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I stand corrected, although we're still halfling-centric. I will amend that to "Considering anyone with a light crossbow can do it with one feat, slings should also be able to do it with one feat."
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The lack of Rapid Reload for the sling seems kind of like the game's way of saying, "Slings are for losers." On the other hand, maybe it is a form of mercy so that the sling is an obvious dead end instead of drawing players to waste feats trying to make it as good as a bow.
Well you can just take Ammo Drop and Juggle Load for the exact same effect... Or any time you need the feat Rapid Reload for a non-Gunslinger, you can just take Martial Weapon Proficiency: Composite Longbow and be better off then you ever would have been.
As an aside, I kinda like the sling glove, though only on something like Half Elf that can get a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency and can't exchange it for anything better. Compared to a bow, it has less range (though really it will be enough for most fights) and less damage and can't benefit from Manyshot, but it also has free action reloading by default.
It does have one thing of note over the bow though... only a 30% miss chance against Windwall/Fickle Winds instead of auto-missing with bolts and arrows. Depending on DM's love of such effects and party level, I would consider using a sling glove.
I figure that the Ammo Drop and Juggle Load feats will be available in a smaller subset of games since it is from a non-PRD source. I also suspect that a fair number of DMs would only allow halflings to take feats from the halfling themed book. Obviously this could vary from group to group.
Anyhow, even if that stuff is allowed it seems like you're still spending a lot of resources just to be able to use a sling instead of a bow. I've got a PC right now who intends to spend not just normal feats but a mythic one to make throwing a light hammer more worthwhile. I'm doing it mostly for the RP value though being able to use a heavy shield while making ranged attacks is kind of nice too (though a light quickdraw shield with a bow would probably work even better)
I highly recommend this article (its a link to a PDF) titled, "The Sling: Forgotten Firepower of Antiquity".
Thank you for the reference! Most enlightening.
You're welcome! I was pretty much blown away when I read that article, years ago.
I think that those two feats are the price you pay for using a weapon with a huge range increment that requires no weapon proficiency other than simple, no?
What issues remain after Ammo/Juggle?
Also I loved that article, @Phil.
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Lower range, crit multiplier and damage die than a bow, can't use Manyshot. One feat behind an archer (2 if the archer has martial proficiency) or a crossbow user.
Finally, can't use specialty arrows. Perhaps a minor concern, but there are a myriad of different arrows available that can come in handy in various situations. Being able to switch between piercing and blunt damage for example, or using durable arrows made from expensive materials.
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I think that those two feats are the price you pay for using a weapon with a huge range increment that requires no weapon proficiency other than simple, no?
What issues remain after Ammo/Juggle?
I wouldn't call 50 feet a huge range increment and the argument of "hey it's pretty good for a simple weapon!" kind of falls flat when you consider that you are spending two feats just to make it into a worse version of the bow... especially as you could just spend one feat and use a bow.
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I wonder why there seems to be much more variation in the usefulness of ranged weapons than melee weapons and why many folks seem to find it more acceptable. With melee weapons there are mostly small variations with damage die, crit range, and crit multiplier roughly balanced against each other and some other attributes like reach, trip, disarm, etc. With ranged weapons bows are great and everything else kind of sucks. You can overcome some of the drawbacks by investing feats, but even then bows have some unique advantages like Manyshot.
I found the PDF interesting enough that I'd like to see a "Deadliest Warrior" style test of the sling's capabilities. I wonder if this could be the dawn of a new age of "sling fanboys" who challenge katana fantatics to a theoretical weapon duel to determine what's the greatest weapon ever.
I wouldn't call 50 feet a huge range increment and the argument of "hey it's pretty good for a simple weapon!" kind of falls flat when you consider that you are spending two feats just to make it into a worse version of the bow... especially as you could just spend one feat and use a bow.I think that those two feats are the price you pay for using a weapon with a huge range increment that requires no weapon proficiency other than simple, no?
What issues remain after Ammo/Juggle?
