Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest the fact that you are in a game where you continually kill things including human NPCs all the time and it is not evil until you kill a character played by a human rather than a computer is a bit illogical.
Killing a computer controlled bandit who lorewise does not resurrect is not evil. Killing a player controlled bandit who does resurrect is evil.
There is a lack of logic here.
- Committing acts that are outright evil, like raising undead, gets you the Heinous flag and decreases your Good vs. Evil rating.
- Killing random NPCs, like farmers or merchants, reduces your Good vs. Evil.
- Attacking players who are not Hostile reduces your Good vs. Evil by a small but fixed amount (essentially, if you lose Rep, you also become more Evil).
As far I understand it, those bandits aren't considered friendly NPCs. Maybe if they implement NPC "farmers and merchants," we might actually have friendly NPCs to protect. A NPC trade caravan between Canis Castrum and another settlement for example! At the bare minimum, Evil acts could just be in-game rituals to Lamashtu for Evil bling. The Chaos and Law axis is a bit more interesting, because it is about player defined settlement permissions (laws). Good and Evil is a bit Jedi and Sith.
At the moment though, killing innocent, speechless NPC bandits could be interpreted as evil. We don't know their motivations for banditry. They could have pixelated children to feed.
I'm still fairly sure that it is all about the whole "lion keeps trying to eat my face" thing.
Speciesist! :-)
You should be honored to be part of the food chain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd just like to chime in that another of the reasons we picked to be tucked away in our corner is so that we wouldn't have to deal with as many newbies gathering our stuff and wandering into our area without knowing what's what. Most people that make it down to EA territory know that they are in EA territory. It was a meaningful choice that we made a long time ago to sacrifice a little bit of recruiting advantages in order to be able to enforce a policy like this one with minimum grief.
Yes we have a plan, and yes we still like our plan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone seems to have gotten off on a tangent about alignment.
This is about the River Kingdoms, if we were else where in the world things would be different. In the River Kingdoms alignments get perverted more than any other place, because above all else is the River Freedoms.
The ideological backbone of the Riverfolk, frequently invoked and occasionally trampled on, are the Six River Freedoms. Interpretations abound, these six freedoms are what holds the Riverfolk together in what would seem, to outsiders at least, a lawless society. A quick wit will serve you well when invoking one of these freedoms, as the slightly misinterpretation can leave you running from a mob, or worse.
#1 “Say what you will, I live free.” - Considered free speech, but watch out what you say, this isn’t the same as freedom from consequences of speech.
#2 “Oathbreakers Die.” - Trust is paramount, and in a land of betrayal an oath means everything.
#3 “Walk any road, float any river.” - This freedom prevents lords from blocking land and water travel, or charging tolls for passing.
#4 “Courts are for Kings.” - All must obey a given kingdom’s laws, whether a visitor is a commoner or a neighboring king, all are subject to a lord’s law within his own territory
#5 “Slavery is an Abomination.” - Everyone is free in the River Kingdoms, even runaway slaves, once within the Kingdoms they are a slave no more.
#6 “You have what you hold.” - This draws a heavy distinction between robbery and mere stealing, taking something by force is considered acceptable, even respected.
These laws are concrete, even among the most chaotic members of the River Kingdoms. These laws create the foundation of our existence, and as the map expands to the SE, which it will eventually, we will see that these laws are enforced more and more (by NPCs at the least). It doesn't matter if you are LE or NG, if you don't abide by these rules, then you will face repercussions in a Role Play sense, from the inhabitants of the land. In the River Kingdoms one mans villian is another's hero, and sometimes they just happen to fall into the NG/CG/N alignments.
I reiterate, alignment is perverted in the River Kingdoms, it is skewed, and we best get used to that fact. The other people around us (NPCs), and those that call themselves natives of the area are all going to abide by these rules, and personally if you are role playing, then at the very least these rules should come into play for your character (whether you are for or against them based on your own background).
If you look at the law of the land, one invoked on a daily basis, EBA does:
1) Not oppose or hinder free speech.
2) Not tolerate Oathbreakers, although we have talked about mitigating circumstances.
