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I'm interested in playing a Drow Monk,but i'm not interested in playing an evil character,is Drow alignment set in stone or can I pick my alignment. This may be a dumb question,but i'm still new to PF so any help would be appreciated.Thanks.
The official line is something like: drow are a transformed race, intrinsically evil, but that does not preclude a player from working something out with his GM.
Basically, they avoid putting non-evil drow as NPCs in products, because that's something they think should be a very special case, and probably belonging to a player character.
So, this is a "check with the GM" situation.
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I thought all Drow were Lawful Good?
Backround:I'm thinking he was left to die,but saved by monks and raised as such.Does this seem somewhat viable for a PC?
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Backround:I'm thinking he was left to die,but saved by monks and raised as such.Does this seem somewhat viable for a PC?Left the die where though? Drow live deep in the Darklands. 9999 out of 10000 Golarionites have never even heard of Drow, let alone seen one.
You really think it's that common?
Backround:I'm thinking he was left to die,but saved by monks and raised as such.Does this seem somewhat viable for a PC?Left the die where though? Drow live deep in the Darklands. 9999 out of 10000 Golarionites have never even heard of Drow, let alone seen one.
Good point,hadn't thought about that.Guess i'll have to give this some more thought.Thanks for the info.That sucks thought I could make this work.
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This isn't really a rules question. This is a question for your GM.
Generally speaking, the answer based on cannon Golarion setting is that good Drow are not known to exist.
Also, you're back story of "survied" and raised by monks doesn't really works as the darklands, where drow reside, are many miles below the surface. Hell, it should be one hell of a story to provide a reason why drow would be on the surface world. At least, in my opinion.
Good point,hadn't thought about that.Guess i'll have to give this some more thought.Thanks for the info.That sucks thought I could make this work.Backround:I'm thinking he was left to die,but saved by monks and raised as such.Does this seem somewhat viable for a PC?Left the die where though? Drow live deep in the Darklands. 9999 out of 10000 Golarionites have never even heard of Drow, let alone seen one.
Eh. Any playable race can be any alignment you want to play, so long as you work it out with the GM. One of my players is currently playing a drow. Even the drow character herself has never heard of drow (she's adopted). And we're playing in an area where drow don't inhabit, so there's no inherent prejudice towards her character.
You can most certainly play it, just work it out with your GM. At the very least, the rules allow for it.
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Here's a backstory for you (which would be unknown to your character):
A group of adventurers went to the under dark and killed a bunch of drow. They found you as an infant, and being good people, they refused to slaughter babies. So they took you back to the surface and dropped you off at a monastery to be raised by monks.
As far as you know and the monks know, they found you on their doorsteps and raised you as their own. They themselves having never heard of drow, they didn't have any prejudice against you nor did they treat you bad for being a drow.
If you want to stick to the nature of the evil drow, you could say the the Evil nature of your race combined the the Good nurturing of the monks balanced out, and your character is Neutral in alignment.
Any free-willed creature chooses its own path in life.
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Well it depends on the setting , assuming default Golarion:
It's very hard. Drow is matriarchy society which literally breed evil. Every Drow who deviates from the path, showing neutrality or even being good is heavily punished and if they can't dissuade you, they simply kill you.
Pretty sure, the authors went hardcore on the evil, for legacy reasons and because they didn't want to deal with the Drizz't clones.
Now, of course if your DM want to allow a good Drow, good for him, well have fun but in the default Golarion setting...yeah it's tough being a Drow.
Just say no to playing Drizzt 254876.0. No good will come of being the overpowered prime target.
*eyeroll*
Yes, because that's the only possible characterization for a not-evil Drow. pfft.
They found you as an infant, and being good people, they refused to slaughter babies.The important question here is: Did the paladin fell or what?
Hey! I remember that thread! From last year, right? And the year before. And the year before that, and before that. And that. And that...
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At the time Greyhawk and Faerun were developed, a majority of Americans were opposed to the idea of interracial marriage.
I don't know that the majority of Americans were opposed to interracial marriage when Greyhawk and Faerun were developed. Late 1970s through the early 1980s? While I realize it wasn't nearly as widely accepted then as it is today, I find the claim that "the majority of Americans were opposed to [it]" to be an exaggeration.
At the time Tolkien was writing, racial discrimination was even more widely accepted among his intended (white) audience. The notion of "light-skin is Good, dark skin is Evil" seemed normal to Tolkien's contemporaries. With that in mind, it isn't surprising that the same racial prejudices were deemed 'correct' by his work.
