I would also suggest the critical feats and possibly the combat expertise feats with perhaps a feint slant. Though considering how many weapons you would be throwing out a star-knife build may be viable for those big x3 crits.
Appreciate the response!
Yeah, I checked out that Swashbuckler archetype as I was doing the research for this build. Some fun stuff in there, but doesn't quite muster up...plus I don't want to track panache and the plus to damage will suffer as I'm not sure if there's a feat that adds DEX to damage.
As far as feint, I believe that's melee only, according to the text of the rule (emphasis mine):
Bluff Text:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
So I'm not sure I'd want that part of the build (although I've always want to do a feint build...)
Wondering if you could comment on my build. I wanted to put together a character that focuses on thrown weapons but can also move in for close combat when needed. Throw something while enemies are flat-footed, then get close to flank or stay at a distance if needed. Sort of a skirmisher.
I know it's not optimal or anything, but the concept sounds fun.
Build and some additional thoughts are below.
Thanks for taking a look - appreciate input and comments!
Build Info:
Name - Peymen
Race - Human
Class - Slayer 1-7 / Fighter 8-11
Human FCB for an extra slayer feat at 6
Trait - River Rat
Trait - Indomitable Will
S - 18
D - 15 (17 by 8)
C - 14
W - 12
I - 10
Ch - 7
-I had a thought to not focus on daggers but instead use other weapons as needed (Spear/Chakram for range & Damage, light hammer for range, etc.) but seems best to focus on one type of weapon to increase to hit/damage and daggers, with their crit threat, seem to be best. Starknife might be fun for flavor. Thoughts?
-Is it worth it to take 7 levels in Slayer just to get studied target as a swift action? 5 levels in Fighter would get me Weapon Training, so maybe better to do that?
-Any Fighter archetypes that would help with the build? Seems like I could get rid of Armor Training and Bravery.
-Will definitely get a Blinkback Belt when Fame allows.
-Is Double Slice worth it? Maybe Iron Will would be better?
-Maybe make CON 12 and WIS 14?
-Delay 2-Weapon Fighting until 3 and take Improved Initiative at 1? Thinking 2-Weapon might be better as BAB increases.
The MW rules don't let you add the MW quality to each end separately. A double weapon is either MW (at +600) or it isn't. So, you're good to go.
I like this logic - I'd think that most PFS GMs would go for this...know I would.
Planning on making a Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 4 in PFS Core and was looking at being a 1/2 Orc and taking an Orc Double Axe as my character's bonded weapon.
Of course, going Human and just going Great Sword sounds good as well with the extra feat.
But I digress, as those are thoughts for another thread....
If a Wizard chooses a Double Weapon as her bonded item, are both ends MW? I know the MW and Enchant costs for Double Weapons is, well, doubled because each end needs to be accounted for.
Just wondering how this would translate to the free MW Weapon the Wizard receives at first level.
Thoughts/Discussion below - thanks for taking a look!
Issue
Unwitting Ally is an Advanced Rogue Talent, with the prerequisite "Advanced Talents". Rule as written, although Unwitting Ally is listed as one of the Rogue Talents available as a Slayer Talent (non-Advanced), the Slayer has to gain the class ability "Advanced Talents" - by leveling up to Slayer level 10, or having Rogue level 10.
Questions for Thought
If this is the intention, why not list Unwitting Ally as a choice for the Slayer's Advanced Talents? Was this a clerical error? Let's call this Proposition 1.
Or, perhaps, Paizo did mean to give the Slayer earlier access to Unwitting Ally - to give them an edge in combat over the Rogue, that the Slayer is better at slaying enemies? In this case, Paizo's mistake is not having addressed the prerequisite "Advanced Talents" by stating an exception. Let's call this Proposition 2.
Analysis
RAW, Proposition 1 is the way to go.
Personally, I am going along with Proposition 2 - that a Slayer can have Unwitting Ally as early as 2nd level - on a RAI basis. My reasoning is that the sentence "If the rogue talent has a prerequisite, the slayer must fulfill the prerequisite before taking that rogue talent." is meant to address specific prerequisites, for example you need to take the Firearm Training talent before taking Grit. Not a general prerequisite like "Advanced Talents".