3) Not oppose or hinder travel.
4) enforce our laws, and expect others to enforce theirs. Depending on the character (and especially our diplomats) will adhere to laws that the EBA recognizes as sovereign nations.
5) enforce non-slavery policy. Our patron god, so to speak, is Milani, and this helps us to absolutely reinforce a no slavery law, freedom is important to a lot of EBA membership.
6) This law can be considered on the micro and macro levels. There is a lot of interpretation of this particular law in the geo-political scale within the River Kingdoms. I preface this one, because we believe in standing up for whats yours, or at least what you hold, a lot of us also support stand and deliver. I don't mean this at a mechanical level, but in the sense of the role play (I don't want to speculate on the mechanical level). We are of course going to not tolerate banditry within what we consider our territory.
There are a lot of ways you can interpret alignment right now, but these laws are the only real laws we have. Not killing people on sight, welcoming people to our territory (the LE guys kill just about everyone), and being open to allow people, through permission, to "pick flowers, make tents, and enforce their justice on local bandits(escalate)" I believe takes us steps towards being Neutral and Good.
Settlements and more appropriately Alliances/Nations have to work within one step of their alignments. NG dips into LG, N, and CG, if you are looking at the larger level you can include LN, CN, and NE into that grouping. I think its very clear we aren't acting LE or CE, there are people in this game who have already defined, within the game mechanics-roleplaying sphere, what those play styles mean to them and how they interact with the server.
I think the issues that some of you have, those that aren't trolling, will be defined through game mechanics, and you can better believe that what ever alignment we end up (NG or N most likely for our Nation) we are going to enforce that alignment. This game goes beyond what some of you are attempting to layer onto the EBA, we have to manage in game alignment vs real life play styles vs fun vs political endeavors.
We took the initiative to define what we believe is ours, and we took the time to let you all know, because it is in the interest of good manners and etiquette to make sure you know our laws. If we we were even remotely evil we would have established our laws, our borders, and anything else we deem appropriate, then not giving you any warning killed you on sight. You would have been breaking laws that you never knew existed and no one took the time to actually put together and inform you, that would be evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to disagree a little concerning the absolute nature of the River Kingdom Freedoms and Alignment.
First, alignment is universal everywhere in Golarion. What Asmodeus, the current personification of LE approves of, he will approve of everywhere.
The River Kingdom Freedoms on the otherhand, might be univerally known in the River Kingdoms, but are interpreted by each as seen fit. Similarly, sometimes the decision is made to ignore one (or more) all together...as evidence shows.
What I think we cannot know, is what alignment will end up meaning in PFO. The devs, as creators of our version of Golarion, might infuse the pantheon with variants of judgement than what we would normally expect in a more traditional setting. I enjoy alignment banter for the sake of the philosophical argument. However, what the alignments will really end up being or meaning, we must wait and see.
At this time, I really do not see what staking out our territory and our plan for defending it have anything to do with an alignment system we can not yet know.
I can say I intend to be TN...but what I really intend to do is play how I find it fun, and accept whatever alignment PFO makes that be. If I am forced to find a new team to play with because of this, well then I welcome the challenge and the adventure of making new friends. Similarly, we have stated our plan, if that plan makes us LG, we will be LG, if it makes us LN, TN, NG or even CE, so be it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is more about the largest settlement asserting that they can have whatever they want. While in many places settlements are mere 3 hexes apart(though 4 is more common), EBA has decided it will claim far more than that. Its claims are four (or more) hexes from its settlements and yet one from another (e.g. Kindleburn) and the whole of the SE corner up to 7 hexes form any member settlement.
There are many potential settlement sites in claimed area. If this assertion goes forward, by time settlement founding is enabled, those new settlements will be in the already crowded portions, not in the open SE corner.
This is not being done because it is right and proper, but because TEO has a lot of weight to throw around. THis is not about what is in the EBA neighborhood, but is a blatant land grab. If EBA would stick to 2 or 3 hexes beyond its settlements, that would be fair. This is just the BIG DOG marking his territory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... a blatant land grab.
