions. They *all* need to be done, so order is fairly arbitrary.
I am also happy to say that we have crossed the halfway mark for this LARGE task. While it may appear as if we're only about a third of the way - we're further than that. The classes we have done so far are particularly archetype heavy (monks, druids, and rogues were particularly voluminous) while the remaining classes are more light. As such, based on number of archetypes remaining to implement, this is where we are at:
PFS Archetypes Total: 490
PFS Archetypes Complete: 259
PFS Archetypes Remaining: 231
The Witch is already underway, which will see another 14 complete. After that we'll just start ticking through the list.
Thanks so much everyone - this is going to be a lot of fun once we get this stuff ready and can open up for the whole planet.
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I already jumped into the Arcanists, but Gunslingers can easily be next. A quick look over tells me that they should be pretty easy to implement.
Arcanists, on the other hand - egads. Glad there's less than a dozen of them.
And kinevon is right - we're also "done" with Monk (Unchained) as well :) I will update the list!
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Shaman it is, after Gunslingers :) Edit - a quick read tells me Shamans will be "easy", which is good!
The tool is getting better and better :)
Yay! Exactly as it should be. My aim is that this tool never stops improving. I hope years from now we can look back and be amazed that it started in the shape it did back in April. It's already come a very far way in a few months.
Ray of Sickening appears to be in - I wonder what happened? It may be that the spell selection table lagged, perhaps? You can see that the spell is in, and the Witch has it at level 1, here:
http://tabletopgiant.com/spells/ray-of-sickening
I was also able to create a witch, add it to her familiar, and select it as a prepared spell.
Give it a shot, and if it still doesn't work, let me know the details of what you are doing to find it - we'll get it straightened out.
The spell selections are much slower than I'd like, and I'll say right now that this is something to be revisited. Hopefully in between archetypes and the push to 20.
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This Looks great. Would it be possible to add my name to the list for the next batch of user codes being sent out?
Thank you
You bet - I'll send out more sometime near the weekend. If there's anyone else that might like to try it, just let me know. :)
Hm, yeah, now it works.
No idea what worked wrong the last time, but I am happy that it worked now :)
Let's keep an eye on that one though; sometimes bugs can creep out if circumstances are 'just right' and appear to work just fine otherwise. Glad it is working now though!
Arcanists are proceeding well - if slowly - and Gunslingers and Shamans should be easy to add once the Arcanists are done. It's the 'special' requirements that slows things down, and Arcanists have a bunch.
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Couple things to report:
Unchained Barbarian is showing the CRB Rage power on the PDF.Same PC, not showing that Invulnerable Rager archetype has been selected. It has no affect till 2nd-level, but should still show up as selected.
I found a large stick and I beat the Unchained Barbarian class about the upper body for about ten minutes, and it is now behaving correctly (I believe).
Also, I LOVE the image selected for Pai. Looking at the PDF generated is a reminder that a lot of work remains to be done at page lines and other character sheet organization. The 'online' character sheet is easier than the PDF because we don't care about where the page ends; the PDF will need some more work.
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Couple things to report:
Unchained Barbarian is showing the CRB Rage power on the PDF.Same PC, not showing that Invulnerable Rager archetype has been selected. It has no affect till 2nd-level, but should still show up as selected.
I found a large stick and I beat the Unchained Barbarian class about the upper body for about ten minutes, and it is now behaving correctly (I believe).
Also, I LOVE the image selected for Pai. Looking at the PDF generated is a reminder that a lot of work remains to be done at page lines and other character sheet organization. The 'online' character sheet is easier than the PDF because we don't care about where the page ends; the PDF will need some more work.
She looks a lot better now. Thanks.
As to the picture, if you'd played with my 16-year-old daughter, you'd like it even more. I've seen that face more than once. :-)
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Just made my first character, a barbarian. One thing, I had selected the Primal Hunter archetype at some point, then took it off later. But it still lists Exceptional Pull as one of my bonus feats (even though it gave me back the fast movement). It also is telling me I am proficient with Medium armor, but not light.
Also, is it a known issue that I am able to select human Race Traits with any race (such as Auspicious Tattoo)? Because that is happening for me.
But other than minor issues like that, this seems like a pretty solid character generator. Way better than any browser-based generators I've used.
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Just made my first character, a barbarian. One thing, I had selected the Primal Hunter archetype at some point, then took it off later. But it still lists Exceptional Pull as one of my bonus feats (even though it gave me back the fast movement). It also is telling me I am proficient with Medium armor, but not light.
