Dex based magus, slashing grace or dervish dancer?


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Silver Crusade

as the title suggests, is their any real benefit of using one over the other??


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Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace have a tax of Weapon Focus with the weapon you want to use with the feat. Slashing Grace is broken in that you can easily get yourself into using a weapon that you can get Dex-to-Damage with but not Dex-to-Hit (which presumably you also want), including with the Scimitar, so choose carefully. Dervish Dance has a tax of 2 ranks of Perform(Dance) and actually works properly with its chosen weapon (as does Fencing Grace). So it depends upon what weapon you want and what tax you are willing to pay.


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DD requires nothing in off hand, and is flavored as for Saranraens, may allow 2wf with unarmed strikes, some DMs don't allow it with spell combat for some reason, but allows scimitar finesse without a swash dip..

SG works for your pick of slashing 1Hs, but not light, which means whip or aldori barring swash dip, doesn't require empty off hand.

For straight magus, fencing grace with rapiers might be easier, but inspired blade dip is pretty tempting.


Quote:
I like the high crit chance of a scimitar (and I like scimitars, flavorwise) so I'd take dervish dance every time. I suppose in a viking flavor campaign where you are dependent on loot for gear, where there are 93 magic battle axes for every magic scimitar, I might go slashing grace.

Or a campaign where everyone is playing a dwarf. Seen it. Done it. Loved it. Hammers and axes, that's the game!


Inlaa wrote:
Quote:
I like the high crit chance of a scimitar (and I like scimitars, flavorwise) so I'd take dervish dance every time. I suppose in a viking flavor campaign where you are dependent on loot for gear, where there are 93 magic battle axes for every magic scimitar, I might go slashing grace.
Or a campaign where everyone is playing a dwarf. Seen it. Done it. Loved it. Hammers and axes, that's the game!

HA! I deleted my post when I realized I was adding nothing to what UAE and CoV had said. And then you quoted me. And I want to play an all-dwarf campaign, too.

Grand Lodge

I would personally go for Slashing Grace over the other 2 options (rapier/fencing grace, scimitar/dervish dance)

But that is if you are going Kensai and can pick up one of the 2 Finesseable Slashing weapons there (whip and aldori dueling sword). Both are Exotic weapons, so Kensai or Half Elf for Magus. Kensai gives you the weapon focus free, feat at 1st would be Weapon Finesse, at 3rd you get Dex to damage via Slashing Grace.

Of course, a rapier using Human Kensai Magus can have the 18-20 range and Dex to damage starting at 1st. Any magus can with a rapier, as long as the dip 1 level of Inspired Blade Swash.


Slashing/Fencing grace might be better if you were planning to grab a shield.

While the Magus does not have shield proficiency, and he experiences Arcane spell failure from shields... that hardly matters if you grab a Mithral Buckler. Those have 0 ACP and 0% spell failure. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

So the ability to just grab +1 to +6 more AC is rather tempting. It doesn't appear to interfere with your spell casting, and you aren't going to use your offhand for 2 handing... overall, it seems like something to consider.

Silver Crusade

what is the forums opinion on a bladebound kensai? is the kensai worth the spellcasting and (free no spell failure for armor) things?


lemeres wrote:

Slashing/Fencing grace might be better if you were planning to grab a shield.

While the Magus does not have shield proficiency, and he experiences Arcane spell failure from shields... that hardly matters if you grab a Mithral Buckler. Those have 0 ACP and 0% spell failure. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

So the ability to just grab +1 to +6 more AC is rather tempting. It doesn't appear to interfere with your spell casting, and you aren't going to use your offhand for 2 handing... overall, it seems like something to consider.

Spell combat is still going to require you have one hand free... So no shield.

It really depends on your build. If your intending to pick up weapon focus anyway, might as well do slashing grace. Personally though I prefer Dervish Dance, because I'd rather pay the skill tax, then the feat tax.

