I'm at a table that has been playing through Wrath of the Righteous since July of last year, and we've had a really consistent problem with one of the players. The GM and I are trying to figure out the best course of action for how to deal with it. Warning, this is going to come across as really complainy, but I don't have much of an alternative way to explain
Basically, the issue is that the player does want to play, but hasn't been putting any effort into really learning his character's abilities. He's brand new at Pathfinder and playing a magus, so we were really patient for the first few sessions. I'd even gone through and made him a custom spell sheet that has everything organized based on spell level, name, school, range, duration, whether or not he can cast it through his sword, etc.
But we've been playing for seven months and at the last session, he literally looked at me and asked "how long does my invisibility spell last?"
He is fun to have at the table when he's on point, but he doesn't know his abilities aside from a select few names, and even then still doesn't really know how they work and what they can and can't be used for.
The DM has spoken to him about whether or not he really wants to continue playing (because he's also chronically late and horrible about prioritizing the game and making other plans instead - which is why we're barely halfway through the second book in 7 months of play)
Our DM (and myself as well) are hesitant to boot him and find another player because of out-of-game friendships with the player, as well as finding another player (we only have 4 people right now) and then also finding a new player to work into the story.
But at the same time, it's really hard to continue playing with the Magus. Because the rest of us end up playing his character for him.
|
My group had a player like that. Sadly, there is no magic bullet. If they're bad about showing up on time and consistently, they obviously do not value the game that highly.
In my group's case the player stopped showing up all on their own when we stopped pestering them to show up. We all ran out of the energy needed when he obviously wasn't invested in game night.
That said, Magus is not a simple character class. It is possible that they actually just don't like the class and don't have the heart to say anything (possibly under the mistaken belief that all classes are that complex) and that has lead to them being inconsistent about coming to game (and on time). Have you considered offering to have them a switch to something simpler, like Fighter or Barbarian? I assume that this is the only character they've played with you. You can just say they retrained, or they got hit by some anti-magic curse and became a fighter to compensate for the loss of magic.
I had a (more vocal) player have the problem with Magus that, although it was cool, they just couldn't track what they were doing and had to give up and play something else after a while.
|
I remember now this is 12 years ago or so, I was running a fun home game with some good friends. Two of those friends, literally fell asleep during our game. Luckily we had two couches. When it was time to fight, They were whacked with a throw pillow, would wake up and play until the combat was over. Initially we were irritated by this. One friend unfortunately suffered from chronic pain and was exhausted. He also provided his apartment for us to play in. The other player, a martial artist, trained very hard. He played a monk, and we enjoyed ( when he was awake) his meticulous description of how his unarmed attacks were being made, however he didn't always remember the "ki- abilites" the monk had in game.
Well, maybe for a beginner player a Magus may be too complicated to play. Perhaps a simple martial character may be more his speed.
Perhaps his character could get hit by a demonic curse that strips his character of any magical ability......Bye Bye Magus, Hello Fighter, and one of his big story points could be his quest to regain his magic?
I don't know maybe this was a bad idea.
I hope this helps
Well, the problem was that our player really wanted to be magical in some way. We were trying to find a balance between overwhelming him with spell listings, but letting him have some magic. We didn't push him to pick a martial class because we also weren't going to have any arcane magic at that point anyway.
I was initially going to suggest him play a paladin (since WotR is great for pallys) but he's not the type to play LG basically ever.
We also already had a ranger and a rogue.
The DM and I are just kind of not sure how to deal with him. He wanted magic, so we tried to give him a more limited magic to not overwhelm him. But he's been playing for 7 months and still doesn't know where things on his sheet are outside of AC, HP, and attack bonuses.
I think we're considering stripping his magic (or rather, asking him to, since he doesn't use it anyway) but we're trying to make sure it doesn't stop being fun.
The reluctant, absent minded magician who forgets how his own spells work is a great character for the right player, you know.
Yeah, but the PLAYER should know his stuff, even if the character doesn't. That's the problem we're ultimately having.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Magus is one of the more difficult classes to play, so I find it hard to fault him for not being able to understand it all. The bigger red flag is the attendance issues, which can be a reason to boot him if he keeps it up.
I suggest boot him and be friends with him in a different game. Either a simpler RPG or other games.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If anyone in your group has Hero Lab they should work up his character for him and print out the sheet, gear and complete spell list. This will give him everything he needs to know about the character in one easy to find spot with explanations for everything he can do.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
New player, playing a magus, and mythic rules?