I'm not sure where this is found in Tolkien's work. There are no dark-skinned elves in Tolkien's writings, and the only elves referred to as "dark elves" are those elves that never made the journey west towards Valinor. Orcs were sometimes described as "black," but I don't believe it was ever implied that ALL orcs had black skin. (Black blood, yes; I guess that may tint their skin?) I suppose he did describe the Southrons and Easterlings as "swarthy," but I don't believe there was ever any indication that they were inherently evil. In fact, Faramir wonders about one of the dead Harradrim after the ambush in Ithilien, asking if the dead man was evil or what violence or threats lead him on the long road to Mordor. If Tolkien was working to reinforce some perceived standard that dark-skin=Evil, he wouldn't have had one of the central characters questioning that exact notion so openly.
All that being said, yes, one can most certainly play a non-evil Drow in PFRPG. I wonder if OP is looking for a Noble Drow or a "normal" Drow? The GM should disallow a Noble Drow regardless of alignment.
^I thought that after the Advanced Race Guide came out, the accepted way of getting a Noble Drow was to upgrade a normal Drow with the Drow Nobility chain of feats? It is a fairly high feat tax and doesn't give ability scores as good as the pre-ARG Noble Drow, so it shouldn't be brokenly strong.
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In Golarion, an Elf can actually be so evil, that they turn into Drow.
This is, of course, rare.
Drow are the result of the briefly awakened conscience of Rovagug touching the minds of Elves, as their bodies were warped by eldritch radiation within the Caves of the Craven in the Darklands.
They are touched by the greatest evil god of destruction, and it's taint follows through each generation, mind, body, and spirit.
Drow are not evil, simply by choice, or cultural pressure, but rather it is a part of their being.
In Golarion, an Elf can actually be so evil, that they turn into Drow.
This is, of course, rare.
Drow are the result of the briefly awakened conscience of Rovagug touching the minds of Elves, as their bodies were warped by eldritch radiation within the Caves of the Craven in the Darklands.
They are touched by the greatest evil god of destruction, and it's taint follows through each generation, mind, body, and spirit.
Drow are not evil, simply by choice, or cultural pressure, but rather it is a part of their being.
Per the wiki, that only applies to the original drow.
Sins of the father?
In Golarion, an Elf can actually be so evil, that they turn into Drow.
This is, of course, rare.
Drow are the result of the briefly awakened conscience of Rovagug touching the minds of Elves, as their bodies were warped by eldritch radiation within the Caves of the Craven in the Darklands.
They are touched by the greatest evil god of destruction, and it's taint follows through each generation, mind, body, and spirit.
Drow are not evil, simply by choice, or cultural pressure, but rather it is a part of their being.
I could have sworn I read somewhere that a Good Drow becomes just a normal Elf. This must be what I was remembering.
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Good Drow, are like good Ogres.
Theoretically, they could exist, but unlikely, and rare, at best.
Remember, Drow are great fans of alchemical fleshwarping, and experiment often.
The discovery of a Drow, that could be considered "good", would likely be a prized experiment subject.
If they survived, their minds would likely be twisted away towards evil, or even a near mindless state.
Well, you could, conceivably, have an abstinent Lawful Good Ogre Paladin.
It's just is not that likely.
Golarion is not Forgotten Realms. There is no good Drow goddess.
Well, that's why it's reserved for PC's. They're the rare and unique ones.
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Basically, if you want to play a special snowflake, then just admit that is what it is.
I've had a guy try to convince me Tigers are naturally vegetarians, but are forced to eat meat, because of their environment.
Don't be that guy.
Ok dude; you're now comparing reality with a fantasy setting to "prove" your point. Don't be that guy.
It's a fantasy game, if he wants to play a good aligned drow, he can. His fun in a fantasy setting has nothing to do with reality or nature here on Earth.
Don't be a dick about it.
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Frankly a monk makes it easier for an evil race to become nonevil, even good. Drow society is a wicked and cruel one, it's just natural that some might want to get away from it at some point. Not necessarily because of weakness, but because it's tiresome and everyone likes a bit of rest sometimes. Then comes the discovery of an alternative world, where one can achieve inner strength, unity with the cosmos and whatnot through a totally opposite behaviour - aiding others instead of fighting and scheming against them.
Non-evil drow are very rare, as drow society actively kills them.
