What archetype combos replace every class feature?

[Marroar Gellantara]

I don't care if they are good or not.

[Secret Wizard]

To wit:

Core
X Barbarian - no archetype replaces all rage powers
X Bard - no archetype can alter/replace spells while stacking with others that get rid of other features
X Cleric - no archetype replaces spontaneous casting while simultaneously replacing everything else
X Druid - Spontaneous Casting and Timeless Body are the issues here, with the Nagaji Aspirant leaving one rank of Wildshape that cannot be altered or replaced further.
X Fighter - Viking and Tactician are the most promising archetypes to do this, but they don't stack well with others.
X Monk - AC Bonus is the issue, only the Ironskin Monk replaces it and it doesn't stack with Sohei.
X Paladin - Aura of Righteousness is hard to get replaced, Divine Hunter does it but it's hard to get it to stack with others.
X Ranger - Master Hunter f**+s you up, Shapeshifter has the most promise but you have no way of getting rid of Hide in Plain Sight.
X Rogue - Rogue Talents, can't replace or alter them in full.
X Sorcerer - Eschew Materials is the only thing that prevents Crossblooded from doing the trick (and Seeker/Tattooed Sorcerer/Wishcrafter from stacking perfectly too).
X Wizard - Nope.

APG
X Alchemist - Instant Alchemy can only be removed by the Deep Bomber, and it doesn't stack well.
X Cavalier - Can't get rid of the Order.
X Gunslinger - No archetype gets rid of the higher end deeds like Cheat Death.
X Inquisitor - Never get rid of Cunning Initiative.
X Magus - Bonus Feats.
X Oracle - 19th level revelation is a b!&!~.
X Summoner - Twin Eidolon is a b$&#$.
X Witch - 20th level Patron spell is a b++$*.

Other
X Antipaladin - Smite Good is a b$@&*.
X Ninja - Paizo is a b~+*#.
X Samurai - Worse off than Cavalier.

ACG
X Arcanist - 17th level Exploit is a b*$%~.
X Bloodrager - Can't modify or replace Bloodrage in any way.
X Brawler - Wild Child/Strangler is close but no cigar.
X Hunter - Tracking is a b%+&!.
X Investigator - Very very close, but not being able to affect all Investigator Talens easily is a big damper.
X Shaman - Manifestation is a b~#*+.
X Skald - Rage powers and stuff.
X Slayer - Slayer talents and stuff.
X Swashbuckler - Bonus feats and stuff.
X Warpriest - I'm not sure you can replace Fervor.

So yeah, closest ones are Investigator, Ranger, Alchemist, Monk, Druid, Cleric and Paladin.

[Ghufufin]

Fighter: Lore Warden/Martial Master

[Secret Wizard]

Ghufufin wrote:

Fighter: Lore Warden/Martial Master

Bonus feats, Bravery 2 and up.

[Ghufufin]

Doh. Forgot to check past bravery 1 anddor some reason bonus geats did not even register.

To OP, is this inquiry purely theoretical or does it have a purpose?

[Marroar Gellantara]

Ghufufin wrote:

To OP, is this inquiry purely theoretical or does it have a purpose?

Theory.

If you replace all the features, you have in a sense made an alternate class.

[Secret Wizard]

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

Ghufufin wrote:

To OP, is this inquiry purely theoretical or does it have a purpose?

Theory.

If you replace all the features, you have in a sense made an alternate class.

Ninjas/Samurai don't replace ALL the features though.

[Undead Strongbad]

I have returned form the dead to take over the worl- oh, holy craaaaaap! *its head rolls off the side of the screen*

[Tacticslion]

Okay, so now that that's out the way, five years later, is this still true, or can we finally eliminated everything about a class?

For these purposes I suggest allowing a class to keep:

- spellcasting (though there is at least one archetype which sheds an Investigator's alchemy; how compatible that is with other archetypes which change other things is unknown
- strongly related elements, like the "cantrip" ability (which really should just be part of level zero spells; an adept's inability to use 0-level at will notwithstanding)

- a central or defining class feature if all of the elements about it are changed: as an example, a bard who retains bardic performance is fine if every bardic performance (including fascinate, countersong, distraction, the various inspires, and so on) are traded out as an example; entirely changing the way a class feature works is also acceptable (so if you normally have access to one set of bonus feats, but that is replaced with an entirely different set of bonus feats; or if you normally have sneak attack, but instead are granted studied strike; and so on); I, personally, feel that barbarian rage is significantly changed enough by urban rage that the two are wholly separate things as a third example, but I figure this one would be more controversial
(I don't know if the community considers synthesist different enough from a standard eidolon; I have no strong feelings one way or the other.)

- IF you replace something like a bonus feat list, alter skill points, change a spell list, or otherwise alter something, I'd consider that "good enough" when touching upon that particular class feature

- I don't really consider proficiency, skill lists, hit dice, or saves a feature of this exercise, but I leave that up to the community

[Tacticslion]

Finally, and almost as importantly: in any given instance of a class how close can we come?

I know, for example, the bard class can come really close:

- fey prankster
- savage skald
- song healer

... replaces everything but distraction, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics.

- fey prankster
- savage skald
- sound striker

... replaces everything but fascinate, jack of all trades, soothing performance, mass suggestion, distraction, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics.

Alas, sound striker and savage skald conflict on exactly one point: suggestion. If we could get around that, we'd change everything except distraction, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics.

So close!

This example is not random, and this is not a strictly theoretical exercise. We are soon to have two bards in a Discord game and they seek to differentiate each from the other as much as possible. One was going to be a fey prankster and one was going vanilla, but they found the fascinate, suggestion/mass, jack of all trades, frightening tune, deadly performance, and inspire competence to be too similar, mechanically.
(Versatile performance was pretty great, so that's not an issue, but if it does get replaced also great!)

This attempt sparked a strong interest in a few players in finding the limits of the archetype system.

Thank you all in advance for participating!

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

As far as fighters go, Sensate replaces just about everything except weapon training 1. Combining eldritch guardian, mutation warrior, and martial master seems to trade out skills, bravery, 1st and 2nd level bonus feats, armor training, armor mastery, weapon training, and weapon mastery.

[MrCharisma]

It's not archetype stacking, but two Occultists who pick different Implements could get to level 17 before they have to pick the same Implement (assuming they each get 1 Panoply). This gives them different spells, passive abilities and active spell-like abilities, and would definitely have them play differently.

You could probably pick archetypes that change everything else about them so there's no double up.

[avr]

Dreamthief rogues lose sneak attack among other things, nameless shadow trades more including most of the rogue talents. With both you're left with evasion and the 16th and 20th level rogue talents.

If you want two occultist archetypes which look totally different try psychodermist and sha'ir.

[Cavall]

Freebooter trapper bow nomad ranger seems to replace everything possible.

[Aldrakan]

Phantom Blade Fractured Mind Spiritualist would replace everything except the capstone, and there's an alternate capstone you can take without archetypes. Phantom Blade replaces everything to do with the phantom, Fractured Mind swaps out all the spell-like abilities (and as a bonus effectively alters cantrips as well as spells by swapping casting to Cha base).
I guess they don't actually stack though, because while Fractured Mind doesn't replace or alter your emotional focus or phantom, it does assume that your phantom has one, and the Phantom Blade replaces the phantom entirely. Requires pretty mild GM permissiveness.

[Name Violation]

huntmaster cavalier replaces/modifies EVERYTHING except the order

[Theaitetos]

It's not necromancy if I just tag along...

Mongrel Mage Sorcerer replaces everything but Eschew Materials & Cantrips.