The blatant land grab occurred before the Land Rush when The Empyrean Order, Pax Aeternum, and The Seventh Veil were each, based on their performance in the Kickstarter Land Rush Leaderboard, allowed to pick three options for their Settlements before any other guilds were allowed to participate. The Empyrean Order and The Seventh Veil coordinated and were lucky enough to both get our fist choices. At that point, we hoped to be able to lay claim to a significant portion of the southeastern corner of the map.
I am extremely pleased that we have been as successful as we have been.
I encourage everyone to come visit Everbloom Alliance territory. We are friendly to strangers and welcome visitors. This thread is not a notification that all trespassers will be shot. It is a notice that we consider this our territory and will take actions to protect it, and the resources it contains, if necessary.
If you'd like to harvest in our territory, please contact us. We'd actually really appreciate the opportunity to establish relations with you and/or your Company/Settlement. We're always eager to include new friends in our outings and farming Tier 2 Escalations with us can be a very profitable experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed, this is a "land grab" however stating such as if it were a negative thing is odd in the context of this game we play. We are in a state of territorial control. Not asserting authority over an area simply means it is free for another to acquire. Given the population of the Everbloom Alliance, the area required to support that number of people is significantly larger than compared to other smaller settlements. Is there some particular area where you feel the territory outlined is inappropriate? We are not annexing settlements, even though some nearby are inactive. We are not claiming NPC settlements, which indeed have a significant amount of other land around them for use. As with my offer of hearing out anyone with a better approach for enforcing EBA authority in these lands, I'm also open to hearing out any reasonable claim that the land we have designated is in some way inappropriate.
And I echo my friend Nihimon's words--we welcome anyone that wants to work with us proactively on operating in this territory. Early adopters will, indeed, have a significant advantage I think as you will help us form our overall process for accommodating non-alliance members. We look forward to contact with individuals, companies, and even settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Love you guys! Keep it up! Bang those drums! Make sure everyone is watching you and Golgatha fight it out for control of the map.
Meanwhile ... we quietly continue to gather and do PvE and slowly, oh so slowly, expand OUR territory in the NW.
Just waiting for the map expand so we can grab ... er ... settle everything to the West and North of us. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Love you guys! Keep it up! Bang those drums! Make sure everyone is watching you and Golgatha fight it out for control of the map.
Meanwhile ... we quietly continue to gather and do PvE and slowly, oh so slowly, expand OUR territory in the NW.
Just waiting for the map expand so we can grab ... er ... settle everything to the West and North of us. :-)
Exactly. Anybody thinks this is a land grab should check out Stoneroot and its TWENTY towers. There is reason they call this stage of the game the "Land Rush". It's like early America where there is just more land than settlers. Anybody willing to make the trek into the corners of the map can find cheap land.
I am wondering why the Golgothians were not the first to put lines on a map and declare "this land is ours", and instead let the EA take first dibs on a land grab. On another thread the Orc rep is taking it as a joke, instead of taking this seriously and responding accordingly.
I don't speak for any settlement or power bloc, but perhaps the next step would be for Xelias and the Emerald Lodge to just accept that 34.5 hexes per settlement is simply the new standard, and simply draw their map using the EBA's northern border as their southern border and the EBA's western border as their eastern border.
Settlement after settlement can just push their borders North and West claiming 34.5 hexes per settlement.
Such borders would be the path to PEACE, a peace that was lovingly crafted by the GOOD folks of The Everbloom Alliance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The EBA has had those hexes as 'their' land for a long, long time. I'm fairly sure I have an image from the alpha with close to exactly those hexes drawn out, with little colors showing which settlement would get which towers.
Golgotha isn't taking it seriously because we don't much care. They could claim the hexes directly around Golgotha, and we wouldn't care. It isn't going to stop us travelling through, nor do the EBA expect it to. It really had nothing to do with Golgotha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am wondering why the Golgothians were not the first to put lines on a map and declare "this land is ours"Being self-declared Lawful, putting lines on a map would create expectations for them to (appear to) abide by those lines.
