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I posted something similar the day the SLA announcement was made. And I asked the Paizo staff to at least give us a hint if that was the case to try to disarm this whole argument before it gained steam. They did not say anything, which makes me guess that either they really like rampant arguments on their boards, or there isn't anything addressing this coming in Unchained./dons Cap of Speculation
Considering the entire premise of Pathfinder Unchained is that it is Pathfinder without worrying about backwards compatibility to 3.5, I wonder if we will see some redos of some of the CRB PrCs. That might have even been the final straw that convinced them to reverse the FAQ, as they didnt want people gettingg early entry on the new versions.
It could also simply be that Paizo's core philosophy with Prestige Classes is that race shouldn't play a direct part in entering into them, thus the removal of the Elf and Dwarf requirements for the Archer and Defender classes.
If the SLA exploit was overwhelmingly creating an environment where certain races were effectively required to enter into some prestige classes "early" then that goes against that core philosophy, and so after a year they went "okay, yeah, no - this is making race a requirement for these classes; fgsfds, SLA exploit removed."
It could also simply be that Paizo's core philosophy with Prestige Classes is that race shouldn't play a direct part in entering into them, thus the removal of the Elf and Dwarf requirements for the Archer and Defender classes
Seems more like the prestige classes themselves shouldn't play a part in... anything.
Seems more like the prestige classes themselves shouldn't play a part in... anything.
It could also simply be that Paizo's core philosophy with Prestige Classes is that race shouldn't play a direct part in entering into them, thus the removal of the Elf and Dwarf requirements for the Archer and Defender classes
Yeah, the SLA FAQ did more than affect prestige classes entry requirements.
If race shouldn't play a part in entering Prestige Classes, then what about humans for every PrC that requires feats? Don't they get an unfair leg up over other races?
If race shouldn't play a part in entering Prestige Classes, then what about humans for every PrC that requires feats? Don't they get an unfair leg up over other races?
Can you think of a PrC that you can meet all the requirements for at 6th level except for the sheer number of required feats means you must put it off to 7th? ... unless you're human of course.
I can't.
If race shouldn't play a part in entering Prestige Classes, then what about humans for every PrC that requires feats? Don't they get an unfair leg up over other races?Can you think of a PrC that you can meet all the requirements for at 6th level except for the sheer number of required feats means you must put it off to 7th? ... unless you're human of course.
I can't.
Maybe Loremaster, if you're not a Wizard. Or a Half-Elf. Or a Sorcerer who's taken Skill Focus as one of his Bloodline Feats. Or an Arcanist who's taken Metamagic as one of his Exploits.
And the earliest you can take Loremaster is level 8 anyway, so... yeah, no.
Human isn't "required" for a damn one - everything besides Loremaster has 3 or fewer required feats, plus Skill Ranks and/or BAB and/or minimum spell level that makes it impossible to enter before lv5.
If race shouldn't play a part in entering Prestige Classes, then what about humans for every PrC that requires feats? Don't they get an unfair leg up over other races?Can you think of a PrC that you can meet all the requirements for at 6th level except for the sheer number of required feats means you must put it off to 7th? ... unless you're human of course.
I can't.
Maybe Loremaster, if you're not a Wizard. Or a Half-Elf. Or a Sorcerer who's taken Skill Focus as one of his Bloodline Feats. Or an Arcanist who's taken Metamagic as one of his Exploits.
And the earliest you can take Loremaster is level 8 anyway, so... yeah, no.
Human isn't "required" for a damn one - everything besides Loremaster has 3 or fewer required feats, plus Skill Ranks and/or BAB and/or minimum spell level that makes it impossible to enter before lv5.
So, it's fair to say then that race isn't playing any part in entry to those PrC's?
So, it's fair to say then that race isn't playing any part in entry to those PrC's?If race shouldn't play a part in entering Prestige Classes, then what about humans for every PrC that requires feats? Don't they get an unfair leg up over other races?Can you think of a PrC that you can meet all the requirements for at 6th level except for the sheer number of required feats means you must put it off to 7th? ... unless you're human of course.
I can't.
Maybe Loremaster, if you're not a Wizard. Or a Half-Elf. Or a Sorcerer who's taken Skill Focus as one of his Bloodline Feats. Or an Arcanist who's taken Metamagic as one of his Exploits.
And the earliest you can take Loremaster is level 8 anyway, so... yeah, no.
Human isn't "required" for a damn one - everything besides Loremaster has 3 or fewer required feats, plus Skill Ranks and/or BAB and/or minimum spell level that makes it impossible to enter before lv5.