Lantern Lodge

rorek55 wrote:
what is the forums opinion on a bladebound kensai? is the kensai worth the spellcasting and (free no spell failure for armor) things?

It depends on the flavor you want. Do you want to be more of a spellcaster? Then not a Kensai. Do you want to be epic awesome with a blade? Thats a Kensai.

The archetype itself leans towards a dexterity based concept (better initiative, more AoOs, etc...), so right up your alley. Less spells, but the thought here is that you don't need them, you kill everything quite well already.

There's a whole 44ish page guide on that specific archetype.

As for adding in bladebound, I personally don't really consider it unless I'm starting out at 6th level or high. Losing the 3rd level arcana kinda hurts.


Don't forget to take the flambouyant aracana at 3 and the extra arcana feat: arcane deed:precise strike. A Magus with SG, precise strikes, and of course his magic, does comparable damage to a twohand fighter, but has the versatility of his spells to bail him out of trouble/buff himself.

Lantern Lodge

Avarna wrote:

Spell combat is still going to require you have one hand free... So no shield.

It really depends on your build. If your intending to pick up weapon focus anyway, might as well do slashing grace. Personally though I prefer Dervish Dance, because I'd rather pay the skill tax, then the feat tax.

Buckler wrote:
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

Bucklers are fine, since you are not using them during spell combat (or benefiting them). You don't wear a buckler by holding it, it's strapped to your arm, so your hand is completely free, but you can still only use your arm for one thing at a time, hence the description.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
what is the forums opinion on a bladebound kensai? is the kensai worth the spellcasting and (free no spell failure for armor) things?

It depends on the flavor you want. Do you want to be more of a spellcaster? Then not a Kensai. Do you want to be epic awesome with a blade? Thats a Kensai.

The archetype itself leans towards a dexterity based concept (better initiative, more AoOs, etc...), so right up your alley. Less spells, but the thought here is that you don't need them, you kill everything quite well already.

There's a whole 44ish page guide on that specific archetype.

As for adding in bladebound, I personally don't really consider it unless I'm starting out at 6th level or high. Losing the 3rd level arcana kinda hurts.

yeah, this is a good way to go too, especially if you prefer, say, wearing fancy swashbuckler clothing as compared to smelly bloodsoaked armor. Int to AC, int to initiative. Kensai for the win - but it will cost you in spell slots. Try not to become a one trick pony (like all dem other magi spamming shocking grasp)

Grand Lodge

rorek55 wrote:
what is the forums opinion on a bladebound kensai? is the kensai worth the spellcasting and (free no spell failure for armor) things?

I personally Love it. That said, my current Bladebound Kensai is a controlling whip user. Rime Frostbite, trip and disarm. Chill Touch now and then (only way I had to deal with undead till 3rd with Whip Mastery)

Also, in PFS, a free magic weapon is great to free up money for better stat boosters, cloak of resistance, bracer of armor, ring of protection etc. Free is the best price ever.

That said, Falcata is awesome with the x3 crit (x4 with Perfect Strike) and the 19-20 range. Swash dip will allow you to Dex to hit and damage with it (by 2nd with retraining).


Human Kensai with Fencing Grace. My wife plays one in PFS and she loves it. She just hit level 2 and is in love with the "Zorro" maneuver where you cast Arcane Mark and then attack twice with the rapier. Shocking Grasp and Frostbite will make their appearances soon, but 1d6+5 damage is good enough to get the job done without them for the first few levels.

Silver Crusade

bladebound would be a must starting at 1 or not. (integral to the character) BUT, that being said, I do feel that perhaps kensia is a better fit for him as well. more martial training, less magic training. the only thing I will sorely miss is the loss of spell recall....


Kensai are famed for their collections of pearls of power, the loss of slots does hurt, but the availability of pearls of power can make it hurt much less.