Exactly, just seemed like the right LE thing to do. Clearly mark thier territory, state thier intent to hold it and kill any trespassers, account for future "natural growth", and let all players know where the "hot zone" is.
I would also expect them to claim more or less than 36 hexes, as per a reasonable expectation from thier leadership as to what they can claim, take, hold and defend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That would be what a roleplaying LE group might do. While we respect roleplayers, and many of our members are active in that community, we don't much care for it when determining settlement policy. We have nothing to gain by officially declaring an area as ours, at least for now. And so we probably won't do that thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gol Tink,
Understood, however EE5 fixed the resource regeneration bug, and now a hex can be depleted of a resource if strip mined. Is this not of concern to the leadership, and also assist Midnights claim on "her coal hex as per the blessings of our benevolent dictator", if there were in fact territory official claimed by EoX?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly, just seemed like the right LE thing to do. Clearly mark thier territory, state thier intent to hold it and kill any trespassers, account for future "natural growth", and let all players know where the "hot zone" is.I am wondering why the Golgothians were not the first to put lines on a map and declare "this land is ours"Being self-declared Lawful, putting lines on a map would create expectations for them to (appear to) abide by those lines.
I disagree. Lawful Evil may follow the rules, but that doesn't mean they like rules for their own sake: Rules are to be used cleverly from a position of weakness to leverage advantage, and from a position of strength to reinforce that strength. Creating laws that limit oneself (like defining the extent of one's own territory) without giving advantage (they already kill who they want, both inside or outside "their territory", however ambiguously that is defined) would be self-weakening, from a LE perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They could claim the hexes directly around Golgotha, and we wouldn't care.
In a way, we have. And apparently, you don't.
The Seventh Veil has, with very few exceptions, successfully defended our control of Towers in the very heart of your territory for a week. We've brought the PvP that you crave to your doorstep and offered you all the "content" you could ask for. In return, you've completely quit the field, moved your PvP Window to a time where most people are at work, and completely abandoned any attempt to retake your Towers from us.
Our goal was to give you the opportunity to fight folks who were happy to fight you so you didn't have to be "bored" enough to hang out around Keeper's Pass waiting for an opportunity to gank some hapless gatherer. We would fight you "over there" instead of waiting for you to come over here.
Perhaps there's a better use of your time than trying to spin this - and every other announcement we ever make - as somehow finally revealing to the community what hypocrites we are or how irrelevant we are.
Gol Tink,
Understood, however EE5 fixed the resource regeneration bug, and now a hex can be depleted of a resource if strip mined. Is this not of concern to the leadership, and also assist Midnights claim on "her coal hex as per the blessings of our benevolent dictator", if there were in fact territory official claimed by EoX?
Do those quote marks actually denote a quote?
That coal hex gets shared by a LOT of settlements, including the more capable Marchmont residents and The Emerald Lodge.
Often strangers would simply clear out until my bag was full. MY "claim" typically was for about as long as it takes for someone to make a sandwich, if people didn't want to fight me.
Are they working yet, Cal?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Half of this thread is just people talking about Good and Evil in vague terms.
Actually most of it was confounding good with lawful and confounding evil with chaotic.
Which is understandandable as even the core rules and lore books sometimes got that one wrong. Also real world press/hollywood bombard us with a very simplistic black and white (almost gnostic) world view so people tend to believe obeying the law makes you a "good" person, that if its legal its also moral and ethically ok to do it and that actions like union strikes and activist protests are chaotic and therefore evil.
In PFO though the alignment mechanics are only just now being announced so all this talk is basically hearsay and obiter opinion and whilst interesting and fun to debate is not really relevant.
cool, last weekend one of your players said your settlement was bugged, (as were some other settlements). Hopefully the patch made things better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These arguments of what is Lawful, what if Chaotic, what is Good, and what is Evil has been going on since the birth of D&D and will continue to go on for as long as Alignments exists. Every person is going to have their own view point and interpretation.
