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I think what you're experiencing is a "playstyle clash" - the long story short you and your GM have different expectations and desires from what you want to get out of the game.
An important art for both of you is learning how to compromise and change and alter your expectations from the GM in question.
EDIT:
Okay, here's the thing. I was going to tell you how I'd handle it, but the real problem with that is that it comes off as me telling you that your GM was in the wrong or you are and, frankly, I can't do that, as I'm not there, and I don't know the situation and no amount of words people give will change that.
Ultimately, the purpose of the game is to have fun. If you're not having fun, talk to your GM. If your fellow players aren't having fun, talk to your GM. See if you can work things out like mature adults.
If, on the other hand, he refuses to compromise, refuses to change, or something, and you can't find it in you to change, then offer to take a hand at GMing yourself. Allow him to play or not, at your and his options, and run it as you would want it run. Show him how you'd like it.
Optimized builds can be awesome and fun, but if you don't want them, they're not.
If you do take your own hand at GMing, and you're interested in help, you'd be welcome back for more ideas. For less-than-standard numbers of players, I have several (and probably these involve boosting the players' powers).
Ultimately, I'd say that you and your GM lack a trust relationship between the two of you, have expectations and desires and styles that clash (currently), and thus are not enjoying the game together. One or (preferably) both of you will have to change or else you're not going to be able to continue to game. It'll be a bore and frustrating and a waste of everyone's time. And that's not what the game is meant to be.
Thanks Tacticslion for sharing. Yeah, I was thinking about just GMing the next game. You got me thinking more about the clashing playstyles; I totally agree; he's playing a Synethesist build with the classic crazy dump on physical stats for our game this weekend so I think it's fair to assume he's totally into optimization!
Now to decide how to tell him I think this may ruin the game as his party mates are a all new people; one is a halfling fighter with 14 strength, a bow paladin who's new, a random elemental sorceroress, and a brawler. The disparity is absurd; I mean he gets 4 attacks at level one!
Just wanted to point out, Eidolons only get 3 attacks at level 1. Not because they can't have more, but because there is a limit put on the amount of attacks they can take. This limit doesn't icrease to 4 attacks until level 4 at the earliest, and Synthesist does nothing to change this.
But yeah, sounds like some issues might be brewing, especially at level 1, where the Synthesist shines brightest. But hey, you're the DM, don't be afraid to lay down some ground rules...is what I'd say if I wasn't so sure he'd just switch to Barbarian and destroy everything with a super tweaked out build.
So for dealing with him, I'd suggest using a Stat Array. This indirectly weakens the Synthesist because it doesn't allow him as much freedom to dump stats and raise others far beyond what they would otherwise be. It also helps out your more mad classes. Furthermore, if he refuses to change classes, give everyone else a free feat to compensate (the Bow using Paladin would probably love that). Lastly, consider splitting up the group and running his encounters at a separate skill level.
Note, I have spent about 0.00 years spent GM-ing, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Still though, I hope it helps.
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I remember that dungeon can be kind of tough, especially the deeper you go. Its easy to expend a lot of resources making it through the brambles beforehand. Total Party Kills (TPKs) are pretty common at low levels, you're often only a crit away especially with a small party.
Additionally, other things to consider might be your stats (roll, 15 pt buy 20 pt buy). The GM could include a NPC like Shalelu to help balance the party. If I recall, the adventure paths are designed to be fair but challenging for 4x moderately optimized 15-point buy players, with access to their average wealth-by-level, and access to whatever magic items can be found in the settlement they are currently based out of (that's a mouthful). If players are handicapped in regards to any of these assumptions it becomes more difficult. Actually I'm surprised you all hadn't hit Level 3 by the time you got to that level of the dungeon.
The PRD does give some ideas on adjusting encounters: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
All in all GMing can be tough and takes time and experience to become good at. That includes learning from players and teaching newer ones. I wouldn't recommend burning any bridges, especially if the GM is a good friend.
I recommend just talking to the ex-GM/Synthesist player. Assuming he or she is human, they should understand you if you ask to tone the character down to not outshine the other players. Sticking with Synthesist might be fine, but ask the player to not take a totally combat focused role. I believe (not sure) a lot of the skill focused evolutions work with Synthesist.
Besides, what is the point of optimizing when there is no challenge. To me, 75% of the fun with optimizing is having a hand tied behind your back while doing so.
