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Clerics are very powerful due to being full casters... But they could really use more interesting class features (including a capstone). They are the most boring class to build, IMO.
Eh, channel has its purpose, particularly at low levels. It could do with running off of WIS instead, so decrease MAD, but eh. And I am not an expert on cleric builds, but there seems to be feats to support its use with attacks. Channeling smite seems a bit iffy, but channeling force seems fairly versatile for decent enough damage.
And capstones hardly matter in most games. By the time they roll around, things are usually coming to a close.
A capstone ability would be cool, but most people will never get it.
Channeling is... not great. If you use Versatile and/or Variant Channeling, I think it is acceptable, though. Lots of cool effects in the Variant Channeling list depending on your god. Sadly, Clerics don't get a ton of feats, so you limit yourself a lot there. The Cleric spell list is just great though.
If you want a Cleric with more class abilities, I think a lot of people have migrated to Oracle and Shaman for just such a reason.
I think it would be okay if channeling keyed off wisdom, so they'd be less MAD. It's a fine ability, especially if you take Quick Channel and can tag one off in addition to spellcasting, but I really think it's not cool that no other caster, save the arcanist, needs two mental stats.
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Clerics are already very powerful. If anything their class abilities are overpowered. They certainly don't need to become even more powerful. If by 'better' you mean 'more interesting', then maybe.
Channel is pretty weak, in general. Unless a cleric spends resources on channeling, that particular class feature is usually relegated to out of combat healing. Of course, when it's a negative variant channel like, say, Rulership, and mixed with some feats it becomes rather like a short-range quickened enlarged selective dazing fireball, which is theoretically roughly equal to about a 12th level spell & usable about 10 times per day. This power comes online at 1st level, although it doesn't reach full power until 5th level. Used that way, channelling is overpowered. So it depends how you do things.
This highlights the extreme flexibility of the cleric class. One can't even pick attributes until one knows what type of cleric to create. The default 'support build' is not the only way to play a cleric. The 'healbot' role is probably the least useful role a cleric can fill.
Wisdom-based Channeling would help with point buy, yeah.
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Domain choices being at level one is the kicker. I've been working on giving clerics one domain at level one and a then a "sphere" that they choose with abilities they choose from, like revelations but weaker. They have resonant abilities if they match their domain and sphere so you have a cleric totally focused on one aspect of their deity's portfolio to the detriment of other aspects.
My party also thinks that clerics are powerful, but boring and, worse, are too similar while the deities are very different. We have decided to give the cleric the Deific Obedience of his deity at level 3. Limit a bit the knowledge of cleric spells can be appropriate to compensate, but we are not decided yet on this one.
Cleric is one of the best classes in the game.
That being said, I agree with minoritarian that I wish domains had more interesting 1st level abilities. Havign them work like mysteries would be an awesome idea. A cleric might have a very different pool of abilities depending on their deity.
They already released an improved Cleric with actual class features. It's called a Shaman. Oh sure it's spell list is weird as hell, but when you can mug spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list and use the Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc favored class bonus to mug Cleric spells (caution runs afoul spells known FAQ) can fix this problem easily.
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+1 on Clerics being very powerful (even overpowered) but generally boring.
One of the problems is that Domains don't really cut it from a flavor perspective for replacing the Spheres that Priests got in 2nd Edition D&D; for all the flaws in implementation, Spheres and Specialty Priests were at least really cool.
(Copied and pasted and somewhat amended from a thread that died.)
In retrospect, Clerics and Druids should have been built on an Inquisitor-style game mechanical chassis (getting slower spellcasting in exchange for a BUNCH of other cool stuff, of which Channeling could be an option, only make the spellcasting 7/9 instead of 6/9), with a d6 1/2 BAB Priest class (something like this but not necessarily tied to the Knowledge Domain) for those who really want the full 9/9 Divine casting, and Inquisitors themselves should be a Prestige Class designed to progress from any these classes (although getting a Prestige Class to work right with both a 6/9 or 7/9 Base Class and a 9/9 Base Class would be tricky).
My reasoning is that a faith would want an Inquisitor to be somebody who had shown some proof of being trustworthy of such as profession, rather than just any random Cleric/Druid-initiate off the street/cowpath. I would also argue a similar thing for Paladins and similar Holy Warriors (D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana actually offered a Prestige Paladin, as well as a Prestige Ranger and Prestige Bard, although I think Prestige Paladin was much more important than the other 2; note that these were all 15 Level Prestige Classes).