If this was a Tabletop game, the DM would have the last say on what means what. But with the nature of MMOs, we won't ever get a workable answer for alignments. So the whole Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil argument here is pointless.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I wouldn't say the alignment discussion is entirely pointless, as we will have concrete means of determining alignment association within PFO. What is pointless is trying to bring in any reference or requirement outside those we are given for the game. That type of conversation would be appropriate for, say, some crowdforging discussion on how GW should implement alignments, but for here our only recourse is to do what we have done--operate within the framework given. I think part of our Good alignment is that we are open to feedback from anyone on improving our efforts.
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So, my character spawned in EBA territory. I do not want to join EBA. But now I must either seek permission to gather where I was "born" or leave? How nice of you guys. I do not mind you claiming hexes, but to also claim all the resources as your property truly seems like theft. Theft of both resources and theft of game enjoyment. Let me ask this openly: If I ask for permission will you tax my gathering?
I am still learning this complex game. It is not a given that I will keep playing it. I see your threat of killing me simply for for gathering as a reason not to keep playing. I do not enjoy paying money to be bullied.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, my character spawned in EBA territory. I do not want to join EBA. But now I must either seek permission to gather where I was "born" or leave? How nice of you guys. I do not mind you claiming hexes, but to also claim all the resources as your property truly seems like theft. Theft of both resources and theft of game enjoyment. Let me ask this openly: If I ask for permission will you tax my gathering?
I am still learning this complex game. It is not a given that I will keep playing it. I see your threat of killing me simply for for gathering as a reason not to keep playing. I do not enjoy paying money to be bullied.
I'm not sure how you could have spawned in EBA territory, there are no starter towns in that area. If you're new, I would suggest that if you don't want to join one of the EBA groups, you can head southwest a bit to Riverbank where Pathfinder University is based. They hold classes every day and have lots of very good information for new players.
Just to be clear, it shouldn't be the case where you gather and are instantly jumped and killed. There should be a dialogue where you will be warned, and you can then explain that you're a new player. At that point, most likely you'll get a similar message to the above - you can apply to join one of the groups and we'll help you out as we do any new recruits, or you can also head to Pathfinder University in Riverbank. In general, Phaeros specifically (I can't speak for the other groups) tries to help new players even if they don't join us. But harvesting in EBA territory when not an EBA member is theft, not the other way around. This is because before the last patch (EE5, last Thursday) the resource ratings of the hexes regenerated to full every day, but now they don't, so overharvesting an area can actually be a damaging thing to do and strip mining a hex is a valid cold war tactic that can and will be used in the future.
EDIT: I must have missed your direct question earlier. The answer is that it's pretty much a case by case basis and will depend on the leadership. Being taxed is certainly a possibility. If you like, you can hop on the TSV TeamSpeak to talk about it, or PM me or any of the people on the list in the OP (I'll just be forwarding your request to Decius Brutus or Nihimon Vhane'Sylvan). Either method will get you in touch with the right people and we can work something out.
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You are right. I spawned in Kindleburn. I was thinking you were claiming that too initially, but that is north of your claim. I will check into University in Riverbank. I am sure that is good advise. Thanks for that.
I take strong execution to the idea harvesting is ever theft. You simply do not own the resources. Saying that you do does not make it so. I could make a similar claim, then it would he you guilty of theft in my system, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are right. I spawned in Kindleburn. I was thinking you were claiming that too initially, but that is north of your claim. I will check into University in Riverbank. I am sure that is good advise. Thanks for that.
I take strong execution to the idea harvesting is ever theft. You simply do not own the resources. Saying that you do does not make it so. I could make a similar claim, then it would he you guilty of theft in my system, right?
The EBA is friendly to strangers and welcomes visitors, so please feel free to travel through EBA to get to Riverbank, rather than having to go around. In fact, if you feel that you need an escort to get to Riverbank just let me know.
My current understanding is that we'll eventually have a law system allowing us to establish laws in territory we own via in-game mechanics. Gathering in certain territories is an example of such a possible law. This declaration was, at least from my own perspective, largely about getting people used to the idea of having to know/care about territory and the laws of each territory, considering they will eventually be game mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I take strong execution to the idea harvesting is ever theft. You simply do not own the resources.