Silver Crusade

hmm. Yes, the dex to damage at level 1 is tempting, but would an elf or half elf be better. So many decisions. thanks for all the input! (def. getting a ring of wizardry Asap

Lantern Lodge

That, and it only hurts at first... After you gain some levels, the amount of spells per combat goes up, eventually to the point where you have too many spells. Pearls of Power help bridge the gap too.

Lantern Lodge

Ring of wizardry is actually not as good as pearls of power for a Kensai. You get more bang for your buck with Pearls of Power, so long as you can live with waiting until after the combat to refresh your spell slots. The only awesome thing about the ring of wizardry is that is allows you to prepare a greater variety of spells.

Silver Crusade

another thing, would inspired blade (if I so chose) be best at first level or second?

Grand Lodge

If you are going Inspired Blade Swash, I would skip Kensai. Redundant feat (bonus Weapon Focus). If you do that, you get armor, more spells, spell recall etc.

I am also gonna second Frodo. The ring is great at high levels, but some pearls will be better at lower levels.

If you wanna dip Swash with Kensai, do it to be able to Slashing Grace a normally non finesse weapon (such as an axe or Falcata)

Edit: To answer your question, 1st is better. 1 more HP and starting with Fencing Grace.

Silver Crusade

whats the "best" exotic weapons to gain via kensia? top 3

Grand Lodge

Dex Based, no swash dip

Aldori Dueling Sword
-1d8, 19-20/x2, Slashing Grace without swash dip
Whip
-1d3, x2, Slashing Grace without swash dip, trip, disarm, area of control

Dex Based with swash (swash dip is the only way to get dex to hit and damage with many weapons)

Bastard Sword
-1d10, 19-20/x2
Falcata
-1d8, 19-20/x3
Rhoka
-1d8, 18-20/x2


rorek55 wrote:
whats the "best" exotic weapons to gain via kensia? top 3

Anything with 18-20 critical range. Katana, Rhoka and Urumi are the three 1d8s; katana is technically the 'best' due to 'deadly' for what that's worth (not much).


Thoughts?

Scarab Sages

BadBird wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
whats the "best" exotic weapons to gain via kensia? top 3
Anything with 18-20 critical range. Katana, Rhoka and Urumi are the three 1d8s; katana is technically the 'best' due to 'deadly' for what that's worth (not much).

Whip is interesting as being able to work with slashing grace without needing a swash dip, and having a 15ft reach. It's more feat intensive needing Whip Mastery, but it's worth mentioning.

Aldori dueling sword also works for slashing grace without needing the the swashbuckler dip.


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To answer the original question:

Slashing Grace is realistically only useful for Whip Magi. Otherwise, the best it can grant is +1 damage/hit over Dervish/Fencing, and that only after a dip. Not a wise choice. If you're using a Whip and going for Dex though, then it's kind of a given.

Fencing Grace is ideal for Human Kensai in particular, because it allows dex-to-damage from level one. Since Weapon Focus is also a decent feat for the static-accuracy-boost-starved Magus, its extra cost over Dervish Dance doesn't really hurt. Otherwise, it's largely equivalent-- Fencing gives a minor bonus against some maneuvers, Dervish means slashing damage which is generally considered better for DR. Where the rapier shines brightest with Magi is actually for Str-based builds, since it's the only piercing weapon with an 18-20 crit range to benefit from the Magus' natural love of crits and Precise Strike both.

Dervish Dance is the 'default' choice. It only costs two feats, good for Magi who are more feat starved (non-Human and non-Kensai, basically). However, it may run into issues with some GMs who don't feel it works with Spell Combat. Clear it with your GM first.

Fencing/Dervish are more or less equivalent in most cases though. Use whichever you prefer.

rorek55 wrote:
what is the forums opinion on a bladebound kensai? is the kensai worth the spellcasting and (free no spell failure for armor) things?