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I'd ask the guy playing the Synthesist to choose a different type of character. There's a reason that option is banned in PFS play. Alternately, as suggested above, require that he play with a stat block (he'll hate that, but it's a good suggestion). Otherwise you're very likely to get a situation where any foe capable of even harming the synthesist can easily kill the rest of the party. E.g. If another player creates a Fighter, everyone will discover that the synthesist does everything the fighter does only lots better, is super-charismatic, casts spells, and is much tougher in HP, AC, and saves.
Perhaps try this approach:
"Look, Joe, I know how good you are at building powerful characters. The rest of the group is mostly new players who don't know know the first thing about optimization. If I let you play your Synthesist, or some other hyper-optimized character, the other PCs will be of far less heroic stature. That makes it hard for me to run the game, because anything capable of threatening your PC will be able to kill the others with harsh language. Joe, what I'd like to do is challenge your optimization ability in other ways. First, I'd like you to voluntarily limit yourself to a weaker class or concept, then take it as far as you can. For example, perhaps limit yourself to CRB Fighter and make the best CRB fighter that can be made. For another example, maybe play a melee Wizard, a very non-optimal concept, and use your amazing minmax talents to make a melee Wizard that doesn't suck. CRB Wizard is well established as first among equals of the most powerful Pathfinder classes. Second I'd like you to help optimize the combat ability of the entire team. Figure out how this group can be most effective, and then slowly, with good role playing panache, teach the new players how to be awesome. Joe, I'm convinced we'll all have a lot more fun in this next campaign if we do something like that. What do you think?"
Regarding the TPK, it happens. I agree with the play-style clash explanation discussed above. Best to move on.
I agree that getting your girlfriend more involved will help a lot. If she's fully engaged she'll have more fun,you'll have more fun, and the group will be way more effective. Last year someone posed this closely related question, in an attempt to get a new player more involved:
I'll be running a Wrath of the Righteous game soon for my crew and one of our newer players has decided she likes being a supportive character. After some discussion, she chose an evangelist cleric of Desna with the luck domain.
My problem was, I couldn't figure out what to have her do after she finished buffing. Use a crossbow? Is intimidate a good idea? I could use some help coming up with ideas for the rounds where she would otherwise say "I guess I hold my action".
Thanks in advance :)
Bard and Evangelist Cleric have a whole lot in common. Both support and heal allies, both open most fights with Inspire Courage. While she's unlikely to create another Bard for her next PC this simple yet thorough answer, applicable to a Bard, might give her some ideas. It's an example of one highly effective way to play a Bard in combat. A 'reach cleric' or 'reach bard' is just a character who fights with a simple longspear and uses reach tactics. Perhaps send her a link to this thread.
Glad you'll start GMing. Good luck!
Orik killed one of our party, our wizard who mocked him having killed his love interest. I liked Orik... It was a shame he kept going after he put our wizard down, because then we had to kill him (or surrender, and that would not have gone well).
Thistletop can be very hairy, and it is really filled with a lot of goblins. We had three deaths, and two near deaths - one narrowly survived as two compatriots died around him. It was definitely a brutal area with a brutal dm running things.
I enjoyed the challenge, and my pc and another were the only ones that survived the initial intrusion.
If have a few questions for you dkeller. Do you think tpks should never happen? Do they offend you? Do you want it far easier with very little chance of death?
If you are of those opinions, let your dm know and explain getting slaughtered was not fun. :)
Many complained after their next characters were killed, and the dm said the whole party were s@%%. Lol.
Hopefully it works out.
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You said that your GM had only been GMing for two months. That's a bit wet behind the ears for taking on an AP, and Runelords is not a gentle AP. With such a novice GM, he simply may not have the learned skill for a party that doesn't meet the AP's minimum expectations.
I would suggest that the GM wet his chops with smaller things. I would highly recommend the following for practise.
Silverhex Chronicles
Confirmationand The Disapeared.
These are all PFS chronicles, the first is a free download and the rest are 3 bucks each. You do not have to be members of the campaign to homeplay this.
AP's are fantastic to guide new GMs into GM'ing.
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I think synthesist is banned from PFS more because of funky rules than being overpowered. It has huge table variance, but is probably weaker than the base summoner.
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My thoughts on this:
Since you're a player, you shouldn't go behind the GM reading the AP, even if it's just to check to see if he's running the AP "by the book." Many GMs consider that cheating and you might inadvertently read something spoilery.
The AP is designed for a four-PC party. Since you only have three players, you're already behind the curve. Also, two of your three are level 2, which is lower than the recommended level (3rd) for this part of Thistletop. Those two things along will give you problems. Your party composition is also problematic (in the sense that it'll make fights harder).