I suppose it depends on how necessary other feats are to your build. In a lot of cases prerequisite feats are kind of taxes which impact upon the efficacy of your whole build.
So, perhaps not required for entry, but definitely important.
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Red Mantis Assassin requires FOUR feats and five ranks in skills.
But you can enter it with fighter, TWF ranger or rogue/slayer (with combat trick) to cover your bonus feats...etc.
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Just four, I think?
Alertness
Two-Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sawtooth Saber
Weapon Focus: Sawtooth Saber...Can't help but think that they could probably have skipped Alertness though.
You're right. Four. Not five.
Point is you don't have four feats by level 5 unless you have a bonus feat. There just happens to be a lot of ways to get a bonus combat feat.
What do people actually want out of Eldritch Knight?
Complete 9th level casting with a 3/4 or better BAB seems to be what people are using as the ideal, but is that reasonable?
9 level arcane casting is the realm of 1/2 BAB in d20, and getting a character with 3/4 (or just under) BAB and two levels less than full 9 level arcane casting seems like a decent combo. Having what would essentially be a Magus with full 9 level casting would be a bit much.
What do people actually want out of Eldritch Knight?
Complete 9th level casting with a 3/4 or better BAB seems to be what people are using as the ideal, but is that reasonable?
9 level arcane casting is the realm of 1/2 BAB in d20, and getting a character with 3/4 (or just under) BAB and two levels less than full 9 level arcane casting seems like a decent combo. Having what would essentially be a Magus with full 9 level casting would be a bit much.
Right now it doesn't have:
#1 3/4 BAB#2 full 9 level casting
#3 6 levels of abilities
#4 SADness
Just about ANY other option will at least give you one if not more of those. Just filling in the empty levels and maybe doing something about it's MADness would go a LONG way to making it ok.
What do people actually want out of Eldritch Knight?
Complete 9th level casting with a 3/4 or better BAB seems to be what people are using as the ideal, but is that reasonable?
9 level arcane casting is the realm of 1/2 BAB in d20, and getting a character with 3/4 (or just under) BAB and two levels less than full 9 level arcane casting seems like a decent combo. Having what would essentially be a Magus with full 9 level casting would be a bit much.
Right now it doesn't have:
#1 3/4 BAB
#2 full 9 level casting
#3 6 levels of abilities
#4 SADnessJust about ANY other option will at least give you one if not more of those. Just filling in the empty levels and maybe doing something about it's MADness would go a LONG way to making it ok.
Does it have better than 1/2 BAB? Does it get access to all 9 levels of spells? If so it's better at combat than the wizard, and better at spells than any 6 lv caster. I won't argue stat reliance because I use rolled in my game, so it's not an issue I have any experience with.
You didn't articulate what you want, unless 3/4 BAB and 9 level casting with single ability dependence is it. As far as more class features, I can agree with that for several classes. Clerics and wizards particularly feel like they have no real class features beyond spells, but people seem to think they're alright.
What do people actually want out of Eldritch Knight?
Complete 9th level casting with a 3/4 or better BAB seems to be what people are using as the ideal, but is that reasonable?
9 level arcane casting is the realm of 1/2 BAB in d20, and getting a character with 3/4 (or just under) BAB and two levels less than full 9 level arcane casting seems like a decent combo. Having what would essentially be a Magus with full 9 level casting would be a bit much.
Minor abilities besides "OOH! BONUS COMBAT FEAT!" once every 4th level.
Even Bonus Metamagic or Spell Focus Feat at levels 3, 5, 7 would make it better.
BORING, but Better.
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Why is everyone arguing about changing eldritch knight in a SLA FAQ reversal thread? All it ever needed was the early entry to begin its bab-arcane theurge progression to offset its lack of other class features.
Changing eldritch knight requires development time and product space and does nothing to fix all the other prestige classes. Changing a SLA rule requires adding/deleting a forum post.
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Clerics and wizards particularly feel like they have no real class features beyond spells, but people seem to think they're alright.
I'd kill for some real cleric class features @_@
Kill guys.
Paizo, hook me up with some real Cleric class features and I can make the naysayers disappear.
Clerics and wizards particularly feel like they have no real class features beyond spells, but people seem to think they're alright.I'd kill for some real cleric class features @_@
Kill guys.
Paizo, hook me up with some real Cleric class features and I can make the naysayers disappear.
I kinda remember Cleric Domains being more ability-based and didn't grant extra spells in the BETA playtest. I liked that - it was awesome.