There are many times when 50 feet is sufficient, and there are many times when someone doesn't have a strength bow that matches their high strength. Not optimal, but decent. I prefer javelins myself.
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because water baloons
I wonder why there seems to be much more variation in the usefulness of ranged weapons than melee weapons and why many folks seem to find it more acceptable. With melee weapons there are mostly small variations with damage die, crit range, and crit multiplier roughly balanced against each other and some other attributes like reach, trip, disarm, etc. With ranged weapons bows are great and everything else kind of sucks. You can overcome some of the drawbacks by investing feats, but even then bows have some unique advantages like Manyshot.
I suspect it's due mostly to comparative quantity. There are many more melee weapons than ranged, so there is likely to be more filling the gaps.
As far as game mechanics go, I like using slings for my fighter types (including bloodragers, rangers, slayers, and barbarians). They're a cheap way of getting your strength bonuses into ranged hits. Important if your low level PC is strapped for cash. Besides, I figure with a strength of 16 plus, you need all the strength bonus hits you can get.
Don't underestimate the 'lowly' sling in the real world either! I had to reasearch the battle of Teutoburger Wald for a report. The actual battle site had many Roman bronze helmets, and other pieces of armour, that had holes blown right through them by lead sling bullets from the ancient Germans.
The main reason the sling was replaced by the bow mostly because of training. It took much longer to train accurate slingers than it took to train accurate bowmen.
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If my 6th level ninja acts in the surprise round, he does 1d4 + 6d6 + 14 points of damage with his sling. It's not the tool... it's how you use it.Usually in the surprise round your ninja would take a move action to load the sling and be done... unless he's a halfling.
My ninja carries around a loaded sling instead of a weapon so it's not a
problem.
Glad to hear people are finding that article worthwhile! Xunal, did you get to read it? I think you'd enjoy it, too. Its on page one of the thread. I can repost the link, too.
Regards,
Phil
The issue I have with slings is the how much they weigh. I can have one but they are heavy when I carry 20 bullet (2 sp) for them. That's 10 pounds. Sure I could use rocks 1D2 damage and pick them up as need them but the -1 to hit really hurts.
@Phil: I wouldn't mind seeing that article. If I remember correctly, there was a real life ancient version of the Halfling Sling staff; from the Baleric Islands or Crete, I think. Apparently, those who trained very long and hard with it could be accurate to 60 yards (not feet). Very nasty. But you could train several bowmen in the time it took to train one of those slingers.
@voska66: the weight is a bit of an issue if you're not big and strong like a fighter type. But proper sling bullets are made of lead.
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@Xunal: This link opens the article, as a PDF.
If I remember correctly from the article, the Balearic (sp?) slingers were about the best, and the kids wouldn't eat unless they brought home game gotten with a sling. Also, "...a good Irish slinger could hit a shilling as far as he could see it" is another thing I remember from the article. I don't recall if there was much about staff slings - haven't read it in years - but I know the author did experimentation of his own to try and reproduce what he found in his research.
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@Phil:
Thanks for that. I downloaded it. It should make for an interesting read.
The Balearic slingers were reputed to be the best in ancient times. Julius Caesar, for one, made extensive use of them as mercenaries. There were bullets found from the battles of Augustus' time as well that had a lot of messages inscribed on them: some asking for divine blessings and others had messages on them that were just downright rude. I had to learn a lot of Latin swear words just to study things like that!
As I said, I like my martial types what are big and strong like ox, to have 20 or sling bullets on hand. For low level characters, they're really cheap. And, unlike normal bows, they add the character's strength to damage. Which is significant if your character has a strength of at least 16.
I don't think the range of 50 feet, in game terms, is such a big deal. Slings are also one of the best ranged weapons in dense forests or jungle, because there's all those "tree" things in the way. I can't see why PCs ought not make good use of slings under similar conditions, where you can't get a good long shot in with any ranged weapons anyway.
They made ideal weapons in the dense forests of Teutoburger Wald, where the ancient Germans wiped out three Roman Legions! Dart out from some trees, whack someone with a sling bullet and duck back into the trees again. It worked for the real world back then, it should work well in PF too, if you do things right.
