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Would such a thread really need to be stickied for the benefit of new entrants, though?
Yes.
RPGSS has always been a helpful community. Three people answered the question and did so without sounding patronizing (at least to me). The average new entrant may not read that far into the threads, but if they do it they will start with the sticky threads.Not only would such a thread provide answers to questions, but it is a welcoming gesture. That is, it shows that questions are welcome and supported. In turn, an individual feels welcome and supported (especially a new individual). Hopefully it is a legacy of Clark that stays with the contest.
It is an important part of RPGSS.
If you have "appears to be", "will", "can", "may" in your text, rework it to remove them. These phrases make your description weaker than it should be (they are known as obvious signs of passive writing) and often allude to a writer being unsure about something - not knowing how to express what they want to say.
As a concrete example, how would you rework powers that grant an optional ability, such as the Metamagic Rods' ability "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are maximized as though using the Maximize Spell feat."?
Filigree?
Yeah "can" is not so quite so much frowned upon but it can (sic) be used passively in description and flavor, so do be careful if you do use it...
In answer to DeciusBrutus, how to rewrite that sample without "can" as an exercise... here goes...
The rod allows up to three spells per day to be maximized as Maximize Spell.
Note that above, I shortened the last bit - because the feat is capitalized in the descriptive text, we know it is a feat, (spells would be italicized for example). I could have left it the same but thought it worth showing as an alternate wording.
Sometimes, referring to things can be shortened - always check for similar wording, capitalization and formatting and use the same structures as similar wording the books already use.
Another predicted cliche: Weapons/armors that adapt to always give you the bonuses you want. I expect a few +1 whatever-you-happen-to-be-fighting-at-the-moment bane swords.
Oh my, Besmara!
Are you actually allowing me to avoid the cliche and meme this year?
*falls off chair in shock and amazement*
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Another predicted cliche: Weapons/armors that adapt to always give you the bonuses you want. I expect a few +1 whatever-you-happen-to-be-fighting-at-the-moment bane swords.
This is just me, but something like that, left unfettered, could very well get down-voted by me. An ability like that could trivialize a lot of the game unless it came with a considerable limitation, like 1 per day.
Soul stealing swords and Armor as Mecha!
Another predicted cliche: Weapons/armors that adapt to always give you the bonuses you want. I expect a few +1 whatever-you-happen-to-be-fighting-at-the-moment bane swords.This is just me, but something like that, left unfettered, could very well get down-voted by me. An ability like that could trivialize a lot of the game unless it came with a considerable limitation, like 1 per day.
I am 100% sure that was RDN's point =)
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Maybe we should have a go at defining what a Superstar item is maybe?
Here's a starter - I am very likely to have forgotten some things and I fully expect others to add to the list ;)
It should be as many of the following as can be managed... and if it manages all of them, well, enough said!
- It should be fun (the obvious number 1).
- It should be unique in some special way.
- It should make you go "cool" when you see it for voting, every time you see it.
- It should be surprising, exciting, firing the readers imagination
- It should be desireable but not munchkinly so.
- It should not be overly complex.
- Where it breaks the normal rules, it should do so without breaking the whole game.
- It should be technically competent, exhibiting the designer has a solid grasp of the game rules.
- Fellow competitors should think - "Why didn't I think of that?"
- It must follow the rules of the round.
- US English should be attempted as best the writer is currently able to.
- It should be for Pathfinder.
- An attempt to apply the template was made, even if it has a mistake or two.
Interestingly, I have not mentioned anything that it shouldn't be - why? Because this is a list of what it should be.
Also note, all of the considerations in this list are higher then whether your template use was perfect - yup, and that's from the Template Fu.
Shiny Superstarness trumps template - EVERY time.
I'd add another one: It should do something new, not just give you plusses to things you can already do.
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If the cliches are done well and are cooler than the item its paired against then I'm still going to vote for it.
RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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Everyone who has voted in previous RPG Superstar competitions knows that there are some item concepts that keep showing up, no matter how many times they've been done before, or how many times people are warned against them. But with the switch to other types of magic items, how might those cliches change? Here are my predictions:
On the way out:
-Magic Walkie-Talkies (they'll still be here, mostly as rings, but I predict a lot less of them)
-Camping items
...What are your predictions?
Yay to no more camping and walkie-talkie items! I imagine there will be greatly reduced w-t rings (to none), we have a great big toy box to build in.
Otherwise, I believe your list is spot on.
With rods and staves, I imagine filigree will be back in spades.
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RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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I'm guessing there will be quite a few conspicuously wondrous-item-like magic items. (However it should be noted - as discussed in another thread - repurposing is 100% fine if you do it so well no-one will notice what the item originally was.)