And the Winter Council actively kills all drow, evil or otherwise, on the surface.
So there's relatively few places where a non-evil drow could even grow up.
Nex (where anything can be a citizen), Kaer Maga (where damn near anything can find a home), or something like the seclusive monastery mentioned by the OP could all work.
Drow worship demon lords. In WotR, the two main Demon lords have a Drow and a female Dryder as the head cleric of their respective cults.
Even the Iconic good drow Drizzt (in a setting with a CG Drow Deity) is a major anomaly. If memory serves (been long time since read his "coming to the surface" books), Drizzt was banished from his family/society just for expressing Non-evil (neutral) behavior. Then his mother sent his undead zombie lord father out into the underdark to murder him, since his mere existence was a blight on the family even after his exile. Only on his journey to the surface, befriending a Sverfneblin does Drizzt make the final leap to Good.
If it was my game I wouldn't allow it. 1) it violates the verisimilitude of the setting, 2) it's boring. Everyone at the table will groan and think less of you for playing a good drow. That being said if you DM is ok with it, and you think it is fun. Then do it.
At the time Tolkien was writing, racial discrimination was even more widely accepted among his intended (white) audience. The notion of "light-skin is Good, dark skin is Evil" seemed normal to Tolkien's contemporaries. With that in mind, it isn't surprising that the same racial prejudices were deemed 'correct' by his work.I'm not sure where this is found in Tolkien's work. There are no dark-skinned elves in Tolkien's writings, and the only elves referred to as "dark elves" are those elves that never made the journey west towards Valinor. Orcs were sometimes described as "black," but I don't believe it was ever implied that ALL orcs had black skin. (Black blood, yes; I guess that may tint their skin?) I suppose he did describe the Southrons and Easterlings as "swarthy," but I don't believe there was ever any indication that they were inherently evil. In fact, Faramir wonders about one of the dead Harradrim after the ambush in Ithilien, asking if the dead man was evil or what violence or threats lead him on the long road to Mordor. If Tolkien was working to reinforce some perceived standard that dark-skin=Evil, he wouldn't have had one of the central characters questioning that exact notion so openly.
There's a lot to legitimately criticize in Tolkien, and Faramir's moment of speculation doesn't buy him a complete pass.
I'm a big fan of Prof T myself, but I would never claim that there is no racial subtext for his writing. I certainly wouldn't claim that he was enlightened on the issue, not from that one passage. Ethnic determinism is pretty much hard coded into his setting.
So many of the themes established in those writings have been passed down to assumptions in race-based fantasy settings today. Ask Mikaze. :)
Sometimes when discussing literature we need to accept that the writers and indeed the zeitgeist of a beloved book was tainted by an outmoded world view.
I don't believe that Prof T was aiming to reinforce stereotypes. I do believe he was steeped in Occidental and Euro-centric mythology, and his myths retained a certain xenophobia that lead to the portrayal of orcs and the Haradrim -- Faramir's thoughts address this as something of an afterthought.
All of this has very little to do with Drow, anyway. But Tolkien is not beyond reproach on issues of race. We do well not to treat such things superficially.
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Basically, if you want to play a special snowflake, then just admit that is what it is.
I've had a guy try to convince me Tigers are naturally vegetarians, but are forced to eat meat, because of their environment.
Don't be that guy.
Ok dude; you're now comparing reality with a fantasy setting to "prove" your point. Don't be that guy.
It's a fantasy game, if he wants to play a good aligned drow, he can. His fun in a fantasy setting has nothing to do with reality or nature here on Earth.
Don't be a dick about it.
I think you read that the wrong way.
I never said there was anything wrong, or anyone shouldn't have fun.
I am saying, don't be the guy fighting against the established Golarion lore, that the group has agreed upon, just to somehow prove your truly unique character "makes sense".
Just admit your PC is an oddity. He is one of the heroes.
That is all that is required for your PC's unique nature to "make sense".
My example was to compare one who argued a completely false fact, for the sake of an agenda.
If that example offends you, I am sorry, but you could do better than to just call people names.
I am confident that you are capable of more. :)
Basically, if you want to play a special snowflake, then just admit that is what it is.
I've had a guy try to convince me Tigers are naturally vegetarians, but are forced to eat meat, because of their environment.
Don't be that guy.
Ok dude; you're now comparing reality with a fantasy setting to "prove" your point. Don't be that guy.