Rogue Talent: A slayer can select one of the following rogue talents in place of a slayer talent: bleeding attack*, camouflage, combat trick, fast stealth, finesse rogue, firearm training, grit, hard to fool, lasting poison, powerful sneak, rogue crawl, slow reactions*, snap shot, sniper's eye, surprise attack, swift poison, terrain mastery, trap spotter, unwitting ally, or weapon training. Any talent effects based on rogue level use the slayer's class level. If the rogue talent has a prerequisite , the slayer must fulfill the prerequisite before taking that rogue talent. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, it grants the slayer a new rogue talent.
Yeah, I'll post it over in the Rules section as the thread is derailing from the original intent.
Vanykrye said wrote:
It's an advanced talent for rogues, and under slayer you still have advanced talents, one of which is called "Rogue Advanced Talents and Ninja Master Tricks"
Right, but Unwitting Ally is listed under Slayer Talents, not Slayer Advanced Talents. So, it would seem to make sense that it could be selected as a Slayer Talent (i.e. Level 2 and up) as that's where it's listed regardless of where it falls for a Rogue.
Would seem if it were an Advanced Slayer Talent, that's where it would be listed.
Thanks, Errant_Epoch. I'm guessing that's where this line: "Any talent effects based on rogue level use the slayer's class level." comes in.
You'd just think they would have put it in the Advanced Talents section of the Slayer since that's specifically called out and there are advanced rogue talents offered after level 10. If they didn't want it available 2-8, you'd think it would go there with the rest of the Advanced Rogue talents.
Yeah, I worried about allies not being together too much which was one of my concerns. Although there do seem to be a lot of encounters in PFS in tight spaces which could lend itself to the talent.
And, a Slayer gets access to the talent as one of their Slayer Talents. Since a Nature Fang Druid can grab the talent at 4th and every 2 levels thereafter, it can be gotten as soon as 4th (although it would come later in the build I'm planning).
If I went this way, I'd likely grab a trait to grant access to Bluff as a class skill (since it's always good to have at least 1 social skill in PFS) so that would be covered.
A fighter can take Silent Spell. It doesn't make it a good option for a straight Fighter.
Likewise, Hunter's Howl isn't a great spell for a 1st level Druid.
Agreed on both points. The Fighter has that option. But a Wolf Domain Druid does not have an option.
A Druid can't take Hunter's Howl at Level 1, or any level (as it's a Ranger spell), unless the Druid takes the Wolf Domain. At which point it's mandatory.
And can't be used to good effect until Level 2. Hence my original request for clarification.
Now, the domain does get a 5th level spell in a 3rd level spell slot, so maybe that's the trade-off. Still, the wolf domain spell for a level 1 druid is useless which seems to be a design oversight.
Regardless, my question is answered and appreciate the help.
True, but even a positive modifier in Diplomacy or another Social skill comes in handy in PFS even with the negative CHA.
Not sure if I even need Stealth as a class skill - certainly nice, but with the Tengu's inherent bonus, that might be good enough if I put a point in every level, freeing up a trait for either Reactionary or a Social skill.
Well, still some time to figure it out - one more scenario then I can respec....still might abandon that Heirloom Weapon and Toughness and go for an EWP Reach Weapon.
Gotta say....played a couple of scenarios with this guy today and it was F-U-N!
Missed the bit about the martial weapon, so will need to change that when I hit Level 2 and can respec.
Wish I could find a way to get a social skill as a class skill, and will probably memorize Hydraulic Push for future scenarios as there are just too many times it would be good to push enemies out of tight spaces to make room for the party to enter the room.
Not sure if I'm going with Bardiche or Lucerne Hammer....the Hammer does more damage on average and can be B or P damage, but the Bardiche has a +2 against Sunder attempts. Hopefully a DM wouldn't try to Sunder a weapon...that would be kind of a d*** move for PFS, but I suppose it could happen. Would probably just re-train Toughness into EWP if that happened as an alternative.
Actually, this reach thing makes me re-think the race. Yeah, Natural Attacks with Sneak Attacks is nice, but maybe something like a Nagaji with Strength modifier and a Natural AC....I dunno. Hard to say until get up in levels.
Suppose it is nice to have options (reach and natural attacks and spells....), so maybe I'll just keep it the way it is.
Really appreciate everyone's help. Still open to suggestions for later level feats/talents....
Crocodile Domain sounds fun, but I think I'll stick with Wolf for the reasons you mentioned.