My greatest fear is that they will look repurposed but are not, that will be sad for those items. However, that's why we have the "critique my item" threads, so it's all good!
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RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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Loving this thread so far.
Post
Checks against design - nope, I'm not that
More posts
Checks against design - nope, I'm not that
More posts
Checks against design - nope, I'm not that
... grin.
I have one, sort of :-(
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I know this is your first time entering, so let me be the first to say...
"Welcome to the land of second guessing oneself. Enjoy!" :P
I am on my 15th second guessing of myself...
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I am putting money on greater invisibility rings, that are cursed...
I am putting money on greater invisibility rings, that are cursed...Hey, I have this totally awesome idea for a new, original magic item! Prized by deformed halflings who refer to themselves in first-person-plural, this is a ring of invisibility, that actually hides the essence of an evil wizard, and slowly corrupts anyone who wears it, and controls a bunch of other rings, and is invulnerable to all damage unless it is dropped in a volcano, which can only be done by halflings....
I should be allowed to have my awakened Giant Eagle cohort destroy it instead! I call bad design on this one!
I am putting money on greater invisibility rings, that are cursed...Hey, I have this totally awesome idea for a new, original magic item! Prized by deformed halflings who refer to themselves in first-person-plural, this is a ring of invisibility, that actually hides the essence of an evil wizard, and slowly corrupts anyone who wears it, and controls a bunch of other rings, and is invulnerable to all damage unless it is dropped in a volcano, which can only be done by halflings....
Pretty sure that should be an evil demi-god not wizard.
It can be both!
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RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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I know this is your first time entering, so let me be the first to say...
"Welcome to the land of second guessing oneself. Enjoy!" :P
Ha! Given that this is the first thing I have ever designed it's a brave new world of emotional responses for me. It's not the most atrocious thing I could have done. Overall, I'm pretty pleased and excited to get started on voting so we can get to the Top 32 reveal.
I dread the appearance of the ubiquitous chainmail bikini.
I really think rings are the hardest things to make superstar since as far as effect goes they are among the most boring item. Not that someone can't make them interesting, but that's the trick.
I had a list of ideas for magic armors that have certain effects. First I thought of some sort of stink armor that sickens enemies. Then I came up with armor that allows the wearer to become ooze-like and fit through cracks or ignore crits and sneak attacks. A quick look at the SRD showed me that those all existed already.
So now I am working on a totally different thing. Going to submit it today or tomorrow probably. Just want to read it over a few more times.
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I dread the appearance of the ubiquitous chainmail bikini.On the other hand, I expect some magnificent codpieces.
Would those provide an AC bonus like an armored kilt? Otherwise, we're drifting back to wondrous item territory.
...unless...it were designed to be like a rod that you wear, occupying the belt slot. Brilliant!
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Why do I get the creeping feeling that it's best to keep the eye bleach bottle close at hand while voting yet again this year?
Why do I get the creeping feeling that it's best to keep the eye bleach bottle close at hand while voting yet again this year?
I'm convinced that the internet is the secret domain of an Old One, quietly corrupting everything inside it.
Why do I get the creeping feeling that it's best to keep the eye bleach bottle close at hand while voting yet again this year?
Oddly enough, a vial of bleached eyeballs would have been an apropos wondrous item in last year's entries...
As per usual I'll start a drinking game/bingo card thread
I'm really hoping the change in format removes some of the excesses of the previous wondrous items rounds. Guess we'll know in a few days...
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Equalizing StaveWhile it's not a SiaC as some people already pointed out, and it is a pretty cool effect, there is a fatal mistake in it: It doesn't fit the design space of staves. Staves always have a bulleted list of spells, and each of the different uses spends a number of charges. This one is built much like a wondrous item both in presentation and mechanics. It might get past the voters' radars, but Mark and the other judges wouldn't be fooled.
Minor nitpicks:
* Staff is not a weapon type (you probably meant quarterstaff; is it +3/+3 or is only one end enchanted?)
* Targets > target's (Template Fu!)
* No save vs the effect is very harsh despite the price tag; if it spent some charges, it wouldn't be quite so bad.Still, as I said, very cool effect. :)
Yeah, that's not a staff, I'm pretty sure. One thing I've been trying to keep track of, and I'm putting it here on the off chance it's helpful:
- weapons are weapon-shaped items that are primarily used to hurt people with, and secondarily might do some other cool stuff that is normally not casting a spell (with some exceptions, and those exceptions are usually not spell-trigger). They normally do not use charges.