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My biggest problem with clerics is a pretty minor one ... the vast majority of domains are underpowered. If you're playing a cleric for society and not focusing on a niche build (negative channeling or a specific domain spell list) then you're selling yourself short in terms of combat mechanics if you pick anything other than luck or travel domains.
Please note that my highest Society character is a 17th level cleric of Calistria who only has one of the above mentioned domains, so I sometimes pick flavor over cheese.
In 1st edition, clerics got no spells at 1st level; their progression started at 2nd. That 1-level lag would be enough of an entry cost to justify two domain powers and channeling at 1st level, and some additional cool domain powers or domain-related bonus feats along the way. You could also give them back heavy armor proficiency, to help with survivability at 1st level.
^Depends upon which 1st Edition you are talking about:
Basic/Expert: True, and then later in the spell progression, Clerics got access to 2 levels of spells at once (I think it was 3rd and 4th, but can't remember for sure).
AD&D: False, and Clerics got access to new levels spells at all odd levels until they got 6th level spells at 11th level, and then a HUGE gap until they got 7th level spells at 17th level (if I remember the numbers right). They also eventually got more than 4 spells per day of each level as they got to really high levels (same for Wizards and Illusionists, by the way).
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I like playing a cleric. Many of the domain powers are pretty lackluster (4 versions of 1d6 + 1 damage ranged attacks from elementals is just boring), but there are some really good ones in there too.
The real problem with Clerics isn't anything to do with the class, it's with what makes the game fun, which is a player by player issue. If you're the kind of player who derives no satisfaction from shutting down a succubus encounter with a timely Protection from Evil, or letting your barbarian pounce right through a wall of fire with a Protection from Energy spell, then the cleric is probably not for you. I don't personally find that boring at all which is why I like playing Clerics, but I understand why the support role is not as enticing to some players.
I think adding more meat to domains would be the best way to improve the cleric. It would add more features and make a cleric's choice of deity/domains more significant.
I'll add my name to those who thing the cleric is already powerful, and one of the more boring classes to play. Channeling is terrible without feats, and the cleric doesn't get bonus feats which makes it difficult to be usable.
My biggest problem is that I find it difficult to think of a role or concept that an oracle can not fulfill better than the cleric. The only real drawback with the oracle is that you have to invest some party WBL into scrolls of important but rarely used spells such as remove blindness or similar. But you have more then enough spells known for the common buff/debuff spells that you're going to want to cast. And then you have awesome myserties that can add all martial weapon proficiency and give you heavy armor. Or you can pick up other mysteries to do other crazy and interesting stuff. It's just hard for the cleric to compete on the interesting level, even if they're on par for power.
I think if we want to see more/better class features for the cleric it then it will need to come out of their baseline power.
Clerics are... well competent in everything. Their full power casters. They have armor and shields and full casting in both. They have medium bab and d8 hit dice as well as 2 good saves.
That's a really good starting point for any class, and it makes it really hard to give them anything else.
If there were to lose the two saves or the armored casting or step down from the medium bab/hit dice there would be a lot more room to spice up their class features.
Of course we could also step back the spell casting but I think that would be a very hard thing to do and require rebuilding the class from the ground up.
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I think base cleric is pretty boring but between archetypes and using Rite Publishing's domain channeling feats I stopped caring about that.
BtW same goes for Paladins if you allow them to domain channel their deity's domains.
Channeling is terrible without feats, and the cleric doesn't get bonus feats which makes it difficult to be usable.But man oh man are they awesome with the feats! :D
Most of the best effects only work with negative channeling or against undead (or outsiders/elementals with the right feats). Good clerics get kind of screwed there. There's probably a decent variant heal channel somewhere, but I haven't found it.
In 1st edition, clerics got no spells at 1st level; their progression started at 2nd. That 1-level lag would be enough of an entry cost to justify two domain powers and channeling at 1st level, and some additional cool domain powers or domain-related bonus feats along the way. You could also give them back heavy armor proficiency, to help with survivability at 1st level.
Heavy armor proficiency wouldn't really help at 1st level... or even 2nd or 3rd, since full plates are expensive as hell.
Besides, Clerics need more interesting abilities, not a simple power-up. They're already one of the most powerful classes in the game.
I am not saying the cleric is weak i am saying the is cleric boring
channel is BORING!!!!! domains are BORING!!!!!