I don't think that this is going to work.
I've had a few players that just never learned the game or their character. What i gathered from them, it was because they didn't take the game seriously. They came to hang out, not play. This meant that they never bothered checking any rules between sessions, never attempted to learn what the numbers on the paper meant or how they can improve their game. This is okay and should be accepted, as long as it doesn't stall the game... which it most likely will since they're not interested in the game.
What you and your DM can do is to ask him to do more things, in-game. Make him do skill checks, ask him to cast spells. This only works if he's active from the start, though. If he's not, then just talk to him and ask why he even bothers coming.
I think, ultimately, that's probably what we'll end up doing. Which is sad, because he could be a really fun player. And I actually think he'd make a good wizard if he focused on spells that don't require attack rolls (like the battlefield control spells). Then again, I may be seeing too much potential in him because I love arcane casters. I actually ended up playing a Paladin instead of a wizard because he wanted magic. (that... and the DM didn't want someone that knows all about magic and wizards to gain mythic powers too... *sigh*). We're just kind of hesitant to take things away from him that he wanted really badly. But that sounds like a good idea to artificially make things that require his skills so he learns things more. I'll definitely forward that over to the DM.
New player, playing a magus, and mythic rules?
I don't think that this is going to work.
Yeah, we basically just ignore mythic rules for him. He has them, and when he gets close to hitting an enemy but misses we remind him of the +1d6 thing he can do. His build is actually intentionally cheesed a bit to compensate.
If anyone in your group has Hero Lab they should work up his character for him and print out the sheet, gear and complete spell list. This will give him everything he needs to know about the character in one easy to find spot with explanations for everything he can do.
We have done this in Hero Lab. But I'd made an even more simple and standardized sheet for his spells. His problem is that he doesn't want to read his sheets. He wants to be magic, but he doesn't want to read his sheets and find out that Scorching Ray is a ray attack and that he can cast it at a distance, while Shocking Grasp is a touch attack, and that you have to be in melee range. He just doesn't want to read things.
Definitely play when he can't make it. His not showing up shouldn't ruin it for everyone.
Also, talk to him about his character. Let him re-build it if he wants to. Especially the crunchy bits. A Fighter 1/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight might be a whole lot more fun and easier for him.
About his character sheet, try to customize it for him. Color code it, use BOLD ALL CAPS to label different areas on the sheet (skills, spells, attack rolls, saves, hit points, speed, initiative, etc.). Make spell cards for him. And teach him how to use his character sheet and spell cards. Don't tell him how long invisiblity lasts, show him how he can find out on his spell card how long invisiblity lasts.
I used to play a dwarf barbarian 1/magus 7 for a while, and it was pretty complex. Rage Power Attacks one-handed, Rage two-handed non-Power Attack, Non-raging, Power Attack two-handed, etc. etc. etc.
EDIT:
Maybe make him a 3.5 warlock. It's magic, but it's SUPER easy!
Here's a thought...do something out of the box and give him a one on one with a magus master, someone who can do a Karate Kid style of tutoring him in his abilities and powers. maybe even give him a chance of retraining to a new style.
Ask him what he wants in the character, see if there is some model. some fictional, or perhaps even wuxia that he wants to emulate and work on getting him closer to that ideal, using retraining to sculpt him to where he wants to be.
If you can get him invested in his character, that just might be the key that turns the engine on.
The only problem with that is that we've kind of already done it. And he gets lost in his character sheets any time he's not making a melee attack roll. And our DM is also really big on story. We're currently out in the middle of nowhere, trying to get into a giant fortress full of demons, and don't have a lot of access to that.
We warned him that magus was a hard class to learn from scratch, but he insisted on wanting magic and melee. It's just that his enthusiasm has tapered off really quickly. So much, that after months of playing, he doesn't even know the things that he can do. As much as I hate to say it, he still sometimes tries to move into melee and then take a full round action, and ultimately ends up playing a lot more like a fighter with no feats. It's just really frustrating because he could easily keep up with my paladin in DPR when I'm smiting.
We've repeatedly asked him if he's really invested in playing, but we're just not seeing any evidence of it. We don't want to boot him, because he really could be a fantastic player and improvs his roleplay really well. But he drags down the game a lot and we're just not sure how to fix it.
Definitely play when he can't make it. His not showing up shouldn't ruin it for everyone.