Clerics and wizards particularly feel like they have no real class features beyond spells, but people seem to think they're alright.
And it manages to have less then they do...
Wizards have bonus feats, familiar abilities, school abilities, discoveries, a variety of archetype abilities and FCB. Clerics have domains, channeling, Spontaneous Casting, a variety of archetype abilities and FCB. EK gets a few feats and an ok end ability.Even something minor like negating some ASF or being able to cast with weapons in hand would help and fit the flavor. Having more dead levels than not isn't cool.
Why is everyone arguing about changing eldritch knight in a SLA FAQ reversal thread? All it ever needed was the early entry to begin its bab-arcane theurge progression to offset its lack of other class features.
Changing eldritch knight requires development time and product space and does nothing to fix all the other prestige classes. Changing a SLA rule requires adding/deleting a forum post.
I don't think the SLA FAQ (old) was ever about boosting prestige classes, just explaining how SLA's worked. I think it just have the happy effect of doing so.
As to "All it ever needed was the early entry", no not for me. It make it suck less, that's for sure but dead levels are dead levels. Other people, even normal caster, get to do cool things without casting. EK gets... a feat every 4 levels? woopdie fricking do...
I guess I SHOULD talk about the EK less and complain about the FAQ more though since this IS the SLA reversal thread.
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Why is everyone arguing about changing eldritch knight in a SLA FAQ reversal thread? All it ever needed was the early entry to begin its bab-arcane theurge progression to offset its lack of other class features.
Fair point, I won't bring it up here again. Although even this post gives me another question. I may start a separate thread.
Edit: Did start a new thread.
What do people actually want out of Eldritch Knight?
Complete 9th level casting with a 3/4 or better BAB seems to be what people are using as the ideal, but is that reasonable?
9 level arcane casting is the realm of 1/2 BAB in d20, and getting a character with 3/4 (or just under) BAB and two levels less than full 9 level arcane casting seems like a decent combo. Having what would essentially be a Magus with full 9 level casting would be a bit much.
Minor abilities besides "OOH! BONUS COMBAT FEAT!" once every 4th level.
Even Bonus Metamagic or Spell Focus Feat at levels 3, 5, 7 would make it better.
BORING, but Better.
You know giving EK some pool like Arcane pool from MAGUS would be cool.
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hell, just making them have more synergy with their Arcane armor feat would be great. Level one, arcane armor is a free action, bam.
{. . .}
Rage powers suck compared to spells so going barbarian 2 sucks.
{. . .}
First time I've heard THAT. Of course, it depends upon what Rage Power you pick. Admittedly Moment of Clarity is Awful (does almost nothing for you), but it seems like a steep but not totally unreasonable tax to get into Rage Prophet. You wouldn't want to take it otherwise. Judging by guides and forum posts, people who play Barbarians value their Rage Powers.
F1 |Power Attack, Blind-Fight
W1 |Scribe Scroll, cantrips, Universalist School, Familiar(Valet)
W2 |Arcane Armor Training
W3 |
W4 |Arcane Strike
W5 |Craft Wondrous Item
EK1|Improved Familiar, Arcane Armor Mastery
EK2|
EK3|Vital Strike
EK4|
EK5|Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Furious Focus
EK6|
EK7|Craft Construct
EK8|
EK9|Craft Staff, Improved Vital Strike
EK10|Spell critical
W6| Quicken Spell
W7|
W8| Still Spell, Metamagic Mastery
F2|Greater Vital Strike, bravery +1
This is actually looking pretty sexy. I may run this next campaign.
** spoiler omitted **
This is actually looking pretty sexy. I may run this next campaign.
I'd be tempted to do something similar with Eldritch Guardian, dropping Dual Talented or a random feat. Not sure how much value you could bring with your familiar and it definitely changes the character quite a bit, but I'd be interesting at the very least.
EDIT: Ah, I see you need 2 levels of Eldritch Guardian. That's unfortunate to say the least. Probably not worth.
** spoiler omitted **
This is actually looking pretty sexy. I may run this next campaign.Yeah, sure is fun wasting AAT for your swift every turn you want to cast, removing the option of quickened spells! At least it doesn't conflict with Arcane Strike I guess, which you will be using every time to attack (again, removing quickened spells).
Oh and look out for Greater vital stike at level 20! Badass warrior mage doing up to 4d10+15 as a standard action with +16 BAB.
Amazing, you are going to have so much fun playing this.
