To Chaosguy, If you are going lion shaman, then you are going to have to be happy with 6d8 at most as there aren't any huge cats. Only Dinos have huge pouncers.
To Derek, Wildshapes lasts for hours per level, Natural spell allows you to cast during wildshape. With 2 Wildshapes at 8th level, for example, you can be in wildshape for 16 hours per day, which is basically all the time.
Thanks Proto.
If I really need to pounce on a colossal target (or need more than 6d8 on 4 attacks a round), then at level 11 even my lion shaman could shift into a huge dino shape. Again thinking of my poor DMs head - I think he will find a huge Dino Druid somewhat more acceptable at that point :)
I'm slowly springing these fun Druid facts on him as the campaign progresses.
Forgot to add to my build post, I've been taking the half-orcs +1/3 nat armor bonus when wild shaping. At level 7 now My ac is looking like
+4 nat armor from beast shape large
+2 nat armor bonus from Orc
+6 from dragon hide breast plate Barding
+2 luck bonus from Jingasa
+1 armor enhancement bonus
+1 dex
-1 size
+10 base
= 25 ac
And can add another +3 with bark skin if needed.
Sorry for the late response, I got busy and must have missed checking back up on the thread.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Excuse me, Lune, but did you just call me a troll?
I guess I inadvertently did. I had thought you were on the other side of this debate? Er... the side saying that they stack. Was I wrong?
You said...
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Say in case of a half-orc with a bite attack that does 1d4, but with Feral Combat Training does 1d6, when she has Enlarge Person cast upon her, I say the damage goes up from 1d6 to 1d8.
I agree with that. Always have. I disagree with Kastar and I believe he is in the severe minority (hence the bit about catering to a small minority who disagree). Of course, he is allowed to have his opinion but claiming his opinion is what the RAW says, that is a leap that I disagree with.
15th multi attack // make one of your primary natural attacks iterative
I don't believe that this is correct Chaosguy. The multiattack that animal companions get does this, but only if they have only one natural attack. It's not part of the feat, just a special thing for companions. Your druid would only get the reduced penalty to secondary natural attacks.
Oh and ZanThrax, you are correct, that is how multiattack would work for wildshape. Besides, if Chaosguy wanted to take multiattack he would have to have three natural attacks in non-wildshape form anyways so he'd have to use something else for that feat slot (unless house-ruled otherwise or the like).
Sorry for the late response, I got busy and must have missed checking back up on the thread.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Excuse me, Lune, but did you just call me a troll?
I guess I inadvertently did. I had thought you were on the other side of this debate? Er... the side saying that they stack. Was I wrong?
You said...
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Say in case of a half-orc with a bite attack that does 1d4, but with Feral Combat Training does 1d6, when she has Enlarge Person cast upon her, I say the damage goes up from 1d6 to 1d8.
I agree with that. Always have. I disagree with Kastar and I believe he is in the severe minority (hence the bit about catering to a small minority who disagree). Of course, he is allowed to have his opinion but claiming his opinion is what the RAW says, that is a leap that I disagree with.
Lune,
Avoron finally contributed to the thread he linked to, Improved Natural Attack and Feral Combat Training, necroing the thread, and the debate as to whether those 2 feats stack has moved to there. I complied with requests from sundry people--never the OP--as soon as the venue for that debate topic reopened.
Like you (evidently), Lune, I disagree strongly with people's bellicose remarks that this debate topic derailed the thread, and I take issue with respsonsibility for the number of posts on the topic being thrust upon me: I wasn't arguing alone.
Avoron counted 46 out of now just over 200 posts made on the topic. But the thread has never had a shortage of contributors on a variety of subjects. More because of our debate, possibly: we kept this thread on the front page. Meanwhile, perhaps the reason why such a large number of posts were made on this topic on this thread is that it is the single most important topic on the thread. prototype00 himself said in his guide that he no martial wildshape build he has ever seen did not have Feral Combat Training, and just how that feat works is precisely what we were discussing.
It was vital, but I already made my point to my satisfaction on this thread, and I have conceded to move arguing it further elsewhere even though I disagree with the underlying rationale.
We are in disagreement on this topic, but that is no reason to call me names.