Also, talk to him about his character. Let him re-build it if he wants to. Especially the crunchy bits. A Fighter 1/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight might be a whole lot more fun and easier for him.
About his character sheet, try to customize it for him. Color code it, use BOLD ALL CAPS to label different areas on the sheet (skills, spells, attack rolls, saves, hit points, speed, initiative, etc.). Make spell cards for him. And teach him how to use his character sheet and spell cards. Don't tell him how long invisiblity lasts, show him how he can find out on his spell card how long invisiblity lasts.
I used to play a dwarf barbarian 1/magus 7 for a while, and it was pretty complex. Rage Power Attacks one-handed, Rage two-handed non-Power Attack, Non-raging, Power Attack two-handed, etc. etc. etc.
We've rebuilt his character once already. But I'm also worried about scrapping his character and rolling up a new one that's simpler overall. He isn't trying to understand the basic things like why he can't move and cast and strike all in one round. Giving him something entirely new is just going to put him back at square one with no idea how to do anything.
As for spell cards, I end up being the one to keep his spell list updated (which I really don't mind doing. I made an Excel sheet that keeps things neat and auto-calculates things when he levels up https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugsqmirokoa8e0z/HuttoSpells.pdf?dl=0 )
And he still doesn't want to read things enough to have a basic understanding of his spells.
Best to just be on the level with him then and let him know he needs to get up to speed on his character or change it to something easier to track. If he keeps showing up early, then he obviously wants to play, but there seems to be some sort of disconnect along the way.
Best to just be on the level with him then and let him know he needs to get up to speed on his character or change it to something easier to track. If he keeps showing up early, then he obviously wants to play, but there seems to be some sort of disconnect along the way.
That's exactly what I think the issue is. I think he wants to play, but there's some disconnect somewhere. We keep trying to nudge him into playing his own character, but it's like pulling teeth.
I just am really hoping to find the disconnect and find a solution instead of just booting him or issuing an ultimatum.
|
Does this guy have a lot of other things going on in his life that require a lot of attention? Family problems? Work issues? He may not really be able to focus for some reason or another. Or, he just doesn't seem to have room in his brain for really learning and living this character.
I would try separating his character from the party somehow...perhaps a barrier of some kind. Due to some circumstance the party really needs his skills or abilities (magic), perhaps their very survival depends on him. Have the other players stay quiet (maybe they are unconscious), so HE must be the one to figure out how to save them. Once he uses his cognitive thinking, snd sees a direct result, the lightbulb in his head might go on.
Kudos to you and your group for not giving up on him. Not everyone picks up the game at the same pace, and you have been patient.
Magus is probably the most difficult pre-ACG class to learn. It might arguably still be the most difficult class, and is definitely not something I'd recommend to someone who hasn't gotten the hang of the mechanics yet. Is he insistant on playing a Magus in particular?
If he just wants swordy wizard, something like the classic Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight might prove a lot simpler.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Get a 5th player. I find 5 to be the magic number. If one player cant make it the game goes on. This is probably the best solution because you can keep your friend in the game but it wont slow you down. If the player cant make it then you play without them. If they are in it for the camaraderie they wont mind you playing without them. If they are in it for the story it ought to convince them to commit more.
Does this guy have a lot of other things going on in his life that require a lot of attention? ...
At first, Pathfinder night was going to interfere with something at his church that was starting, so we moved it from Sunday night to Saturday night. But if he has any other big problems going on he hasn't said anything. Attendance would mostly be missed because of a work party or something that he wouldn't tell us about until the day of. After our last session our DM asked if he was still committed to playing and he said he was. So we're just waiting to see how that part plays out.
Magus is probably the most difficult pre-ACG class to learn. It might arguably still be the most difficult class, and is definitely not something I'd recommend to someone who hasn't gotten the hang of the mechanics yet. Is he insistent on playing a Magus in particular?
If he just wants swordy wizard, something like the classic Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight might prove a lot simpler.
Yeah, he does seem pretty set on it. I suggested a few simpler classes when he first started, but when our DM said "swords and magic" he was pretty sold. But still, after 7 months of play, he should be able to handle looking up info on his spell sheet, or at least have a general idea of where the extra text on his sheet is. If he were more likely to say "Oh, I have this thing. Hang on, let me find it.." than to ask how long his spells last when his spell page is literally the one he's open to, we'd not be having this issue. It's not that the class is too hard, it's that he's not invested any time trying to learn what he's capable of. I honestly don't think he's read through his powers once in the time we've been playing.