Bummer thing about the Wolf Domain is the Level 1 Domain spell is useless (in Combat, anyway) until Level 2, unless I'm reading it wrong - Discussion Link Here. But after that it improves and 1-4 spells are solid.
Can't increase DEX to 16 by dumping CHA to 7 - puts me at 21 points. Would need to put INT to 9 and don't like more than 1 negative stat if I can avoid it.
The Heirloom Weapon is growing on me, and I'm thinking once I reach a certain level the Long Spear wouldn't be used so much, freeing me up for Toughness at Level 1 (10 HP at Level 1 sounds really low for a melee character!) And, I think I could pay 360 gp after 1st adventure to have Masterwork Transformation cast on it, correct?
Alright, here's a revised build:
Race - Tengu, with Alternate Racial Traits Claw Attack and Glide
Class - Druid, Nature Fang Archetype, Wolf Domain
Trait 1 - Highlander (grants Stealth as class skill)
Trait 2 - Heirloom Weapon - Longspear
S - 16 (+1 at 4 and 8)
D - 14
C - 12
I - 12
W - 16
Ch - 7
Feats
1 - Improved Trip
1 - Toughness
2 - n/a
3 - Combat Reflexes
4 - Weapon Focus - Claws
5 - Power Attack (might be fun to swap this with Power Attack as Power Attack seems more useful with 4 BAB and 18 STR)
6 - Eldritch Claws
7 - Vicious Stomp
8 - Slayer Talent - Improved Initiative (better late than never!)
9 - Lunge
10 - Rending Claws or ????
11 - ????
Yeah, I think it's a great Ranger 1 spell as the Ranger has Favored Enemies and it lasts for 4 rounds when it's available to a Ranger.
For a Druid with the Wolf Domain, there's no Favored Enemy (at least for the Nature Fang archetype) and it only lasts 1 round, so it's in-combat use is nil until Level 2 as, by the time the next round rolls around and you can attack the enemy affected, the spell has worn off. And, since it's a Domain spell, it has to be memorized and can't be spontaneously cast.
Which is unfortunate unless I'm misinterpreting it.
Hunter's Howl is a Level 1 spell for the Wolf Domain, so a Druid could cast at Level 1.
However, in reading the description, I don't believe it would be of any use to a Level 1 Druid (in Combat) as the duration would expire before the next round of combat.
Druid would need to be Level 2, so she'd have 1 round to use the bonuses.
Spell Description below.
Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, that's a bummer....makes me re-think this domain...
Spell Description:
EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Area 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance none
DESCRIPTION
With a single primal howl, you strike fear in your opponents. Until the end of the spell's duration, you treat those affected by it as if they were your favored enemy, gaining a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them, and a +2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against them. If an affected creature is already one of your favored enemies, it is shaken instead. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Given some of the advice and discussion, here's what I'm thinking. Still not sure on a couple of Feats/Talents....open to suggestions!
Race - Tengu, with Alternate Racial Traits Claw Attack and Glide
Class - Druid, Nature Fang Archetype, Wolf Domain
Trait 1 - Highlander (grants Stealth as class skill)
Trait 2 - Focused Mind
S - 16 (+1 at 4 and 8)
D - 14
C - 12
I - 10
W - 16
Ch - 8
Feats
1 - Improved Trip
1 - Simple Weapon Proficiency (gives use of Longspear and Crossbow for ranged if necessary)
2 - n/a
3 - Combat Reflexes
4 - Weapon Focus - Claws
5 - Power Attack
6 - Eldritch Claws
7 - Toughness
8 - Slayer Talent (Fast Stealth maybe....or a Combat Feat or.....?)
9 - Lunge
10 - Rending Claws or other Slayer Talent
11 - ????
Tactics - Spells/Longspear/Ranged when needed at levels 1-3. When Sneak Attack comes online, use full attack/flanking with natural weapons.
Thoughts - Would be good to fit Improved Initiative somewhere sooner but can't see it until 8 at the earliest. Greater Trips and/or Vicious Stomp would be fun, but both require an additional feat (Combat Expertise for the former and IUS for the latter) so wouldn't see this come online until 11. Is Quicken Spell worth it at 11? Might be OK to swap Power Attack and Toughness to get more HP earlier as Power Attack will be more useful with higher BAB and Strength (maybe?)