No one seems to take into account that you can use a loaded sling as a melee weapon, whereas you can't do that with a bow and REALLY SHOULDN'T do that with a crossbow.
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No one seems to take into account that you can use a loaded sling as a melee weapon, whereas you can't do that with a bow and REALLY SHOULDN'T do that with a crossbow.
Probably because you have to spend a feat to be able to do that.
No one seems to take into account that you can use a loaded sling as a melee weapon, whereas you can't do that with a bow and REALLY SHOULDN'T do that with a crossbow.Probably because you have to spend a feat to be able to do that.
True, but you have to do the same to get iterative attacks with a non-repeating crossbow, so it seems like a moot point.
Slings aren't bad. People have pointed out the following:
They cost nothing to make and ammunition is far cheaper (1 silver piece for 10 bullets). Great when you get stuck without any equipment (as some APs are prone to do), or run out of arrows.
They add strength bonus to damage without requiring a massive amount of gold expenditure, and they tick to any strength bonus as well (so if you have your +5 composite longbow with a +5 strength mod, and that nasty shadow drains your strength, suddenly it becomes impossible to pull the bow).
They are a classic Halfling weapon, and with one change the Halfling can rapid fire a sling at the same rate you can with an X-bow or a regular bow.
Also, back in 1st Edition (all hail the great and noble wizard Gygax, leader of the grand coalition of Vancian Gazebos!), slings did 1d6+1 to medium creatures and 1d4+1 to large. So following the article that one person posted, the fact that slings lasted amongst people even until the 1930s amongst shepherds, you could adjust slings to do 1d4 and 1d6 damage, which would alleviate part of the problem for base damage. The halfing war sling from 3.5 did 1d6 with skiprocks, and it could bounce from target to target. Adjust staff slings to do 1d8 and 1d10 damage for small and medium size respectively, and slings become far more competitive. They aren't quite as good as bows firing sheaf/war arrow heads, but with those adjustments it makes them pretty nasty. A Halfling fighter specializing in a sling could jack out some nasty damage, especially if you cast gravity bow on his sling. Tap in rapid shot, manyshot, point blank shot, etc, and with the exception of range (which isn't a real big deal, since most encounters happen in ranges of 300 feet or less), and the sling becomes competitive.
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Simple weapons are always going to be mechanically worse than martial weapons. Other than that, not clear, really. Because they're low-tech weapons, I suppose? It's possibly an unusual nod to realism; there's a reason you don't see a lot of people hunting with slings after bows became a thing.Totally untrue. People still hunt with slings today. They were also used as an effective weapon of war all the way up to the middle ages, and beyond that outside of Europe.
They were used occasionally in open field battle because they were cheap. And rocks are cheap.
Mostly they were used in sieges where a limited supply of arrows made slings a better value for low % shots where the goal is more to harass than kill.
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Didn't we already have this thread?
Slings free, get strength-to-damage, are simple weapons, and in the hands of a halfling are almost as good as a bow for a much lower cost. The one real issue I have is the weight of sling bullets. 5 pounds for 10 of them means they're half a pound a piece. That's about 10 times the real-world weight of a muzzle-load .50 caliber bullet. It seems a bit much.
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Slings free, get strength-to-damage, are simple weapons, and in the hands of a halfling are almost as good as a bow for a much lower cost. The one real issue I have is the weight of sling bullets. 5 pounds for 10 of them means they're half a pound a piece. That's about 10 times the real-world weight of a muzzle-load .50 caliber bullet. It seems a bit much.
Slings are free - which matters at like level 1?
Get strength to damage - Bows get that for 1,000 gold on top of the price of getting a magic weapon, which is pretty much nothing unless you are super low level.
Slings are simple weapons - If you only have simple weapon proficiency then you are not meant to be a weapon user and you using a sling is a sign of you doing things completely wrong or being low enough level that you literally ran out of other options.