- rods are stick-shaped items that primarily do other cool stuff that is normally not casting a spell (with some exceptions, and those exceptions are usually not spell-trigger), and secondarily might be used as a weapon. They do not use charges.
- Staves are stick-shaped items that primarily used to cast spells with via the spell-trigger method, and secondarily might be used as a weapon and/or do other cool stuff. They do use charges and start with 10.
For a staff to be a staff and not a rod or weapon, it MUST have a spell list, and it MUST use charges (and the spells that use charges are all spell-trigger activated). That some of them might be used as quarterstaves or as a holy item or shed light at the wielder's will, etc. etc. is all bonus, but what makes a staff a staff is the spells it casts and the charges used to cast them. IIRC the CRB even pretty much says that.
The challenge of designing a staff, therefore, is knowing it WILL, in part, be a spell in a can, because a staff by its nature must be that. Ergo its uniqueness is in 1) the theme that ties the spells it casts together, and 2) the additional abilities it may have. The further challenge is not just tacking on a huge list of additional abilities on top of a few spells to make it feel "unique," but rather giving it a reasonable, small set of added features that give it a unified, storied feel.
I can say this easily. Can I do it...? Whole 'nother question. (Not that I'm necessarily entering a staff.)
An aside: I've noticed the rulebooks themselves are really inconsistent with how magic double-weapons are notated; e.g., I see some quarterstaves described as "+1/+1" and others merely "+1" (which I assume if it were +1/+0 it would be noted as such). I would presume the most correct way would be to do the dual notation (+1/+1), unless Paizo decided to change the format.
As to the original question, I reckon we are going to see a lot of "staves" that are actually rods or weapons, "rods" that are staves or weapons, and maybe even a few "weapons" that would be better rods or staves.
no, a +1 quarterstaff is assumed to be enchanted only on one end, and sometimes specifically noted to be. Honestly for most full spellcasters a staff enchanted on both ends is a waste.
Also, as a note, all staves that also function as magical weapons do also require the creator to have craft magic arms and armor (though that may be a prerequisite you can ignore for an added +5 DC in crafting)
Also, as a note, all staves that also function as magical weapons do also require the creator to have craft magic arms and armor (though that may be a prerequisite you can ignore for an added +5 DC in crafting)
The staff of authority actually doesn't require that feat, but it's the only one, I think. Maybe just an oversight?
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As someone who participating in the first round judging/culling last year, I can certainly understand the need to vent/snark/play bingo on some of the more memorable entries that will appear and reappear and reappear and reappear...
But.
Whatever my impressions and reactions to these items might be, I'm going to try very hard not to vent/snark/"BINGO!". I have to assume that each one of these submissions is someone's lovingly handcrafted baby... whatever stream-of-thought riffing I do on the messageboards too often is taken as disheartening or soul-crushing to too many hopeful entrants eager for the tiniest glimpse in their item's progress toward the Final 32. If my frustration or bewilderment levels get too high while judging, I'm going to step away for a bit to unwind and decompress.
One of the things a person needs to do if they want to write professionally, at any level, is to develop a thick skin. Look at the unpleasant things that are said on this very board about some of the stuff Paizo produces. And that's after it goes through editing, rewrites, and often playtesting. It serves a person well to learn a degree of detachment, and to learn to separate the general griping from actual constructive criticism, which can come later when we can actually talk about the items.
As for the snark, a lot of it comes from seeing people making the same mistakes year after year, when there is a volume of advice available on how to avoid those pitfalls.
And you can't honestly say you think a blue tooth and rainbow poop were "someone's lovingly handcrafted" babies...can you?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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One of the things a person needs to do if they want to write professionally, at any level, is to develop a thick skin. Look at the unpleasant things that are said on this very board about some of the stuff Paizo produces. And that's after it goes through editing, rewrites, and often playtesting. It serves a person well to learn a degree of detachment, and to learn to separate the general griping from actual constructive criticism, which can come later when we can actually talk about the items.
As for the snark, a lot of it comes from seeing people making the same mistakes year after year, when there is a volume of advice available on how to avoid those pitfalls.
And you can't honestly say you think a blue tooth and rainbow poop were "someone's lovingly handcrafted" babies...can you?
I very much agree that it's important to develop a thick skin.
But I also think that it's important to be polite and professional if you want to be a freelancer. Who knows, the filigree guy or the torc girl might be a future co-worker or a potential customer.. or someone who would have voted for your RPGSS entry if you hadn't made that snarky remark. Just food for thought.
I do admit it was entertaining to read the thread, a guilty pleasure.
Why do I get the creeping feeling that it's best to keep the eye bleach bottle close at hand while voting yet again this year?