At zanthrax, good catch. I read that feat under the animal companion section and misapplied here. Don't need it for my preferred combat forms. I would just move quicken spell up 2 levels. Then probably pick up combat style master to improve action economy some.
We are in disagreement on this topic, but that is no reason to call me names.
Did you even read my last post? The one where I specifically pointed out that we do NOT disagree on this topic? Stop arguing with people who agree with you! Dang... I didn't call you a name. I was referring to the people on the other side of this topic who are not supporting their opinions with RAW.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I complied with requests from sundry people--never the OP--as soon as the venue for that debate topic reopened. Like you (evidently), Lune, I disagree strongly with people's bellicose remarks that this debate topic derailed the thread...
Once again, you are misrepresenting my opinion. While I agree that because prototype00's guide hinges so heavily upon this ruling that we truly do need to get a ruling on it, I have repeatedly pointed out the following:
Me, earlier... wrote:
Well, I FAQ'd it but it would be better if there was a thread dedicated to it in the rules forum.
You have repeatedly misrepresented my opinion, Scott. I am kindly asking you to stop. I have repeatedly stated that I agree with prototype00's original interpretation of how INA and FCT should stack by RAW and I also believe that while this is a topic important to this guide that it would be most valuable as a post in the rules thread where FAQing a post tends to get more attention from Devs.
While I agree that because prototype00's guide hinges so heavily upon this ruling that we truly do need to get a ruling on it.
The optimal build does 12d8 damage (on one natural attack) WITHOUT Improved Natural Attack. I think that "hinges heavily" is a bit much. In other words, could we please get off this topic? It wasn't getting this thread anywhere.
While I agree that because prototype00's guide hinges so heavily upon this ruling that we truly do need to get a ruling on it.
The optimal build does 12d8 damage (on one natural attack) WITHOUT Improved Natural Attack. I think that "hinges heavily" is a bit much. In other words, could we please get off this topic? It wasn't getting this thread anywhere.
Strictly speaking, it is Feral Combat Training, not Improved Natural Weapon that prototype00 said none of his builds could do without, and it is principally Feral Combat Training that Lune, Kastar, Avoron, ZanThrax, and I were debating, though we were debating about both to some extent.
I've already moved my debate on this topic to another thread. It has been linked to on another post on this thread.
And I have to give it to you: 12d8/attack is pretty good. I'll have another look for it on this thread.
Are you sure that sizing up the weapons increases the damage geometrically like that? Greatswords wielded by Huge Sized Giants do 4d6. Clubs wielded by Elysian Titans (Colossal) do 6d8. The Monk Chart describing how different sized monks do different damage actually match other weapons coming in different sizes. It looks to me like upsizing gives your attacks + an extra die of damage as opposed to doubling damage.
But I was having trouble finding specific rules describing upsizing weapons. If you can give us your source for the rules on how weapons upsize from medium to large to huge to gargantuan to colossal?
Because the Triceratops build I proposed based on your suggestion of the Saurian build also has a Base damage of 2d10 and would benefit from Strong Jaw in the same way and be in business by level 6.
Are you sure that sizing up the weapons increases the damage geometrically like that? Greatswords wielded by Huge Sized Giants do 4d6. Clubs wielded by Elysian Titans (Colossal) do 6d8. The Monk Chart describing how different sized monks do different damage actually match other weapons coming in different sizes. It looks to me like upsizing gives your attacks + an extra die of damage as opposed to doubling damage.
But I was having trouble finding specific rules describing upsizing weapons. If you can give us your source for the rules on how weapons upsize from medium to large to huge to gargantuan to colossal?
Because the Triceratops build I proposed based on your suggestion of the Saurian build also has a Base damage of 2d10 and would benefit from Strong Jaw in the same way and be in business by level 6.
Well, the Improved Natural Attack damage scale is what this is using. Not sure if there's a better suited scale for the damage though.
Because if that was what you meant, I have good news. If not, I am very, very sorry.
As for this specific circumstance:
Medium monk = 2d10 (from monk tables)
Large monk = 4d8 (from monk tables and Tiny/Large weapon tables)
Huge monk = 6d8 (from INA progression)
Huge monk with strong jaw = 12d8 (from INA progression and pretty much everywhere else)
Triceratops deals 2d10 damage with it's huge size already factored in. A monk deals 2d10 damage at medium, and this damage increases if the monk increases in size.