It's a fantasy game, if he wants to play a good aligned drow, he can. His fun in a fantasy setting has nothing to do with reality or nature here on Earth.
Don't be a dick about it.
I think you read that the wrong way.
I never said there was anything wrong, or anyone shouldn't have fun.
I am saying, don't be the guy fighting against the established Golarion lore, that the group has agreed upon, just to somehow prove your truly unique character "makes sense".
Just admit your PC is an oddity. He is one of the heroes.
That is all that is required for your PC's unique nature to "make sense".
My example was to compare one who argued a completely false fact, for the sake of an agenda.
If that example offends you, I am sorry, but you could do better than to just call people names.
I am confident that you are capable of more. :)
Now that makes good sense; if that's what you meant to convey the first time, it did not come across as such. It very much came across as dickish (especially when you use a condescending phrase like special snowflake, rather than the "oddity and a hero" you used the second time around). I apologize for the name calling.
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I think you should try a Drow-Descended (Racial Subtype) Half-Elf - might provide a BIT more reasonability to the concept.
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Well, that's why it's reserved for PC's. They're the rare and unique ones.
As a GM I prefer my players to be unique by "growing up" in the game world (thorugh level) and going from unknowns to powerful characters which are unique and interesting because of their action they have taken and their accomplishments, not because of their racial selection.
But perhaps that is just me.
One way is not necessarily correct, but I'm not a fan of non-core races. Especially ones that rub against the setting material so deeply.
If the GM is fine with the OPs request so be it, but I wouldn't allow it. Now, if there was a campaign setting which is a dungeon delve into the Underdark I would consider allowing a player to play a Drow (evil or otherwise) which joins the party. But that is much less of a stretch to me than a good drow on the surface world.
Let me clarify, 1)playing a Monk appeals to me from a roleplaying point of view,I understand the majority of people dislike the monk from a mechanical point of view,but i'm not obsessive about max. damage I want an interesting character to PLAY.2)Drow seemed like a great racial choice because not everyone is doing it,and again it's a matter of roleplay(me vs. the prejudice of most Galorians).For better or worse I think this would be an interesting roleplay opportunity (no other agenda other than that).I also believe the interactions with other characters and their distrust for Drow will also make for some fun and interesting interactions within the group.like I said,roleplaying opportunities,not one shot kills.And let me take a moment to thank everybody for their input,please keep it coming,i'm interested in all intelligent points of view,especially since I am still very new to the game and have about a bajillion more questions that i'll save for the appropriate time
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Is there any official developer commentary that they made Drow in Golarian 'Evil with a Capital E and an exclamation point on the end' to avoid Drizzt syndrome?
Because if that's true, I think it's the entirely wrong way to go around it. Wouldn't the best way to avoid a bunch of Drizzt clones be NOT making every Drow baby-eating evil? Have Drow capable of being evil, good, and neutral, just like humans. Say their society is a Social Darwinist Nightmare full of political infighting and skullduggery that makes the worst of moden electoral processes look like an episode of Barney and Friends, but the individual is just as capable of independent thought as any other. Then when somebody tries to play a Chaotic Good Drow angsting over trying to overcome his race's prejudices, have him meet a drow alchemist merchant who wonders why he's so damn moody.
Then again, I'm really not fond of Pathfinder's attempt to make the various 'evil' races irrevocably super-evil. But that's what homemade campaign worlds are for.
Pretty sure the description of the Drow (playable) race says that most are Chaotic Evil - it doesn't say all. The same section on the Elf says that 'most are Chaotic Good' - does that mean you can't play a neutral elf? Most dwarves are Lawful Good. you see my point.
Now, the specifics of the Golarion setting go a bit beyond this - but setting is up to the GM.
If my understanding is correct, the lore on Drow is as follows:
1) The Starstone is called to Golarion by the ancient Aboleths, causing Earthfall
2) The elves learn of the impending asteroid about to hit Golarion
3) Most elves flee through teleportation gates, which transport them back to them ancestral home of Sovyrian, on the planet of Castrovel (which is one or two planets away from Golarion in the same solar system). Yes, the elves are aliens.
4) Some elves remain on Golarion refusing to abandon their new home. These elves instead retreat deep underground, into the Underdark to avoid the impending destruciton.
5) Within the Underdark the eventually come into contact with the prison that holds Rovagug, the chaotic evil god of absolute destruction and irredeemable evil. This twists and changes them, and they become Drow. Separate and distinct from normal elves.