Thanks, Imbicatus. Makes a lot of sense - have learned a lot with this thread!
So, Alex, why the strong advice against a dip? Only missing out on the 6th level Druid Spell as far as I can tell. And with only 1 at that level, seems like a fair trade off.
Heirloom Trait - OK. Why is that a risky proposition?
Second question - how come the talons don't become secondary attacks? Feet, hands, and mouth are always primary? Or, if it doesn't state that it's secondary, it always defaults to primary? I've always wondered this....
There is no late game where bite/claw/claw isn't fantastic by itself. It is great through 10 BAB...which is level 14 for this class. There would be more room for argument if this full full BAB (where things start tipping after level 10)... but again, this is not that.
And I pointed out single magic item that lets you get two more primary natural attack, removing all need for all this TWF and mixing natural/unarmed stuff. With 5 primary natural attacks, I am not sure there is ever a real need for the unarmed shenannigans.
Yeah, I'm abandoning those shenanigans - think we posted at same time. :-)
Read that Eagle totem - how would he have 2 talons and 2 claws? Or does it really matter....hahaha. It's magic! But, seriously, those 2 would be primary, eh? That's pretty awesome. If I got that Helm of the Mammoth Lord with that, would it make it 6 Natural Attacks? That seems ridiculous, if awesome. :-)
Also picking up trait to give Sneak as a class skill as well as the trait that gives +2 to concentration checks as I could be casting in Combat, although not sure if Combat Casting Feat is worth it....
A lot of great suggestions – appreciate everyone’s feedback. Some random thoughts and questions:
-Will probably go full Druid levels and not bother with Horizon Walker. Sounds fun, but not enough levels in PFS to justify.
-Thought about animal companion but like the idea of Wolf Domain for level 1-4 spells and level 8 ability, plus I have a backstory around it. Plus I like the simplicity of one character to manage (I’m an old AD&D guy but still kind of new to Pathfinder and PFS)
-I kind of like the idea of TWF with claws as well as Weapon Finesse / Agile Amulet with this but have some questions:
-Does it say in the rules that Unarmed Strike can be Kicks such as Imbicatus suggests? Wasn’t aware of that…I know it works that way for a Brawler, but didn’t know the IUS feat worked that way
-And yes, I can take Multiattack at Level 10 per the Nature Fang abilities. Does Multiattack then make the “secondary” natural attacks a -2 rather than a -5 if I used them in conjunction with TWF? So it would look like: -2 (Kick)/-2 (Kick)/-2 (Claw)/-2 (Claw)/-2 (Claw) as opposed to -2 (Kick)/-2 (Kick)/-5 (Claw)/-5 (Claw)/-5 (Bite)? Given that, would it be better to wait and take TWF at Level 9? Maybe I need help understanding how Multiattack works?
-Feral Combat Training isn’t needed now, but Improved Unarmed Strike is, right?
-I was going to carry a 2-handed weapon (Scythe probably) to help with DR – if I go this TWF/Natural Attack route, what could assist with that? Pummeling Style maybe?
-Brawling Armor would no longer work, yes? At least not for Natural Attacks (although it would work for Unarmed Strikes).
Have been wanting to build a Natural Attack character for awhile now and stumbled upon the Nature Fang archetype. Sounds fun - here's what I have so far.
Looking for input on feats, traits, and slayer talents.. Haven't dumped stats (i.e. CHA) but doing so would help either CON or WIS most likely. Open to ideas.
Thought about going Horizon Walker (Astral Plain terrain) after level 8, but that would keep me out of level 5 and 6 druid spells. As well as Swift Studied Target and Level 10 Slayer Talent. Wouldn't go with Endurance unless I was doing this.
Anywho, figured he could use spells, trip, and some attacking up until 4, then it would be about Sneak Attacks to get 1d3+1d6+3 twice and then again with bite on a full attack. I know the Crocodile Domain would give additional Sneak Attack, but I don't have that book.
Race - Tengu with Alternate Racial Traits Claw Attack and Glide
Class - Druid, Nature Fang with Wolf Domain
Trait 1 -
Trait 2 -
S - 16
D - 14
C - 12
I - 10
W - 15 (16 at 4)
Ch - 10
Have a character for PFS - I imagine him as a mortician, playing around with dead bodies to study their secrets. As a former soldier for Urgathoa (now reformed and on the side of good), he still has some old habits and fascinations he can't let go.