Kensai is a fantastic archetype, though it doesn't really start to shine until level 7-- but from then on, every class feature trade you make is awesome (well. Fighter Training at 7 sucks, but hey). Bladebound... depends on the kind of resources you think you can access and the level of the game. For PFS, it's nice. In a 1-20 game... it's really not. It misses out on too many good special abilities that a regular weapon can access and at the end of the day is more or less a 50,000 gold savings (less, if the Magus takes Bane Blade).

rorek55 wrote:
whats the "best" exotic weapons to gain via kensia? top 3

Whip. There is no #2 or #3.

If you're running a Whip Magus you only have two easy ways to get proficiency, so it's Half-Elf or Kensai. Whip benefits a lot from Kensai too, so that works out nicely. Easy enough.

Katana looks good on paper, but the Swashbuckler dip thing was covered above and at the end of the day it's just... really not worth it. If you're a Str-based Magus and if your GM has denied access to Precise Strike it's mechanically your best option (I'm in that boat myself), but beyond that it's subpar.

A Dex-based Kensai will usually do better picking up Rapier or Scimitar as their lone Weapon Proficiency.


lemeres wrote:

Slashing/Fencing grace might be better if you were planning to grab a shield.

While the Magus does not have shield proficiency, and he experiences Arcane spell failure from shields... that hardly matters if you grab a Mithral Buckler. Those have 0 ACP and 0% spell failure. Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

So the ability to just grab +1 to +6 more AC is rather tempting. It doesn't appear to interfere with your spell casting, and you aren't going to use your offhand for 2 handing... overall, it seems like something to consider.

No point since you lose the shield bonus if you use that hand to cast.


Why do you need to dip swashbuckler? Slashing grace causes any selected weapon to be a light, peircing weapon (so finesseble) also, would the 'weapon versatility' feat work with slashing grace? Seems like it would.

Grand Lodge

Varian Seldlon wrote:
Why do you need to dip swashbuckler? Slashing grace causes any selected weapon to be a light, peircing weapon (so finesseble) also, would the 'weapon versatility' feat work with slashing grace? Seems like it would.

No, it doesn't. Read the feat again.

It only alters the damage. You still need a way to finesse it.

Silver Crusade

Indeed, I miss read as 'treat as light peircing weapon' huh. Guess its the aldori dueling sword!

The whip seems highly effecient, except for the 'max damage dice' I'll keep this in mind for my drow NPC. However I feel a bit cheesy thinking about it :P

Grand Lodge

Well, you could get an Effortless Lace.

Grand Lodge

I use the Aldori dueling sword and have the dueling mastery feat. I also dipped one level in the prestige class. Granted this was before the slashing grace feat was legal though.... Were it legal i may have rethought the prestige dip. Best way to get a constant shield bonus as a kensai.

Grand Lodge

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace have a tax of Weapon Focus with the weapon you want to use with the feat. Slashing Grace is broken in that you can easily get yourself into using a weapon that you can get Dex-to-Damage with but not Dex-to-Hit (which presumably you also want), including with the Scimitar, so choose carefully. Dervish Dance has a tax of 2 ranks of Perform(Dance) and actually works properly with its chosen weapon (as does Fencing Grace). So it depends upon what weapon you want and what tax you are willing to pay.

If this isn't for PFS, you could use Effortless Lace from the Giant Hunter's Handbook.

Effortless Lace

Makes any slashing grace weapon finessable.


Not much point to Lacing. Best-case it gives you +1 damage/die with the katana. Or, if you're not as keen on the crits, you could use a falcata-- but while I'd have to run the numbers to confirm, assuming you're using a touch spell that's likely to come to a net loss in damage.

Grand Lodge

Did you read the second part? It lets you finesse one handed weapons appropriate for your size. There are far better weapons than light weapons. +1 damage/die is a big deal as well. Also great for Kensai, if you aren't a cookie cutter shocking grasp build having the awesome crit stats for a falcata is nuts.

Silver Crusade

Kurthnaga wrote:
Did you read the second part? It lets you finesse one handed weapons appropriate for your size. There are far better weapons than light weapons. +1 damage/die is a big deal as well. Also great for Kensai, if you aren't a cookie cutter shocking grasp build having the awesome crit stats for a falcata is nuts.