Get a 5th player. I find 5 to be the magic number. If one player cant make it the game goes on. This is probably the best solution because you can keep your friend in the game but it wont slow you down. If the player cant make it then you play without them. If they are in it for the camaraderie they wont mind you playing without them. If they are in it for the story it ought to convince them to commit more.
Our DM is really keen on having 4 people because of how things are balanced. He's found a person that would be interested in stepping in and joining the table, but he doesn't want to throw the balance off. And really, we do have a good balance at 4 people.
But, really, it doesn't sound like they're all that into the game. They probably like hanging out and can enjoy the game when everything comes together in the right circumstances, but it's not sounding like they're into the game itself.
That's what I'm thinking too. I'm thinking it might be a lot better if we find a diplomatic way to get him out of the table and just find another time to get everybody together for random games on a different day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You don't have to be difficult about it, but you know, give a man a fish...
When he doesn't know the answers to something within a fair time frame, just make a ruling. He can't remember if a spell is Close or Medium? Then it's Close, moving on. He can't remember if it's minutes or rounds? Then it's rounds, moving on.
It's not a penalty, it's just for ease of play for everyone else (can't remember the DC for your fireballs? Base DC for a 3rd level spell is 14, that's what we'll call it, moving on). If he wants to figure it out, he can. If you keep doing it for him...
My next advice if you don't want to drop him. Make him a Non-combat PC. Have him be a bard (it's magic and fighting) as long as he sings he does his job. And then he still has a character to roleplay as. But I get the feeling that you need to downgrade his level of impact. Kinda treat him as an NPC with the group. He's not going to change suddenly. If he was going to learn he would have by now, he really doesn't care to get the rules down. Pathfinder isn't really the system for him.
You don't have to be difficult about it, but you know, give a man a fish...
When he doesn't know the answers to something within a fair time frame, just make a ruling. He can't remember if a spell is Close or Medium? Then it's Close, moving on. He can't remember if it's minutes or rounds? Then it's rounds, moving on.
It's not a penalty, it's just for ease of play for everyone else (can't remember the DC for your fireballs? Base DC for a 3rd level spell is 14, that's what we'll call it, moving on). If he wants to figure it out, he can. If you keep doing it for him...
We're not even to that level of literacy with his character though. His spell sheet that I made for him to simplify all of that has everything like that on it. It gives exact ranges, DCs, and even whether or not it can be cast through his sword. It's based off a sheet I made specifically new players in a college D&D/Pathfinder group that I help DM for. He doesn't need to know how to calculate it- he just goes "I want to cast fireball." and then read over two inches on the paper to see "reflex save for 1/2: DC 15." But he doesn't even do that because he doesn't read any of his character sheets.
My next advice if you don't want to drop him. Make him a Non-combat PC. Have him be a bard (it's magic and fighting) as long as he sings he does his job. And then he still has a character to roleplay as. But I get the feeling that you need to downgrade his level of impact. Kinda treat him as an NPC with the group. He's not going to change suddenly. If he was going to learn he would have by now, he really doesn't care to get the rules down. Pathfinder isn't really the system for him.
But, like I've said in other replies, he has his heart set on magus. He doesn't want to be support - he wants to be right in the front of the battle hitting things.
I would say that eventually, you need to let him fail on his own. Maybe he learns well through trial and error. If you keep his spellbook up, if you are the one telling how long invisibility lasts, stop. If he should know by now, and he's not a child, stop being his mommy.
If he doesn't know how to engage in combat properly, and he wades in, what's your usual response? Do you walk him through the process? Do you pull your punches? How would you react if it was a different player at your table that came derping in? The same or different? I'm not suggesting you crush him, but he needs to know that if he wants to play with the big boys and earn the big boy XPs, he's going to have to take his lumps like a big boy.
When it comes to new players and new groups and new characters, I tell people they have a finite set of levels to learn how their character drives (usually 4 or 5 max) and then the training wheels get blown off.
Story time: when my stepdaughter was learning how to play, she had an encounter with her first character where she got dropped unconscious. After getting healed, she kept repeatedly getting up, AoO'd, and dropping again. I tried explaining to her that if she stands up in front of a monster, it gets a free swing at her. A few weeks later, she tried that stunt in front of a boss monster. She didn't get up that time. We talked about it after the encounter, and her second character hasn't attempted that dangerous maneuver.