Also, is it a known issue that I am able to select human Race Traits with any race (such as Auspicious Tattoo)? Because that is happening for me.
But other than minor issues like that, this seems like a pretty solid character generator. Way better than any browser-based generators I've used.
Thank you for the feedback! I'm not sure what happened with the light armor proficiency yet, and that's a little worrisome. I did clean your character up for you and the feats should now be correct - no exceptional pull and light armor prof is back. Also, should you take Primal Hunter again and remove it, Exceptional Pull will be removed (or - if it doesn't, throw something at me, and I'll make it work).
I'll have to research the mysterious lack of the light armor proficiency a bit more to understand that one.
As far as the traits - thank you! We didn't know actually. Most of the race traits correctly filter, but I checked up on your comment and it does look like there are a number of human traits that require regional origins that are not checked, including the one you had mentioned. I'll queue that up to be fixed.
Thanks!
EDIT: Light Proficiency bug found and squashed :)
Just noticed the link to this on AoN; I'd love to get a code if you do another batch!
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Updates :)
- Archetypes for Bloodragers, Brawlers, and Cavaliers are IN
- Gunslinger archetype 'Bolt Ace' now has errata applied; they now may select a crossbow, and their specials have been updated.
- Gunslinger 'Gunsmith' weapon selection improved
- Maximum age is now (Venerable - 1); meaning, the maximum age you can be is the maximum you are still merely "Old". This is to match requirement in PFS guide that a character may not be venerable.
- Access codes sent to those who asked (check ur PMs!)
Thanks!
How long do you think it will be until the Occult classes are added in?
Also, I chose the flag bearer feat on a character, but there does not seem to be any way to equip a flag.
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How long do you think it will be until the Occult classes are added in?
We're about ~75% way through archetypes, which has been a rather sincere task and has taken a lot of time and effort. That said - we're getting there, and I think the more difficult classes to implement are behind us. I am hoping we can wrap archetypes up within the next month (don't hold me to that please).
The first thing planned after archetypes is a full data audit. Of that audit, I'd actually like to hit Occult Adventures first. I do not expect the new classes should take all that long to implement - very roughly I would say perhaps a couple of weeks of work. I also am including all the archetypes for each new class in this estimate - there aren't very many archetypes for these new classes and so they shouldn't be "too" bad.
For those who haven't dealt with software before, I will say though that estimates are often rather difficult to get correct. There is often a "gotcha" - some darn thing that comes up when implementing that makes you pull your hair out and say "oh crap, I didn't see THAT coming", and which forces the schedule back.
So, my estimates with everyone here are as honest as I can make them given what I can "see" at the moment; if I were making these same estimates for a corporate software engineering job (a fine hell that is), I would likely triple or even quadruple the estimate just to make sure I make the deadline and have plenty of room for 'gotchas'. This is random advice for anyone who is a new programmer - *always* triple or quadruple estimates of time for engineering tasks when speaking to your superiors.
This method of task estimation is supported by Star Trek's Scotty:
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Look, Mr. Scott, I'd love to explain everything to you, but the Captain wants this spectrographic analysis done by 1300 hours.
[La Forge goes back to work; Scotty follows slowly]
Scotty: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. But the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah, well, I told the Captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour.
Scotty: How long will it really take?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: An hour!
Scotty: Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would *really* take, did ya?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Well, of course I did.
Scotty: Oh, laddie. You've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker.
Edit: I got distracted by looking up Star Trek quotes - I just added 'Flag Bearer' as an internal ticket to track. It may not happen right away (mutter archetypes mutter), but I do think we can come up with something.
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I'd love an access code if you're still giving them out :)
As this type of post has gotten repetitive, and I'm a smart-!@#, I'd like to hereby request that all future requests for codes be phrased as memes. For example:
I can haz codez?
BTW, this is just an example. One of the other personalities in this head already has access and is quite impressed with the progress to date.
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I'd love an access code if you're still giving them out :)As this type of post has gotten repetitive, and I'm a smart-!@#, I'd like to hereby request that all future requests for codes be phrased as memes. For example:
I can haz codez?BTW, this is just an example. One of the other personalities in this head already has access and is quite impressed with the progress to date.
Please no. Some of us use the internet for its usefulness and don't need to be bombarded with stupidity at every. single. front.