Anywho, I'm soliciting ideas from the board for Craft skills that tie into this (he's a Fighter/Magic-User so need Craft rather than Profession for the Day Job rolls).
So far I have:
Alchemy (embalming fluids, etc.)
Tanner
Sewing
Taxidermy (not sure if this would count as a craft, but it fits)
What else?
Also would want something that would come into play every once in awhile in the scenario other than the Day Job Roll.
Is Defender of the Society, out of Pathfinder Chronicles, Legal for PFS?
In reading the Additional Resource text, it's not specifically called out, but I'd think that it's no longer legal.
Thanks for your help!
Additional Resources Text:
As of 3/7/11, the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting has been replaced by the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide. Equipment, feats, and prestige classes already in play remain legal, but no further equipment may be purchased from this book, nor may a character take a feat or the first level in a prestige class from this source when gaining a new level. Any rules element which has been updated in the Inner Sea World Guide (as denoted with an asterisk below) MUST use the version in the World Guide. If the updated version of a feat has prerequisites you no longer meet, you may ignore those prerequisites.
Equipment: wayfinder, all weapons on page 209, all armor on page 211 (except the armored kilt), all gear on page 213*; Feats: Aldori Dueling Master*, Altitude Affinity*, Andoren Falconry*, Arcane Vendetta*, Berserker's Cry, Careful Speaker*, Cosmopolitan, Crossbow Mastery, Demon Hunter*, Desperate Battler*, Fey Foundling*, Focused Shot, Godless Healing*, Green Faith Acolyte*, Katheer Scholar, Massed Charge, Molthuni Discipline* (replaced with Focused Discipline), Necromantic Resistance, Parting Shot, Rugged, Sniper Shot, Stoic*, Storm-Lashed*, Teleport Sense, Twisted Flesh, Warped Mind, Veiled Vileness, Vermin Heart, and Wand Dancer*; Prestige Classes: Low Templar*, Shackles Pirate
How do touch spells work when the caster is wielding a 2-handed weapon?
For example, if I’m a Wizard with a Quarterstaff for a bonded item, and I want to cast Shocking Grasp, is it assumed that the quarterstaff is in my other hand when I cast and there are no penalties needed to deliver the touch spell?
I ask because I’m working on an Eldritch Knight build for Core PFS. I’m picturing him decked out in Full Plate wielding a Great Sword. Maybe not optimal but I love the image. Anyways, I want to be able to cast Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, and maybe some other touch spells from time to time and want to ensure it’s feasible within the rules, especially since it’s PFS.
It's interesting because, despite the power-level of the feat, I can read and interpret it both ways and, after reading the responses, still am not sure if the effect, whether that's a daze or an entangle, happen on the initial round the spell causes damage and ONLY the initial round, OR:
If the spell causes damage for, let's say, two rounds, then does that present a new opportunity for the effect to happen?
The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
Dazing spell states:
Quote:
You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.
How do these work with a spell like Acid Arrow where the spells deals 2d4 damage every round, depending on the level of the caster?
Would it extend the time of entanglement for the Rime Spell? So, if the damage was over two rounds, would the enemy be entangled for 3 rounds? Or just 2?
Same question with Daze - would it require a save every round that damage occurs or be dazed for two rounds?
Your very eloquent discourse is precisely why I posted the question in the first place!
I play in PFS so I always like to make sure the rule interpretation is barrel-tight.
I'm guessing there could be GM table variation if I tried to pull off the build in mind with an Elemental bloodline. Not so with the Marid (ha, just noticed I misspelled it in the subject line) bloodline - it clearly states the descriptor changes.
Wish that were so with Elemental as there are things I really like about that one!
Elemental Bloodline has the following wording for Bloodline Arcana:
Quote:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.
Marid has the following wording:
Quote:
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to cold. This also changes the spell’s descriptors to match this energy type.
Emphasis mine.
So, does the Bloodline Aracana for Elemental change the descriptor as well? It doesn't explicitly state that it does, hence my question.
I ask because I'm building a sorcerer around the Rime Spell feat which states:
Quote:
Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor.
So if Elemental doesn't change the descriptor, then going that route wouldn't allow me to use Rime Spell with those spells which go "cold", so to speak.