Sometimes people need to attend the school of hard knocks.
Bard can be in their face as much as a magus can. same hit die, can wear the same armor(using some archetypes), everything can be the same. Arcane duelist, he's the same character that can now sing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not to be harsh (but I'm going to be really harsh, so sorry about that), but it sounds like he's either dumb, lazy, or both. If he doesn't care enough to learn the rules....or read for two whole inches, then he doesn't deserve to play a high tier class like the magus.
What level are you?
Maybe just make him a fighter with a Ring of Prestidigitation or a +1 flaming sword or keen shocking burst scimitar.
Heck, since he doesn't know the rules, just make him a dumbed-down version of the magus. Drop spells per day, arcane pool, and arcana, and just give him some at will stuff and maybe some 1/day abilities.
Maybe just come up with a bunch of swift action 1 round buffs he can use. Maybe 1 per level, one that will give you +1d6 to damage, one will give you +4 AC, one will give you invisiblity for 1 round.
Heck, see if a ninja would work for him.
Or make him a barbarian with "magic" rage powers. He's not reading the books, so he doesn't know that Rolling Dodge isn't magic, he just gets a bonus to AC. Stuff like that.
Sounds to me like he wants a rules lite game, rather than pathfinder. I don't think there's an easy way around it - part of playing pathfinder is processing a lot of information and knowing where to look that information up. You've done a lot for him, by the sounds, but you can't make him access the clearly presented information.
I guess you could try refusing to answer his "how long does invisibility last?" questions - ie tell him that it's on the sheet - next to the words "invisibility" and "duration".
Its hard to put oneself in his shoes though - if it were me, with all these questions about whether I really wanted to play, I think I'd be embarrassed to still be asking people to read my character sheet for me. :/
Not to be harsh (but I'm going to be really harsh, so sorry about that), but it sounds like he's either dumb, lazy, or both. If he doesn't care enough to learn the rules....or read for two whole inches, then he doesn't deserve to play a high tier class like the magus.
I really think it's just lazy/not really interested in the game. I've simplified his sheet down for him to the point I can't simplify it any more. At this point, I really think he's just wanting to hang out.
What level are you?
We just hit lv 7. That's part of my hesitance to change his class. He's not reading the basic stuff for his current class... at this point, any class we pick for him is going to have a lot of stuff he can do (fighters will have tons of feat options, bards will still have several spells. We already have a rogue and a ranger... I really can't think of anything else simple enough to give him.)
Sounds to me like he wants a rules lite game, rather than pathfinder. I don't think there's an easy way around it - part of playing pathfinder is processing a lot of information and knowing where to look that information up. You've done a lot for him, by the sounds, but you can't make him access the clearly presented information.
I guess you could try refusing to answer his "how long does invisibility last?" questions - ie tell him that it's on the sheet - next to the words "invisibility" and "duration".
Its hard to put oneself in his shoes though - if it were me, with all these questions about whether I really wanted to play, I think I'd be embarrassed to still be asking people to read my character sheet for me. :/
Yeah, he's one of the very few people that I am starting to think D&D4e might be good for. Super lite rule system in combat.
As for the invisibility - that's exactly what I told him. He wasn't exactly thrilled, but I explained that "F'ut (the character's name) is YOUR character. You need to play him, not us. You need to know what you can do, otherwise he's not really your character, he's ours."
I think the point was made with that, but it's just really hard to find the right balance toward pushing him to know his character and being a bit b~%&~y (which, frankly, I tend to err on the latter side of that with repeated problems). He's a really fantastic guy, and he would be a brilliant roleplayer. I just really wish he could get into the shoes of something LG, because then I'd just hand him my paladin and say "always ask if it's evil. If it is, and it's also big and ugly. smite it. Bonuses for that are here. That's all"
1. Did he start at level 1 or did he start with a higher level character? He may need to start from level 1 if not.
2. I would start the game at a certain time no matter if he was there or not, or you can just wait for him to show up, and them drive over to where the game is. Alternately someone can offer to give him a ride. I would also address him being late, and find out why he thinks it is ok.
3. Also asking if he is interested may not be the best question. I would ask him why he has trouble learning the character, and as a reference to point 2, why is he not able to be on time.
I would say that eventually, you need to let him fail on his own. Maybe he learns well through trial and error. If you keep his spellbook up, if you are the one telling how long invisibility lasts, stop. If he should know by now, and he's not a child, stop being his mommy.