And no one has disagreed. People have instead said, "Yes but they are powerful, and it's hard to come up with good choices when the base of the cleric is so strong to start with. If you want something not boring then they'll probably have to lose some of their base power."
So...
what's the problem?
People agree with you and pointed out a source (only a source) of the problem and something that will have to be addressed to fix it.
I am not saying the cleric is weak i am saying the is cleric boring
channel is BORING!!!!! domains are BORING!!!!!
So make some constructive suggestions then.
Pretty much everyone agrees that, if you want to add interesting abilties to the cleric, the class as it is needs a big power-down first.
Most of the cleric's power lies in his 9-level spellcasting. Hit that and you hit his power proportionately. If the cleric got no spellcasting advancement at, say, 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels (cut those rows and shift the rest down to match), he'd be in essence a 7/9 caster -- back to 7 spell levels like in 1e. Keep the domain powers at 1st and 4th or 8th; fill in others (and/or bonus feats) at the other non-spellcasting levels, with domain-related capstones at 20th. Rebalance the domains against each other.
Yeah, it would be a LOT of work to write all that stuff and shuffle some of the spell levels, but if you want to redesign a class from the ground up, it takes some work.
To keep the cleric still viable compared to the Oracle, cut the latter's BAB to 1/2 and his HD to d6s. Do the same for the druid. Then all 9-level casters are at 1/2 BAB, and all 3/4 casters are at 3/4 BAB. The monk and rogue, as non-casters, could go to full BAB...
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The number 1 class feature of a cleric is access to every spell on the cleric list. Doesn't get a whole lot better than that.
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The number 1 class feature of a cleric is access to every spell on the cleric list. Doesn't get a whole lot better than that.*
*With restrictions based on you and your deity's alignment.
There's probably a decent variant heal channel somewhere, but I haven't found it.Fateful Channel.
Well, that's just sick, but it isn't a variant channel--fortunately! You can have your healing and eat it too for the low, low price of a feat! Too bad only Pharasmites get it.
Do you guys think Cleric need better class abilities?
I think channel is just terrible and i think it needs a capstone
Clerics have spells, the best class abilities in the game.
So, no.
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Pretty much everyone agrees that, if you want to add interesting abilties to the cleric, the class as it is needs a big power-down first.
Most of the cleric's power lies in his 9-level spellcasting. Hit that and you hit his power proportionately. {. . .}
To keep the cleric still viable compared to the Oracle, cut the latter's BAB to 1/2 and his HD to d6s. Do the same for the druid. Then all 9-level casters are at 1/2 BAB, and all 3/4 casters are at 3/4 BAB. The monk and rogue, as non-casters, could go to full BAB...
I want to expand on that + what I wrote before (and while I'm at it, restore the link to a 1/2 BAB Priest Class). Rebuild the Cleric and Druid on an Inquisitor-style game mechanical chassis with some Warpriest elements, thus getting slower spellcasting in exchange for a BUNCH of other cool stuff, of which Channeling could be an option (not a default ability -- have this be a Cleric Archetype option), except Make the spellcasting 7/9 instead of 6/9. For those who really want the full 9/9 Divine casting, make separate d6 1/2 BAB Priest (prepared) and Oracle (spontaneous) classes (something like Adamant Entertainment's Priest, but not necessarily tied to the Knowledge Domain) for those who really want the full 9/9 Divine casting. For both classes, make Domains be more than just 3 powers + a single chain of bonus spells (and have the Domains provide early access to a few key spells without which the 6/9 or 7/9 casting progression would be too impaired in the way that the Warpriest is now), but the point of expanding the Domains is not so much to make them more powerful as to make them cool the way 2nd Edition Specialty Priests were cool (even though mechanically flawed). For those who want a combat Oracle, make a separate 6/9 or 7/9 casting 3/4 BAB d8 Prophet class that otherwise works like the Oracle but has some Warpriest (and maybe Inquisitor chassis) stuff added in.
Inquisitors themselves should be a Prestige Class (or really, more than one, with specifics depending upon religion) designed to progress from any these classes (although getting a Prestige Class to work right with both a 6/9 or 7/9 Base Class and a 9/9 Base Class would be tricky under the current Prestige Class mechanics). While we're at it, rebuild Warpriest itself as a d10 full BAB 4/9 Holy Warrior class, of which Paladin and Antipaladin would be Archetypes (tied to specific groups of religions rather than to specific alignments). Add Prestige Classes (again tied to specific religions rather than specific alignments, but with the tie-in to individual religions rather than groups of related religions) to add more of the Paladin/Antipaladin/etc flavor. For example, for Iomedae, use a greatly extended version of Inheritor's Crusader; for Asmodeus, use a variant of Hellknight (although under a different name since Hellknights themselves are often not Diabolists and can even be anti-Diabolist). Making Monk and Rogue into d10 full BAB classes is worthy of consideration, but then also bump the Fighter to d12 (and add more Skill Points).