4d10? More like 8d10 just with earth elementals or 8d8 on a dragon bite.
Based on previous math upthread that would be (Bite +36 for 8d8+42) for those dreaded move and attack turns.quicken spell is for when you are not in armor, like with many polymorph effects (like being a dragon).
I always wanted to go Huge dragon, then (using a polymorphic pouch for components) cast transformation.
THAT
Is a nice feat saving item.
** spoiler omitted **
This is actually looking pretty sexy. I may run this next campaign.Yeah, sure is fun wasting AAT for your swift every turn you want to cast, removing the option of quickened spells! At least it doesn't conflict with Arcane Strike I guess, which you will be using every time to attack (again, removing quickened spells).
Oh and look out for Greater vital stike at level 20! Badass warrior mage doing up to 4d10+15 as a standard action with +16 BAB.
Amazing, you are going to have so much fun playing this.
4d10? More like 8d10 just with earth elementals or 8d8 on a dragon bite.
Based on previous math upthread that would be (Bite +36 for 8d8+42) for those dreaded move and attack turns.quicken spell is for when you are not in armor, like with many polymorph effects (like being a dragon).
So if the plan is to be polymorphed/not in armor often, why take AAT? For that one turn when you cast the polymorph?
You are pissing away 6 feats on worthless stuff like vital strike and arcane armor training, and don't even use one of the good EK bases (at least grab Eldritch guardian/Mutagenic Fighter if you must go fighter). There's really no point in criticizing your build because you have tunnel vision and the preconception that your idea is good, when it is, in fact, terrible. An equal level druid would laugh at your attempts of keeping up with his Vital Strike, that he uses with a form he didn't even have to use a polymorph spell for. Oh 8d8 in form of the dragonIII? Wow, it only took 1 of your 3 or so 8th level spells! Such power! It's almost like an unoptimized blaster could do more damage with a spell half that level.
And then you are the worst type of wizard. You, and people defending the EK in general go on and on about how versatile the spell selection are, and how flexible they are thanks to having higher BAB than normal wizards, and then you make a build spending 6 feats on having the option...
Is your name Simon Cowell?
Is your name Simon Cowell?
Gordon Ramsay? ;)
Simon Ramsay?
Gordon Cowell?
Is your name Simon Cowell?
I hope so, because the amount of flame suggest unhealthy amounts of rage. At least he could get paid for it.
His points seemed like knee-jerk forum wisdom responses rather than any sort of reasoned critique.
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Yeah, just because another build can do the same things better doesn't make the EK build worthless. The EK build, as presented, would still handle itself just fine in the vast majority of games.
Yes, Any idea that follows the "Forum Majority" is an un-thought out response just regurgitating what it was fed from the forums. Because we all know that the "Forum Majority" are actually wrong in their ideas and reasoning.
Because taking feats that you'll hardly use is totally a good idea.
Because taking vital strike is definitely a good idea.
Because even +1 BAB is totally awesome on a spellcaster.
Etc...
I fall under the view that yes, An eldrich knight can be a playable character. But it's when you look at it and how you want to play it that usually causes the class to fall apart. Yes having spells over no spells is better, but if you're just going to martial it up there are combat buffing caster/fighters that do it better (magus and warpriest and others). If you're going to be a primary caster then you are delaying your spell levels by 2 for what? Higher bab that isn't used because you're casting. And I fall with the people that feel that if there's a concept you're wanting to do why not be the best character for it? So while you can do builds with the EK, another class can often do the idea you're going for with more toys to work with.
And if you're planning on changing into a dragon, going all wizard will get you there faster. And you'd only be missing out on some BAB, which isn't that bad since you'll have a high str and will be using natural attacks. So you can still hit with a lot of attacks.
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...so about that SLA ruling reversal...the topic of the thread...which is meant to be discussed here...that topic...
Again, does anyone know if statistics are kept of which classes are being played in PFS? It would be nice to see if there was actually a surge in EK/AT/MT used after this ruling. Who knows, could (probably) be grognard GMs hating anything that isn't by the book "the correct way to play" ways of entering prestige classes.
I'm done venting, do what you want.
Good.
Arcane armor training is very useful for the lower levels where armor is your primary defense and you don't have access to a lot of polymorph options yet. It's also useful for when you are crushing mooks or getting surprised. Believe it or not, the adventuring day is not always measured in minutes.
Vital strike wonderfully combos with polymorph effects. Being a dragon is not when you are trying to pump vital strike damage, but the 6-8d8+base damage shows that the feats are still useful for those turns you are getting into full attack range.