If he doesn't know how to engage in combat properly, and he wades in, what's your usual response? Do you walk him through the process? Do you pull your punches? How would you react if it was a different player at your table that came derping in? The same or different? I'm not suggesting you crush him, but he needs to know that if he wants to play with the big boys and earn the big boy XPs, he's going to have to take his lumps like a big boy.
When it comes to new players and new groups and new characters, I tell people they have a finite set of levels to learn how their character drives (usually 4 or 5 max) and then the training wheels get blown off.
Well, I only keep track of his spell sheet at this point because I made it in Excel, and he doesn't have that software. But I also don't mind, because it really doesn't take a lot of work. When we level up, he picks his new spells and sends them to me to add.
As for combat stuff, it's a bit harder than that. I'm not the DM, so I don't know if punches are being pulled, but we're also playing Wrath of the Righteous, fighting hoards of demons, and I'm the paladin. So I'm the one that gets most of the targeting.
That said, there's also a lot of mass combat in WotR, so the number of actual player battles is pretty slim too.
Yeah, he's one of the very few people that I am starting to think D&D4e might be good for. Super lite rule system in combat.
No, I think it might actually be worse. The general action economy is easier, but the array of power choices is not easier at all, nor are all of the status effects. They're a pain to keep track of past 10th level and it doesn't seem he's invested enough to be able to manage it.
5e would probably be a better edition for him, I think.
1. Did he start at level 1 or did he start with a higher level character? He may need to start from level 1 if not.
2. I would start the game at a certain time no matter if he was there or not, or you can just wait for him to show up, and them drive over to where the game is. Alternately someone can offer to give him a ride. I would also address him being late, and find out why he thinks it is ok.
3. Also asking if he is interested may not be the best question. I would ask him why he has trouble learning the character, and as a reference to point 2, why is he not able to be on time.
We all started at lv 1. At lv 4, the DM let us respec things because I was the only one that had any experience with Pathfinder. (Our other two players were familiar with tabletop RPGs though - one had been a D&D player for a very long time, the other had played the Dragon Age table rpg).
Well he's either on time or cancels because of other plans at the last minute. It's not that he just keeps showing up chronically late exactly.
Does your DM runs or plans to run WotR as written or cranck it up 4 or 5 notches?
I'm chronically late for things, but it doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what's going on. If the player is just missing the session entirely that implies a lack of interest, but maybe it could be just a scheduling problem. If your games are on weekends it might be tough for players and particularly young players to avoid making other plans. If Ms. Hottie wants to go to the beach/bar/movies/restaurant Mr. Hornypants might need to cancel the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Story time (2):
I have a player with adhd, he's been playing a ranger for roughly a year and a bard the year before.
when he started playing pathfinder with us I was helping him out a lot, in the start everybody was in a grace period and I allowed retrainings and do-overs to ensure that people were playing what they wanted to play and not what they had mistakenly thought they wanted to play at the start.
During this time he was all over the place;
forgetting basic rules? yep.
couldn't find anything except his name and ability scores on the sheet? yup.
And after he started getting some grasp of the rules (he still declares 5ft-steps every turn regardless of if he has moved or not before)he was hit by a severe case of the "oooh, shiny"-syndrome and would ask to retrain /multiclass in a thousand different directions.
So eventually, after spending an entire evening at my place making his respecced build (a bard/cavalieer/battle herald, that was into whips but not chains) he turned up the next game with a completely new idea (that he of course hadn't checked the rules for).
At which point I got fed up, I had cancelled plans and made room in a busy schedule to 'tutor' him and he still didn't know his ass from his head. So I told him that it wasn't my job to make his character work, and I enforced there and then a house rule (for the group) sounding roughly like this:
"If you don't know what you're doing this turn-I skip you (10 second count).
If you want to use a special ablity/feat/spell it's your job to have the facts ready, if not it doesn't work.
I will not interfer with your leveling and all choices are final."
After that I refused to spend extra time on him instead of other players and I shot down any attempts to make me do his homework, I pretty much told him indirectly "Step up or GTFO".
In this case it worked, after some harsh rejections and realizations he started picking up the slack, started reading up on rules and learned to be more patient about his character.
(a lot of his issues were "character envy": when somebody else did something cool he wanted to do the same, regardless of class and build.)
He is still a bit of a ditz and he still has challenges but he has learned most of the basics and is a better player.
tl;dr: I had a similiar player, after I stopped babying him, he started improving, he still has a low system mastery, but he does his best.