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I do understand both rationals of thought, and therefore will be accepting registration code requests within the range of everything inclusively between dry and academic up towards running around in circles, clapping your hands, and making motorboat noises.
Code sent :)
Archetypes are still progressing. These have been a big deal. I hope no one minds if I play a trumpet solo when they are finally complete (fair warning: I do not know how to play a trumpet).
I'm just wondering but will you wonderful people at Tabletop Giant be planning on eventually setting up statblocks for created characters?
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For those who haven't dealt with software before, I will say though that estimates are often rather difficult to get correct. There is often a "gotcha" - some darn thing that comes up when implementing that makes you pull your hair out and say "oh crap, I didn't see THAT coming", and which forces the schedule back.
So, my estimates with everyone here are as honest as I can make them given what I can "see" at the moment; if I were making these same estimates for a corporate software engineering job (a fine hell that is), I would likely triple or even quadruple the estimate just to make sure I make the deadline and have plenty of room for 'gotchas'. This is random advice for anyone who is a new programmer - *always* triple or quadruple estimates of time for engineering tasks when speaking to your superiors.
The standard I heard at one company was "double the number and increase the unit". Sooo, if you thought it was "2 hours" then report it as "4 days". If you thought it was "3 days", report it as "6 weeks".
That company had many, many things wrong with its IT processes and staffing, so I can't exactly say it worked. But the basic idea of "overestimate" is sound. Research repeatedly demonstrates that even software experts don't know beans about estimating with any precision.
Is it possible for you guys and gals at Tabletop Giant to help fund this en devour by setting up a Patreon account or something like that?
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For those who haven't dealt with software before, I will say though that estimates are often rather difficult to get correct. There is often a "gotcha" - some darn thing that comes up when implementing that makes you pull your hair out and say "oh crap, I didn't see THAT coming", and which forces the schedule back.
So, my estimates with everyone here are as honest as I can make them given what I can "see" at the moment; if I were making these same estimates for a corporate software engineering job (a fine hell that is), I would likely triple or even quadruple the estimate just to make sure I make the deadline and have plenty of room for 'gotchas'. This is random advice for anyone who is a new programmer - *always* triple or quadruple estimates of time for engineering tasks when speaking to your superiors.
The standard I heard at one company was "double the number and increase the unit". Sooo, if you thought it was "2 hours" then report it as "4 days". If you thought it was "3 days", report it as "6 weeks".
That company had many, many things wrong with its IT processes and staffing, so I can't exactly say it worked. But the basic idea of "overestimate" is sound. Research repeatedly demonstrates that even software experts don't know beans about estimating with any precision.
I do believe you are referring to Cheop's Law. The first 90% of a project will take 90% of the time allotted for the project. The last 10% of the project will also take 90% of the time allotted for the project, as well.
Which is why Cheop's pyramid changes shape near the top 10%...
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Codes sent - check your PMs :)
I'm just wondering but will you wonderful people at Tabletop Giant be planning on eventually setting up statblocks for created characters?
That's an interesting idea that I'll admit to not considering before. On the 'Your Characters' page, as well as the table for the Character Factory, we do have a summary for each character - I think a styled statblock - in a format that is common in the game - would be a more informative, nicer way to summarize the character within that table.
I think this is a solid suggestion and I created an internal ticket so we don't forget about it.
Is it possible for you guys and gals at Tabletop Giant to help fund this en devour by setting up a Patreon account or something like that?
I won't lie - this question made me happy.
A Patreon account is definitely a possibility. Just upgrading the server would be a good 'nice to have', and of course being able to fund it to the point that I could support it 24/7, instead of just in what off hours I can scrounge, would be fantastic to the level of a dream come true.
Before a Patreon page is made though I'm kind of pushing for a bare minimum of functionality; I want everyone to feel good about the thing they are donating for. I want archetypes complete first, and then some additional clean-up and some other user functionality that's coming soon, and then - yes, Patreon might be the way we go. We would also open up the thing for public use at that time, too.
And then of course the push-to-20 will follow. And then after that - well, there's going to be a lot more after that, and it's going to be fun. My mind is full of ideas.
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So whats left?Codes sent - check your PMs :)
Archetypes completed for Clerics, Hunters, Inquisitors, and Investigators.
We're getting there.
That would be: Magus, Oracle, Ranger, Samurai, Skald, Summoner (Unchained), Swashbuckler, and Warpriest.
The light at the end of the tunnel is getting bigger. :)