I wouldn't be too hard on your GM though. This looks more like a lack of experience than anything nefarious.
I also disagree with Errant Mercenary. APs are complex, can take years to run to completion, and require a lot of preparation, insight, and (often) customization. New GMs are much better off running shorter adventures until the get comfortable in the GM chair.
-Skeld
You should expect a TPK if your party is only 2nd lvl at Thistletop.
Going back to check the AP as a player to see "what should have happened..." is not a good thing to do. As others have said, that suggests an unhealthy dynamic right there.
He ran the AP as written. And you state that he says he held back by not throwing as many gobos at you as he could have. (No way to know as there are several in different locations who can show up if a fight breaks out.)
Really, it was because you 3 tackled a tough scenario without being properly leveled-up. Do-able, but only if you are very careful.
Were there any suggestions that you may not want to head to Thistletop quite yet? Any attempts to dissuade you until you had gained a level at least? Otherwise, TPKs happen. Sucks, but it is a game where you go and take risks. Sometimes those risks don't pan out.
Bottom line: did you have fun? Even in fights where we have a TPK, sometimes those are epic when looking back! "I went down swinging!"
Interesting to read that about APs. I personally found more daunting having to come up with a campaign setting, a score of NPCs (mildy interesting at least), enemy NPCs, an interesting story line, stat up NPC humaoids that took class levels, etc, rather than have all of this printed and omit/included what you (don't)like. Perhaps because the comparison I did wasn't with short modules and one off sessions, in which case, yeah I agree with you.
On the checking the AP behind the GM. Better just ask the GM how many there were. He can show you the page. If you just read what's behind...as stated, why bother playing at that table.
The printed APs as is are not very difficult for 4 optimised characters. However with 3 and not very experienced, some parts will be mince grinders.
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The printed APs as is are not very difficult for 4 optimised characters. However with 3 and not very experienced, some parts will be mince grinders.They're not even hard for 4 decent characters. But 3 borderline decent characters will definitely have issues at certain points.
And when two of them are a level behind it quickly leads to TPK.
I will join the choir and say that it is very bad form on your part to go and read part of the AP behind your DM's back.
Our group has been playing together for a long, long time, and this fight nearly wiped us clean. I believe that @Skeld actually went easy on us near the end to avoid a TPK ;-)
Being nearly through RoRTL now (going on 3 years I think), this AP is tough and your group is likely going to face death a number of times.
I think the best thing to do is set your expectations accordingly. Have fun trying new characters, help build your fledging GM up, and help him learn. Have good open conversations about what worked and didn't. Don't publicly complain about him.
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Interesting to read that about APs. I personally found more daunting having to come up with a campaign setting, a score of NPCs (mildy interesting at least), enemy NPCs, an interesting story line, stat up NPC humaoids that took class levels, etc, rather than have all of this printed and omit/included what you (don't)like. Perhaps because the comparison I did wasn't with short modules and one off sessions, in which case, yeah I agree with you.
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post: I think it's a better idea to start with shorter, less complex published adventures than to start with a full AP. LazarX had some good suggestions. I'd also recommend something like Crypt of the Everflame, which is geared to 1st-level beginning players/GMs.
-Skeld
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Our group has been playing together for a long, long time, and this fight nearly wiped us clean. I believe that @Skeld actually went easy on us near the end to avoid a TPK ;-)
Being nearly through RoRTL now (going on 3 years I think), this AP is tough and your group is likely going to face death a number of times.
I think the best thing to do is set your expectations accordingly. Have fun trying new characters, help build your fledging GM up, and help him learn. Have good open conversations about what worked and didn't. Don't publicly complain about him.
That's a tough fight. We had six 3rd-level PCs at the time and you guys had already one-round curb-stomped Orik (thus ruining all my awesome plans for him) in another room. Bruthazmus is a killer, especially against elves/half-elves.
-Skeld
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If the player knew the AP/campaign was over, I don't see anything wring with checking the stats. If anything, it can help him gage how much or little he may feel he can get away with without needing to powergame. And by the way, you can power game and still roleplay, they are nit mutually exclusive of one another. If he thought the game was going to continue, then it was not so wise to do without asking first, but he may have asked. Their is nothing wrong with asking to see the stuff to better understand expectations. You said you have been out of the.loop for a long time.