If you wanted to deal insane damage with just base natural attack damage, your best bet is to be a Carnivorous Crystal Ooze, but failing that, Arsinoitherium and Behemoth Hippopotamus are very nice.
Why yes, Avoron, I guess I did mean that. Thank you very much.
So a Triceratops with it's huge size already factored in may have Strong Jaw cast upon it, raising its effective damage to 2d10 => 4d8=> 6d8, inflicting damage as it were a Colossal Triceratops. That's not half-bad, since, as I outlined, this effect can be achieved by level 6. I'm not exactly sure how the character should then continue pumping up his or her DPR over the next 14 levels or so, but I'm sure an unapologeticly agressive minmaxer can think of something.
On that subject, how does a spell like Strong Jaw interact with a Special Attack like Powerful Charge? A Special Attack might not count as a Natural Attack at all. It might count as part of the Gore, which might mean that Strong Jaw would give some kind of bonus to both the Gore and the 'Charge. Then again, Strong Jaw might count as a separate natural attack, meaning one could cast 2 String Jaws on it: the second on the Powerful Charge. I just don't know.
Even if Powerful Charge couldn't directly benefit from INA or Strong Jaw at all, we're talking about a base damage of 6d8+4d10 = 27 +22 = 49. Your monks' base damage is 12d8 = 9 X 6 = 54, better, but the ceratopsian's damage/attack is quite respectable for level 6.
So, how does a size medium monk achieve a base damage of 2d10?
... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.
Also the monk gets to full attack at the end of a charge, thanks to stuff like pummeling charge or pounce (in Allosaurus form).
Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.
So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge) but takes longer to get there.
prototype00
Ah, you could do a single 12d8 gore on a charge as a Tricerotops with Strong Jaw on, thats not bad.
So I have been checking in on this thread for a week or so, and it is very interesting. The 2 classes seem like the best to mesh. In fact, I am considering such as my next society character.
But where to start? Monk is the most daunting to me. It seems to be easy to mess this class up, but so many ways to make it amazing.
The amount of options for this combo are staggering. It seems the boiled down main point is to get into the feral combat feat, and use monk unarmed damage in place of wild shape critter natural attack dice. This seems cool, but good golly you need a ton of levels in each class to realize such.
My question, is what is a good basic plan for a span of 5, 10, or 15 levels?
Lets start with what you want your character to do, pouncing and full attacks or crushing things to death? Once you know this, you can answer how to build them. (Archetype and feat choice is heavily dependent on this).
... 20th level monk damage is 2d10. Its what I based all my calculations on.
I guess that's okay at this stage in planning, but when people are thinking of the results they get following your guide navigating through levels, basing your results on level 20 Monk/level something Druid is not realistic. PFS games don't go past level 12. Most campaigns never reach level 20, and many fewer go higher, to my experience. Personally, I have never had a level 20 character.
Also if I am not mistaken, the value for powerful charge (4d10 in the case of the Tricerotops) is the amount of damage that you deal on a charge, and is not added to the base 2d10 damage.
I'm pretty sure it's added.
Powerful Charge wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, its attack deals extra damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s description.
Format: powerful charge (gore, 4d8+24); Location: Special Attacks
Perhaps I'm mistaken. But the description says it does extra damage on top of what your charge normally does, and that number in the description is the amount extra.
So yes, I think my monk does a lot better (potentially 5x12d8 attacks versus a single 4d10 attack on a charge)
Perhaps it does have more potential, but it is not fair to say that the build I proposed only gets a single attack. While I did not provide for mechanisms for multiple attacks with the Gore, that does not by any means mean that there not any means: Greater Overrun, Merciless Rush, Wheeling Charge, Minotaur Charge, Awesome Blow (doesn't exactly give extra attacks, but pretty cool), Quick, Greater bull rush + Paired Opportunist, Snake Fang + FCT, Great Cleave, Great Cleaving Finish, and Spiked Destroyer. There are lots of combinations that give lots of attacks that don't cost many feats to achieve.
prototype00 wrote:
but takes longer to get there.
A LOT longer. You're comparing your 20+ level character with my 6th level character!
Remember with monks robes and monastic legacy you can be a lower level and still get to max monk damage
Fair to say, I'm just demonstrating that Triceratops builds can be awesome, and can stand up well compared with other builds.