ATM my character is a RoTRL applicant, so a lot of the nifty cold damage niches are out for me. Sadly you can't use burning hands with spell combat, would be awesome to apply it via your blade lol.

Also, I feel like since the black blade gets intelligent item things its still worth more than 1 single arcane power.

Lantern Lodge

Kensai is good from the get go. By level 2, he'll have more AC than any Magus other than a Skirnir, and a free feat. By the time you get spell recall anyways, you'll have enough gold to spare for a couple pearls of power (assuming a +1 weapon, +1 cloak of resistance, and a wand of mage armor).

Lantern Lodge

The black blade is certainly worth more than 1 arcana. However, you can't get extra arcana until level 6, so no arcana period until then. That means your delaying things like precise strike, arcane accuracy, etc.. until level 6.

Other than that, it's pretty good.


Kurthnaga wrote:
Did you read the second part? It lets you finesse one handed weapons appropriate for your size. There are far better weapons than light weapons. +1 damage/die is a big deal as well. Also great for Kensai, if you aren't a cookie cutter shocking grasp build having the awesome crit stats for a falcata is nuts.

I did in fact read it.

And there are no one-handed weapons that are more useful than what the Magus can already finesse. Any of the various 1d8 19-20/x2 (or x3) weapon is inferior to a scimitar once you can deal +9 non-precision damage, which is within easy reach with Spellstrike. A 1d10/x2 becomes inferior at two points of non-precision damage.

The katana (and its two twin cousins) is the only really viable choice there. You may think 2,500 and the vulnerability to sunder, steal, et al. is worth +1 damage/die. If so, by all means, Lace up a katana and have fun.

The falcata is honestly... still not a good idea. It works fairly well compared to the scimitar, but you're investing identical resources into it that you are for the katana so that's a better point of comparison. The exact numbers vary since we have two variables, of course, but for some data points:

A 5D6 Grasp (17.5 damage) is equalized by 13 points of non-precision damage. 14+ static damage, falcata wins. That's... a bit of a stretch for a Dex Magus at level five.

A 10D6 Grasp (35 damage) is equalized at 30.5 static damage. That's not going to be realistically reached by a Magus. Note that the 10D6 Grasp is what a Magus can reach with incredibly minimal investment; that's one feat and one trait. A Magus not bothering with that investment or Frostbite might want to use a falcata but... well. One feat (that's needed /exactly/ when you get a bonus feat even) and one trait is not going "cookie cutter". That's nothing. Archers pay more than that in basic functionality feats and nobody bats an eye.

A 15D6 Grasp (52.5 damage; Empowered Shocking Grasp) is equalized by 48 points of static damage. Kind of stating the obvious but no Magus who's actually trying to focus on Grasp should bother with a falcata.

Fair's fair, this data doesn't include the difference on the other attacks in a full attack sequence. That's a pain to calculate given that it'll vary with stats. That said, Frostbite doesn't have the same concerns about full attacks. Compare:

A 5th-level Frostbite (8.5 damage) is equalized by four points of static damage. Easily reached.

A 10th-level Frostbite (13.5 damage) is equalized by nine damage. Not exactly easy all things considered, but possible.

A 15th-level Frostbite (18.5 damage) is equalized by fourteen damage. That's not easy to do at all.

*Shrug* Close enough that you can easily justify using either one at the point that you've decided to sink those resources, but if we're talking objectively you're likely better off with a katana unless you just ignore Spellstrike outright every round. I've yet to see an efficient Magus who does that.


kestral287 wrote:
If you're running a Whip Magus you only have two easy ways to get proficiency, so it's Half-Elf or Kensai.

I think that Half-Orc is another good option. The city-raised alternate racial trait gives you whip proficiency outright. The beastmaster alternate racial trait lets you treat whips and nets as martial weapons which works with most magus archetypes. You give up orc ferocity, but net proficiency is great. The racial bonus to intimidate works great with the enforcer + bruising intellect combo, which is an option every whip wielding magus should seriously consider.