Ya, I had the level wrong (thought it was 1st not 2nd) on my initial calculations.
Right...stacking does make it broken.
bob bob bob wrote:
Better would be using a bloodline that lets you change the element (most specify they also change the descriptor) or using a better spell. Icicle Dagger is a nice one to metamagic up with Rime. Frost Fall, as someone else mentioned, is even better. Adds staggered to the mix, hits longer than acid arrow, same level, natively cold.
Really good ideas here - thanks! Going to check out that Frost Fall for sure!
The goal of keeping the spell at it's initial level or maybe 1 higher makes a lot of sense, too. That's a good thing to keep in mind as I continue to work on some other combinations.
Been studying up on metamagic feats in advance of a sorcerer build I'm putting together.
Please tell me if I've got this right:
Acid Arrow with Magical Lineage - Cast as a 5th level spell due to the following feats:
Elemental (change to cold)
Extend
Rime
Sickening
Would this mean, if casting it at 9th Level, that it would:
Damage the target for 6 rounds (no save)
Entangle the target for 6 rounds (no save)
Cause the target to be sickened for 6 rounds unless it made a Fortitude save every round
Assuming it would, then would that even be worth it? Seems pretty good to me...
I've been trying to put together some good combinations together beyond some of the standbys (toppling mm, dazing fireball) and also trying to select metamagic feats that could come in handy for other spells.
Would probably need to take other cold-based spells to make Rime worth it, but as long as there's a blast spell for every level, Sickening seems solid.
It would be for PFS, so that's a consideration as well.
Nice to know all that spell DC stuff stacks. Wow. Granted, it's a small slice of the usable spells and, as I'm learning, a sorcerer is all about versatility, but it sure seems like there's a lot of power in lesser geas, especially with that DC:
Hit your sword against the stone until it's in 100 pieces
Count X of Y (grains of sand in a beach, stars in the sky, drops of water in that lake
I'm sure there are more creative ones than I'm thinking of.
If the level weren't so high, might be good for Magical Lineage/Quicken...as it is that would be 6th, I believe. Might be worth it, although it wouldn't get much play in PFS.
Yeah, I did some researching after reading your post and that's a bummer that M. Knack doesn't work as I thought it might. There's really nothing that would do so, so it always be at that -2 level.
Yeah, could only use that x6/day (7 at level 8), but would still have a CMB of 4 at level 3 which is the same as it would be normally but there's a bit of distance. But I could get that same effect with the whip now that I'm thinking about.
Humph.
Well, shoot. Have been trying to incorporate some eldritch heritage stuff into builds where there is some synergy (which I guess is Oracle, Bard, Ninja, and some Cavalier...probably some other classes where CHA is a factor that I'm not thinking of).
Might have to go back to the drawing board on this one....but I do like the idea of a half-orc falchion swinging bard!
So, I’ve been reading Treantmonk’s Bard Guide and was intrigued by the Controller Bard. Have read some of the ensuing threads since the guide was built and have put together a couple of my own versions for PFS. Optimal…no. But I think both could be fun.
I know Maestro for Eldritch Hertitage is more appropriate, but I have a couple of backstories where these builds make sense. Something along the lines of the Hero growing up among feral jungle tribes and coming forth into civilization to champion the rights of animals and indigenous species...
Would love some feedback!
Build #1
Class – Bard – all 11 levels
Race - Half-Orc, Beastmaster alternate racial trait
Trait 1 - Magical Knack, Sorcerer (to keep the eldritch heritage ability in-line with class level)
Trait 2 – Open to suggestions
This build would have proficiency in Net so there are options to debuff with Net or trip/disarm/steal with Verdant Eldritch Heritage. Could Intimidate single opponents. Spells and Bard Stuff and then skirmishing with Falchion when all else failed.
Build #2
Class – Brawler (Exemplar) 1 then Bard 10
Race - Half-Elf
Trait 1 - Magical Knack, Sorcerer (to keep the eldritch heritage ability in-line with class level)
Trait 2 – Reactionary
This build loses out on Net proficiency, but given the touch AC and the added BAB with a level in Brawler could use it with no proficiency at it wouldn't totally flop. Or flex into proficiency if scoring a hit was vitally needed. Can flex into a variety of feats depending on what the situation needed: better chances to trip/disarm/steal, dazzling display, some other Combat Maneuvers once Power Attack is obtained. No Falchion, but the Longsword is still a good weapon for a skirmisher. Not sure if I like the 11th level feat…anything better? The Exemplar ability is a nice complement to other bard abilities. Lose out on some bonuses for no 11th Level in Bard, but not losing out on any new additions.