You should try telling that to an oil company, see how far that gets you. Or opening a mine without the permission of the govt. Or any such. In geopolitics, unharvested resources are most certainly owned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When we all have laws, and 60-70% of those hexes have been claimed by EBA as holdings, then, IN FACT, we do own those unclaimed resources, BY LAW. You will take a small hit to your reputation every time you harvest in our area, so technically speaking, our laws will have the effect of curtailing people that don't want to lose their alignment.
If I were a betting man, I would say that around 1/3 of the map will be claimed by the time we have laws in the game.
I don't want to sugar coat the situation with anyone, I am actually an outward Realist and an inward Idealist, so, with that being said, feel free to visit us, to get to know our culture, we don't kill on sight (unless you are on a badguy list). We just have to establish and maintain laws, EBA are kind of playing the game with a lot of future mechanics in mind. So far that kind of thinking has gotten us ostracized to some degree, but eventually it will be the norm for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You simply do not own the resources. Saying that you do does not make it so. I could make a similar claim, then it would he you guilty of theft in my system, right?
This not at all outside of the human norm. Look at the claims of Canada, Denmark, Norway, Russia, and the United States, that each owns assorted, overlapping, sections of the Arctic.
Early assertion of control is often the most successful tactic. The EBA, while working to be a safe haven, is little different from any other geo-political group in its need for resources to survive and grow. The fact that they are sufficiently organized to assert a claim is not inherently bad. How they pursue that claim is what matters.
Edit: further, the struggle over resource control will be a core element of the game. One might presume they are simply creating an opportunity for future legitimate conflicts.
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I am reminded of the king in Robin Hood claiming he owns all the deer in the forest.
I understand that in the real world resources are typically owned. And I was unaware that we are getting "laws". That is interesting. In a game where everyone pays the same thing to play I would think that everyone could harvest resources. I guess I have much to learn about this game and where it is heading.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am reminded of the king in Robin Hood claiming he owns all the deer in the forest.
I understand that in the real world resources are typically owned. And I was unaware that we are getting "laws". That is interesting. In a game where everyone pays the same thing to play I would think that everyone could harvest resources. I guess I have much to learn about this game and where it is heading.
It is a territory warfare game and all nations and settlements will be claiming territory and its resources to varying degrees of zealousness. However it is also a sandbox game, which means you can actually play Chaotic Good Robin Hood stealing resources in the forest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess I have much to learn about this game and where it is heading.
Indeed you do, and there are many who will be willing to help you along your way to understanding and enlightment. (Grin)
A good start is by reading the blogs for an overview of the vision/goals/difference of this game compare to Theme Park MMOs, and for an understanding of the "why" of things that I will assure you seem "WTF" at first, until you see the reason for that idea/model.
Be sure to contact the Pathfinder University, they can help you with your early 15-90 days experience, and they give lots of classes, lectures and Q&A. Good people they are. :)
And of course, ask questions here and/or on the GW Forum as needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One blog that talked of laws and crime was Alignment and Reputation. How much of that makes it into the game, and how quickly, remains to be seen.
For clarification, breaking a law will (was to?) flag the character as Criminal; the Criminal would be a legitimate/legal target. It will also shift active alignment a bit towards Chaos.
Settlements that fail to enforce their laws - that is, fail to kill flagged Criminals - will suffer Corruption, an inefficiency in collecting taxes. Reading between the lines, settlements are warned not to pass actual laws that they cannot enforce.
Reputation does not tie to Criminal actions in that blog; Rep is reserved as a penalty mostly for attacking or killing unflagged characters
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am reminded of the king in Robin Hood claiming he owns all the deer in the forest.
I understand that in the real world resources are typically owned. And I was unaware that we are getting "laws". That is interesting. In a game where everyone pays the same thing to play I would think that everyone could harvest resources. I guess I have much to learn about this game and where it is heading.
There is a lot of focus regarding 'what' is happening and not 'why' it is happening. This is not about grabbing territory and exercising control in order to lock other people out.
If you are neutral or friendly, then you can probably obtain harvesting rights with little difficulty. Get in touch with a point of contact to make yourself known and you should be fine.