If people do find changes, don't be surprised when fights are made to be tougher, they often need to be when used against groups that have more players or much more experience, not just playing tabletop RPGs but this iteration of the d20 system and knows the ins and outs of the system.
Knowing how to pull or throw extra weight into a punch as a gm is not always easy. I have been GMing for over a decade and I sometimes doubt myself with weather or not a tweak is now too easy or too hard. Your GM did make an effort, don't criticize that too much. If anything, I think he should have thrown you Shelalu as a 4th body to go in with and/or run some random encounters before going to the Goblin base.
Did your last game have a bunch if easy wins? He may have thought you were all up to the challenge with just the icing taken off, not realizing the top layer should come.off also.
How is it bad form to read an AP they've stopped playing? dkeller couldn't have been going behind the GM's back as at this point the GM was no longer a GM.
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I may have missed something, but did OP say they were done? I reread the initial post and dkeller only says that he went back after the TPK and read the pertinent parts. I don't see anything about abandoning the AP altogether, although that may be what they do.
I'm operating under the assumption that a TPK in chapter leaves the group with a high degree of recovery/replayability.
-Skeld
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Thistletop can be rough. A party of three is a bit underpowered and a party or three that is 3, 2, 2 is honestly way outclassed. We were all well into third level before we even ventured out to the brambles and 4th level before we entered Thistletop and the module nearly tor us to pieces at various points.
I think part of the problem was that both the GM and the players just didn't have the game experience to realize that they were biting off more than they could handle.
I like LazarX's advice that you try a few smaller adventures and then restart Ruinlords from shortly before the Swallowtail festival. And direct your GM to the Ruinlords thread in the Messageboard where he can get lots of advice, props, and cool extras to add to and spice up the game. And if you can find a 4th player, all the better.
How close to Dayton Ohio do you live? ;)
Or Ocala, FL? :D
... just a bit. :/
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I'm also a DM as well as a player. While I have not read every AP. I have read some in case I wanted to run them. As a example I decided not to run Kingmaker yet ended up a player in a campaign. I was upfront with the DM about my knowledge. He was ok with it and I can do a good job of pretending I never read the AP. So if your like me chances are good that if you use the APs then you may also be playing in one as well.
At higher levels it's really easy to kill off pcs if the DM is not careful. In my last session the BBEG who is a 14th level caster. Hit the group with a prismatic spray. A couple of bad saves and I ended up right or wrong fudging the results. Ironically the Fighter rolled two 20s on his saves. But if I took the results. One dead caster. Two petrified characters. A dead familiar. Another both planeshifted and insane. I ended up keeping only two of the characters petrified. That's with a spell from the premade npc list for the BBEG. Not something I added in.
You should expect a TPK if your party is only 2nd lvl at Thistletop.
Going back to check the AP as a player to see "what should have happened..." is not a good thing to do. As others have said, that suggests an unhealthy dynamic right there.
He ran the AP as written. And you state that he says he held back by not throwing as many gobos at you as he could have. (No way to know as there are several in different locations who can show up if a fight breaks out.)
Really, it was because you 3 tackled a tough scenario without being properly leveled-up. Do-able, but only if you are very careful.
Were there any suggestions that you may not want to head to Thistletop quite yet? Any attempts to dissuade you until you had gained a level at least? Otherwise, TPKs happen. Sucks, but it is a game where you go and take risks. Sometimes those risks don't pan out.
Bottom line: did you have fun? Even in fights where we have a TPK, sometimes those are epic when looking back! "I went down swinging!"
i know very little about RotRL, so this philosophy/solution may not apply as aptly, but I think this is a good argument for throwing out level-by-exp all together.
The book give a pretty good idea in the beginning of what level the party should be at when they reach a certain point: why not just make them that level at that point?
Most of the time they will be, in which case the EXP tracking was unnecessary, other times they'll skip some more optional encounters by happening to guess right every time about which door to go through and then be underlevelled for the fight that's supposed to be really cool.
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dkeller, I have the perfect advice for you, being a longtime GM myself.
MAKE A MALE HALF-FIEND DWARF DIRE WERE-HONEYBADGER INVULNERABLE RAGER BARBARIAN THAT HAD HIS CLAWS REPLACED WITH +1,026 VORPAL, SPEED, FLAMING BURST DAGGERS OF WOUNDING AND A ROCKET LAUNCHER FOR A TAIL!
*Cues in Mr.Torgue's air guitar*
MEEEDLEEEEEYEEEEEDLEEEEEEEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
*Cues out Mr.Torgue's air guitar*