If you do have a druid in the party laughing at you, she could also cast strong jaws on you, doubling or nearly doubling that vital strike damage.
As far as being a universal wizard goes, that is just so I don't write off any schools at the start. As an EK you aren't specializing, so it seemed a little odd to me specialize to a school. (Heroism is enchantment, false life is necromancy, evocation might be a decent ban but then no fireballs, illusion has many nice buffs and other uses, transmutation and conjuration speak for themselves, divination is always useful).
And if you're planning on changing into a dragon, going all wizard will get you there faster. And you'd only be missing out on some BAB, which isn't that bad since you'll have a high str and will be using natural attacks. So you can still hit with a lot of attacks.
minus 6 BAB will make you fall out of the useful to-hit range very quickly.
A better example would of been bloodrager or dragon disciple.
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And if you're planning on changing into a dragon, going all wizard will get you there faster. And you'd only be missing out on some BAB, which isn't that bad since you'll have a high str and will be using natural attacks. So you can still hit with a lot of attacks.minus 6 BAB will make you fall out of the useful to-hit range very quickly.
Unless you cast Transformation afterwards, In which case the EK is 4BAB behind. And the full wizard has more spell slots to waste on such a combo.
Yeah, contingent transformation when you cast a polymorph spell on yourself.
Unless you cast Transformation afterwards, In which case the EK is 4BAB behind. And the full wizard has more spell slots to waste on such a combo.And if you're planning on changing into a dragon, going all wizard will get you there faster. And you'd only be missing out on some BAB, which isn't that bad since you'll have a high str and will be using natural attacks. So you can still hit with a lot of attacks.minus 6 BAB will make you fall out of the useful to-hit range very quickly.
But now you can't cast spells should the situation call for it.
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** spoiler omitted **
This is actually looking pretty sexy. I may run this next campaign.
I've cross-posted this analysis in the EK thread if you don't want to bog things up in this thread.
This is an awful build.
Some quick cliff-notes:
a) Arcane armour training is a complete waste of feats. Just use mage armour/shield. If you are planning a polymorph build it is even more useless as you won't be spending more than maybe a surprise round in armour, and mage armour etc carries through to your new form whilst your armour doesn't. If you are moving in first round to vital strike, you aren't casting so you don't need AAT. If you are polymorphing on your first turn and then moving in you don't need AAT because you are polymorphed. If you are polymorphing before battle you don't need AAT because you are polymorphed. You also can't use your capstone and AAT meaning you will always have spell failure unless polymorphed -- at which point you don't need AAT!
b) Vital strike is similarly awful. EK doesn't have an issue with move and attack turns because they can always cast a spell as they move up (probably the polymorph or a buff). This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the limitations of the EK chassis. You would do much better picking up something to boost your to-hit or magic. You even drop an entire spellcaster level at 20th for it - this confuses me greatly.
c) You take still spell at 19th level well past the time it would actually be useful in your build. It's also unnecessary on a polymorph chassis and you shouldn't be in heavy armour to begin with anyway.
d) metamagic mastery is a 3rd party feat. You also don't meet the prereqs.
e) You don't use any fighter archetypes. Lore warden and mutation warrior are a direct upgrade for absolutely free. Again I mention you also take a fighter level at level 20, when the extra spellcaster level means another 9th level spell which is at the very least another shapechange or time stop. I really don't understand why you would ever do this.
f) You go universalist. EK needs spell slots desperately. Universalist is a bad choice - even if you didn't want the spell slot, you should at least be picking up an archetype that trades out spell school (exploiter wizard or spell sage maybe?).... but the spell slot really is too valuable for that. Your justification is the opposite reality: as an EK you desperately have to specialise as you have limited slots and spell levels to play around with. There is absolutely no point trying to throw fireballs or save-or-sucks around: you will have awful DCs and no good metamagic. Evocation is a free drop for an EK (I would probably drop enchantment too - you have better things to spend 3rd level spell slots on than heroism like haste or greater invis, and by late levels you can just put it a staff or some scrolls). Transmutation is the obvious specialty choice.
g) You take your crafting feats far too late. Always pick them up at their minimum level so as to maximise WBL gains.
Like I said in the other thread, you are never going to be useless because you are still a party level-2 wizard, but as far as EKs go this build is doing almost everything wrong in terms of EK optimisation. Not only do you fall into all the usual traps, you have this weird reverse-synergy going on between your capstone, armour training, arcane strike, vital strike and polymorphing.