Also, I was asking for clarification on how he achieved his damage/attack and wanted to make sure it's According to Hoyle: I'm convinced it is.
Although I have some concern that prototype00 is assuming a level 20 Monk, which might make his advice less practical. Assuming a level 15 Monk + a Monk's Robe is a little better.
Monastic Legacy is a great idea for a lot of builds, but it's an offset: it doesn't exactly fix the problem.
10 levels of monk plus 10 levels of anything plus monastic legacy plus robes equals level 20 monk damage. That's all I was saying - I assume that's how he's getting to monk level 20 damage
Ok, to revisit my question, let's get a little sample of something for society play.
A crusher. 5th level version, and 10th level version. Since it is society play, it has to pretty much peak at 9th or 10th level.
I have 2 build concepts that involve Grappling, and for a PFS Character, I can usually incorporate both. Sometimes I use Grappling to do extra Damage. Sometimes I proscecute the Grapple to Tie my opponent Up.
For Tying Up, you need Greater Grapple, then take a 2 level dip into Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. You get Expert Captor. Normally, you need to Pin your Opponent before you can Tie him Up, and you take a -10 when you do. With Expert Captor, you can Tie Up if your opponent is merely Grappled, and you don't take a -10. With Greater Grapple, you may Make 2 Grapple Checks/round. So if you begin your round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, then Tie Up as a Move Action. There are many ways to pump up your Grapple Mod quite high. Armbands of the Brawler +1, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver +2, the Brawling enchantment +2. A Crab Familiar +2, the Grab Ability+4, Improved and Greater grapple +2 each. I had a PFS Grappling character whose Grapple Mod was +23 at level 9.
Grapple Checks can be modified by True Strike, but True Strike can only be cast on yourself, and it takes a Standard Action. My favorite way I have found to incorporate True Strike into this tactic is to take 1-4 levels in Alchemist and the Potion Glutton Feat. You can down any potable as a Swift Action, which would include Alchemal Extracts.
Round1: use a Wand of True Strike on yourself and close with your opponent.
Round2: Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action. Pop an Alchemal Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action. Tie up your opponent as a Move Action.
If I'd known about that when I was playing Olga Blakovitch, she'd have been able to pump up her Grapple Mod to +43 for 2 grapple checks, giving her a 50-50 chance of being able to Grapple and Tie Up an Ancient Green Dragon in 1 round: not bad for level 9.
You have to worship Uragothoa to take Potion Glutton, so that might be problematic for a Druid. But Druids don't have the same strictures on deities to worship as Clerics do, and worshipping a death goddess might be a little unusual for a Druid, but Death is part of life isn't it? Much more Strange would be worshipping Uragothoa as a Cavalier member of the Order of the Penitent, who vow to never kill. Personally, I see it as a roleplaying challenge.
For inflicting damage, I like to get Grab and Constrict and wear armor spikes. With Grab, every attack gives you a free grapple check. With Armor Spikes, every Grapple Check does AS weapon damage. With Constrict, every Grapple Check also comes with Grapple Damage. You can release the Grapple as a Free Action, and so you will be effectively tripling the number of attacks you make with your Full Attack Action.
You could specialize in Wild Shaping into a Giant Octopus, or rather a Monktopus, giving you Grab and Constrict immediately, but in PFS you can't take Multiattack, so those flailing tentacles all get a -5 to attack, and Feral Combat Training won't prevent that. Feral Combat Training will significantly boost the damage of your Tentacles, especially when further augmented with Strong Jaw or Improved Natural Attack. prototype00 shall maintain in his Guide that INA and FCT don't stack, but even he maintains (unless there was a VERY recent official rules post) that there is no basis in the rules for suggesting they don't, and prototype00 only reversed his position because of an opinion expressed by a Paizo employee. But that employees opinion was not an official interpretation of the rules. If you get hosed by a PFS DM's personal table variation, just cast Strong Jaw on yourself instead.
If you aren't going Monktopus, then consider taking the Final Embrace Feat, and you will be able to apply Grab and Constrict to all your attacks. Final Embrace requires Constrict. Usually, I get Constrict via 2 levels in White Haired Witch, but if you are a Wild-shaping Druid, you have many forms you can take that have Constrict. Consider being a Saurian Druid, and you can Wild Shape into a Deinosuchus. They have Grab and Constrict, so turning into one qualifies you for Final Embrace. They only get a Bite and a Tail Slap, but they are allowed 2 Bites/round.