So sometimes people improve, but they need time.
As a side note: spells are not easy for newbies to handle it seems, so as others have pointed out - the magus is not a good fit.
I personally feel that the ranger is the most newbie-friendly class.
But of course, my player Really wanted to play and was very motivated.
bonus story:
Same player was always late, so I begun starting the game regardless of how many players were present. (or at least when half of the group is present, because storytelling to an empty room is just a fancy way of talking to yourself)
He has improved.
Sounds to me like he wants a rules lite game, rather than pathfinder. I don't think there's an easy way around it - part of playing pathfinder is processing a lot of information and knowing where to look that information up. You've done a lot for him, by the sounds, but you can't make him access the clearly presented information.
I guess you could try refusing to answer his "how long does invisibility last?" questions - ie tell him that it's on the sheet - next to the words "invisibility" and "duration".
Its hard to put oneself in his shoes though - if it were me, with all these questions about whether I really wanted to play, I think I'd be embarrassed to still be asking people to read my character sheet for me. :/
Yeah, he's one of the very few people that I am starting to think D&D4e might be good for. Super lite rule system in combat.
As for the invisibility - that's exactly what I told him. He wasn't exactly thrilled, but I explained that "F'ut (the character's name) is YOUR character. You need to play him, not us. You need to know what you can do, otherwise he's not really your character, he's ours."
I think the point was made with that, but it's just really hard to find the right balance toward pushing him to know his character and being a bit b~##&y (which, frankly, I tend to err on the latter side of that with repeated problems). He's a really fantastic guy, and he would be a brilliant roleplayer. I just really wish he could get into the shoes of something LG, because then I'd just hand him my paladin and say "always ask if it's evil. If it is, and it's also big and ugly. smite it. Bonuses for that are here. That's all"
There's only so much you can do. Personally, I think you've done more than your fair share - he has something of a social responsibility to make at least some of the effort.
Not much real advice to offer, I'm afraid. Other than "keep doing what you're doing until it becomes more trouble than it's worth".
Well, the problem was that our player really wanted to be magical in some way. We were trying to find a balance between overwhelming him with spell listings, but letting him have some magic.
...
He wanted magic, so we tried to give him a more limited magic to not overwhelm him. ..
Honestly, I think magus was a poor choice for this. About half of the experienced players that I know have trouble keeping track of all the things a magus might/should/could do in a round. They have some really fiddly rules that are fairly complex.
Add on mythic and I can see a lot of people just giving up.
Did he really need spells or did he just want some unusual powers.
I've know at least 2 players that want some wild powers, but don't want the hassle of a spells (especially not a prepared spellbook caster).
The one usually runs a pretty standard two-handed weapon fighter (or maybe a ranger). BUT he has eldritch heritage chain for some weird powers like wings, claws, sonic rays, globs of protoplasm, etc...
As GM, I even let him take more than 1 eldritch heritage chain as long as he takes the correct skill focus pre-requisite. So he uses his free bonus feats for the combat style and the rest for Eldritch Heritage feats.
The other now plays a bloodrager since it only gets a few spells and he just picks simple self buffs. He has a sheet for standard times. And he has a completely separate sheet for when raging. He is also planning on getting the Buff Deck so he can have a card sitting right in front of him as a reminder of what exactly his spells do.
Some of the barbarian rage powers could seem pretty close to magical abilities.
Ask him if he might prefer something a little less complex but still with some fantastical powers. If he says yes, we can certainly help you come up with some builds.
I'm not as familiar with mythic, but doesn't it have a lot of options that are just static bonuses that can be added in all the time?
Other thing I want to ask. Not trying to be insulting or anything like that. But is it possible that he has a reading problem? Some of what you described sounds kinda like a person that doesn't read well and doesn't want to admit it.
At his next level up, do not provide him with a sheet update. Make him do it. Then have the DM tell him that to gain his level he has to go through an Academy trial or something to prove his worth of holding the new level. Kind of like how the old Druid used to work. Have the DM run a session with just him participating with no help from the group and see how he does. Give him notice and allow him to prepare, but make him run the character... alone... against multiple fights (not to the death obviously) ranging from easy to hard... simple to elaborate. Throw different attacks and defenses at him that he *can* and *should* be able to handle. Give him magic healing between rounds. At the end grant him his level and a result 1) Poor = he has to do it all over again next level 2) Ok = he has to do it all over again in 2 or 3 levels 3) Good = he has to do it again in 8 levels 4) Great = he probably won't ever have to do it again. Remember, the goal is that he learn/display knowledge of the character, not that he dislay great combat tactics.