What’s tough is I like both these builds for different reasons!
Would love to hear your thoughts and, as always, appreciate the feedback of the forums!
Let's say I'm playing a 9th level kitsune sorcerer with the maestro bloodline. 20 charisma. I've taken the kitsune FC Bonus every level as well as spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus enchantment.
Lesser geas is a spell with the enchantment, verbal only, and language dependent notations.
What is the DC of this spell?
Is it a 24? In other words, doed every modifier stack?
Level +4
Kitsune magic +1 to all enchantment spells
Kitsune FC Bonus +2
Maestro arcana +1 (treats verbal only as 1 level higher)
Maestro bloodline power +1 (+1 to language dependent spells)
Charisma +5
Base +10
So no need to sell stuff back for half-price? Just subtract the cost for single-use items that were purchased/used then buy away as if that's your starting gold?
That seems like a pretty sweet deal... Wish I had known that out for my first character!
"You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special
boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to
the character once you retrain as long as the character
meets the criteria above."
But here's my question:
Let's say I'm ready to go to Level 2. I've accumulated a total of 505+538+509 in my first 3 adventures for a total of 1552. Including starting gold of 150 that's 1702.
Do I get to "rebuy" all of my equipment? In other words, would I have a total of 1702 GP to spend on the 2nd level character, or would it be whatever gold is left as a result of the spending I've gone through in my first 3 levels?
Seems like the latter to me is more realistic, but it does say "all treasure" so the former gives more gold to spend in the 2nd Level rebuild (since you wouldn't have to sell back things for half-price).
I've poked around the threads for an answer but was unable to find anything specific addressing this query, so I appreciate the help!
Ah, a splat book. Hmmm...don't tend to use those as I only play PFS and only own the main books. Still, sounds like a fun feat - thanks for sharing the link!
I appreciate all the advice - giving me a lot to think about.
Couple of questions:
MM Monk - One of the things in the description that confuses me is this:
From SRD wrote:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
So, if I'm only taking 1 level of Monk, then is the BAB for the bonus maneuver always stuck at 1? That's one thing that turned me off the monk in the first place. I know the forums suggest a dip in MM Monk for this type of build, but that bit is confusing.
Captain Morgan wrote:
A new feat just came out called Dirty Fighting. You are going to want that instead of combat expertise. It's thr nicest thing martials have gotten in a while. :)
Do you have a link or a description of the feat? Don't see it on the SRD.
I keep playing with this build! :-) So fun! Been reading up on Disarm and that seems like a good tactic, too, maybe better (or maybe just different) than Dirty Trick. Thinking about throwing in Spiked Chain and adding the Disarm Feats...something like this:
Thanks, Jodokai - I was actually working on another build for Daring Champion that used Bodyguard and it sort of morphed into this one.
Good stuff, OldRolero! Yes, definitely think I'm going a 4th level of Rogue, but it might look more like Fighter/Rogue/Fighter/Rogue x3/Fighterx5. This evens out the feat progression and I am digging the debilitating effects as well.
Part of me wonders if the build is just trying to do too much...maybe I should take something out? I don't know. I put together a straight Lore Warden build as well but dang if the Rogue levels don't look fun. Makes me want to build a straight Unchained Rogue...maybe work Dirty Trick in there...
Rogue 4 sounds like it might be a good idea - still get a feat and the BAB plus the debuffing goodies. At a glance, it might even out some of the feat progression as well. Also still gets the Level 7 Lore Warden stuff, albeit at Level 11, but still. Might definitely go this route.
Crossbow doesn't work as it takes out the buffing part of the build (Bodyguard during opponent round).
Piranha Strike is intriguing - will look into this!
Would prefer not to drop STR or CHA, but might be worth it for an extra HP/level and +1 to Fort Save. Have to think on it.
Taking Rogue at 2 would solve for the lack in To Hit bonuses but it also delays the Dirty Trick stuff which is part of the build. Since this is PFS, I could take Weapon Finesse at 1 which would give some Combat viability, then respec at 2 so and put Agile Maneuvers back at 1 and Improved Dirty Trick at 2. Then take 2-Weapon at 3 when Finesse comes on board due to Rogue. hmmmm.....