That begs the question: If you have Wild Shape, does that de facto give you the Constrict Ability and therefore reaching level 4 Druid automatically qualifies you for Final Embrace, or would you only be able to use Final Embrace while you are actually in the form of an animal that has Constrict?
Big cats get a 2 claw rake on top of their 2 regular claw attacks, so that might be a good choice for a damage grappler.
prototype00 raises the interesting point that you might not be able to Tie Up your opponent if you have no hands with opposable thumbs. That might be the way to go if you are a Monktopus. You should be able to maniuplate ropes just fine with 8 tentacles.
With Armor Spikes, every Grapple Check does AS weapon damage.
I'm not trying to nit-pick, just clarify for my own understanding: when you wild shape, your armor melds into your new form, wouldn't this make armor spikes non-functional?
Scott Wilhelm: I think that last post was the most constructive (and constrictive ... see what I did there?) post that I have seen from you in this thread. I mean it. Good info there.
I would also point out the value of Grabbing Style for Monk. However, it has a deep caveat. First, unlike most other Style Feats, Grabbing Style requires that you have Flurry of Blows if you are getting it via your Monkness. By RAW you could still get it as a bonus feat from Master of Many Styles though I wonder if the designers had it in mind to specifically not allow Monks who forgo the Flurry of Blows ability in favor of another archetype ability to get this feat. My personal opinion is that this IS what was intended, but again... nothing by RAW disallows this. Some DMs may rule otherwise. YMMV
Secondly, if the DM does rule against this you could still get the later feats in the chain through MoMS but it wont matter until you meet the prerequisites for the first feat in the chain and get it as all of the later feats say, "When using Grabbing Style...".
Anyway, these feats aren't strictly required to have an effective grappling build but they do give some interesting options. It is too bad that Body Bludgeon is a Rage Power rather than a feat... Improved Ki Throw is similar but you just don't get the same distance. It also has some odd requirements.
With Armor Spikes, every Grapple Check does AS weapon damage.
I'm not trying to nit-pick, just clarify for my own understanding: when you wild shape, your armor melds into your new form, wouldn't this make armor spikes non-functional?
Yes. What you'd have to do is put the armor on after Wild Shaping.
Acquire a suit of barding made to fit you when you are in the form of an Octopus, Tiger, Triceratops, or whatever, and get it with Spikes. There are rules for armor for unusual creatures. It's even PFS legal: the rules about customizing magic items are all about mixmatching enchantments. I don't think there is any PFS rule against owning +1, Fire Resistant Horn Lamellar armor intended to be worn by a horse, hippogriff, tiger or octopus with +1 Armor Spikes.
It might be a good idea to prevail upon an ally to cast Swift Girding on you. In PFS, I often have my characters carry a Wand of Swift Girding. It's very nice when you have to climb up a cliff or onto a ship and then get into a melee when you are on deck. You can climb with no Armor Check penalty, then fight to establish a bridgehead for the Wizard to Climb up behind you, after dressing you for battle with a Standard Action.
I asked this already, but it was inside a big post. I think it's an important question and should be emphasized.
Final Embrace Requires you to have the Constrict Special Attack. The Wild Shape Class Ability allows you to polymorph into animals with Constrict. Does that mean that (almost) every level 4 Druid automatically meets the prerequisites for Final Embrace, or is there some other special requirement, like they can only use it when they are in one of those animal forms that have Constrict? Once you take Final Embrace, it says that ALL your natural weapons have Grab and Constrict. That seems interesting.
Scott Wilhelm: I think that last post was the most constructive (and constrictive ... see what I did there?) post that I have seen from you in this thread. I mean it. Good info there.
I would also point out the value of Grabbing Style for Monk. However, it has a deep caveat. First, unlike most other Style Feats, Grabbing Style requires that you have Flurry of Blows if you are getting it via your Monkness. By RAW you could still get it as a bonus feat from Master of Many Styles though I wonder if the designers had it in mind to specifically not allow Monks who forgo the Flurry of Blows ability in favor of another archetype ability to get this feat. My personal opinion is that this IS what was intended, but again... nothing by RAW disallows this. Some DMs may rule otherwise. YMMV
Secondly, if the DM does rule against this you could still get the later feats in the chain through MoMS but it wont matter until you meet the prerequisites for the first feat in the chain and get it as all of the later feats say, "When using Grabbing Style...".