Challenge him... either he'll step up or he'll fall. If he falls and gets back up to try again, excellent. Otherwise, he's probably not really interested in the game or his character. You can mix non-combat encounters into the challenge if you feel it is warranted, though most people don't need encouragement on that part of the rules/play.
If falls and he really just wants to "hang out" (and the group is ok with that), then bring in the fifth player and demote this guy to a role he can be useful and still have fun. Bard as mentioned (though I would't do that personally), perhaps an NPC of lower level that shows up when another character takes the Leadership feat. (If he wants to be babied, give him an in-game baby-sitter) If he's not going to learn rules and options, don't have him play a character that has them. Stick to Fighter and allow him to "graduate" to a more complex class when he proves he's able. As much heat as the Fighter gets for being behind on the power curve, this is *the* example for why it exists as it is. And really, just make him an archer and give him a decent supply of magic ammo and he'll be just fine in combat without getting in the way or slowing things down. If you do take this route, be very clear about *why* the changes are being forced on him... don't sugar coat it, don't be mean about it, just be honest.
If he really wants a caster, it is possible to build an oracle or sorcerer that is relatively simple to play, survivable, and effective. Simple and/or static bloodline abilities, group buff spells (that the other players then need to keep track of not him), heals, and out of combat utility spells.
I would also have to suggest bard with an archetype that focuses on combat rather than the singing and support. Or maybe skald, though I haven't looked at it enough to know how complex that is compared to Magus. Create a build with either or both and have him try it for one session to see if he likes it any better than the magus. A lot of people, especially new people, aren't going to automatically understand that archetypes can often be used quite effectively to get the same type of character in a different base class. Having him try something else for one or two sessions as a test run could help him understand that there are other ways to accomplish the overall feel of the magus with less complexity.
This is a common occurrence with anyone who didn't really grow up playing these type of games. There is a process to fully "getting" what is needed to play, and there are probably times where an otherwise would-be-very-good-at-DnD person just doesn't make it past that hurdle. Remember that, compared to what most people do when they hang out or have a party - there is considerable effort that goes into DnD games - along with the fact that everyone is more or less expected to have decent competency is what's going on. Think of any other card game (I don't mean CCGs), sports team (a work team for example, not pro), beer pong, even a fantasy football league, etc - all of those activities by nature have a few players that don't really know what's going on and need help the whole way through until the games done - and these are much simpler games. That is considered normal to everyone involved. That is most likely the common mindset of people when it comes to games. That difference alone takes awhile to dawn on even the smartest people.
This will take time to get better. Remember two things:
1. Take a consistent, fair-but-firm approach to dealing with the constant lack of character knowledge. He will have to find incentive to learn it to put the effort in. Keep telling him to look things up and suffer consequences of not remembering or being more prepared (i.e. "ok, sorry, moving on..."). This should create incentive to want faster ways of knowing, like the cheat sheets.
2. In doing so, you have to first let go and know that him deciding not to play is a real possibility. This is very important.
If he really just wants to hang out... then there's no changing that, at least not quickly.
People can get overwhelmed, but most fixes ruin identifying with character>immersion>fun.
1) When my players wield their character sheets like a three-handed weapon, I've had good results with a separate "Attack Options" sheet.
I have them group by actions, include calculated bonuses. They then have something clear - with bullet point answers to the DM's question: what do you do?
2) Make it clear you want the experience to be enjoyable for everyone, then ask specifically what he wants his character to be able to "do" in game.
If his expectations are not doable, let him know. Otherwise, guiding him on the right choices for character creation becomes a lot easier - AND (if problems continue) you then better know if the "issues" are irreconcilable.
Picking up the rules can be very complicated especially if you are starting with one of the more complex classes. We all have to start somewhere, I know I was horrible when I first started. But what troubles me more than this player's lack of grasp with the rules is the fact that you stated he is constantly late and tends to make other plans. Even though he says he really wants to play those actions tell me otherwise. I went through the same thing with a friend of mine last year and after session after session of delaying the game for him only to have him send a text that he would be there in a half hour then pull a no show I simply stopped informing him when we were playing. He was interfereing too much with the fun of those of us who do vaule the game and make the effort to show up at the determined time so it was time to make the cut.