Huh. Half-Orc does work, go figure. And if we really want, we could also go Human and burn the feat but that just seems like we're wasting Human. Still not easy, and Kensai's great with a whip so defaulting to that is probably the 'best' route.

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

The black blade is certainly worth more than 1 arcana. However, you can't get extra arcana until level 6, so no arcana period until then. That means your delaying things like precise strike, arcane accuracy, etc.. until level 6.

Other than that, it's pretty good.

Opportunity cost of the Black Blade is much greater than one arcana:

  • You can never use any special ability not on the Magus list
  • You lose arcane pool points
  • You can never get a familiar (which can actually be significant now!)
  • You may lose control of your character and/or lose access to your weapon's abilities when you lose an Ego-fight.

    Points #1 and 2 are the major ones. But all can matter, so it's much more of a cost than an arcana.


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    yep. If you're looking for pure DPR, Kensai magus, (nevermind bladebound, ...too many complications.) Flambouyant arcana/ arcane deed(precise strike) is all you need to "dip" swashbuckler. Slashing grace *does* allow you to use say.. a katana, as a precise weapon for precise strikes, it explicitly states that in the feat description.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat

    But look at the feat investment now; you get weapon focus for free at level 1 as a kensai, but to qualify for further feats (slashing grace) you need weapon finesse. Then you get your third level arcana (flambouyant arcana gives you derring-do and opportune riposte, using arcane pool instead of pinache, and flambouyant is a prereq for arcane deed - that's your swashbuckler dip, essentially) and as your level 3 bonus feat, you take extra arcana. As an arcana, you take ARcane Deed, which allows you to pick a swashbuckler deed, (Precise strikes, with your magus level counted as your swashbuckler level). Still no slashing grace until 5 >.< unless you are a human, and took it at level 1.

    So, If you take a human Magus-kensai, you could have the whole feat chain-but nothing else until later. But hey, if you're looking for pure dps, that's as good as it gets (imo) for dex builds at level 3.

    A 16 dex, 16 int magus does dX (insert weapon here) + 3 (dex) + 3 (magus level, precision damage).

    Now... Add in spells and spellstrikes, and it only gets more severe. Spells like chill touch (level 1) or elemental touch give an extra d6 damage+status effects, and the repeated uses are all usable with spellstrikes ( so now you're dual wielding your (weapon dmg) +dex/precise strike + d6 elemental. Costs less over time than using shocking grasp.

    But then, corrosive touch or shocking grasp, + the intensified metamagic feat, and at level 10 you're hitting for 10d6 shocking grasp + weapon damage, both doubled on a crit (even if your precise strike isn't doubled, its a lotta damage.

    I may be overstating this to a lot of you who already understand, just pointing it out for those who don't realize - with essentially 4 feats, magus does a truckton of damage in either short bursts, or over the course of a minute.

    Add in all the other good stuff - agile maneuvers, arcana: maneuver mastery, arcane strikes, weapon specialization, cat's grace (level 2 spell, hey), close range (rng touch attacks can be used with spellstrikes, oh my.) and you're talking about a class that wieghs in with the best, at any level (except maybe level 1, but who cares, you'll get in two fights and be onward to greatness).

    Then add gear >.< OP begins. with a +2 weapon at level 9, you're wielding a +5 weapon. Yeah, let's ignore all DR with your lowbie. Totally makes up for the lower BAB.

    Scarab Sages

    Aemesh wrote:

    yep. If you're looking for pure DPR, Kensai magus, (nevermind bladebound, ...too many complications.) Flambouyant arcana/ arcane deed(precise strike) is all you need to "dip" swashbuckler. Slashing grace *does* allow you to use say.. a katana, as a precise weapon for precise strikes, it explicitly states that in the feat description.