Anyway, these feats aren't strictly required to have an effective grappling build but they do give some interesting options. It is too bad that Body Bludgeon is a Rage Power rather than a feat... Improved Ki Throw is similar but you just don't get the same distance. It also has some odd requirements.
With MOMS and Feral Combat Training, you could do things like use your Natural Attacks with Snake Fang, which also means you could initiate Grapples with your Attacks of Opportunity if you had Grab.
You could also take Hamatula Strike and turn your strikes into grapples that way. If your unarmed or natural attack is not piercing, Snake Style can make it piercing.
Another thing to look at is the Cavalier Order of the Hammer, which also gives you good Grappling Options.
Scott: For information on your question, you could read this thread. It starts out on a completely different topic, but then turns to a general issue, as well as the circumstance you inquired about.
Scott: For information on your question, you could read this thread. It starts out on a completely different topic, but then turns to a general issue, as well as the circumstance you inquired about.
It was a good read. From what I gathered from it, being a Druid with Wildshape does meet the Constrict Attack prerequisite for Final Embrace, but can only use it while in a form that has Constrict.
prototype, I've been reading your guide again, and decided to mess around with a nimble guardian. Which has led me to two questions: How would a nimble guardian qualify for Arcane Strike, and are there any huge felines that make the ninth level version of guardian feline at all useful?
I'm having a hard time coming up with any worthwhile damage; large size unarmed damage is better than medium, but having to spend a lot of ability score points on Wisdom (having the ki to pay for the beast shape is a problem with a low Wisdom) really limits the starting Strength.
The damage for Nimble Guardian seems respectable. If you take even 1 level in Ranger or Druid, you might acquire and use a Wand of Strong Jaw. Between transforming into a large Dire Tiger and Strong Jaw, you can pump up your Claw damage by 3 sizes. Gargantuan is pretty good. And with Rake, you get 4 Claw Attacks.
You might consider dipping 2 levels in White Haired Witch. When your Hair gets Constrict, then you can take Final Embrace, and your Claws and bite will get Constrict, too, and double damage will be your new word of the day. After 7 levels in Nimble Guardian, you take your 2 levels in WHW, and get your Constrict on all your attacks, then take your level in Druid or Ranger for the Wand Use. Then you can go back to taking levels in Monk. Your buffed damage for Claw will be 4d6 at level 7 Monk, Level1 Ranger, Level2 White Haired Witch.
If you are using lots of Claw and other Natural Attacks, you might not be interested in Flurry of Blows. Wear Armor with Armor Spikes. Keep a suit of tiger-shaped armor for when you are in tiger form. Nimble Guardians don't get Evasion, you might as well wear Full Plate, especially while in Tiger Form, which only lasts a few minutes. Acquire a Wand of Swift Girding, and prevail up on an ally to use it on you when you transform. Armor Spikes give you bonus damage whenever you make a successful grapple check. They do 1d6 (+bonuses) for medium creatures, but Dire Tigers are large, and so are their Armor Spikes, so 1d8. If you took that level in Ranger, you might cast Lead Blades on your Armor Spikes, and they would do 2d6. And the word of the day is Triple Damage.
You could be a Nimble Guardian Master of Many Styles. Once again, if you are relying on multiple natural attacks from bites, claws, and rakes, you don't need Flurry so much, so get Snake Fang. If your Dex is 16 as a Catfolk, it will still be 14, meaning 3 attacks of opportunity/round + an immediate action strike, which could be your claws with Grab, Constrict, and armor spikes. Snake Style has synergy with your Full Plate Barding. You could also work your way up the Panther Style Tree--you said you were working the high Wisdom which does NOT scale down with size--and get Retaliatory Strikes in addition to those attacks of opportunity. Panther Parry imposes a -2 on those enemy attack rolls, so you have even more synergy. Then there's also things like Dragon Ferocity, which gives you a damage bonus on all those attacks (and constricts, and spikes!). You might also want to take a level in Unarmed Fighter to score 1 more Style Feat early.