Halflings can be okay with slings - True, but the cost benefit quickly falls off and though slings have the pro of potentially getting through Wind Wall/Fickle Winds, you are still looking at a lower damage dice, less range, no Manyshot, and provoking through by reloading your weapon and firing it. It's a potentially worthwhile trade off though depending on your DM's style and your level.
Slings are bad because they needed something to be worse than bows and light crossbows.
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Slings are simple weapons - If you only have simple weapon proficiency then you are not meant to be a weapon user and you using a sling is a sign of you doing things completely wrong or being low enough level that you literally ran out of other options.
Clerics "are not meant to be a weapon user"?
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Clerics "are not meant to be a weapon user"?Slings are simple weapons - If you only have simple weapon proficiency then you are not meant to be a weapon user and you using a sling is a sign of you doing things completely wrong or being low enough level that you literally ran out of other options.
As a class with 9th level spells, I'd say that yeah, the class has a stronger focus in other areas. That said, if you are going to be a buff yourself and kill things cleric, ranged seems a bit iffy and even if you wanted to go that route you could conceivably just worship a god that smiles on bow use and grants you proficiency.
The fact that slings are cheap doesn't really make them any better. It just makes them cheaper. In real life you can get a lot of cheap things which aren't very good. Low level professionals (aka college students) often make do with cheap beer, for instance, so perhaps low level PCs making do with cheap ranged weapons makes sense too.
It sounds like some folks out there really do use slings in Pathfinder as more than a joke, and I think they're at least better off than the many players who ignore ranged weapons completely.
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Granted it's not pathfinder, but I seem to recall slings being excellent in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II.
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Granted it's not pathfinder, but I seem to recall slings being excellent in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II.
Slings can be used with free action reload like bows in Baldur's gate. Plus, you can reload with a sling in one hand and a shield in other.
Chengar Qordath & K-run:
Thanks for mentioning using that Sling Flail feat. Interesting. Giving me some ideas!
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@Charon's Little Helper (and others):
I had to do quite a few reports on ancient warfare. Slings were used extensively in ancient warfare for quite a long time. The slingers from Balearic Islands and Crete were some of the best. Julius Caesar and other Roman generals used slingers extensively.
In open warfare, lead sling bullets, about the size and shape of a human thumb, were used in great numbers. A well trained sharp-shooter with a sling could easily penetrate bronze armour.
They were especially useful against war elephants. They couldn't kill elephants, but they did penetrate their hide and drove the elephants into a frenzy of pain, which made them impossible to handle and they would just run from the battlefield to get away from the pain.
They're definitely simpler than bows and arrows. On the other hand, training to acchieve long range accuracy with slings takes a lot longer than with bows. While large numbers of well-trained slingers were devastating in battle, it cost a lot more to train and pay them than several times as many bowmen. So it was economy of numbers that replaced slingers with bowmen over time.
It would be kind of nice, and a bit more of a reflection of how nasty proper slings really were, if there was a Martial version of the sling that had a bit more range or damage. Barring that, one would just have to make do with the PF Halfing Sling Staff. Although that would require taking a Weapon Proficiency feat for non Halfings for that one.
But then again, there's only so far you can go with "realism" in a fantasy RPG. Accurate rules for all the weapons that have ever been used in the real world would probably be hideously complicated and detract from the fun of the game.
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@Charon's Little Helper (and others):
In open warfare, lead sling bullets, about the size and shape of a human thumb, were used in great numbers. A well trained sharp-shooter with a sling could easily penetrate bronze armour.
Right - I suppose I wasn't clear that I was referring to the aforementioned middle ages in particular. It was used somewhat more often before that.
Right - I suppose I wasn't clear that I was referring to the aforementioned middle ages in particular. It was used somewhat more often before that.@Charon's Little Helper (and others):
In open warfare, lead sling bullets, about the size and shape of a human thumb, were used in great numbers. A well trained sharp-shooter with a sling could easily penetrate bronze armour.
Fair enough. Slings were definitely a rarity by the middle ages. Ancient Greece and Rome were what I studied lots.
Just hurling in a groaner? ;)
Hadn't thought of that. Mostly because I've not run against that spell before...