Stabbing your own eyes out with big waxy orange crayons works well too :P
Equalizing StaveWhile it's not a SiaC as some people already pointed out, and it is a pretty cool effect, there is a fatal mistake in it: It doesn't fit the design space of staves. Staves always have a bulleted list of spells, and each of the different uses spends a number of charges. This one is built much like a wondrous item both in presentation and mechanics. It might get past the voters' radars, but Mark and the other judges wouldn't be fooled.
Minor nitpicks:
* Staff is not a weapon type (you probably meant quarterstaff; is it +3/+3 or is only one end enchanted?)
* Targets > target's (Template Fu!)
* No save vs the effect is very harsh despite the price tag; if it spent some charges, it wouldn't be quite so bad.Still, as I said, very cool effect. :)
Yeah, that's not a staff, I'm pretty sure. One thing I've been trying to keep track of, and I'm putting it here on the off chance it's helpful:
- weapons are weapon-shaped items that are primarily used to hurt people with, and secondarily might do some other cool stuff that is normally not casting a spell (with some exceptions, and those exceptions are usually not spell-trigger). They normally do not use charges.
- rods are stick-shaped items that primarily do other cool stuff that is normally not casting a spell (with some exceptions, and those exceptions are usually not spell-trigger), and secondarily might be used as a weapon. They do not use charges.
- Staves are stick-shaped items that primarily used to cast spells with via the spell-trigger method, and secondarily might be used as a weapon and/or do other cool stuff. They do use charges and start with 10.
For a staff to be a staff and not a rod or weapon, it MUST have a spell list, and it MUST use charges (and the spells that use charges are all spell-trigger activated). That some of them might be used as quarterstaves or as a holy item or shed light at the wielder's will, etc. etc. is all bonus, but...
Yes, had I developed the idea beyond first draft, I was going to add charges, and it should have been quarterstaff with the +3/+3 - that was a typo on my part.
I probably wouldn't have added a spell effect selection list because I was consciously and deliberately attempting to try something different with a quarterstaff - that's the gamble when you try something different, it's kind of like Marmite (Vegemite), you either love it or hate it. It is quite a big gamble - I think this one would certainly have gotten noticed a lot by what I was attempting to do.
I fully trust you were still tweaking the output, Anthony Adam, you're a good designer. I was commenting less to critique you and more to piggy back onto the "what makes a staff a staff" conversation that you essentially started, in case it was helpful. (It most likely probably was not.)
That's fine, my response was more to show new designers that my initial draft was flawed and that I agreed with you ;)
Very helpful advice and examples, all around.
I don't think I saw anyone else quite point this out as a possible "new cliche" but I'll be curious to see how often the same basic theme will be repeated between items.
Almost all the available options for design this year require more than one "thing" as opposed to wondrous items, which can be a single-effect per item, as well as a group of them around a theme.
Any specific magic weapon will need to be a magic weapon (likely a +1 xxx weapon) and offer some other effect, which should go along with the xxx ability.
Any specific magic armor/shield will need be a magic armor/shield (likely a +1 xxx armor/shield) and offer some other effect, which should go along with the xxx ability.
And then staves are typically a string of spells (that should have a theme that ties them together), likely with some other effect that ties into those spells.
Rods and rings could still be "single-effect" items, but rods also commonly act as weapons/maces, so they have the same problem as specific magic weapons in that case (and as everyone is pointing out, what makes a rod a rod vs. a mace with effects, like many rods kind of are, is tricky).
Maybe I'm missing a huge design space???
My point is -- I wonder how often we'll see the same themes repeated. How many times will we see a sword of fire & ice + staff of fire & ice + shield of fire & ice or other relatively specific seeming theme/item, repeated over and over again?
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Another predicted cliche: Weapons/armors that adapt to always give you the bonuses you want. I expect a few +1 whatever-you-happen-to-be-fighting-at-the-moment bane swords.
This is just me, but something like that, left unfettered, could very well get down-voted by me. An ability like that could trivialize a lot of the game unless it came with a considerable limitation, like 1 per day.
Like the instant enemy spell already does?
Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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The Spell In A Can "rule" is the bane of my existence. Not because I want to make an item that casts a spell, but because all the effects I want to create are spells.
It's super hard to avoid having an effect that isn't replicated by an existing spell in some way shape or form. I mean, there are 1803 magic spells on pfsrd.com alone.
Once could just leave that spell off the pre-reqs, but that feels sloppy (especially if that spell makes the most sense of the spell enchanting the item). But that seems like a cheap way of making the item not feel like a SiaC.
Panache. A cliche done with panache feels new and entertaining.