    Yes it does. It does not allow you to use weapon finesse with a katana. It allows Dex to damage, and it allows the katana to be used with any feat or class ability that requires a one handed piercing weapon. But without swashbuckler's finesse, it still uses STR to hit.


    Kensai doesn't actually handle raw damage better than baseline or Hexcrafter. Ideal for raw damage is actually Beastblade, but that comes with a whole host of its own complications.

    Mostly Kensai is helpful because it sets up your early feat progression and then applying Int to most of the traditional Dex stuff means that you either really dominate in things like initiative or you're merely really good at them but didn't have to shell out the two extra feats for Dex to Damage.

    Magi dip Swashbuckler for Swashbuckler's Finesse though. Which is... really not worth it. Doubly so now that Effortless Lace is a thing, which, while it certainly still has a price tag associated with getting your weapon of choice kitted for Dex, has a lesser price than a Swash dip does.


    Slashing grace:
    Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

    "Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size."

    So, what you're saying is that weapon finesse's description doesn't include that, which I think I get; it's very specific, at second glance, about what weapons actually use it.

    "With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."

    Kind of strange, considering you could just get a down-sized curve blade (among others) and have that apply - and essentially, it's the same size, weight, and very similar in shape to a katana. The only difference I see is "deadly" but it's also more expensive. Still, I cede the point; explicitly stated, you can't use weapon finesse with slashing grace/katana.

    Though, now that I just wrote that I'm totally GM overruling it, lol.

    edit: *groan* "weapon appropriate for your size" bah! whatever, so you elven curve blades and whipchains- graceful weapon, katana is no go. Seems kind of like splitting hairs (no pun intended)


    Yup. Dex-katana is only possible for a Swashbuckler/Daring Champion or with Effortless Lace.

    It's only +1 damage over a scimitar or rapier though, so it's really not a big deal. Use it if you can, if not mreh.

    Grand Lodge

    Aemesh, please do GM Fiat that. The hate for Dex is too intense from Pazio (and some vocal players/posters)

    That said, it has been established that there is a viable option for Dex Kensai without a Swash Dex. Aldori Dueling Sword.
    Effortless Lace "should" work for all the other slashing weapons. (Falcata and Katana, both have merits, I simply prefer Falcata because of the x4 crit a Kensai can bust out, with the burst properties you can add)

    Somehow, we are still missing out on Bludgeoning and Piercing, but hey, Skeletons do not exist right?

    Adding in Black Blade, I would suggest Elf. The Favored Class Bonus of 1/6 of an Arcana, makes up for the 2 missing arcanas. You would have 2 by 6th, 4 by 12th, without Extra Arcana.


    Dafydd wrote:

    Aemesh, please do GM Fiat that. The hate for Dex is too intense from Pazio (and some vocal players/posters)

    That said, it has been established that there is a viable option for Dex Kensai without a Swash Dex. Aldori Dueling Sword.
    Effortless Lace "should" work for all the other slashing weapons. (Falcata and Katana, both have merits, I simply prefer Falcata because of the x4 crit a Kensai can bust out, with the burst properties you can add)

    Somehow, we are still missing out on Bludgeoning and Piercing, but hey, Skeletons do not exist right?

    Adding in Black Blade, I would suggest Elf. The Favored Class Bonus of 1/6 of an Arcana, makes up for the 2 missing arcanas. You would have 2 by 6th, 4 by 12th, without Extra Arcana.

    Yup, though even with the slashing grace katana, I don't see what the big deal is, if you can do the same thing with a rapier, only d6 vs d8. It's one dice damage difference, for the cost of a feat. Doesn't seem worth it as compared to picking up a metamagic or Agile maneuvers, but if someone really wants to pump out 1 damage more per round, meh, let 'em. Deadly agility - same thing basically, but also allows you pretty much the same benefits of double slice, just with dex weapons. Balance-wise, seems picky is all, considering how few classes give you a "free exotic proficiency", at the cost of being able to use it with any other weapons but that specific one, of course.

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