I see huge potential for huge damage for Nimble Guardian. I never looked at it before. Thanks.
So Proto, do you have any feat spreads for a Conqueror Ooze build? Also with level spreads? Cause you recommend a lot of feats for the Conqueror Ooze build.
The idea is that instead of wildshaping into a Huge or Gargantuan Dinosaur or something, you change into a Tiny monster like a songbird. With small size and other things, you can get a super high AC. Take Feats like Monkey Shine and levels in the Mouser Swashbuckler Archetype, and you can enter opponents' squares, and get extra bonuses, extra attacks, and special abilities related to Flanking and Dirty Trick.
The base damage scales down with size, but if you take Power Attack or Pirhana Strike and maybe Risky Striker, those things do NOT scale down damage with size. Neither does Sneak Attack Damage. You could take levels in Paladin and do Smite Evil damage.
I haven't statted out a build, yet, but I know something amazing can be made out of it.
And now, your Guide will not be complete without some kind of Tiny build.
Although I don't see what druid adds to it. Or monk, for that matter, beyond a two level dip.
prototype00's builds involve lots of dipping into lots of levels, Druid and Monk for starters, so no problem there.
His guide usually depends upon shapeshifing with Druid Wildshape, but it isn't necessarily limited to it. The Songbird thread mostly calls for shapeshifting with a magic item, but the build works much the same way without it.
The Songbird build is right up prototype00's alley. I like the idea of his guide, and I want to support his efforts to make a good guide.
Informing the OP of this thread was just the thing to do.
I'll see about statting out a build, Avoron, and you will see it.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
First off I want to say thanks Proto, love the guide.
As an avid Druid/Monk fan I have looked over your posts and contributed whenever I can.
I like the Dex based builds for a combination of offense and defense using an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for damage.
You could do a dex based build based around the Huge Air or Fire elemental.
Build:
works like this:
Druid 10 (I love blight druid for this, the build I have is called the Ill Wind), Monk 10
S 10 D 21 C 12 I 12 W 21 Ch 7 Plume kith Aasimar final stats, make sure to do tomes/items to enhance dex/con/wis if final stats can be S 16 (20)/D 32 (38)/C 18/I 12/W 32/Ch 7
Traits – Fates Favored, Magical Knack Druid
Feats – Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, Natural Spell, Shaping Focus, Wpn Focus Slam, FCT, Monastic Legacy, Powerful Shape, Vital Strike line.
High Wisdom give you lots of Strong Jaws to play with.
High Wis plus High Dex plus Huge Air Elemental Form gives you a very high AC and a very high touch AC, grab snake style and max Sense Motive plus Divine Interference to make it difficult to ever hit you. (At 20 with +8 Bracers of Armor you can have an AC of 62 (10 + 14 Dex + 11 Wis + 8 Armor + 5 Deflection + 9 Natural Armor (4 base + Barkskin) + 2 Monk Level + 1 Insight(ioun stone) + 2 luck (jingasa)) meaning the tarrasque needs a nat 20 to hit you. You are also immune to sneak attack, crits and bleeds and have DR 5/- as an elemental.
Saves are great at 14/10/14 base with finals (assuming luckstone, comp bonus and +5 cloak) 26/32/33 plus evasion. Can boost fort save with a +4 con book for more hp as well.
You still get the 12d8 with Strongjaw hits with flurry with a 15’ reach. The real question is because whirlwind says the damage is “when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack” does this mean that FCT and strongjaw make your whirlwind do 12d8 damage as an AoE that can pick up even huge creatures (something elder air elementals can’t do without the giant template applied to them).
(As a Blight Druid anything adjacent to you or in your whirlwind must make a DC 26 fort save or be sickened.)
One of my favorite druid builds was a Bat Shaman 6/Monk 2. Starting with a high dex as a halfling and getting Weapon Finesse, Natural Spell, Piranha Strike and Risky Striker could flurry for 1d2+21 at this level as a diminutive bat.
Animal Soul + Atavism is a great way to get the advanced simple template.
The Primal Mauler build is up with lvl-feat recommendations. By lvl 12, the character has reached a nice peak, so that should be satisfactory for society play.
I'll try to hash out a Crusher when I have a moment.