As I posted earlier, a faith would want an Inquisitor (who operates above the normal rules of a faith to uncover enemies within, among other things) or a paragon-class Holy Warrior to be somebody who had shown some proof of being trustworthy of such as profession, rather than just any random Cleric/Oracle/Druid-initiate off the street/cowpath. THAT is the kind of thing that Prestige Classes should be for -- a few Prestige Classes (for example, Inheritor's Crusader, Hellknight, Hellknight Signifer, and a handful of others) meet this standard, but most just serve as multiclassing options that really should have been provided instead by some combination of Archetypes and Feats (and in most cases would work better that way).
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Clerics are awesome and all seem totally different from one another. Why do people think they are boring? Between subdomains and variant channeling and new spells every time a book gets published they get a lot of options. There are a lot of other classes if you get bored with Cleric on the other hand.
Hm...
Cloistered -- Alright this is terribad. Diminished spell casting ruins it from the get go. Little armor (not tank) and cut casting? Not the best idea in the world...
Crusader -- Reduced casting but a bunch of bonus feats so that's not horrible... I'll grant that Legion's Blessing while a cool idea costs too much to use really.
Divine Strategist -- One domain... well that's not the worse thing to happen, and you get never be surpised from the get go. But it replaces channel energy so a wash on 'not boring' aspect. Caster support is neat and fresh, but the unwarranted "not for you" aspect for arcane caster is dumb. If you can find a way to speed up aid other (and there are several) might be worth for that. Tactical expertise would be awesome if you had more ways to make good use of your intelligence... as it stands you don't so not awesome.
Ecclesitheurge -- I'll wait on this one until we know it's not getting errata'ed but the idea is alright.
Merciful Healer -- Obligatory heal bot. Combat Medic is handy and free, Merciful healing is nifty, and true healer gives a good option for when you don't need a mercy. Giving up a domain and being forced into the other isn't as hurting when it's what so inline with what the archetype is about. I'm going to say this one is good, in that it is what an archetype should be -- focused, concise, flavorful and stronger at what it's about at the expense of generalization.
Separatist -- Costs the favored weapon only and you get free choice on a domain that doesn't match your deity's normal ones. Gives options with little cost and offers up flavor in doing so. I would put it with the merciful healer.
[bTheologian[/b] -- focused on one domain and free metamagic is nice. The major misstep on this one is the inability to prepare non-cleric domain spells in regular cleric slots to really give you the ability to use it well.
Undead Lord -- One domain, increased undead healing and a free companion with free bonus feats. Doesn't force you into channeling negative either. Thematic, strong but does have something you give up (a domain). Going to have to call this one good too.
So yeah there are some missteps in the cleric archetypes but they aren't all horrible. I feel like there is a lot of good and learning opportunities here for what to do to help make the cleric less 'boring' as well as where to look out for traps.
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a full casting class is about their spells. To make them interesting you use their spell options. Domains give some fun options as well, even an animal companion.
Cleric can also shy away from casting and be inflatable fighters that deal high damage and have casting support. They just tend to need a few rounds of buffing.
Clerics can also focus on channeling, depending on positive/negative and deity, they can get crazy options. Spells being secondary, either tactical, defensive, or summons.
If this is just about play style, i cant make any sense of bards, they seem so horrible and stale. I cannot find anything exciting about them, and any concept can be better done in a different class. Obviously that's not how most people see that class.
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Clerics are fine.
How about an option that has a d6 hit die and gets skill points? Or straight-up can't wear heavier armors in trade for something? I'd love to see a light-armor-only cleric with bonuses to charisma skills and some other special like the ability to cast domain spells as regular spells or do stuff the Shaman does.
Something like this guy?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/pri est
Full Casting AND full/interesting feat/class ability trees? I dunno if that's going to go well.
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No love for the Growth subdomain?
As a swift action you can enlarge yourself for 1 round, as if you were the target of the enlarge person spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Yeah it's not an I win button but it's something fun to use and you get it at level one.