Any other thoughts/suggestions from the board? What about Knife Master? The thing I like about Knife Master is not only does it play in with concept, but it fits the build:
During the opponents turn, he's Aiding Another and adding +4 to their AC
During his turn, if he can sneak attack, he does so, getting 1d8 Sneak Attack and, after Rogue 4, a debuff
When he can't Sneak Attack, he's pulling a Dirty Trick to debuff. Once he gets Quick Dirty Trick, then he can Blind then Sneak Attack.
Would love some critique on this build. It is for PFS.
Have been mulling over a couple of ideas - one is utilizing Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard to help buff companions and a Fighter type that specializes in Dirty Tricks to help debuff opponents. And want him to have some ability to damage as well. So, I thought, why not make him a Fighter and combine the two?
As I researched Dirty Trick builds, came across some folks combining it with rogue. That intrigued me. Then, I thought, why not the Unchained Rogue?
Also, saw a lot of mention of a dip in Monk Maneuver Master. That's not of interest to me, so it's not included.
However, for what I have built, would love some critique and comments! It's my first shot at multi-classing, so I want to ensure everything is legal. More I think about it, the more fun it sounds to play.
Thanks as always!
Concept:
Orphaned during a goblin raid, Meric was taken in by an elder Halfling and raised by the Tufftoe Halfling Clan - a den of tight-nit thieves and assassins. While he didn't take to all of their larcenous habits, they instilled within him a deep sense of loyalty and honor, but only when it comes to his kin. In battle, he's industrious and quick, protecting his companions from harm, but isn't afraid to play cheap to gain an advantage.
Build:
Name - Meric Tufftoe
Race - Human
Traits - Adopted (Halfling - Helpful), Indomitable Faith (worship of Norgorber)
S - 10
D - 18 (improve Dex at 4 and 8)
C - 14
I - 13 (need this for dirty trick feats and who doesn't love more skill points)
W - 12 (because will saves suck)
Ch - 10 (because I try not to dump)
-Low HP for front-line (maybe take toughness or dump CHA for more CON?)
-Will struggle to hit anything until Level 3 unless I take Rogue at 1st Level (if I take Rogue at 1st will lose out on 2 hit points...)
-Adding the 3 Levels of Rogue delays the Dirty Trick portion of the build by a couple of levels, but that might still be OK because he'll be doing fair damage and protecting his allies which is part of concept
-Was considering the Knife Master archetype and going with Daggers or Kukris...any thoughts on that?
-Not sure about Pin Down and Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feats...anything better? Maybe Iron Will and Improved Iron Will?
Sorry to necro this, but wanted to let everyone know who responded that you guys gave me some good ideas!
It's funny - I thought I settled on the Investigator (Spiritualist) as the SLAs seemed to pair nicely with the Elf - Envoy alternate racial trait that I selected (from a role-playing aspect, attributing these abilities to spirits that have been talking to the character since he was a child which spurred him to explore the world) and I was going to build up his UMD score as well by selecting the Pragmatic Activator trait so all this extra intelligence (gave him 14) can go to good use. Plus, being able to roll and additional 1d6 for any trained knowledge/linguistic/spellcraft skill roll is pretty cool. With 1 point in any of these, I'm getting a plus 9-15 for every roll.
Had his first spin in PFS on Saturday and seemed to do OK - was nice to be able to roll a knowledge roll at any time.
Then I spotted the suggestion for Lore Warden. I'd have to take the character in a different direction...he wouldn't be able to take Pragmatic Activator (since he wouldn't have UMD) so if I wanted him to have UMD, it would have to be through Dangerously Curious which would mean no attribute bonus (unless I went Mysterious Stranger and I don't want to do that). I'd be trading some of the SLA of the Spiritualist and the additional 1d6 to those rolls for a little more stead combat advancement....decisions decisions!
Anyways, know I'm rambling a bit - just wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions and give some additional thoughts.
I have another 2 scenarios before I have to make up my mind for good. Both routes (Investigator - Spiritualist and Lore Warden) sound fun, and maybe it wouldn't be too bad to go Lore Warden and take Dangerously Curious for the UMD skill....hmmmmmmmmmm......
